On the Mexico and Canada Tariffs

[Uncle Dave]

Because we are the biggest consumer market in the world, by a lot. Why do you think Mexico and Canada caved so quickly?

Im talking about exports.

 

[Uncle Dave]

It’s called Emergency orders. They change agreements when terrorists are allowed through the border

Agree on that up front then vs pull it out afterward.

There was a rapid response clause in the deal we just bypassed.

 

[pronstar]

LMAO

 

[Sandlord]

How about this idea.
Drop all the Tariffs.
1) if any illegal or drugs get through, boom, 6 months of Tariffs.
2) if, during that 6 months any illegals or drugs get through, the clock starts over.

 

[Racey]

LMAO

View attachment 1476079

Absolute morons.

These people couldn't negotiate at the grocery store with a coupon.

 

[Uncle Dave]

How about this idea.
Drop all the Tariffs.
1) if any illegal or drugs get through, boom, 6 months of Tariffs.
2) if, during that 6 months any illegals or drugs get through, the clock starts over.

Canadian aerospace company wants to buy 10 boards from me. I tell them 10K a board.

They say great, I'll take one per month for ten months if you guarantee that price for all 10.

Where does a 6 month deal like that leave them and me?
If we put on tariff so do they, and my price goes up 25%.


They buy from my competition in Germany who can guarantee business continuity.

 

[regor]

Canadian aerospace company wants to buy 10 boards from me. I tell them 10K a board.

They say great, I'll take one per month for ten months if you guarantee that price for all 10.

Where does a 6 month deal like that leave them and me?
If we put on tariff so do they, and my price goes up 25%.


They buy from my competition in Germany who can guarantee business continuity.

What happens to that contract if they go out of business in 3 months?

What happens if they say piss off in 4 months?

That contract would be iron clad?

 

[Uncle Dave]

What happens to that contract if they go out of business in 3 months?

What happens if they say piss off in 4 months?

That contract would be iron clad?

Based on 2 decades of transactions with CAE corp they are approved client up to 500K.

Credit isnt the problem though, the problem is I cant guarantees a price unless Im willing to eat any tariff that might fall out of the sky.

 

[Racey]

Based on 2 decades of transactions with CAE corp they are approved client up to 500K.

Credit isnt the problem though, the problem is I cant guarantees a price unless Im willing to eat any tariff that might fall out of the sky.

Then don't guarantee a price. Problem solved.

If your customers are this fragile you have bigger issues.....

or is this just you creating anecdotes that don't have a history of coming true (like 8 years ago) so you can complain about them?

 

[rcmike]

Tell your customer to tell their government to stop levying tariffs?

 

[brgrcru]

UD
There always has been winners and losers
I’d say we are winning more than losing . Tariffs or not
Lots of us suffered in our life times

I had to , Revaluate decisions I made , either poor or good .sometimes my fault sometimes
Not. The covid policy in California just about cratered my life.

in America you can make the decision on what you need to do . Complain about it
Or figure a way to profit from it .

But to say people in this thread don’t understand. Is pure bullshit .

We all understand what’s at stake . Yes you your business might be affected, negatively.

maybe the business , down the street
Will be affected in a positive way

Always two sides to every story.

Just my .02

 

[Uncle Dave]

Then don't guarantee a price. Problem solved.

If your customers are this fragile you have bigger issues.....

or is this just you creating anecdotes that don't have a history of coming true (like 8 years ago) so you can complain about them?

Then you lose the business.

This is how OEM businesses work. They do not need everything all at once, but make a deal they can fix their price on long term.

Im pointing what the problem is when you dont have a stable structure.

This is already happening I cant guarantee my US customer a price past 30 days.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Tell your customer to tell their government to stop levying tariffs?

They just buy from someplace else that has a structure they can rely on.
You may be able to lock something in with unique functionality, but that is fleeting.

 

[Racey]

Then you lose the business.

This is how OEM businesses work. They do not need everything all at once, but make a deal they can fix their price on.

Im pointing what the problem is when you dont have a stable structure.

This is already happening I cant guarantee my US customer a price past 30 days.

This "but what about me, specifically me?!" mentality is EXACTLY why every fucking piece of legislation is loaded with pork for the last 40-50 years. And ironically the genesis of why we are in the situation we are in where leveraging the threat of tariffs is necessary. Everyone wants a carve out, an exception, a white glove treatment.

I guess if you can't navigate this, then your employer will find someone that will, or they will lose.

Exactly like brgrcru said.

 

[Uncle Dave]

UD
There always has been winners and losers
I’d say we are winning more than losing . Tariffs or not
Lots of us suffered in our life times

I had to , Revaluate decisions I made , either poor or good .sometimes my fault sometimes
Not. The covid policy in California just about cratered my life.

in America you can make the decision on what you need to do . Complain about it
Or figure a way to profit from it .

But to say people in this thread don’t understand. Is pure bullshit .

We all understand what’s at stake . Yes you your business might be affected, negatively.

maybe the business , down the street
Will be affected in a positive way

Always two sides to every story.

Just my .02

The only way to avoid this is downsize here and build there - Id prefer not to do that, but I may have no choice.

I can tell most dont understand it or they wouldn't ask the question they do.

How many guys here have an international business ?

 

[Uncle Dave]

This "but what about me, specifically me?!" mentality is EXACTLY why every fucking piece of legislation is loaded with pork for the last 40-50 years. And ironically the genesis of why we are in the situation we are in where leveraging the threat of tariffs is necessary. Everyone wants a carve out, an exception, a white glove treatment.

I guess if you can't navigate this, then your employer will find someone that will, or they will lose.

Exactly like brgrcru said.

Every US company that does business outside of the US has this problem.

I can navigate it.

 

[regor]

Based on 2 decades of transactions with CAE corp they are approved client up to 500K.

Credit isnt the problem though, the problem is I cant guarantees a price unless Im willing to eat any tariff that might fall out of the sky.

So you've always locked in your price for 10 months or more, regardless of possible increases that may occur due to unforeseen circumstances and have no way out if they do increase?

 

[4Waters]

So you've always locked in your price for 10 months or more, regardless of possible increases that may occur due to unforeseen circumstances and have no way out if they do increase?

If he locked in prices when biden had the prices of shit increasing out of control he can do it under the tariffs.

 

[Uncle Dave]

So you've always locked in your price for 10 months or more, regardless of possible increases that may occur due to unforeseen circumstances and have no way out if they do increase?

Sometimes.
It depends on the deal and who it's with.
Sometimes we'll buy 100% of the parts and build and hold the product and ship on schedule for known entities.
We do this for Tv station chains all around the world, movie studios, and certain medical and military clients.

 

[regor]

Sometimes.
It depends on the deal and who it's with.
Sometimes we'll buy 100% of the parts and build and hold the product and ship on schedule for known entities.
We do this for Tv station chains all around the world, movie studios, and certain medical and military clients.

You've said in the past this company has done well and I applaud them for the foresight to keep money in the reserves. Sounds like this is a perfect example to use some of it and secure that 100K PO.

CAE should be impressed knowing what you're facing and put further trust in you, knowing they can count on you always being there for them.

That's a win Dave!!

 

[Uncle Dave]

If he locked in prices when biden had the prices of shit increasing out of control he can do it under the tariffs.

Biden didnt do me any favors, he didnt take the tariff off trump put on. Fucker was happy to take the money.
He didn't nullify what was supposed to be a 10 year deal overnight either.

You've said in the past this company has done well and I applaud them for the foresight to keep money in the reserves. Sounds like this is a perfect example to use some of it and secure that 100K PO.

Id have to build in tariff into the price or Id lose money and If I do that, I cant win the deal by a 25% margin to begin with.

Im already at a premium because my workers make real money and have health care and matched 401K get bonuses etcetera.

 

[Uncle Dave]

The covid policy in California just about cratered my life.

I sympathize.
Managing through that fucking thing took a decade off my lifespan.

 

[regor]

Id have to build in tariff into the price or Id lose money and If I do that, I cant win the deal by a 25% margin to begin with.

My bad, still have to ship them.

Tough spot.

 

[17 10 Flat]

LMAO

View attachment 1476079

People that believe this are the same one who think the view is a news outlet..

 

[Uncle Dave]

Here's a good one -

My Australian competitor gets to build their product using the same non tariffed chips, but then they can bring the finished product in to the US with no tariff because its " Australian"

 

[4Waters]

Here's a good one -

My Australian competitor get to build their product using the same non tariffed chips, but then they can bring the finished product in to the US with no Tariff because its " Australian"

Order the supplies through an Australian supplier

 

[Uncle Dave]

Order the supplies through an Australian supplier

Tried it on a small order just for snicks. They catch the parts coming in because the part #'s and descriptions.

They don't care about finished product using them.

The structural incentive for me as a manufacturer is to shut down the plant in Grass Valley and build products destined for the US in Australia.

 

[Cray Paper]

We're not going to suck it up - you are. (or the buyers of the goods in this case)

Just like you have been since 2017.

I will suck it and gladly pay more for things made, grown, enginnered and built in the US. 2017 was not that long ago my friend, we need to get back to making things in the US for US consumption.

 

[t&y]

The only way to avoid this is downsize here and build there - Id prefer not to do that, but I may have no choice.

I can tell most dont understand it or they wouldn't ask the question they do.

How many guys here have an international business ?

I've never had an international business. But what I have personally done was order millions of dollars in Lumber for distributions centers back in the day. We are talking over 2 decades ago. Guess what, the cost of that lumber to our distribution center was good for about 3 days. We didn't just throw our hands in the air and say... Well if I can't get a guaranteed price for the next 10 months I'm just not going to buy Lumber.

I get it, your business is not based off of a commodity, but the business model to deal with changing cost of supply has been around long before I was ever in that game and it's still going on today. If you have a customer demanding a price point then you need to adjust your end to cover what you know, based on your years of experience, to cover the ups and downs of supply chain.

Who has a gun to your head forcing you to sell internationally?

 

[Uncle Dave]

I've never had an international business. But what I have personally done was order millions of dollars in Lumber for distributions centers back in the day. We are talking over 2 decades ago. Guess what, the cost of that lumber to our distribution center was good for about 3 days. We didn't just throw our hands in the air and say... Well if I can't get a guaranteed price for the next 10 months I'm just not going to buy Lumber.

I get it, your business is not based off of a commodity, but the business model to deal with changing cost of supply has been around long before I was ever in that game and it's still going on today. If you have a customer demanding a price point then you need to adjust your end to cover what you know, based on your years of experience, to cover the ups and downs of supply chain.

Who has a gun to your head forcing you to sell internationally?

Most small deals arent time and date sensitive like I described but big ones always are.

I used to sell software that aided large scale construction and we introduced "BIM" building information modeling so architectural forms could schedule components like when 600 windows (or a lumber package) arrived, because you dont want it on site and to pay for it until you are ready, but they have a 6 month lead time so you have to order way out and negotiate delivery
Price stability and terms rule the day for things like this.

Building Tv stations is a little like that.

The gun to my head is in the form of having to continually grow to keep up with the cost of doing business and paying poeple more and more year after year.

Once you find and win international business you scale your business to accommodate it - take that away and you have to scale back.

Pretty much every public company you bother to buy stock or invest in your 401K with has some form of Geo based breakdown in revenue.

 

[530RL]

Who has a gun to your head forcing you to sell internationally?

Every single investor in the company who wants exactly what you want in your investment portfolio, annual gains.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I will suck it and gladly pay more for things made, grown, enginnered and built in the US. 2017 was not that long ago my friend, we need to get back to making things in the US for US consumption.

Thing is nothing in these packages that incents anyone to build or expand in the United States.

Where's the loan package to build a semi conductor plant, a guarantee of stable trading deal, a loan package to get construction financed - that shit, the hard shit just isn't there- and its been years. Both guys let us down (so far)

I always buy US whenever possible.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Every single investor in the company who wants exactly what you want in your investment portfolio, annual gains.

Yup.

What do you do with stock that doesnt grow ? You dump that shit.

Being private my shareholder is the owner who wants to see his net worth grow and has little tolerance for failure.

 

[Cray Paper]

We're not going to suck it up - you are. (or the buyers of the goods in this case)

Just like you have been since 2017.

We (me) have been sucking it up since NAFTA in the mid 90's. These trade "agreements" have gutted the middle class in the US as well as US companies. The regulations enforced on US manufacturing in the name of environmental concerns and worker concerns. Yet, in the same breath, we have not and do not enforce these on China, Mexico and any other swinging dick that paid off politicians to sign off on these historically bad for the US trade agreements. At the time we were told these trade agreements would provide the promise of being a " service industry based economy". I heard that a lot in the mid 90's from the bought and paid for US media and Bill Clinton.

Service Industry meant foreign investors on our stock market and managing their money, and to a lesser extent US business owners via middle man association making money off of shit made outside the US in south America or China ( with no equivalent regulations for environmental concerns or labor laws, workers rights etc.) that was imported in to the US and sold at a much cheaper price than US made products. Tell me I am wrong.

I recognized this in the early 90's when I was in my early 20's.

UD, I believe you are older than me, how in the hell can you justify the selling out of American industrial might and sovereignty? Buying cheap products from third world countries and enemies of the US then reselling in my mind is criminal. Free Trade is an absolute joke and anyone that says that is either a full blown idiot, so self centered on their own financial benefit they are not able to see the damage to the US middle class and economy or a flat at liar. Which are you?

 

[Racey]

Most small deals arent time and date sensitive like I described but big ones always are.

I used to sell software that aided large scale construction and we introduced "BIM" building information modeling so architectural forms could schedule components like when 600 windows (or a lumber package) arrived, because you dont want it on site and to pay for it until you are ready, but they have a 6 month lead time so you have to order way out and negotiate delivery
Price stability and terms rule the day for things like this.

Building Tv stations is a little like that.

The gun to my head is in the form of having to continually grow to keep up with the cost of doing business and paying poeple more and more year after year.

Once you find and win international business you scale your business to accommodate it - take that away and you have to scale back.

Pretty much every public company you bother to buy stock or invest in your 401K with has some form of Geo based breakdown in revenue.

Tv stations are dead, if that is your core customer i hope you don't have long before you cash out and retire.


Every cellphone, drone, action camera, has x265 encoding software, every streaming platform online can take these streams and rebroadcast to the entire world.

Just turn on King of the Hammers tomorrow....
This is the future of live broadcast media. Not Tv stations ising rack gear to relay their signals to remotes or broadcast towers.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Tv stations are dead, if that is your core customer i hope you don't have long before you cash out and retire.


Every cellphone, drone, action camera, has x265 encoding software, every streaming platform online can take these streams and rebroadcast to the entire world.

Just turn on King of the Hammers tomorrow....
This is the future of live broadcast media. Not Tv stations ising rack gear to relay their signals to remotes or broadcast towers.

We've been building that remote streaming stuff almost 10 years now, and it's H.265, thats just one encoding format.
(you dont make movies or produce in that format if you need to do anything other than chop it up and deliver it but we can talk about where you use what formats in another thread)

That was one example of a complex customer, one that invests on a large timeline that wants stable pricing.

Where do you think the semiconductors are manufactured for all of this?

We power netflix, hulu, amazon, and pretty much all the streaming services that are the new TV stations.

We ship between 7500 and 10K pieces of kit per month to big and small end users.

 

[Uncle Dave]

We (me) have been sucking it up since NAFTA in the mid 90's. These trade "agreements" have gutted the middle class in the US as well as US companies. The regulations enforced on US manufacturing in the name of environmental concerns and worker concerns. Yet, in the same breath, we have not and do not enforce these on China, Mexico and any other swinging dick that paid off politicians to sign off on these historically bad for the US trade agreements. At the time we were told these trade agreements would provide the promise of being a " service industry based economy". I heard that a lot in the mid 90's from the bought and paid for US media and Bill Clinton.

Service Industry meant foreign investors on our stock market and managing their money, and to a lesser extent US business owners via middle man association making money off of shit made outside the US in south America or China ( with no equivalent regulations for environmental concerns or labor laws, workers rights etc.) that was imported in to the US and sold at a much cheaper price than US made products. Tell me I am wrong.

I recognized this in the early 90's when I was in my early 20's.

UD, I believe you are older than me, how in the hell can you justify the selling out of American industrial might and sovereignty? Buying cheap products from third world countries and enemies of the US then reselling in my mind is criminal. Free Trade is an absolute joke and anyone that says that is either a full blown idiot, so self centered on their own financial benefit they are not able to see the damage to the US middle class and economy or a flat at liar. Which are you?

You clearly dont know who we are or what we do.

We're 100% American designed, made, built and tested - minus the parts we just cant buy in the US because of short sighted politicians.

How many American engineers, manufacturing people. sales and marketing people, buyers, planners, support poeple and do you employ? Whats your payroll?

My competition is china and cheap asian stuff.

Sell out American sovereignty and might?
We are American sovereignty and might, and we're the last men standing in this business thats family owned and operated.

Please tell me about your local and global business, who do you employ, what do you make and sell and to who?
What do you make here? Are you part of the problem ?

ANY RDP'er in the Sacramento area is welcome to come up the hill to Grass Valley for a factory tour to see real American manufacturing and technical leadership.

 

[Racey]

We've been building that remote streaming stuff almost 10 years now, and it's H.265, thats just one encoding format.
(you dont make movies or produce in that format if you need to do anything other than chop it up and deliver it but we can talk about where you use what formats in another thread)

That was one example of a complex customer, one that invests on a large timeline that wants stable pricing.

Where do you think the semiconductors are manufactured for all of this?

We power netflix, hulu, amazon, and pretty much all the streaming services that are the new TV stations.

We ship between 7500 and 10K pieces of kit per month to big and small end users.

Perfect, so the initial anecdote you described is just an edge case.... If we carve out exemptions from major trade policy tools, for every edge case, we end up with no tools and just a big sign facing the world that says "bend us over, we're willing" restrict your markets to us, and we'll open ours wide to you....

That is the entire crux of this.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Perfect, so the initial anecdote you described is just an edge case.... If we carve out exemptions from major trade policy tools, for every edge case, we end up with no tools and just a big sign facing the world that says "bend us over, we're willing" restrict your markets to us, and we'll open ours wide to you....

That is the entire crux of this.

Businesses that build for, and require long term deliveries at stable prices are not edge cases.

Bringing the industry back here so I can buy from it fixes the problem.

Where is the re-shoring?

 

[530RL]

Businesses that build for, and require long term deliveries at stable prices are not edge cases.

Bringing the industry back here so I can buy from it fixes the problem.

Where is the re-shoring?

Everyone keeps blaming the move offshore on the government. In reality business moved supply chains offshore because the American consumer wanted cheaper, faster and better.

Peole say buy American, then off they go to Walmart or the equivalent even though there is a domestically produced version of almost everything they buy. But if they bought the American made version of everything they would end up with a lot less of goods and services and their standard of living would be less.

The consumer did this, not the government. To think the government is going to fix this is going to lead to a lot of frustrated people.

 

[Sandlord]

Companies moved manufacturing offshore to increase profits and benefit shareholders. Nice try.

 

[regor]

Everyone keeps blaming the move offshore on the government. In reality business moved supply chains offshore because the American consumer wanted cheaper, faster and better.

Peole say buy American, then off they go to Walmart or the equivalent even though there is a domestically produced version of almost everything they buy. But if they bought the American made version of everything they would end up with a lot less of goods and services and their standard of living would be less.

The consumer did this, not the government. To think the government is going to fix this is going to lead to a lot of frustrated people.

 

[Racey]

Everyone keeps blaming the move offshore on the government. In reality business moved supply chains offshore because the American consumer wanted cheaper, faster and better.

Peole say buy American, then off they go to Walmart or the equivalent even though there is a domestically produced version of almost everything they buy. But if they bought the American made version of everything they would end up with a lot less of goods and services and their standard of living would be less.

The consumer did this, not the government. To think the government is going to fix this is going to lead to a lot of frustrated people.

Lol, the move offshore came 100% from the government, all of the red tape, regulations, taxes, and complication drove the price and pain of doing business here to a breaking point for many of the durable industries.

 

[lbhsbz]

Lol, the move offshore came 100% from the government, all of the red tape, regulations, taxes, and complication drove the price and pain of doing business here to a breaking point for many of the durable industries.

Its hard to win when the competition plays by a different rulebook

 

[Racey]

Where is the re-shoring?

What industries specifically?

Because under Trump's 1st term there was a good amount of reshoring, and prevention of offshoring.... Just because your specific niche suppliers haven't moved back doesn't mean nobody has or will.

This is a problem that will take a generation to fix, minimum.

Guys like you just keep complaining it's not happening fast enough, where is my stuff, blahhh blahhh blahhh.

You don't get shade tomorrow from a tree that you plant today. It needs water, and time, pruning, and care.

The entire nation needs a culture paradigm shift. We have been running on inertia for decades.

 

[530RL]

Lol, the move offshore came 100% from the government, all of the red tape, regulations, taxes, and complication drove the price and pain of doing business here to a breaking point for many of the durable industries.

Your belief is that global competition, specifically imports from global competitors with lower costs had nothing to do with it? That is an interesting view that discounts competition and free markets.

Most objective individuals would recognize that global competition and more choice for the consumer drove US companies to search for ways to satisfy the customers demands.

 

[Racey]

Your belief is that global competition, specifically imports from global competitors with lower costs had nothing to do with it? That is an interesting view that discounts competition and free markets.

Most objective individuals would recognize that global competition and more choice for the consumer drove US companies to search for ways to satisfy the customers demands.

Hey genius, costs are lower because these 3rd world shit holes can operate businesses much cheaper, because they aren't burdened by the insane rules that get imposed over here. In fact it's just the opposite, they roll out the red carpet and give special privilege to get the foreign capital investments.

We took a short term gain for a long term loss.

There are no free markets in global trade. There is all kinds of imbalance in regulatory structure, subsidation of industry by all governments, restrictive trade practices.

You have spent 10 years talking about these magical free markets that do not exist, they have not existed in your entire lifetime either.

You pretend not to know things that you clearly know. This is why your arguments are boring and stale, and why you have no ability to persuade or influence anyone here.

 

[530RL]

Hey genius, costs are lower because these 3rd world shit holes can operate businesses much cheaper, because they aren't burdened by the insane rules that get imposed over here. In fact it's just the opposite, they roll out the red carpet and give special privilege to get the foreign capital investments.

You pretend not to know things that you clearly know. This is why your arguments are boring and stale, and why you have no ability to persuade or influence anyone here.

The costs in America are due to Americans having a high standard of living and expecting that standard of living to continue. Americans do not want the standard of living that those individuals are willing to experience.

You ever ask yourself why do all the low cost manufacturing shit holes not operate in a free market capitalistic system? Maybe because free market systems result in higher wages and higher standards of living?

Certainly excess regulation and excess government intervention is a part of America's higher costs, but your solution to allow the government even more control over markets is ironically exactly what you blame for the downfall. Your belief that government is 100 percent the problem, and the solution is for the government to lard on more rules and taxes is the solution, is an odd twist of logic.

 

[Racey]

The costs in America are due to Americans having a high standard of living and expecting that standard of living to continue. Americans do not want the standard of living that those individuals are willing to experience.

You ever ask yourself why do all the low cost manufacturing shit holes not operate in a free market capitalistic system? Maybe because free market systems result in higher wages and higher standards of living?

Certainly excess regulation and excess government intervention is a part of America's higher costs, but your solution to allow the government even more control over markets is ironically exactly what you blame for the downfall. Your belief that government is 100 percent the problem, and the solution is for the government to lard on more rules and taxes is the solution, is an odd twist of logic.

Once again, you have a vacuum between your ears.

You cannot see the big picture, you only look at one move.

If a tariff is temporarily placed and threatened as leverage to get the other country to lift one, that is not more government control. That is using the governmental powers to REMOVE controls and free the system up further.

Even the godfather of free markets Adam Smith acknowledged and supported this.

All of this has been explained thousands of times, but you are too deranged understand it. So you just keep coming back like a broken record parroting the same tired bullshit theories.

 

[lbhsbz]

Your belief is that global competition, specifically imports from global competitors with lower costs had nothing to do with it? That is an interesting view that discounts competition and free markets.

Most objective individuals would recognize that global competition and more choice for the consumer drove US companies to search for ways to satisfy the customers demands.

Lets say we have a product that requires manual assembly by a human.

In some 3rd world shithole, it's done on a dirt floor by people wearing sandals in a building that's half fallen down with trash piled everywhere

In the US, It's done in a warehouse who's owners need to pay for annual fire inspections, fire extinguisher servicing, Sexual Harassment training, provide PPE, make sure all the equipment on the floor is UL listed, pay them $20/hr, contribute towards medical insurance, pay for workers comp insurance, insure the business, keep a law firm on retainer, pay rent/property taxes, have an accounting firm or person on staff to deal with taxes, pay OSHA fines when they miss some dumbass rule they didn't know existed, deal with environmental agencies, etc....

How is that even a remotely fair playing field? There is no way that #2 can compete with #1 on price....not even close. And people are cheap and stupid, so don't understand the value in something that's a bit more expensive.....but when product "A" is $3 and product "B" is $40, they don't give a shit how long product "A" lasts because they can buy 13 of them for the price of a single "good one".

Even Mexico is sort of getting on board with some of this....when we moved our caliper plant there, there needed to be meals provided, a health clinic on site, and childcare I believe, amongst other things, all company provided.