DCB flip from the air (different angle)

[TBI]

I believe Chad.

The guy that sells Uggs?

 

[Joker]

I said it was a rumor. Heard it third party so put no validity in the statement. I was making a joke out of it.

PM sent.

 

[Nord]

I said it was a rumor. Heard it third party so put no validity in the statement. I was making a joke out of it.

I know you did.

 

[shippingguy]

Maybe a DCB passing us on the way to Needles on Friday afternoon 15' away from my side was normal after reading this as well as their roost entering our boat as they passed us and got in our line? Maybe they can't go to the right or left when there's at least 50 yards on either side? Now it all makes sense.

Off subject, but your right! That was bullshit! The guy had plenty of room and did not have to blow by 15' off your boat and wash you guys out! It was a Friday and NOBODY else but us were on the river! I saw it and that is just reckless and F'd up!!!:thumbsdown Have some commons sense and learn how to drive a boat!:finger BTW it was a white and black and silver M31(may have missed some colors). If you are the owner and you are here you owe Joker a big apology for that dickhead move!

 

[Nord]

The guy that sells Uggs?

Ugg insured the event.

 

[TBI]

Ugg insured the event.

Desert Storm = El Nino Del Norte?

 

[copterzach]

Has anyone heard from the driver of the M35? What is his take on what happened?

 

[Outdrive1]

Has anyone heard from the driver of the M35? What is his take on what happened?

I'd like to know where the new owners took the boat for repair also.

 

[1540RVRCREW]

A ton of money out the window real quick!!:eek

 

[Joker]

Off subject, but your right! That was bullshit! The guy had plenty of room and did not have to blow by 15' off your boat and wash you guys out! It was a Friday and NOBODY else but us were on the river! I saw it and that is just reckless and F'd up!!!:thumbsdown Have some commons sense and learn how to drive a boat!:finger BTW it was a white and black and silver M31(may have missed some colors). If you are the owner and you are here you owe Joker a big apology for that dickhead move!

All I could see was an M31 or 35 and correct on the colors. Money can't buy common sense.:thumbsdown

 

[whiteworks]

Pushing the sticks on borrowed equipment, lovely.

Reason #624 not to loan your boat out

 

[Supercup]

Agree 1000X.

But the ego on some of these clowns doesn't allow that to occur.

Organizers can simply mandate Tres Martin or significant Offshore racing experience to run over 100 mph. If the ego won't let it happen then they shouldn't run in the open class.

The 41 turned left before they needed to and did not take a line respecting the number of boats previously passed (maybe he was looking for a good line over the wakes made by the big boat going north). The 35 failed to maintain his arc and stay on course or turn at all when he needed to. Next time he will come off the sticks and adjust his course.

The guy in the 32 who got watered down did a good job of managing a tough situation and getting slowed and moving off to the right.

Big bummer for the 35 crew, but something they will likely learn from and hopefully share with others allowing everyone to get better and respect those around them. It is a poker run, not a race and they ran it like a race. Just becasue you can't see em doesn't mean they aren't still there. You have to maintain your line and respect those around you.

 

[Outdrive1]

One more thought. The M35 needed to hold HIS line as much as Tony needed too. He cut off the 32 or anyone else behind him. If you can't hold your line then slow enough until its safe.

It's not a race???? Thank God they aren't "racing." People come into corners at different speeds, if you're driving, you need to leave room for the other boats around you, and not run into the guys who don't leave enough room.

New is correct in that aspect.

I'd guess this is the last time we have a cock off for the first card stop.

Was Tony not centerline? Maybe. If so, where was Roth's boat going???

 

[TBI]

I'd like to know where the new owners took the boat for repair also.

Just show me the Carfax

 

[Outdrive1]

Just show me the Carfax

It's in the first post.

 

[KAP]

Another problem (HUGE PROBLEM), Props were "spinning in" (look at the still photos from the other thread). Big power CATS are not fun to turn at speed with inward prop rotation which is why everyone with big power runs outward rotation becuuse when you have that much power you are not worried about grabbing another few MPH by lifting the nose which is what inward prop rotation promotes on most boats, and they turn completly differently and a thousand percent more positively with props turning out.I suspect this is a big part of the reason it wondlt turn, even when you turn the wheel they don't respond well at that speed, under acceleration and spinning in, you have to kind of "stutter turn" them and that takes years of experience to master.

Miracle that no one was killed

Hello New to Boating:

I have redacted some of your unsupported conclusions above because I do not wish to republish such commentary.

Your analysis is almost correct but for leaving out the hull design of the DCB M-35.

I agree with your conclusions on propeller rotation and I also do not want to discuss the theory with people who do not understand hull design. I am no expert but I understand hull design and propeller torque and how it affects a boats disposition.

The M-35 is more a mod-VP design hull...than a true tunnel hull catamaran. Thus, those builders with this hull type...set-up the boats turning the props inward because the hull design does not have the air entrapment qualities of true tunnel cats [co-efficient of lift is reduced due to center pod of hull, height and width of tunnel]. This inward set-up carries the bow to gain lift and speed which was lost due to it's lack of sufficient tunnel compression. The downside to this is...at high speed turning the boat aggressively causes lean and unfavorable conditions. These type of driving requires tremendous experience and hundreds of hours of seat time and knowledge of proper trim in the triple digit realm.

If they turned the props outward the boat would not be able to carry the bow and more than likely push the nose down or it would run really wet and flat. The DCB design already runs very wet and flat so this would be further exacerbated by setting the boats propellers to turn out.

It is also important to note that you cannot tune this bottom by adding more rocker/compression [choose whatever term you want in the end it provides lift]. The boat has a center pod and it cannot be altered in the same fashion as a true tunnel catamaran. Where you simply add more rocker to carry the bow rather than spinning the propellers in which is not the natural rotation for a catamaran hull.

Do not be discouraged I try and stay out of the fray but sometimes people put out information which is incorrect and you are right on point with propeller rotation for a true tunnel catamaran.

Lastly, The true and proper rotation for tunnel hull catamaran with big power is outward.

As for casting blame it is not my position to do so. I happen to know the driver of the M-35 and most of the parties discussed in this incident and they are all performance boaters and quality people.

Therefore, I openly express my thanks to the good Lord for looking over everyone and allowing those involved to go home to their families and loved ones.

Sincerely,

KAP

 

[djunkie]

Oh boy. This should add a few pages now.

 

[djunkie]

On a side note, if both props were turning left would it have helped the m35 turn left with everyone else?

 

[TBI]

It's in the first post.

Can you PM me a link?

 

[Outdrive1]

Can you PM me a link?

Pm sent.

 

[Why Not]

One more thought. The M35 needed to hold HIS line as much as Tony needed too. He cut off the 32 or anyone else behind him. If you can't hold your line then slow enough until its safe.

It's not a race???? Thank God they aren't "racing." People come into corners at different speeds, if you're driving, you need to leave room for the other boats around you, and not run into the guys who don't leave enough room.

New is correct in that aspect.

I'd guess this is the last time we have a cock off for the first card stop.

Was Tony not centerline? Maybe. If so, where was Roth's boat going???

Well stated OD1! For the life of me can't understand how a boat that is slightly left of center, yet had 3 boats left of him is at fault. Moreover, it is possible he was aware of the 3 boats to his port side and made a judicious decision and chose to "jump" the start to make some room. The line the 35 was on, had he not gone over very well could have caused a shit show for the 32 he would have sawn off! Pure inexperience, IMHO. Tres teaches when turning a larger cat at speed, "take a little, give a little back" valuable advice I will never forget. As New said, the boat was driving him at that point, should be the other way around. Most of all, glad everyone is safe and lived to talk about it.

 

[CHAD1]

Look at the boat top left anchored . Staying left would have been interesting

 

[Hammer]

Look at the boat top left anchored . Staying left would have been interesting

That spectator wasn't in the greatest spot either

 

[Why Not]

Look at the boat top left anchored . Staying left would have been interesting

The anchored boat Roth is navigating around, making a nice left turn that matched the line of the 41? I'm guessing that with a 38 Skater and giant PSI power Roth could been out front if he wanted. It appears to me he stayed far enough back to be able to navigate one of the toughest turns heading down river.

 

[CHAD1]

The anchored boat Roth is navigating around, making a nice left turn that matched the line of the 41? I'm guessing that with a 38 Skater and giant PSI power Roth could been out front if he wanted. It appears to me he stayed far enough back to be able to navigate one of the toughest turns heading down river.

Put the 35 back in the middle and there is no room

 

[Why Not]

Put the 35 back in the middle and there is no room

The 35 was running neck and neck with the 41, he would have been far in front of Roth had he negotiated the turn under control. Watch the video and notice how much water is coming off the 35, he was trimmed very high. There's a picture floating around here of the 35 on the trailer, the drives are trimmed extremely positive. I look for it, if anyone else has it, please post it up. It helps make sense of a possibly contributing factor to the boat getting so loose. Just a few simple observations.

 

[Outdrive1]

The 35 was running neck and neck with the 41, he would have been far in front of Roth had he negotiated the turn under control. Watch the video and notice how much water is coming off the 35, he was trimmed very high. There's a picture floating around here of the 35 on the trailer, the drives are trimmed extremely positive. I look for it, if anyone else has it, please post it up. It helps make sense of a possibly contributing factor to the boat getting so loose. Just a few simple observations.

The video shows the spray coming off the 41 is about a third as high as what's coming off the 35. If he couldn't turn it, it's because he was trimmed too high IMO. Ive experienced that in a single motor cat trying to get a number. You get to the point where the steering wheel gives hardly any input. Scary feeling. Seat time would have helped this guy.

 

[FreeBird236]

I have no doubt that passing directly behind the 41 was the major cause of the 35 blowing over, with the hitting the wake and the air moving though the 41. I'm also sure the water force is also playing a part, but the statements about water not compressing doesn't make any sense to me, we're not talking about a solid column of water. Can anyone explain?

 

[CHAD1]

I cant comment on trim position while boat was running but the trim position on the trailer is not where it was while they were under power.

 

[Cajun]

That spectator wasn't in the greatest spot either

You're assuming that's a spectator. The course is an open lake, and I doubt anyone said hey, there's a bunch of boats coming down, move over. Most likely,just a family enjoying a day at the lake.

 

[TBI]

You guys need to figure this out so we can cut some checks :thumbsup

 

[Why Not]

Looks like the 41 initiated a turn, may be a bit tight. DCB 32 made the turn on the line established by the front runner, Roth made the turn on a tighter line than all 4. The 32 is a great example of how to handle finding yourself in a bad situation, i.e. an M35 sailing across a wake on an angle that if he stayed in he likely would have been chopped off. He pulled back on the sticks and avoided the disaster, thank god!


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[djunkie]

"When in doubt, gas it." Guess that phrase isn't always true. Throttling back is a good idea sometimes I guess.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

If it were a "race", then generally if you have three boat lengths on the boat behind you then it's your line to run the way you want to.

 

[TBI]

"When in doubt, gas it." Guess that phrase isn't always true. Throttling back is a good idea sometimes I guess.

Now I can't help but wonder if loud pipes really do save lives?

 

[Havasu Hangin']

The 35 was running neck and neck with the 41, he would have been far in front of Roth had he negotiated the turn under control. Watch the video and notice how much water is coming off the 35, he was trimmed very high. There's a picture floating around here of the 35 on the trailer, the drives are trimmed extremely positive. I look for it, if anyone else has it, please post it up. It helps make sense of a possibly contributing factor to the boat getting so loose. Just a few simple observations.

There's no way the M35 could drive with those drives that high- it was done after the accident.

The bottom line is look at the line the M41 takes- anyone that has ever boated on Havasu, and been through a Desert Storm driver's meeting will tell you that line goes against everything legal and prudent. Even if you take away all the other boats, and it's still a bad line.

It's kinda like making an illegal left turn in a car. Can you do it? Sure.
Will it hurt anyone 99% of the time? Nope.
If you do it at the wrong time can you kill someone? You bet.
The fact that there's someone coming the other way who does not stop in time because they don't know how to drive their car still doesn't take away from the fact that it's an illegal left turn.

I love you Tony- from the guy who has a serious bromance going with you, get your shit together....I'd like to see you live a few more years.

 

[djunkie]

I cant comment on trim position while boat was running but the trim position on the trailer is not where it was while they were under power.

Not disagreeing with you but can you explain why they were up so high? Could the force of landing on the tail end push them up?

 

[TBI]

Maybe he trimmed the drives up while in flight, so that when it landed upside down they would be at the right angle to keep going?

 

[Outdrive1]

You guys need to figure this out so we can cut some checks :thumbsup

200 more posts and you can break out the rubber stamp.

 

[CHAD1]

Maybe everyone can agree there is a lot of room in the middle.

 

[CHAD1]

Not disagreeing with you but can you explain why they were up so high? Could the force of landing on the tail end push them up?

Crazy things happen when switches or solenoids get wet. Ive seen them get stuck up, down and one up and down.

 

[C-2]

You're assuming that's a spectator. The course is an open lake, and I doubt anyone said hey, there's a bunch of boats coming down, move over. Most likely,just a family enjoying a day at the lake.

The area where it happened was still a "slow zone", it does not end until you make that turn. The area also has the highest concentration of safety boats.

I'm sure they knew about the run and were told to move, but most likely refused, gotta get that good shot for FB! Everybody on the lake that day knows about the event - it's why they are there. Several years back a guy who refused to move had to be rotor-washed until he did.

 

[Havasu Hangin']

Not disagreeing with you but can you explain why they were up so high? Could the force of landing on the tail end push them up?

According to Gary:

The pic of the drives when the boat was put on the trailer tells the story.I saw it up close at Verns shop when he pulled the drives and the drive was trimmed so high that he hit the swim platform and bent the aerator tube.The swim platform was his trim stop-once the aerator hit it, it was as high as it would go.

 

[Why Not]

There's no way the M35 could drive with those drives that high- it was done after the accident.

The bottom line is look at the line the M41 takes- anyone that has ever boated on Havasu, and been through a Desert Storm driver's meeting will tell you that line goes against everything legal and prudent. Even if you take away all the other boats, and it's still a bad line.

It's kinda like making an illegal left turn in a car. Can you do it? Sure.
Will it hurt anyone 99% of the time? Nope.
If you do it at the wrong time can you kill someone? You bet.
The fact that there's someone coming the other way who does not stop in time because they don't know how to drive their car still doesn't take away from the fact that it's an illegal left turn.

I love you Tony- from the guy who has a serious bromance going with you, get your shit together.

HH, what you are describing would be like me making an illegal left turn over double yellow lines, having 3 other cars decide I will block traffic for them and compound my "illegal" choice and create a shit show by sneaking into the gas station along side me! You're right, I take it back. The fault clearly lies on me for being a bad example! I've met your type, love those who always want to pass the buck! The real question is, what did we as a society do to make that M35 tail dance at speeds well over 100 endangering his life, his passengers, and those in the 32!


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[djunkie]

According to Gary:

Ya I read that. How'd they get there? Did the salvage crew do it? They don't raise themselves do they?

 

[underpressure]

The area where it happened was still a "slow zone", it does not end until you make that turn. The area also has the highest concentration of safety boats.

I'm sure they knew about the run and were told to move, but most likely refused, gotta get that good shot for FB! Everybody on the lake that day knows about the event - it's why they are there. Several years back a guy who refused to move had to be rotor-washed until he did.

^^^^
I know that guy, very good friend! We still give him crap about it, and he still insists that "it was his right to be there"!

 

[Havasu Hangin']

I've met your type, love those who always want to pass the buck!

What grade are you in? Did you sit through the driver's meeting? I'm not passing the buck- I drive on the right side of the lake.

The real question is that would that M35 have crashed if he didn't get washed down by the M41? Who knows- all I can do is look at the facts in hand.

 

[Havasu Hangin']

Ya I read that. How'd they get there? Did the salvage crew do it? They don't raise themselves do they?

Sounds to me like they were jammed up. Not sure if the rams would give out from landing on it's tail, or the trim motors getting stuck...Vern would have to make that call. If you look at the boat running in the video...they weren't that high- the props wouldn't be in the water.

 

[renodaytona]

What will be the fix to keep them from jumping the start? If the jockying for position didn't start till after this corner it would have never have become an issue.

 

[throttle]

You're assuming that's a spectator. The course is an open lake, and I doubt anyone said hey, there's a bunch of boats coming down, move over. Most likely,just a family enjoying a day at the lake.

This is actually the job of the safety boats. Yes, every possible attempt is made to let everyone know that boats are on the way hard and fast!