Tesla Continues to collapse.

[LargeOrangeFont]

When people do things they shouldn't do and something happens - the very first thing they do is blame the car.

UD

Musk is telling people publicly they can sleep and watch movies behind the wheel with autopilot on. That is like the CEO of Budweiser telling people to have a beer and drive home.

 

[Uncle Dave]

UD,

I think far fewer people would have a problem with it if the guy was honest about the pricing, capability, performance, and availability of the product he produces.

Every single one of those categories has a "*" by it from every manufacturer.

New products like the model 3 are always late - so was the model S when it came out, and the X - all were late. The volt was late.

I think the guy is divisive in the way he came to market and in doing so creates group of people that hate him regardless.

The concept proffered here that because he doesnt work through standard dealer franchises makes the experience worse is laughable- I can't remember when the dealer network did a thing for me or anyone else I know or a local community.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Musk is telling people publicly they can sleep and watch movies behind the wheel with autopilot on. That is like the CEO of Budweiser telling people to have a beer and drive home.

Id like to see the whole context of that quote- zero hedge isnt exactly known for telling the whole truth.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Every single one of those categories has a "*" by it from every manufacturer.

New products like the model 3 are always late - so was the model S when it came out, and the X - all were late. The volt was late.

I think the guy is divisive in the way he came to market and in doing so creates group of people that hate him regardless.

The concept proffered here that because he doesnt work through standard dealer franchises makes the experience worse is laughable- I can't remember when the dealer network did a thing for me or anyone else I know or a local community.

UD

Bypassing the dealer network thing I don't care about. That model may or may not shake itself out.

True the Volt was late but not by years. Also keep in mind however the price didn't jump 30%, and the range didn't drop 30%.

Saying a company has a proven track record of over promising and under delivering, is not an excuse, and as I'm sure you know, is not a good business model.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Id like to see the whole context of that quote- zero hedge isnt exactly known for telling the whole truth.

That is probably fair.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Bypassing the dealer network thing I don't care about. That model may or may not shake itself out.

True the Volt was late but not by years. Also keep in mind however the price didn't jump 30%, and the range didn't drop 30%.

Saying a company has a proven track record of over promising and under delivering, as you know is not a good business model.

By and large teslas meet their range and performance quotes.

The into of the model 3 wasn't years late - the volume expectation is whats late.

You couldn't get a volt for anywhere near sticker for a year and the gen 1 version wouldn't get the mileage claimed if you drove it off the side of the matterhorn.

I agree overpromising and under delivering are bad juju for any business.


UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

By and large teslas meet their range and performance quotes.

The into of the model 3 wasn't years late - the volume expectation is whats late.

You couldn't get a volt for anywhere near sticker for a year and the gen 1 version wouldn't get the mileage claimed if you drove it off the side of the matterhorn.

I agree overpromising and under delivering are bad juju for any business.


UD

Every model Tesla has debuted has been late. Dealer markup is not the same as "Sorry the car you put down a deposit on is gonna cost more than we told you" or "We are not going to make the base model you wanted.. sorry."

Again, if they acted like the boutique electric car company they really are, people would have far fewer issues with them. They come off as if these electric cars are going to solve the worlds problems and this is the electric car for the masses, when they are only trying to solve rich peoples' electric car problems with these upper class luxury vehicles while taking government money to do it.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I dont recall them saying they would solve the worlds problems- only that they would try to make a difference.
Telsa will never be the "econo choice"- thats for the bolt customers.

Agree the base model 3 price was a blunder he stepped into - but to their credit you can buy a base car - but no one wants that they want the loaded car.

If you cant buy the car for sticker what the difference in where the markup goes?
Pretty much all high end cars - Z06's and ZR1's , AMG's, Caddys, Volts when introduced - cost way over sticker Hellcats, Demons,
Few to none of these vehicles go for whats on a window sticker.
Even pickup trucks get jacked up.

I dont see tesla as being much different, but I can go on line and buy it directly and skip the clam jam part with the free bad popcorn.

People have issues with all kinds of things and completely ignore others

- like the fact that a lone Tesla crashed supposedly while on autopilot
- but no one said a thing about the 28 fatalities in the state of cali which is up from last year.

If a single death involved a tesla the media would be all over it.

 

[KENDOG689]

No car should have autopilot.Thats not working out well.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I dont recall them saying they would solve the worlds problems- only that they would try to make a difference.
Telsa will never be the "econo choice"- thats for the bolt customers.

Agree the base model 3 price was a blunder he stepped into - but to their credit you can buy a base car - but no one wants that they want the loaded car.

If you cant buy the car for sticker what the difference in where the markup goes?
Pretty much all high end cars - Z06's and ZR1's , AMG's, Caddys, Volts when introduced - cost way over sticker Hellcats, Demons,
Few to none of these vehicles go for whats on a window sticker.
Even pickup trucks get jacked up.

I dont see tesla as being much different, but I can go on line and buy it directly and skip the clam jam part with the free bad popcorn.

People have issues with all kinds of things and completely ignore others

- like the fact that a lone Tesla crashed supposedly while on autopilot
- but no one said a thing about the 28 fatalities in the state of cali which is up from last year.

If a single death involved a tesla the media would be all over it.

Agreed that it is not the "Econo choice", so why as a country are we giving them money to build cars for the 1%? That is where the angst comes in. Sure we gave GM money, but I can go buy a new Chevy Spark for $17K.

Because buying the car at an inflated price from Tesla you have no options. With ADM, I can shop out of state, other dealers etc and pay less or even NO markup if I put in a deposit. Honestly that is the only part of buying from a dealer that is good.. there is always one that will give you a lower price, the question becomes if it is worth your time to hunt for it.

As far as the autopilot goes, I see the value, but it won't be without its problems. The notion that we can have autopilot and people can watch movies, text or sleep is false. People wont be allowed to do that stuff while driving until there is no steering wheel in a car.

 

[Uncle Dave]

No car should have autopilot.Thats not working out well.

Although I understand where you are coming from - I'm not so sure thats accurate and much depends on what one defines as " autopilot"

Lots define and many call level II automation "autopilot" - and the numbers show that level of capability does in fact increase safety and reduce accidents.

Level 2 automation is stuff like - lane keeping assist, collision mitigation braking, auto distance keeping on cruise, lane departure warnings stuff like that.

The verdict is absolutely in for these features and the results the IIHS have are really conclusive.


UD

 

[ChumpChange]

Anyone with a twitter thinks they're a "journalist" these days.

Fixed it for ya!

15 years ago the CEO of UPRR said that if they couldn't be more profitable than a 3% return the company should liquidated. That is 15 times the profit of SpaceX

I've seen plenty of companies operating with net profit under 3%. They make their money off volume. Wholesale food distribution is notorious for slim margins. Sure it's difficult to have that margin on $20mil in sales but at $1bil, it's making money and affording many people jobs at the same time. But what do I know about businesses.....

 

[Uncle Dave]

Agreed that it is not the "Econo choice", so why as a country are we giving them money to build cars for the 1%? That is where the angst comes in. Sure we gave GM money, but I can go buy a new Chevy Spark for $17K.

Because buying the car at an inflated price from Tesla you have no options. With ADM, I can shop out of state, other dealers etc and pay less or even NO markup if I put in a deposit. Honestly that is the only part of buying from a dealer that is good.. there is always one that will give you a lower price, the question becomes if it is worth your time to hunt for it.

As far as the autopilot goes, I see the value, but it won't be without its problems. The notion that we can have autopilot and people can watch movies, text or sleep is false. People wont be allowed to do that stuff while driving until there is no steering wheel in a car.

A 50-60K car isn't the 1% anymore when F150's go for 70K+. Ford still owes us Billions.

The reason you can go buy a spark at all is because we let them file for bankruptcy and fuck the investors. Something tesla has not done.

Sure you have options- you can by a cheaper version - or not buy the car. Or wait for the market to drop for that model.
With Tesla you are much more likely to get the same deal as the next guy.

Sure you can go buy out of state, and then you may or may not get shitty service from the dealer that didnt get the deal.
Happens all the time. Bitch at the dealer- good luck - GM could care less about you.
They didnt sell you the car the dealer did go bitch to them - oh yeah they don't care because they are guaranteed a franchise.

For sure the tech isnt perfect but what is?

UD

 

[KENDOG689]

Although I understand where you are coming from - I'm not so sure thats accurate and much depends on what one defines as " autopilot"

Lots define and many call level II automation "autopilot" - and the numbers show that level of capability does in fact increase safety and reduce accidents.

Level 2 automation is stuff like - lane keeping assist, collision mitigation braking, auto distance keeping on cruise, lane departure warnings stuff like that.

The verdict is absolutely in for these features and the results the IIHS have are really conclusive.


UD

Respectfully,people need to drive there own cars and keep the electronics till they are stopped.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Respectfully,people need to drive there own cars and keep the electronics till they are stopped.

That'd be dandy if they did that, but they don't.
People can't drive worth a shit, and the electronics help them and you from being a victim of their lack of talent.

Anti lock brakes helps them not rear end you when they look up from their phones, burrito or screaming kid - at the last second. Remember the "horrors" of anti lock brakes? I do.

Collision mitigation braking stops them from rear ending you when they simply don't look up period,

Lots of times it isn't electronics that the problem...
Lane keeping assist helps the gals from veering into your lane while applying makeup on their way to work in the morning.

If I get in a car and the rear view mirror points directly at the drivers face -most likely a woman was the last driver - I've never once seen a man do that.

Totally open to the data showing otherwise, and if the data showed otherwise id be the first guy to say it doesn't work or we shouldn't use it.

Do you have any data to look at?


UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

A 50-60K car isn't the 1% anymore when F150's go for 70K+. Ford still owes us Billions.

The reason you can go buy a spark at all is because we let them file for bankruptcy and fuck the investors. Something tesla has not done.

Sure you have options- you can by a cheaper version - or not buy the car. Or wait for the market to drop for that model.
With Tesla you are much more likely to get the same deal as the next guy.

Sure you can go buy out of state, and then you may or may not get shitty service from the dealer that didnt get the deal.
Happens all the time. Bitch at the dealer- good luck - GM could care less about you.
They didnt sell you the car the dealer did go bitch to them - oh yeah they don't care because they are guaranteed a franchise.

For sure the tech isnt perfect but what is?

UD

Not everyone is buying $70k Raptors or Platinums, or Diesels. The vast majority are not.

Ford owes us billions, yes. And they sell millions of cars per year and have a viable business model. You can’t tell is the the Tesla model is viable long term. GM employed a crap load of people, and even more people and businesses depended on them, but their bankruptcy is another debate.

The other side of the coin is that you think you’ll get good service at a your “Regional Tesla Service Center”? Tesla doesn’t not care about you either after you sign for the car. If they sell as many cars they say they are going to, there will be scaling problems with their dealer and repair infrastructure, and worst of all Tesla is on the hook for those costs, unless they franchise.

But all that is based on them selling so many cars they can just throw money at the problem, which has been their strategy to date, minus the production or sales.

Of course all this goes out the window after they get acquired.

What do you predict is going to happen when the competition heats up, and every manufacturer has a viable luxury electric vehicle? Vehicles they will be able to undercut the costs of Tesla’s offerings with?

 

[Uncle Dave]

No model is sustainable that cant ultimately turn a profit I think we agree on that.
Until that point its not running out of cash that keeps a burning company alive.

I think Id rather deal directly with the factory in every case vs a middleman.

We don't even get the option of dealing directly thanks to franchise laws and the powerful UAW lobby.
Buying a car on line doesn't require a dealership, or a sales guy, or a sales manager to push him to sell you the tru-kote.
You can pay for a lot of expenses when you aren't giving 20 -30 % away to the reseller middlemen.
One needn't go to a dealer for service - Appointed certified third parties will repair them - like they do today.

Real Competition - its inevitable - but it is a long way off. Im still waiting for a viable US prius competitor - Ive been waiting since 97.
Remember everyone saying just wait till GM and Ford start making hybrids - they do and they still can't bet the prius at its own game.

Even if they had the car which they dont - they dont have a coast to coast network of chargers to make a road trip viable. Thats going to take a long time to replicate. They dont have the battery supply or the manufacturing tech - which was the reason the volt with its smallish battery was late (ostensibly)

As it stands the Model S is the only made in America with an aluminum frame and body.

One thing I agree with Bob Lutz on is that the electrification of the auto is a certainty - yet Bob didn't do a hell a lot about his prediction and GM allowed Tesla auto do all the things they could have done and that pisses me off.

UD

 

[KENDOG689]

That'd be dandy if they did that, but they don't.
People can't drive worth a shit, and the electronics help them and you from being a victim of their lack of talent.

Anti lock brakes helps them not rear end you when they look up from their phones, burrito or screaming kid - at the last second. Remember the "horrors" of anti lock brakes? I do.

Collision mitigation braking stops them from rear ending you when they simply don't look up period,

Lots of times it isn't electronics that the problem...
Lane keeping assist helps the gals from veering into your lane while applying makeup on their way to work in the morning.

If I get in a car and the rear view mirror points directly at the drivers face -most likely a woman was the last driver - I've never once seen a man do that.

Totally open to the data showing otherwise, and if the data showed otherwise id be the first guy to say it doesn't work or we shouldn't use it.

Do you have any data to look at?


UD

Wow guess I was lucky driving a vw bug,s10 and all the other trucks that didn't have it.Pre cell phone days.

 

[pronstar]

Wow guess I was lucky driving a vw bug,s10 and all the other trucks that didn't have it.Pre cell phone days.

There are 30,000 people per year who aren’t so lucky.

And back when we were younger, it was closer to 50,000 per year.

Not to mention multiples of those numbers for injuries.
Those are massive numbers no matter how you slice it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[KENDOG689]

There are 30,000 people per year who aren’t so lucky.

And back when we were younger, it was closer to 50,000 per year.

Not to mention multiples of those numbers for injuries.
Those are massive numbers no matter how you slice it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Antilock breaks are great.A computer that tells you your a bad diver?My new truck tells me to look in the back seat to make sure no one is there.Really?This is all the stupidacation of America.

 

[rrrr]

I dont recall them saying they would solve the worlds problems- only that they would try to make a difference.
Telsa will never be the "econo choice"- thats for the bolt customers.

Agree the base model 3 price was a blunder he stepped into - but to their credit you can buy a base car - but no one wants that they want the loaded car.

You missed the announcement by Musk that they will not be building base Model 3s. The $35,000 car no longer exists, only models with two motors (one for cruise, one for performance) and two motor AWD. They will be priced between $60 and $80K.

If you want a base model, they plan to build them three years from now. By then the price will have escalated another 40%. The FTC should object to this, as the people with deposits for $35,000 base models are now victims of a deceptive pricing and delivery scheme.

Musk has again pushed Tesla into a niche market, offering a midsize sedan that costs more than a 5 Series BMW, except the quality and features are nowhere near that of a BMW or C Class Mercedes.

IMO you have to be a special kind of stupid to wait more than two years for a ridiculously expensive car that is a poorly built inconvenient plastic under performing status symbol for insecure nobodies.

Musk is looking like the same sort of genius Bernie Madoff and Kenneth Lay were.

 

[Uncle Dave]

You missed the announcement by Musk that they will not be building base Model 3s. The $35,000 car no longer exists, only models with two motors (one for cruise, one for performance) and two motor AWD. They will be priced between $60 and $80K.

If you want a base model, they plan to build them three years from now. By then the price will have escalated another 40%. The FTC should object to this, as the people with deposits for $35,000 base models are now victims of a deceptive pricing and delivery scheme.

Musk has again pushed Tesla into a niche market, offering a midsize sedan that costs more than a 5 Series BMW, except the quality and features are nowhere near that of a BMW or C Class Mercedes.

IMO you have to be a special kind of stupid to wait more than two years for a ridiculously expensive car that is a poorly built inconvenient plastic under performing status symbol for insecure nobodies.

Musk is looking like the same sort of genius Bernie Madoff and Kenneth Lay were.

Looks like I did miss that.

I wouldnt give anyone money and wait more than 90 days for a car. I think thats stupid

at 60K I wouldn't exactly call it a mass market deal, but certainly not niche and when BMW caddy and Benz delver an all electric car then well see what they are like but for now they dont make anything like an S, and X or a 3 so there is no comparison.


Are you really comparing Musk to Madoff and Lay? thats a bit absurd - neither of these guys ever built anything.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Looks like I did miss that.

I wouldnt give anyone money and wait more than 90 days for a car. I think thats stupid

at 60K I wouldn't exactly call it a mass market deal, but certainly not niche and when BMW caddy and Benz delver an all electric car then well see what they are like but for now they dont make anything like an S, and X or a 3 so there is no comparison.


Are you really comparing Musk to Madoff and Lay? thats a bit absurd - neither of these guys ever built anything.

I will argue ANY all electric car is a niche car right now. I think most people would not totally give up use or ownership of a gas powered vehicle after buying an electric one.

Madoff did build a nice Ponzi scheme but I agree that is not Musk.

 

[Paul65k]

Sure glad I was able to get my $1000 deposit back.............FINALLY!!

 

[Uncle Dave]

Antilock breaks are great.A computer that tells you your a bad diver?My new truck tells me to look in the back seat to make sure no one is there.Really?This is all the stupidacation of America.

I understand where you are coming from, and do not like the computerization of the vehicle or it spying one me.

That said I cant argue with the safety data.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Seems to me the plan is to still deliver it, but prioritize the more profitable versions first.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Sure glad I was able to get my $1000 deposit back.............FINALLY!!

I get it.

Back in the late 90's Pontiac had a supercharged 3.8 Grand Prix that was pretty hot car. The GTP I believe it was called.

it was very hard to find, and I finally found a local guy that would work any kind of deal that wasnt 5K over sticker.

When I walked in the dealership the sales guys were all smoking cigars and had their legs up on the desks and reluctantly allowed me to give them a 3K deposit on a deal that was 3K over sticker for the car.

4 months later no car had shown up and I asked for my money back and got it about 90 days after.

At the time GM blamed it on the canadian production lines.

 

[Uncle Dave]

It interesting what people choose to post in regards to Tesla and what they choose to ignore.

A Camaro SS was racing a BMW M4 when he ran out of talent and rear ended a model 3 with a guy and his family in it.

The collision knocked the model 3 all the way across the freeway into the divider.

Had this have been a gasoline car and had full tank in the back of the car how do you think it might have ended? My guess that any other car would have been a ball of flames.

The model 3 occupants all walked away.

Maybe a computer should have told the SS guy he is a bad driver?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

There are 30,000 people per year who aren’t so lucky.

And back when we were younger, it was closer to 50,000 per year.

Not to mention multiples of those numbers for injuries.
Those are massive numbers no matter how you slice it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

We should ban those assault cars.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

It interesting what people choose to post in regards to Tesla and what they choose to ignore.

A Camaro SS was racing a BMW M4 when he ran out of talent and rear ended a model 3 with a guy and his family in it.

The collision knocked the model 3 all the way across the freeway into the divider.

Had this have been a gasoline car and had full tank in the back of the car how do you think it might have ended? My guess that any other car would have been a ball of flames.

The model 3 occupants all walked away.

Maybe a computer should have told the SS guy he is a bad driver?

View attachment 649948

Doubt it. No modern car has a fuel tank in the back anymore. There have also been a few Teslas that went up in flames because of an accident, so your point is moot, and I don't think that one is any safer than the other. Burning lithium batteries present a whole other problem.

How about this one last week:

Cliff notes: Tesla Crashed - other cars ran into it, and it burst into flames. Driver died.

http://abc7news.com/automotive/fire...es-could-strain-department-resources/3266061/

 

[Uncle Dave]

Poor fucker got hit multiple times!

I think the numbers are pretty clear when it comes to what you are more an less likely to die from a fire in. I think its 5X but thats teslas number - Id trust more in a 3rd party.

The media (and this forum) ignored all the deaths this holiday weekend but focused on a lone tesla crash.

 

[j21black]

I really enjoy reading this thread, and can add zero value to it.

I live in the middle of Bum FK, locals call the town "Slapout" kinda between Montgomery and Birmingham. Someone who is local to me owns a Telsa. I get behind them every now and again. Just an odd spot to run into one.

 

[SBMech]

It interesting what people choose to post in regards to Tesla and what they choose to ignore.

A Camaro SS was racing a BMW M4 when he ran out of talent and rear ended a model 3 with a guy and his family in it.

The collision knocked the model 3 all the way across the freeway into the divider.

Had this have been a gasoline car and had full tank in the back of the car how do you think it might have ended? My guess that any other car would have been a ball of flames.

The model 3 occupants all walked away.

Maybe a computer should have told the SS guy he is a bad driver?

View attachment 649948

Unless they were in a Pinto from the 70's there is a much larger chance of death by fire or burning (acid) from an electric vehicle than there is of a gasoline fire from a collision.

17 Tesla vehicles have had a collision fire since 2013. Nasty stuff those lithium fires.

There have been 7 autopilot crashes, 5 that resulted in death.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Poor fucker got hit multiple times!

I think the numbers are pretty clear when it comes to what you are more an less likely to die from a fire in. I think its 5X but thats teslas number - Id trust more in a 3rd party.

The media (and this forum) ignored all the deaths this holiday weekend but focused on a lone tesla crash.

You can't really trust much Tesla says about their product.. Another theme of this thread. Just like the stupid "savings" calculator on their website.

Are the numbers clear? You are less likely to die in an electric car fire because there are fewer on the road and certainly less data on impacts for them. But if it does catch fire you are pretty much dead.

At least one of the deaths this weekend was in a Tesla. The story I linked was from 5/26. It does not mention if autopilot was on or not. At this point I don't think Teslas are more or less safe than anything else. There are not that many Teslas on the road compared to all other vehicles. So when one on autopilot crashes into something, it is going to get a lot of attention.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Unless they were in a Pinto from the 70's there is a much larger chance of death by fire or burning (acid) from an electric vehicle than there is of a gasoline fire from a collision.

17 Tesla vehicles have had a collision fire since 2013. Nasty stuff those lithium fires.

There have been 7 autopilot crashes, 5 that resulted in death.

Can you source that fire data vis a vis gasoline - Id like to see it.

Statistics are usually per thousand crashes so the total number of vehicles is not really a factor because its crash per crash - and there are more than enough s's around fro the number to be available.


UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Are they clear? You are less likely to die in an electric car fire because there are fewer on the road. But if it does catch fire you are pretty much dead.

At least one of the deaths this weekend was in a Tesla. The story I linked was from 5/26. It does not mention if autopilot was on or not. At this point I don't think Teslas are more or less safe than anything else. There are not that many Teslas on the road compared to all other vehicles. So when one on autopilot crashes into something, it is going to get a lot of attention.

For sure thats whats happening, plus Telsa seems to polarize everyone so people only look for stuff all the way left or right and avoid a balance. Seems once in position few want to move off it.

Reminds me of dealing with Koreans. Its no wonder the war has gone on 40 year.

I think telsa was cleared in about all these cases except the last one is pending.
The guy ended up slamming into an already compressed abutment.
As Han solo would say - That would end your trip real quick.



CR has restate their position to the model 3 being " recommended " after the last update.

This is an interesting and notable statement from CR.

Consumer Reports Auto Test Director Jake Fisher noted that this is the first time he has seen a carmaker improve a vehicle’s braking system through an OTA software update.

“I’ve been at CR for 19 years and tested more than 1,000 cars, and I’ve never seen a car that could improve its track performance with an over-the-air update,” he said.

Of course Elon said this would be the case and until he did it " it was impossible" .

UD

 

[sirbob]

This is starting to look like a tennis match:

Anybody - Elon sucks............................UD - no he doesn't

Anybody - Yes he does!.........................UD - no he doesn't

Anybody - He is an ass......................... UD - your car company sucks

Anybody - He doesn't get it ...................UD - You have no idea what your talking about

Exhausting...

 

[Uncle Dave]

This is starting to look like a tennis match:

Anybody - Elon sucks............................UD - no he doesn't

Anybody - Yes he does!.........................UD - no he doesn't

Anybody - He is an ass......................... UD - your car company sucks

Anybody - He doesn't get it ...................UD - You have no idea what your talking about

Exhausting...

The thing with RDP few want a discussion - they want to be right.

You guys Proffer incomplete quotes and offer little to no 3rd party data, but mostly snippets and opinions.

Then when you guys bitch about gas prices, china and europe eating our lunch, and arabs building ski resorts one the desert we'll all come back here again.

in retrospect I probably should have let a hater thread just be a hater thread.

UD

 

[sirbob]

The thing with RDP few want a discussion - they want to be right.

You guys Proffer incomplete quotes and offer little to no 3rd party data, but mostly snippets and opinions.

Then when you guys bitch about gas prices, china and europe eating our lunch, and arabs building ski resorts one the desert we'll all come back here again.

in retrospect I probably should have let a hater thread just be a hater thread.

UD

Defending the honor ... god love you!

You have more energy than I for that kind of thing!

 

[SBMech]

Can you source that fire data vis a vis gasoline - Id like to see it.

Statistics are usually per thousand crashes so the total number of vehicles is not really a factor because its crash per crash - and there are more than enough s's around fro the number to be available.


UD

EV's make up approx .2% of the total vehicles on the road in service at this point, this guy's response was so good I plaugurised it :

"Tesla fires compared to all other cars or even all electric vehicles on the road vs all others is hard to compare considering the huge number of different factors that come into play. What will a 25 year old Tesla look like for safety? How likely is a 25 year old lithium ion battery to catch fire vs a car from the 80s to catch fire? We don’t quite know yet, so if we compare only 2015 gas cars to 2015 Teslas how many catch fire?

We do not know how likely Teslas and other lithium ion powered EVs are going to be to catch fire when surrounded by other cars at the recycling yard in another 30 years. We simply do not know the wide spread effect of a hurricane in an area with a large variety of electric vehicles catching fire because they were plugged in and the hurricane hit before they could be unplugged.

We do not know because we haven’t had the opportunity to test this type of thing yet. Only time can tell so comparing something that we’ve had in use over the past 100+ years to a new subset of that technology is unfair to the new technology that still needs time to be proven. We know to empty the fluids of non EVs going to the recycling yard, and remove the battery. Those batteries are then handled carefully in bulk and considered a hazard while the rest of the car gets reused a few more times. An EV with a lithium ion battery might pose more recycling challenges and opportunities because of the precious metals that go into the battery.

Only time will tell how likely low quality batteries are to catch fire in mass produced vehicles because as of now we still have sorta high qualityish. Who knows maybe in 2040 your classic Tesla will just explode one day when you plug it in? Probably not but we know how to maintain a gas powered 25 year old car to keep it from doing that and of course there will be some preventative maintenance or replacing the battery, not plugging it in if it hasn’t been charged in X years or -whatever- it ends up being everyone will learn it and it won’t be a big deal if we keep using the technology."

There are no hard stats that I could find, but your are indeed correct, from all apparent data atm, you are 5x more likely to die in a gasoline fire from an accident, but that is really only (IMO) because there is not enough data from ev's and the ev fleet is so tiny and new comparatively to the gasoline/diesel vehicles in service.

I could not find any hard data from the NFPA or the NHTSA about electric vehicle fires, just tidbits.

Lots of gasoline fires occur yearly (270,000 last year recorded 2017), but since the majority of them are based upon mechanical wear or poor/no maintenance, it will be interesting to see how these ev's stack up for longevity vs the gas vehicles as they get older.

In answer to the "hater thread" I do dislike electric vehicles, I make no false pretenses about it, yet this thread has a great deal of information in it.

I certainly have learned much about them that I was unaware of originally.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The thing with RDP few want a discussion - they want to be right.

You guys Proffer incomplete quotes and offer little to no 3rd party data, but mostly snippets and opinions.

Then when you guys bitch about gas prices, china and europe eating our lunch, and arabs building ski resorts one the desert we'll all come back here again.

in retrospect I probably should have let a hater thread just be a hater thread.

UD

I don't really care about any of those things as they are things I have 0 control over. And don't bitch about gas prices. So if Tesla does sell to a foreign car maker, what then?

 

[Wicky]

Antilock breaks are great.A computer that tells you your a bad diver?My new truck tells me to look in the back seat to make sure no one is there.Really?This is all the stupidacation of America.

My first experience with anti lock brakes. First day out, I take my new Dodge up to big bitch hill to climb. I make it almost to the top and then have to back it down. Well my friends, anti lock brakes do NOT work backing down a steep as dirt bump hillclimb. Fucking hairball is the only way to describe that moment when you push the brake pedal down and it does nothing but pulsate. Fuck anti lock brakes.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

“I’ve been at CR for 19 years and tested more than 1,000 cars, and I’ve never seen a car that could improve its track performance with an over-the-air update,” he said.

Of course Elon said this would be the case and until he did it " it was impossible" .

UD

I'm in the tech industry, so this probably impresses me less than most. It is cool that the fix could be installed wirelessly, but there is nothing really exotic about the execution. To be fair, Tesla NEEDS this capability in order to not inundate their service centers, but this is one of the things that will move the industry forward.

There is both good and bad with that type of capability. Your car is now another computer collecting and sending data, and that allows more threat surfaces and vulnerability for hacking and stealing data, or making the car malfunction.

I am not saying it is a problems with Tesla, but going forward it is something we all will have to deal with and be cognizant of, because laws and security wont keep up with the tech.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I don't really care about any of those things as they are things I have 0 control over. And don't bitch about gas prices. So if Tesla does sell to a foreign car maker, what then?

If they sell then the buyer either makes or lose the money going forward and pay his country the taxable gain or suffers the loss.



UD

 

[SBMech]

I'm in the tech industry, so this probably impresses me less than most. It is cool that the fix could be installed wirelessly, but there is nothing really exotic about the execution. To be fair, Tesla NEEDS this capability in order to not inundate their service centers, but this is one of the things that will move the industry forward.

There is both good and bad with that type of capability. Your car is now another computer collecting and sending data, and that allows more threat surfaces and vulnerability for hacking and stealing data, or making the car malfunction.

I am not saying it is a problems with Tesla, but going forward it is something we all will have to deal with and be cognizant of, because laws and security wont keep up with the tech.

Personally I will NEVER buy a vehicle with wireless brakes. That is a non starter for me. Growing up with the birth of computers and the internet makes me fully aware of the risks from using electronics that are updated OTA, not a risk I am willing to take for such a large investment as a new vehicle or my life because some bored kid decides to hack all the OTA vehicles.

Can you imagine if someone hacked OnStar and opened/started every vehicle that is connected to it?

Or conversely killed them all in traffic?

 

[Uncle Dave]

I'm in the tech industry, so this probably impresses me less than most. It is cool that the fix could be installed wirelessly, but there is nothing really exotic about the execution. To be fair, Tesla NEEDS this capability in order to not inundate their service centers, but this is one of the things that will move the industry forward.

There is both good and bad with that type of capability. Your car is now another computer collecting and sending data, and that allows more threat surfaces and vulnerability for hacking and stealing data, or making the car malfunction.

I am not saying it is a problems with Tesla, but going forward it is something we all will have to deal with and be cognizant of, because laws and security wont keep up with the tech.

Is the current domestic inability to do anything close somehow a feature/ benefit?

I detested having to take my titan to the dealer for a brake system brain reflash.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Personally I will NEVER buy a vehicle with wireless brakes. That is a non starter for me. Growing up with the birth of computers and the internet makes me fully aware of the risks from using electronics that are updated OTA, not a risk I am willing to take for such a large investment as a new vehicle or my life because some bored kid decides to hack all the OTA vehicles.

Can you imagine if someone hacked OnStar and opened/started every vehicle that is connected to it?

Or conversely killed them all in traffic?

It doenst have wireless brakes.

Like any hybrid or electric car a computer decides what portion of pedal input goes to electric reg-gen and what goes to mechanical stopping power.

With everyone elses car you go to a dealer to have this tweaked. With a tesla it simply updates wirelessly so you dont have to go to a dealer.

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Is the current domestic inability to do anything close somehow a feature/ benefit?

I detested having to take my titan to the dealer for a brake system brain reflash.

UD

It is all good until you download an update over the air with a bug. That will happen somewhere, sometime, just saying. It is software we are talking about here.

It is annoying when my iPhone randomly resets. If my car randomly resets when I hit the brake that could be a problem.

 

[Uncle Dave]

It is all good until you download an update over the air with a bug. That will happen somewhere, sometime, just saying. It is software we are talking about here.

sure- agreed if you brick the car you are fucked.

This isnt windows 10 though - and it doesn't have to know what 10 year old printer or how to drive an 8 year old open GL board.

As it stands to today Im down half a day at minimum every time I need an update with Nissan or honda.

Ill take my chances on an occasional brick vs a 100% trip to the dealer.

 

[SBMech]

It doenst have wireless brakes.

Like any hybrid or electric car a computer decides what portion of pedal input goes to electric reg-gen and what goes to mechanical stopping power.

With everyone elses car you go to a dealer to have this tweaked. With a tesla it simply updates wirelessly so you dont have to go to a dealer.

UD

I was not implying that Tesla used electronic brakes, I was stating that they are already using them in certain racing/R&D applications, it's coming eventually. Just like drive by wire.