DCB flip from the air (different angle)

[Havasu Hangin']

What will be the fix to keep them from jumping the start? If the jockying for position didn't start till after this corner it would have never have become an issue.

Someone almost always jumps the start. Gary will probably correct me, but CRC is a know offender...lol.

I don't think it's an issue with jumping the start as much as it is holding your line. If everyone holds their line relative to the centerline of the lake, usually nobody gets washed down.

 

[CampbellCarl]

What will be the fix to keep them from jumping the start? If the jockying for position didn't start till after this corner it would have never have become an issue.

Make it a timed event and send them off one at a time on 3 minute intervals........................

 

[Why Not]

Sufficient number of grades completed to be able to asses a situation and come to the conclusion that although Tony was left of center, the three that chose to show less regard for the law and go left of him are at fault. Really HH! Hold to the rod!


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[Why Not]

And yes...been to my fair share of drivers meetings! Cheers


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[TBI]

Fucker should have just stayed in the channel where he belongs

 

[Havasu Hangin']

Sufficient number of grades completed to be able to asses a situation and come to the conclusion that although Tony was left of center, the three that chose to show less regard for the law and go left of him are at fault. Really HH! Hold to the rod!

If you look at the start, they are lined up that way- they did not choose to be left, that's just how the pace boat lined them up. Ive been in that lineup- you are deck to deck, and just hoping everyone holds their line straight ahead relative to the centerline. If someone comes over on you (left or right), bad things can happen. The fact that Tony went from right to left, is just salt in the wound.

 

[djunkie]

Make it a timed event and send them off one at a time on 3 minute intervals........................

That's what the shootout is for. This is a poker run. Not a race. But we all know the bragging rights to the first card stop is big to some so it really does turn into a race. I gotta admit, it is fun to watch.

 

[djunkie]

I'm gonna put a petition in at the next town hall meeting to install lanes on that fuckin lake.

 

[throttle]

Ya I read that. How'd they get there? Did the salvage crew do it? They don't raise themselves do they?

I'm gonna just take a guess that the force of the tail walk would have been pretty violent. Maybe like running your truck into a tree. Once the hood and fenders are bent, they do not go back to normal position naturally.

 

[renodaytona]

I'm gonna put a petition in at the next town hall meeting to install lanes on that fuckin lake.

Perfect.

 

[Cajun]

Fucker should have just stayed in the channel where he belongs

Why do you always start shit?

 

[djunkie]

I'm gonna just take a guess that the force of the tail walk would have been pretty violent. Maybe like running your truck into a tree. Once the hood and fenders are bent, they do not go back to normal position naturally.

Hydraulics rams are pretty fucking tough. But I guess anything is possible.

 

[TBI]

Why do you always start shit?

Why do you always argue with reason?

 

[Chipster27]

As an arm chair quarterback I put the blame square on the M35. Why? Well I love the racing aspect of everyone's opinion, but honestly this is nothing more than bragging rights. As such, and Bob Teague stresses it, safety and common sense comes in to play. My perspective is simple. The driver of the M35 did not leave himself an out. He was flat out wrong for following too close and not using common sense. It wasn't a race. Period.

Anyone ever watch the Blue Angels, or any other aerobatic team? Do you think each pilots are watching each other, or are they flying based on the leader. If ANY boat is in front of them, they need to adjust to his movements. It does not look like Tony made an erratic maneuver, he started a sweeper at a point in the lake that would require a turn and two of the other boats followed. The 35 didn't.

I say, driver error, he didn't leave himself enough room for an "out" if he needed it. Operating outside the lines of safety. The rest is the collateral damage caused by his actions/reactions.

Case closed, start cutting checks.

 

[Cajun]

Why do you always argue with reason?

You definitely don't know me very well.

 

[TBI]

Hydraulics rams are pretty fucking tough. But I guess anything is possible.

Perhaps he accidentally hit the up button while trying to hang on?

 

[TBI]

You definitely don't know me very well.

You don't know me at all

 

[throttle]

I have no doubt that passing directly behind the 41 was the major cause of the 35 blowing over, with the hitting the wake and the air moving though the 41. I'm also sure the water force is also playing a part, but the statements about water not compressing doesn't make any sense to me, we're not talking about a solid column of water. Can anyone explain?

The other thread got deleted I think. HH and Froggy had some very good valid educational comments. In short, the boat wants air under it, not water. The boat climbed the wake and roost like it was a waterfall until...

 

[throttle]

Why do you always start shit?

Ice breaker

 

[Ziggy]

I heard someone say there were two rear facing cameras on the 41....that might be interesting to see:hmm

 

[Dan Lorenze]

After watching the video twenty or so times it appears that the M35 driver just didn't have enough control of his boat to complete the left hand turn with the room he had, the blue boat on the far left (closer to opposing traffic had little problem making the turn, avoiding non participating boats and the M41. It does appear that the M41 could've been farther right allowing other boats more room, but only the M35 couldn't adjust. But, I say this only from what I saw in the video.

 

[Chipster27]

The real question is that would that M35 have crashed if he didn't get washed down by the M41? Who knows- all I can do is look at the facts in hand.

Would he have crashed if he had been 300 feet behind the 41 and not 20 feet behind him. He was driving over his head. Tony may have been left of center, but he was more left of center if he crossed Tony L to R. He was not driving from a safe position, period.

I'm gonna put a petition in at the next town hall meeting to install lanes on that fuckin lake.

Can you talk to them about installing mooring posts and parking meters in the channel.

 

[Havasu Hangin']

Would he have crashed if he had been 300 feet behind the 41 and not 20 feet behind him. He was driving over his head. Tony may have been left of center, but he was more left of center if he crossed Tony L to R. He was not driving from a safe position, period.

Tony went from a legal (safe) position to an illegal (unsafe) position, period.

Even if the M35 didn't flip, I'd be pissed if I were the M35 or F32. The fact that he washed down two of his DCB brothers and kept going will make for an interesting regatta...lol.

 

[3queens]

I read on another site this guy was banned on the east side from participating cause of erratic driving
Just:::headscratch:
From videos I would be nervous as hell at those speeds running sxs none pro and like chip said no out for inside guy is :eek


And definitely glad all were ok for such a horrifying crash

 

[Why Not]

I'm gonna put a petition in at the next town hall meeting to install lanes on that fuckin lake.

I nominate HH, do I have a second! Sorry HH, I couldn't resist. I'm out, lol


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[Lavey29]

Well, I am glad they were not seriously injured. The driver or other boat driver error can be debated but I am curious to know if the hull design was a factor also. We all know that DCB's are very fast "lake boats" but really don't venture out into the ocean. They just do not seem to fly straight and level in my opinion when they hit a big swell unlike Skaters, MTI's etc... Does anyone think that the turbulent water that caused the boat to kite like that coupled with the fact (my opinion) that DCB's just don't seem to fly level when they do get out of the water contributed to the crash? I guess the whole true tunnel and mod tunnel center pod deal comes into question again.

 

[djunkie]

Perhaps he accidentally hit the up button while trying to hang on?

Very possible. Or in the heat of the moment when he was crossing wakes he hit the up button instead of down.

 

[throttle]

Moreover, it is possible he was aware of the 3 boats to his port side and made a judicious decision and chose to "jump" the start to make some room. The line the 35 was on, had he not gone over very well could have caused a shit show for the 32 he would have sawn off! Pure inexperience, IMHO. Tres teaches when turning a larger cat at speed, "take a little, give a little back" valuable advice I will never forget. As New said, the boat was driving him at that point, should be the other way around. Most of all, glad everyone is safe and lived to talk about it.

is it possible he knew the other boats were on his port side? is it possible that they were ther to protect a position for a hole shot? And then oncoming traffic caught everyone by suprise?

 

[BajaT]

I am thinking poker racing gonna be different next year....I also think that if you cannot control your vehicle, motorcycle, or vessel you are going to fast for conditions, whether it is rough water, vicinity to other vessels or land....

 

[HighVoltage329]

If there are 3 boats on your left going into a corner, you should leave room for 3 boats in the corner...

 

[Miss Venomous]

Tony has bit of a rep personal opinion, but not this time...

 

[Chipster27]

Tony went from a legal (safe) position to an illegal (unsafe) position, period.

So the two or three to his left were in a safe position...got it.

If the 35 had been 100 yards back...he still would have flipped? I stick with my original position, he was not safety operating the boat. There was a point where a turn was required, at 125+ mph he did not think to anticipate Tony's turn. I'm sure that being from Texas he's familiar with Pilot Rock, poker runs, and spectators. Maybe he should have hung back in a safer position. He's at fault, he PUT HIMSELF in an unsafe position. Darwin failed and this guy will continue to boat.


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[Chipster27]

If there are 3 boats on your left going into a corner, you should leave room for 3 boats in the corner...

Why can't the NASCAR guys figure that out


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[whiteworks]

I have no doubt that passing directly behind the 41 was the major cause of the 35 blowing over, with the hitting the wake and the air moving though the 41. I'm also sure the water force is also playing a part, but the statements about water not compressing doesn't make any sense to me, we're not talking about a solid column of water. Can anyone explain?

it is possible to compress water, but requires forces way beyond what is possible in this situation. think about this way, if you jump off the golden gate bridge, you will go splat instead of splash. water has a relatively low viscosity level, however that viscosity level will react differently depending on the force applied to it. these boats are designed to compress air and use the increased pressure to create lift. if water occupies that same space it will not compress at the same rate which the air does. does this help? if not we can have tom brown go in depth on hydro dynamic theory on a cellular level in a different thread

 

[throttle]

Tony has bit of a rep personal opinion, but not this time...

I truly admire and respect Tony, his work, his professionalism, his abilities and his judgements. It would be my guess, that when he jumped on the throttles, everyone else did too. I have in my own opinion, coalated the stories, the pictures and the videos that I have seen thus far with my own personal knowledge and experience and think the 41 jumped early to get a straighter line down that section of water and unfortunatly he wasnt as far out in front of everyone else as maybe he thought he was. I know he would not have intentionally jepardized his brother DCB owners intentionally. Its just unfortunate for all. Tony as we all know, knows the lake and how it bends very well, no different than more than a handfull of other drivers/owners and crews, hours upon hours of time is spent pre running and testing hardware. I think HH said it, Tony is "the guy" we all like, just seems to be a bummer move this time. Again, just my opinion... not worthy of .02

 

[FreeBird236]

The other thread got deleted I think. HH and Froggy had some very good valid educational comments. In short, the boat wants air under it, not water. The boat climbed the wake and roost like it was a waterfall until...

it is possible to compress water, but requires forces way beyond what is possible in this situation. think about this way, if you jump off the golden gate bridge, you will go splat instead of splash. water has a relatively low viscosity level, however that viscosity level will react differently depending on the force applied to it. these boats are designed to compress air and use the increased pressure to create lift. if water occupies that same space it will not compress at the same rate which the air does. does this help? if not we can have tom brown go in depth on hydro dynamic theory on a cellular level in a different thread

Thanks too both for giving it a shot, just seems to me if it's hard to compress it would lower the lift. I think there's alot of science going on hear..

 

[Havasu Hangin']

So the two or three to his left were in a safe position...got it.

If the 35 had been 100 yards back...he still would have flipped? I stick with my original position, he was not safety operating the boat. There was a point where a turn was required, at 125+ mph he did not think to anticipate Tony's turn. I'm sure that being from Texas he's familiar with Pilot Rock, poker runs, and spectators. Maybe he should have hung back in a safer position. He's at fault, he PUT HIMSELF in an unsafe position. Darwin failed and this guy will continue to boat.


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You Dave's Cry Baby guys are pure comedy! Like I said earier, let's pretend the accident didn't happen. Was Tony's line the legal one? No. Case closed.

The fact that there was an accident behind him is just collateral damage.

 

[Stainless]

How do the helos keep from running into each other?

 

[Havasu Hangin']

I think HH said it, Tony is "the guy" we all like, just seems to be a bummer move this time.

Just like when JT ran wide a couple years ago- that guy is a legend.

Tony is "the man" in my opinion...the guy knows how to drive those boats. However, the last time I checked, he is still human. Shockingly, it looks like he made a mistake (like humans do). Luckily, there was no permanant damage done.

I just hope he fesses up to it. You can't fix mistakes if you don't first admit them. Humility is a rare quality these days.

 

[throttle]

Just like when JT ran wide a couple years ago- that guy is a legend.

Tony is "the man" in my opinion...the guy knows how to drive those boats. However, the last time I checked, he is still human. Shockingly, it looks like he made a mistake (like humans do). Luckily, there was no permanant damage done.

I just hope he fesses up to it. You can't fix mistakes if you don't first admit them. Humility is a rare quality these days.

:tbi

 

[TBI]

How do the helos keep from running into each other?

DCB doesn't make helicopters

 

[Outdrive1]

How do the helos keep from running into each other?

They don't turn around for dropped hats.

 

[RiverDave]

Something I find interesting is people talking about the Tres Martin course like its the cure for cancer..

Out of all the people saying that, who has actually taken it? I took the class privately with Tres and one other student, so I'm fairly sure I would have gotten more out of that class then Your average 15 person class with some guy lowering the bell curve..

That being said, even though I am certified, educated, graduated, and infatuated if you asked me if I had any business in group one in a boat that I have no seat time (or very little) my answer would be absolutely not..

No more business then I would have had before I took the course. Some of you guys are making it sound like you take this course and they hand you a cape at the end of it. Or maybe you can just hit the slalom course in your cat and it's all easy from there on out.. Lol

The reality of it is if you asked several of the drivers that are regarded as "great" a lot of them would strongly disagree with some of Tres's techniques. Personally I don't have an opinion on the subject because I don't have enough big cat experience to tell you one way or the other. I took the class I learned some things, other things I kind of asked myself "who certified him?" I didn't get a cape when the class was over so I just put on my original "I'm a stud" cape that I came with and left it at that.

Would the Tres class helped this guy? For all we know he might have already taken it. Watching that video I think seat time and a little more regard for personal safety would have gone further then the class.
RD

 

[whiteworks]

Thanks too both for giving it a shot, just seems to me if it's hard to compress it would lower the lift. I think there's alot of science going on hear..

I think we can nail this down for you. Lets say you have a Volkswagen beetle that is air tight and the cabin is pressurized, now lets say you stick one fat girl in the VW, the air pressure will raise relative to the volume that the fat girl occupies. Now lets say you stick another fat girl in the VW, once again the cabin pressure will rise even more. So now that we have established this concept, lets go for broke and say you stick 4 fat girls in the VW, once again the cabin pressure will raise relative to the volume that the 4 fat girls occupy, however the introduction of the fourth fat girl proves to increase the pressure to more than the VW is capable of containing and the windows blow out. Now pretend that the VW cabin is the tunnels of the boat, the pressurized air is air being compressed in the tunnels and the 4 fat girls are water introduced into the scenario, the boat will continue to lift due to increased air pressure, the equivalent of the windows blowing out in the VW

 

[Boatfloating]

Would he have crashed if he had been 300 feet behind the 41 and not 20 feet behind him. He was driving over his head. Tony may have been left of center, but he was more left of center if he crossed Tony L to R. He was not driving from a safe position, period.


Can you talk to them about installing mooring posts and parking meters in the channel.

Why should the 35 be 300' behind the 41 if at that point in the lake if they're supposed to do 65 mph and hold their line. In my opinion 2 people messed up that day one driving a 41 and another driving the 35 and one lead to the other. I know Tony has done this poker run many times before so it should come as no surprise to anyone what the rules are but I guess DCB has something to prove on a non-race coarse they can be the 1st one to card stop at any cost.

 

[Canuck 1]

Looks like the 41 initiated a turn, may be a bit tight. DCB 32 made the turn on the line established by the front runner, Roth made the turn on a tighter line than all 4. The 32 is a great example of how to handle finding yourself in a bad situation, i.e. an M35 sailing across a wake on an angle that if he stayed in he likely would have been chopped off. He pulled back on the sticks and avoided the disaster, thank god!


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Seems to me this pic shows 3 boats holding their line and one not. The 41 is at fault here

 

[TBI]

Something I find interesting is people talking about the Tres Martin course like its the cure for cancer..

Out of all the people saying that, who has actually taken it? I took the class privately with Tres and one other student, so I'm fairly sure I would have gotten more out of that class then Your average 15 person class with some guy lowering the bell curve..

That being said, even though I am certified, educated, graduated, and infatuated if you asked me if I had any business in group one in a boat that I have no seat time (or very little) my answer would be absolutely not..

No more business then I would have had before I took the course. Some of you guys are making it sound like you take this course and they hand you a cape at the end of it. Or maybe you can just hit the slalom course in your cat and it's all easy from there on out.. Lol

The reality of it is if you asked several of the drivers that are regarded as "great" a lot of them would strongly disagree with some of Tres's techniques. Personally I don't have an opinion on the subject because I don't have enough big cat experience to tell you one way or the other. I took the class I learned some things, other things I kind of asked myself "who certified him?" I didn't get a cape when the class was over so I just put on my original "I'm a stud" cape that I came with and left it at that.

Would the Tres class helped this guy? For all we know he might have already taken it. Watching that video I think seat time and a little more regard for personal safety would have gone further then the class.
RD

Cape ..... noted

 

[Outdrive1]

Cape ..... noted

Fire up the photoshop.

 

[Stainless]

These 3 or 4 threads are getting big. Wonder how it would be if a Skater or MTI had been in the mix? :skull:

 

[TBI]

Fire up the photoshop.