Speed UTV take 3

[RiverDave]

It looks like he ran it out in the dirt for five minutes, just to take this pic!

Sorry Dave, but even the wheel wells looks squeaky clean!

Well I think the reason you guys are used to being dirty instead of dusty is because your shit is slow..

When your out front it just gets dusty.. when your in the back ya get dirty.

 

[RiverDave]

You going to stick with 32" or move up to 35"? Those new Tensor tires look nice. I have good luck with BFGs (KM3 UTV tire).

The brakes are so bad I can’t imagine putting it on 35’s.. lol.

 

[hallett21]

The brakes are so bad I can’t imagine putting it on 35’s.. lol.

Are they just undersized? What’s the fix?

 

[JayBreww]

Well I think the reason you guys are used to being dirty instead of dusty is because your shit is slow..

When your out front it just gets dusty.. when your in the back ya get dirty.

How much dirt did you get from being towed?

 

[rivermobster]

Well I think the reason you guys are used to being dirty instead of dusty is because your shit is slow..

When your out front it just gets dusty.. when your in the back ya get dirty.

I'm sure you are correct.

 

[rivermobster]

Are they just undersized? What’s the fix?

I'm gonna guess the master cylinder bore, is the wrong size for the application. And maybe the hard lines as well, but the master Has to be the main issue. Probably could use some residual valves as well.

Setting up a braking system, from scratch, needs some Serious thought/planing/engineering.

https://www.motor.com/magazine-summ...brake system is,than a manual master cylinder.

 

[McCredie A]

The brakes are so bad I can’t imagine putting it on 35’s.. lol.

Did you do all the adjustments people were recommending? Still not great?

 

[ZSTIV]

Did you do all the adjustments people were recommending? Still not great?

The adjustmnest helped me out. I lock all 4 on pavement.

 

[rivermobster]

The adjustmnest helped me out. I lock all 4 on pavement.

So are you saying Dave doesn't know how to drive?

 

[River Dirt 2]

The brakes are so bad I can’t imagine putting it on 35’s.. lol.

We have had good results from the Tensor 33’s
Personally I think the 35’s are a bit too much for a stock car set up/brakes/power.

 

[dirtracer]

You going to stick with 32" or move up to 35"? Those new Tensor tires look nice. I have good luck with BFGs (KM3 UTV tire).

I agree the new Tensors look great and are lighter than BFG's which will help with adding less unsprung weight when/if you go to 35" tires..

 

[dirtracer]

So are you saying Dave doesn't know how to drive?

Maybe Dave skipped "leg day" at the gym....

 

[RiverDave]

How much dirt did you get from being towed?

A Lot!!

RD

 

[RiverDave]

The adjustmnest helped me out. I lock all 4 on pavement.

You are always by yourself though.. Put a couple fat guys like me in there and I don't think you'd be able to do that.

RD

 

[RiverDave]

Did you do all the adjustments people were recommending? Still not great?

@Fabhouse was the one that originally came up with that with Chad Nelson's car when we were there to check them out.. In a bit of irony no I haven't adjusted it yet, but I will this weekend when I get time.

RD

 

[sandshark1]

The brakes are so bad I can’t imagine putting it on 35’s.. lol.

Just have to allow more time to brake. LOL! They are really that bad?

 

[Fishd00d]

Dave how many miles are on your car now?

 

[RiverDave]

Just have to allow more time to brake. LOL! They are really that bad?

Yes.. they are really that bad. In dirt you can deal, but on the pavement it's actually a bit dangerous..

RD

 

[RiverDave]

Dave how many miles are on your car now?

I haven't looked but somewhere between 600-700? Probably 650'ish

RD

 

[ZSTIV]

You are always by yourself though.. Put a couple fat guys like me in there and I don't think you'd be able to do that.

RD

LOL
Most of the time it is two of us.
but with a very loaded ice chest, so call it 2 1/2 lol

 

[240Hallett]

LOL
Most of the time it is two of us.
but with a very loaded ice chest, so call it 2 1/2 lol

Safety tip… The more you empty the ice chest, the better it stops.

 

[ZSTIV]

Safety tip… The more you empty the ice chest, the better it stops.

Funny you say that, cause that works every time!

 

[riverroyal]

I got a can am email. New Mav R is $7000 discounted. Must have a factory full of them. Maybe the UTV world found the top of the price ceiling. 44K plus accessories is 100% the reason I haven't bought one. The fun vs cost scale is tipped wrong.

 

[PlumLoco]

Polaris and Can Am are both doing .99% financing for 36 months or 4.9% for 84 mo. on ALL models according to the Coyne website.

 

[Deckin Around]

Yes.. they are really that bad. In dirt you can deal, but on the pavement it's actually a bit dangerous..

RD

I remember you saying the Can-Am brakes were that bad on the car you had. About the same?

 

[RiverDave]

Worse

I remember you saying the Can-Am brakes were that bad on the car you had. About the same?

 

[sandshark1]

Polaris and Can Am are both doing .99% financing for 36 months or 4.9% for 84 mo. on ALL models according to the Coyne website.

That time of the year where units sit in dealers when the desert season is over. I bet those finance rates will entice some buyers.

 

[lbhsbz]

Yes.. they are really that bad. In dirt you can deal, but on the pavement it's actually a bit dangerous..

RD

Get a Big Brake Kit. You'd thing for $50K or whatever these cost, they'll have some decent brakes on 'em....guess not.

Willwood Big Brake Kit

Looking for the ultimate brake upgrade for your Speed UTV? Look no further than the Wilwood big brake kit. Designed specifically for the Speed UTV, these brakes employ fixed-mount calipers and larger…

speedutv.com

 

[rivermobster]

Get a Big Brake Kit. You'd thing for $50K or whatever these cost, they'll have some decent brakes on 'em....guess not.

Willwood Big Brake Kit

Looking for the ultimate brake upgrade for your Speed UTV? Look no further than the Wilwood big brake kit. Designed specifically for the Speed UTV, these brakes employ fixed-mount calipers and larger…

speedutv.com

Id bet it has the wrong master and the break pedal ratio is all wrong.

 

[lbhsbz]

Id bet it has the wrong master and the break pedal ratio is all wrong.

The break pedal huh?

 

[rivermobster]

The break pedal huh?

You know as well as I do...

If the ratio is wrong, shit won't work right. Well, I would think you'd know anyways.

Pedal Ratios and How to Find Them

Decades ago, four-wheel drum brakes were standard, power-assisted brakes were an extra-cost option, and depending on how old your project vehicle is, disc brakes may not have even been offered. These days, most new cars and trucks come standard with power disc brakes, even the lowest priced...

shop.wilwood.com

 

[NIKAL]

Id bet it has the wrong master and the break pedal ratio is all wrong.

Correct. The stock master cylinder has to be wrong as there is no way the same master bore is going to work better pushing 24 caliper pistons yet struggle with 8 pistons. Then the peddle motion ratio makes for a longer throw. But three other things besides the master that could be done and greatly improve the braking. 1) a good Simi matalic/ceramic brake pad. The stock pads are just an organic material that gets heat fade really quickly. 2) change out the steel braided brake line that goes from the master all the way to the rear of the chassis, to a solid hard line. The whole car is steel braided brake lines. Also do the same to the front line from the master to where it T’s off to each front wheel. Also need to find out if the braided lines are teflon lined? If not that needs to be done. 3) add a 2 lbs residual valve to the main rear brake line before the T junction going to both rear wheels. Super easy & cheap to do. Maybe even play with adding a 2 lbs to the front to help hold some pressure on the lines. This would firm up the peddle and all of this would cost a small fraction of the Wilwood braking kit.

I might have a Speed master cylinder to check out in a few weeks. Once we know the bore size the rest will be easy to figure out.

 

[rivermobster]

Correct. The stock master cylinder has to be wrong as there is no way the same master bore is going to work better pushing 24 caliper pistons yet struggle with 8 pistons. Then the peddle motion ratio makes for a longer throw. But three other things besides the master that could be done and greatly improve the braking. 1) a good Simi matalic/ceramic brake pad. The stock pads are just an organic material that gets heat fade really quickly. 2) change out the steel braided brake line that goes from the master all the way to the rear of the chassis, to a solid hard line. The whole car is steel braided brake lines. Also do the same to the front line from the master to where it T’s off to each front wheel. Also need to find out if the braided lines are teflon lined? If not that needs to be done. 3) add a 2 lbs residual valve to the main rear brake line before the T junction going to both rear wheels. Super easy & cheap to do. Maybe even play with adding a 2 lbs to the front to help hold some pressure on the lines. This would firm up the peddle and all of this would cost a small fraction of the Wilwood braking kit.

I might have a Speed master cylinder to check out in a few weeks. Once we know the bore size the rest will be easy to figure out.

OMG. No steel lines at all???

You gonna re-plunb with Ni-Cop brake lines? ABS Power Brake in Orange can probably get you the master you need. Ask for Bobby if you don't have your own source.

 

[rivermobster]

@NIKAL

P.S. in case you don't know (but it sounds like you do) Hose Man makes braided lines and does a good job of it.

I had em make new front brake lines for my Harley, in black.

The difference was noticable Instantly.

 

[NIKAL]

OMG. No steel lines at all???

You gonna re-plunb with Ni-Cop brake lines? ABS Power Brake in Orange can probably get you the master you need. Ask for Bobby if you don't have your own source.

It’s just not Speed. Lots of UTV’s have all braided lines. My RZR is all braided lines. I was told the Can Am X3 also had a braided line to the rear, but I can’t confirm as I have not seen a X3 line myself.

The manufacturers use braided lines as it’s much quicker and simpler for them to install. Does not make it right, but it is what it is

 

[NIKAL]

@NIKAL

P.S. in case you don't know (but it sounds like you do) Hose Man makes braided lines and does a good job of it.

I had em make new front brake lines for my Harley, in black.

The difference was noticable Instantly.

I’ve used Kaman Industrial for years for all my hoses. Have friends that worked there. All Aeroquip with reusable fittings on the race cars & prerunners. Also AreoQuip push lock hose & fittings. As far as brake lines, I measure what I want, they supply the line & crimp fittings and crimped for me. It’s the only hoses I don’t build myself due to the crimping.

 

[rivermobster]

I’ve used Kaman Industrial for years for all my hoses. Have friends that worked there. All Aeroquip with reusable fittings on the race cars & prerunners. Also AreoQuip push lock hose & fittings. As far as brake lines, I measure what I want, they supply the line & crimp fittings and crimped for me. It’s the only hoses I don’t build myself due to the crimping.

Exactly. They use a bad azz crimper to crimp brake hose fittings. I watched em make mine. Good stuff!

 

[lbhsbz]

Correct. The stock master cylinder has to be wrong as there is no way the same master bore is going to work better pushing 24 caliper pistons yet struggle with 8 pistons. Then the peddle motion ratio makes for a longer throw. But three other things besides the master that could be done and greatly improve the braking. 1) a good Simi matalic/ceramic brake pad. The stock pads are just an organic material that gets heat fade really quickly. 2) change out the steel braided brake line that goes from the master all the way to the rear of the chassis, to a solid hard line. The whole car is steel braided brake lines. Also do the same to the front line from the master to where it T’s off to each front wheel. Also need to find out if the braided lines are teflon lined? If not that needs to be done. 3) add a 2 lbs residual valve to the main rear brake line before the T junction going to both rear wheels. Super easy & cheap to do. Maybe even play with adding a 2 lbs to the front to help hold some pressure on the lines. This would firm up the peddle and all of this would cost a small fraction of the Wilwood braking kit.

I might have a Speed master cylinder to check out in a few weeks. Once we know the bore size the rest will be easy to figure out.

OK...gonna call it now.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Step one in convincing me you do....spell shit at a 3rd grade level or above.
Step 2, have a wee fucking bit of understanding as to what the fuck you're talking about.
Simi matalic? fuck me.

How do you know what formulation the OE pads are? ...and on the off chance that you do, which you don't, do you have any dyno results to back up your claims? Did you know that there are literally thousands of different friction formulations out there? Did you know that Semi Metallic (note the spelling), Ceramic, and Organic have absolutely fuck all to do with any sort of performance characteristics of said brake (spelled correctly for Mobster) pads?

I don't give a fuck it's a master cylinder is running 1 piston or 100 of them, and that doesn't matter....what matters is the piston surface area per caliper (on a fixed mount opposed piston caliper, we look at only one side of the caliper when calculating this....vs the whole caliper if dealing with a slide pin type caliper). We go from single or 2 piston calipers to 4, 6, or 8 piston calipers all the time and many times could use a smaller master cylinder. Then we balance the master cylinder bore size, the front and rear piston surface areas, the pedal ratio, the rotor effective diameter, and friction compound (to a far lesser extent) to come up with a balanced system, which of course gets all fucked up as soon as everyone bolts another 500lbs of shit to the car because they offered to finance it at the dealer. Takes a significant amount of math and then testing to come up with a functional brake system.

From my perspective...after all of 2 minutes of research, I'd say the first part of the problem is a solid brake rotor on the front of a car that weighs 2500lbs dry and is designed to be driven in a performance manner. They're still stuck on the glorified golf cart mentality, while they should be approaching the braking system from a "hot hatch" automotive mentality, as it is considerably more similar in weight and usage than stuff that uses brakes like they're using now.

If the SS braided lines weren't teflon lined, we'd call them a cable. The only other option is NBR or Viton and brake fluid dissolves both of those. EVERY SS braided brake line is a teflon tube with a SS braided jacket.

It's like everyone learns about tech topic of the day from influencers on youtube anymore.

"Brakes Suck" is not anywhere near enough information to form any sort of conclusion as to WTF is wrong and how to improve it.

 

[Boatymcboatface]

OK...gonna call it now.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Step one in convincing me you do....spell shit at a 3rd grade level or above.
Step 2, have a wee fucking bit of understanding as to what the fuck you're talking about.
Simi matalic? fuck me.

How do you know what formulation the OE pads are? ...and on the off chance that you do, which you don't, do you have any dyno results to back up your claims? Did you know that there are literally thousands of different friction formulations out there? Did you know that Semi Metallic (note the spelling), Ceramic, and Organic have absolutely fuck all to do with any sort of performance characteristics of said brake (spelled correctly for Mobster) pads?

I don't give a fuck it's a master cylinder is running 1 piston or 100 of them, and that doesn't matter....what matters is the piston surface area per caliper (on a fixed mount opposed piston caliper, we look at only one side of the caliper when calculating this....vs the whole caliper if dealing with a slide pin type caliper). We go from single or 2 piston calipers to 4, 6, or 8 piston calipers all the time and many times could use a smaller master cylinder. Then we balance the master cylinder bore size, the front and rear piston surface areas, the pedal ratio, the rotor effective diameter, and friction compound (to a far lesser extent) to come up with a balanced system, which of course gets all fucked up as soon as everyone bolts another 500lbs of shit to the car because they offered to finance it at the dealer. Takes a significant amount of math and then testing to come up with a functional brake system.

From my perspective...after all of 2 minutes of research, I'd say the first part of the problem is a solid brake rotor on the front of a car that weighs 2500lbs dry and is designed to be driven in a performance manner. They're still stuck on the glorified golf cart mentality, while they should be approaching the braking system from a "hot hatch" automotive mentality, as it is considerably more similar in weight and usage than stuff that uses brakes like they're using now.

If the SS braided lines weren't teflon lined, we'd call them a cable. The only other option is NBR or Viton and brake fluid dissolves both of those. EVERY SS braided brake line is a teflon tube with a SS braided jacket.

It's like everyone learns about tech topic of the day from influencers on youtube anymore.

"Brakes Suck" is not anywhere near enough information to form any sort of conclusion as to WTF is wrong and how to improve it.

So did we land on the moon or not?!?

 

[lbhsbz]

So did we land on the moon or not?!?

That's been proven false

 

[rivermobster]

OK...gonna call it now.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Step one in convincing me you do....spell shit at a 3rd grade level or above.
Step 2, have a wee fucking bit of understanding as to what the fuck you're talking about.
Simi matalic? fuck me.

How do you know what formulation the OE pads are? ...and on the off chance that you do, which you don't, do you have any dyno results to back up your claims? Did you know that there are literally thousands of different friction formulations out there? Did you know that Semi Metallic (note the spelling), Ceramic, and Organic have absolutely fuck all to do with any sort of performance characteristics of said brake (spelled correctly for Mobster) pads?

I don't give a fuck it's a master cylinder is running 1 piston or 100 of them, and that doesn't matter....what matters is the piston surface area per caliper (on a fixed mount opposed piston caliper, we look at only one side of the caliper when calculating this....vs the whole caliper if dealing with a slide pin type caliper). We go from single or 2 piston calipers to 4, 6, or 8 piston calipers all the time and many times could use a smaller master cylinder. Then we balance the master cylinder bore size, the front and rear piston surface areas, the pedal ratio, the rotor effective diameter, and friction compound (to a far lesser extent) to come up with a balanced system, which of course gets all fucked up as soon as everyone bolts another 500lbs of shit to the car because they offered to finance it at the dealer. Takes a significant amount of math and then testing to come up with a functional brake system.

From my perspective...after all of 2 minutes of research, I'd say the first part of the problem is a solid brake rotor on the front of a car that weighs 2500lbs dry and is designed to be driven in a performance manner. They're still stuck on the glorified golf cart mentality, while they should be approaching the braking system from a "hot hatch" automotive mentality, as it is considerably more similar in weight and usage than stuff that uses brakes like they're using now.

If the SS braided lines weren't teflon lined, we'd call them a cable. The only other option is NBR or Viton and brake fluid dissolves both of those. EVERY SS braided brake line is a teflon tube with a SS braided jacket.

It's like everyone learns about tech topic of the day from influencers on youtube anymore.

"Brakes Suck" is not anywhere near enough information to form any sort of conclusion as to WTF is wrong and how to improve it.

He's 100 percent correct.

I've INSTALLED enough systems, from scratch, to know how one is supposed to work.

If you don't have enough PRESSURE at the caliper, it doesn't matter What kind of rotor you have! (Or pads)

The fucking thing weighs how much?? It's surely not 8k lb!

It really is a glorified golf cart with some decent suspension.

There can only be so many things that are keeping it from stopping correctly.

It ain't rocket science, no matter how badly you want it to be.

Basics my man. Basics.

 

[lbhsbz]

He's 100 percent correct.

I've INSTALLED enough systems, from scratch, to know how one is supposed to work.

If you don't have enough PRESSURE at the caliper, it doesn't matter What kind of rotor you have! (Or pads)

The fucking thing weighs how much?? It's surely not 8k lb!

It really is a glorified golf cart with some decent suspension.

There can only be so many things that are keeping it from stopping correctly.

It ain't rocket science, no matter how badly you want it to be.

Basics my man. Basics.

If you believe that, you're full of shit too. you have no idea what's wrong. Show me your math if you're so sure of it. What's the master cylinder bore size, the caliper piston sizes, and the rotor effective diameters....let's start there.

 

[rivermobster]

If you believe that, you're full of shit too. you have no idea what's wrong. Show me your math if you're so sure of it. What's the master cylinder bore size, the caliper piston sizes, and the rotor effective diameters....let's start there.

Don't know. I don't one one of those things to have those numbers.

But I know enough about how brake system work to know if it's as bad as Dave says it is...

There is a serious lack of fluid pressure at the caliper.

Why?

Judging from the way the rest of the car behaves, I'd have to say there was a major lack of design engineering put into it!

Diagnosis is always based on the process of elimination.

Id start with a brake pressure gauge if was me.

Where would you start Your diagnosis?

 

[NIKAL]

OK...gonna call it now.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Step one in convincing me you do....spell shit at a 3rd grade level or above.
Step 2, have a wee fucking bit of understanding as to what the fuck you're talking about.
Simi matalic? fuck me.

How do you know what formulation the OE pads are? ...and on the off chance that you do, which you don't, do you have any dyno results to back up your claims? Did you know that there are literally thousands of different friction formulations out there? Did you know that Semi Metallic (note the spelling), Ceramic, and Organic have absolutely fuck all to do with any sort of performance characteristics of said brake (spelled correctly for Mobster) pads?

I don't give a fuck it's a master cylinder is running 1 piston or 100 of them, and that doesn't matter....what matters is the piston surface area per caliper (on a fixed mount opposed piston caliper, we look at only one side of the caliper when calculating this....vs the whole caliper if dealing with a slide pin type caliper). We go from single or 2 piston calipers to 4, 6, or 8 piston calipers all the time and many times could use a smaller master cylinder. Then we balance the master cylinder bore size, the front and rear piston surface areas, the pedal ratio, the rotor effective diameter, and friction compound (to a far lesser extent) to come up with a balanced system, which of course gets all fucked up as soon as everyone bolts another 500lbs of shit to the car because they offered to finance it at the dealer. Takes a significant amount of math and then testing to come up with a functional brake system.

From my perspective...after all of 2 minutes of research, I'd say the first part of the problem is a solid brake rotor on the front of a car that weighs 2500lbs dry and is designed to be driven in a performance manner. They're still stuck on the glorified golf cart mentality, while they should be approaching the braking system from a "hot hatch" automotive mentality, as it is considerably more similar in weight and usage than stuff that uses brakes like they're using now.

If the SS braided lines weren't teflon lined, we'd call them a cable. The only other option is NBR or Viton and brake fluid dissolves both of those. EVERY SS braided brake line is a teflon tube with a SS braided jacket.

It's like everyone learns about tech topic of the day from influencers on youtube anymore.

"Brakes Suck" is not anywhere near enough information to form any sort of conclusion as to WTF is wrong and how to improve it.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I apologize that my spelling triggered you. Regarding the brakes. I don’t claim to be a brake expert, but I talk to allot of knowledgeable people and ask lots of questions. Regarding the Master, it was originally one of the guys at Wilwood that suggested the master needs looking at, as a Speed Engineer told them the master was a sourced UTV part, not something made specifically for the Speed. This is why I’m hoping to see a master and be able to measure the bore size soon. The Wilwood kit for the Speed is the Wilwood caliper, rotor and pads, and Speed supplies or specs the caliper mount, hub spacer, and new wheel studs. This is why you can’t buy the Speed/Wilwood brake kit from Wilwood like you can for other brands. Todd R told me they machine the hub spacers at the machine shop in NC.

Todd R told me the brake pads were organic material. He said the aftermarket can come up with other brake pad material compounds if they want too. But what they offer is it, or you can buy the Wilwood kit. Which BTW guys like Chupacraba and a few others with the Wilwood kit say the improvement is average. Still no where near as good as the stock Polaris Pro R or Turbo R brakes.

Robby had said after a few hard stops the stock brakes fade. He also suggests to change the brake fluid to a better fluid and trim the firewall to give more clearance for the brake pedal arm, then adjust the brake clevis. No one I’ve spoke to knows what type of liner is in the stock brake lines, or the size? The amount of braided line could be causing some of the spongey pedal. No off road Prerunner or race car I have owned or raced in has run this much braided brake line, but like mentioned it seems to be a standard on many UTV’s. I have not seen it personally, but I’m told Max’s race Diablo is hard lined, as is the other full race Speed car they made for a customer.

Since you seem knowledgeable in brakes what’s your opinion of reducing braided brake lines and also adding the residual valves? I know adding the residual valve made a difference on my other off road cars. I wish Chuck Neil was still around as I’d love to have him look it over. Not knowing you or your background is this something you would be interested in figuring out?

 

[lbhsbz]

Don't know. I don't one one of those things to have those numbers.

But I know enough about how brake system work to know if it's as bad as Dave says it is...

There is a serious lack of fluid pressure at the caliper.

Why?

Judging from the way the rest of the car behaves, I'd have to say there was a major lack of design engineering put into it!

Diagnosis is always based on the process of elimination.

Id start with a brake pressure gauge if was me.

Where would you start Your diagnosis?

What if the caliper pistons were simply too small with plenty of fluid pressure? ... or what if something else is fucked up? What if the firewall or whatever the master cylinder is bolted to is flexing? Is there a booster? Is it working? Is it getting enough vacuum to work correctly? Is there a proportioning or pressure regulating valve anywhere in the system? What's that doing? All I know is it ain't right, based on reports.....could be as right as it can get, or could be that it can be improved upon....without DATA....we have no idea.

Diagnosis is based on an understanding of how the system works...not the process of elimination.

I'd start my diagnosis with gathering information about the system (hydraulic sizing, rotor effective diameter, etc) as well as a better understanding of what "brakes suck" means. Then I'd go find a comparable model based on weight and tire OD and look at what they're doing and compare. Based on what I find, I'd either start designing a system from scratch based on the known parameters or move things more towards the system that exists on the comparable model I found to be closest.....Otherwise you're not gonna determine the root problem, and you'll just be guessing at a solution....which might work better, but not the best.

 

[lbhsbz]

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I apologize that my spelling triggered you. Regarding the brakes. I don’t claim to be a brake expert, but I talk to allot of knowledgeable people and ask lots of questions. Regarding the Master, it was originally one of the guys at Wilwood that suggested the master needs looking at, as a Speed Engineer told them the master was a sourced UTV part, not something made specifically for the Speed. This is why I’m hoping to see a master and be able to measure the bore size soon. The Wilwood kit for the Speed is the Wilwood caliper, rotor and pads, and Speed supplies or specs the caliper mount, hub spacer, and new wheel studs. This is why you can’t buy the Speed/Wilwood brake kit from Wilwood like you can for other brands. Todd R told me they machine the hub spacers at the machine shop in NC.

Todd R told me the brake pads were organic material. He said the aftermarket can come up with other brake pad material compounds if they want too. But what they offer is it, or you can buy the Wilwood kit. Which BTW guys like Chupacraba and a few others with the Wilwood kit say the improvement is average. Still no where near as good as the stock Polaris Pro R or Turbo R brakes.

Robby had said after a few hard stops the stock brakes fade. He also suggests to change the brake fluid to a better fluid and trim the firewall to give more clearance for the brake pedal arm, then adjust the brake clevis. No one I’ve spoke to knows what type of liner is in the stock brake lines, or the size? The amount of braided line could be causing some of the spongey pedal. No off road Prerunner or race car I have owned or raced in has run this much braided brake line, but like mentioned it seems to be a standard on many UTV’s. I have not seen it personally, but I’m told Max’s race Diablo is hard lined, as is the other full race Speed car they made for a customer.

Since you seem knowledgeable in brakes what’s your opinion of reducing braided brake lines and also adding the residual valves? I know adding the residual valve made a difference on my other off road cars. I wish Chuck Neil was still around as I’d love to have him look it over. Not knowing you or your background is this something you would be interested in figuring out?

Residual valves are stupid and only a band aid for other problems like shit flexy uprights or undersized hubs and wheel bearings. A properly designed corner shouldn't need a residual valve.

Braided brake lines all have a teflon liner. All flexible lines expand under pressure to a greater extent than hard lines, so it's a contributor, but this thing isn't 20 feet long...so a minor contributor.

What does "fade" mean?....pedal starts to go soft while it was firm when things were cold? Pedal feel stays the same but brake effectiveness degrades? I hate that word because much like "warped" when referring to a pedal vibration...nobody that says it actually knows what it means.

I've never been a fan of anything Wilwood has put out.

Once we have a thorough understanding of

(a) what we're currently working with
(b) what the specific symptoms are
(c) figuring out what contributing factors to those symptoms are

....can we begin to figure out how to fix it.


It may simply not be possible due to packaging constraints.... brakes appear to have been an afterthought in all this, while suspension, hub/upright design, and wheel offset came first. If you don't leave enough room for brakes, you don't get any brakes....pretty simple.

 

[rivermobster]

What if the caliper pistons were simply too small with plenty of fluid pressure?

Diagnosis is based on an understanding of how the system works...not the process of elimination.

I'd start my diagnosis with gathering information about the system (hydraulic sizing, rotor effective diameter, etc) as well as a better understanding of what "brakes suck" means. Otherwise you're not gonna determine the root problem, and you'll just be guessing at a solution....which might work better, but not the best.

I agree here. The system as a whole needs to be looked as well. And like I said earlier...

It's pretty clear (from what Dave is saying) there is a Serious defect Somewhere design wise!

Now...

We have some people saying the adjusted the pushrod, and now it stops Better?

Jezuz, the couldn't even get such a simple step right at the factory???

Your right the system definitely needs to be looked at, design wise for sure.

But if it does have plenty of pressure at the caliper, then maybe it could be a defective pad issue?

Knowing the pressure determines the Next step to be taken.

When you don't Start with the basics, when diagnosing a problem, it's all too easy to overlook a simple fix.

P. S. Brakes HOSES, front to rear, is just DUMB!

Basics brother. Basics.

 

[rivermobster]

Residual valves are stupid and only a band aid for other problems like shit flexy uprights or undersized hubs and wheel bearings. A properly designed corner shouldn't need a residual valve.

Braided brake lines all have a teflon liner. All flexible lines expand under pressure to a greater extent than hard lines, so it's a contributor, but this thing isn't 20 feet long...so a minor contributor.

What does "fade" mean?....pedal starts to go soft while it was firm when things were cold? Pedal feel stays the same but brake effectiveness degrades? I hate that work because much like "warped" when referring to a pedal vibration...nobody that says it actually knows what it means.

I've never been a fan of anything Wilwood has put out.

Once we have a thorough understanding of

(a) what we're currently working with
(b) what the specific symptoms are
(c) figuring out what contributing factors to those symptoms are

....can we begin to figure out how to fix it.


It may simply not be possible due to packaging constraints.... brakes appear to have been an afterthought in all this, while suspension, hub/upright design, and wheel offset came first. If you don't leave enough room for brakes, you don't get any brakes....pretty simple.

Just about every master cylinder made has residual valves built in!

 

[lbhsbz]

Just about every master cylinder made has residual valves built in!

Not since the '60s there Cheif....and yes, I have disassembled EVERY master cylinder used on a production car from 1960 to current (or 2016 or so). Mopar was the about the only ones that stuck with it for a few years after moving to a dual circuit master master (per federal regulations), but realized they were pointless because gravity after it became standard to put the master cylinder on the firewall instead of the frame rail at the same level or below the wheel cylinders.

 

[4Waters]

Get a Big Brake Kit. You'd thing for $50K or whatever these cost, they'll have some decent brakes on 'em....guess not.

Willwood Big Brake Kit

Looking for the ultimate brake upgrade for your Speed UTV? Look no further than the Wilwood big brake kit. Designed specifically for the Speed UTV, these brakes employ fixed-mount calipers and larger…

speedutv.com

I told RD to take the car to Baer Brakes and let them design and build a brake (break) kit for the speed cars, I'd bet they would have cut him a smokin deal.