Speed UTV take 3

[n2otoofast4u]

I see @lbhsbz has his nice guy hat on today!

 

[rivermobster]

Not since the '60s there Cheif....and yes, I have disassembled EVERY master cylinder used on a production car from 1960 to current (or 2016 or so). Mopar was the about the only ones that stuck with it for a few years after moving to a dual circuit master master (per federal regulations), but realized they were pointless because gravity after it became standard to put the master cylinder on the firewall instead of the frame rail at the same level or below the wheel cylinders.

Id disagree, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[lbhsbz]

I told RD to take the car to Baer Brakes and let them design and build a brake (break) kit for the speed cars, I'd bet they would have cut him a smokin deal.

I'm not going to make the offer yet because I don't have any data and haven't had my hands on one of these yet, but I will say that in more than several cases, I've been able to put together brake "kits" for whatever has been brought to me, using OEM parts from existing stuff, modified in some cases for fitment/packaging, for about 1/4 of the price that outperformed some of these Big Brake Kits and still manage to quadruple my money.

If someone wants to bring a speed car over and leave it for a couple weeks, I'm sure I can come up with something better (and no, I won't drive it....I have a thing about driving other peoples shit).

 

[lbhsbz]

Id disagree, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I don't give a shit if you agree or not, you're still wrong. Name a vehicle you think has a residual valve in the master cylinder that was produced in the last 40 years and I'll post either a print of that master cylinder or a teardown picture proving that you're wrong.

 

[rivermobster]

I don't give a shit if you agree or not, you're still wrong. Name a vehicle you think has a residual valve in the master cylinder that was produced in the last 40 years and I'll post either a print of that master cylinder or a teardown picture proving that you're wrong.

Stop trying to change the subject. You're starting to sound like my wife!

 

[lbhsbz]

Stop trying to change the subject. You're starting to sound like my wife!

you changed the subject. I'm calling you out on it.

 

[rivermobster]

you changed the subject. I'm calling you out on it.

I don't have a parts catalog in front of me.

But I do know that every vehicle that has rear drum brakes on it, pretty much Has to have a residual valve IN the master.

Otherwise the pedal would feel like shit due to the nature of the way drum brakes, and the springs, wheel cylinders and sometimes lack of self adjuster movement functions.

Some people just don't back up their cars on a regular basis, and that fails to engage the self adjuster function!

Without a residual valve, in the master, with drum brakes, you would eventually have a pedal that goes to the floor.

But, they actually aren't Always in the master....

Sometimes they are incorporated into the proportion valve.

But you knew all these things, I'm sure.

 

[lbhsbz]

But I do know that every vehicle that has rear drum brakes on it, pretty much Has to have a residual valve IN the master.

Just confirming that you're "sure" you really "know" this before I prove you don't know what you're talking about...


here's your chance to opt out...you only get one.

 

[NIKAL]

I don't give a shit if you agree or not, you're still wrong. Name a vehicle you think has a residual valve in the master cylinder that was produced in the last 40 years and I'll post either a print of that master cylinder or a teardown picture proving that you're wrong.

I don’t know anything about a production master cylinders built for street driven cars. But I know allot still add a inline residual valve in off road buggy’s. Depending on the class of buggy, some run floor mounted pedals, some run hanging pedals, but they will put a residual valve in the rear brake line, typically before the T block in the back.

 

[rivermobster]

Just confirming that your "sure" you really "know" this before I prove you don't know what you're talking about...


here's your chance to opt out...you only get one.

Knock yourself out, if feel you must.

But it still has zero to do with the Speed car! It's just you trying not to loose face.

 

[lbhsbz]

I don’t know anything about a production master cylinders built for street driven cars. But I know allot still add a inline residual valve in off road buggy’s. Depending on the class of buggy, some run floor mounted pedals, some run hanging pedals, but they will put a residual valve in the rear brake line, typically before the T block in the back.

You are correct (rivermobster is as wrong as can be)....but Trophy Trucks and other big time off road shit also take a beating like no other.....they will typically preload bearings 20 times tighter than is normal, and they loosen up....most likely with some contribution of the fact that the level of preload creates more heat than normal and the billet aluminum hubs expand more than steel hubs when they get hot....which should increase the distance between the inner races making the bearings even tighter, which is not good for bearing life, especially when running grease instead of oil, which may contribute to the increased clearance once things cool down. Residual valves are one way to accomodate excessive wheel bearing clearance and the resulting brake rotor deflection (brake rotor goes off plane with the caliper piston faces under hard impact/cornering loads, knocking the pistons back resulting in a long/softer pedal on the next brake application) We can also add springs behind the pistons in an attempt to overcome the seal tension and keep a wee bit of piston preload against the pads. We use conical coil springs in this application....each coil is progressively larger from one end to the other so that when fully compressed, the spring is only as tall as the thickness of the wire it's made out of.....and machine a relief (with a pilot to keep the spring off the cylinder walls) in the back of the piston so that the caliper can still accomodate a full thickness pad. This may not work with a lot of wilwood or wilwood copy calipers (TBM, etc) as they use drawn stainless pistons that don't have enough material thickness to accomodate this. StopTech/Brembo/AP/Alcon use aluminum pistons with considerably more meat on them so that this is possible.

In road race applications, we also run a different drive pin mechanism on a 2 piece rotor. Most "2 piece rotors" are simply that, but have no benefits other than somewhat less expensive replacement rings because the hat/hub doesn't need to be replaced....in these cases (like a lot of Wilwood stuff) the rotors are affixed to the hat/hub with nuts and bolts, and the rotors and hubs both have round holes in them. In a "semi float" 2 piece rotor, the rotor holes are typically slotted...and assembled with what we call a drive pin, which is like a "sex bolt"....effectively a smooth OD pin with a head on it and internal threads that accepts the braking load, with a small SHCS and a bellville washer that goes in the other side to hold the rotor from falling off of the hat. The slotted holes in the rotor ring allow the rotor to expand radially independently of the hat as it get hot....to reduce the "coning" or "belling" effect that would result while heating a one piece rotor. The drive pins are a wee bit longer than the stackup between the rotor and the hat...usually 0.010" or so...and the bellville washer gets crushed about 70% between the head of the SHCS and the end of the drive pin and is solely responsible for keeping tension between the hat and the rotor (we have 8-10 drive pins per assembly). When piston knockback is an issue, we use a flat washer instead of the bellville washer so that the pin is loose....and the rotor can flop around the hat about .010", so when the hub/knuckle deflects, the rotor can stay straight in the caliper. We will use some or all of these to combat piston knockback.

The floating drive pin thing doesn't really work in an off road application because with all the abrasive dust everywhere, you'd wear out hats and rotors and drive pins constantly....so we can't really do that.

Production car engineering and offroad/performance car "engineering" are 2 entirely different things....the later of which many times has nothing to do with engineering at all, but rather fixes in the pits that sort of worked and the teams just ran with it.

I spend more time reading technical articles and SAE articles than I do actually doing anything when it comes to building stuff anymore....and even when I do think I have a firm enough grasp on all the aspects to design and build something that will work correctly....more often than not I bow out because there isn't a clear solution and I don't have the time or $$ for the thousands of hours of R&D to optimize it.

There's always an answer, but you can't always afford it.

 

[4Waters]

My 69 mustang has a residual valve

 

[lbhsbz]

Knock yourself out, if feel you must.

But it still has zero to do with the Speed car! It's just you trying not to loose face.

you're going back on ignore....

 

[rivermobster]

you're going back on ignore....

 

[lbhsbz]

My 69 mustang has a residual valve

That's on the cusp....Once into the '70s, all that shit went away (except the next few years of Mopar...maybe).

We had a couple straglers after the switch to dual circuit (single circuit was easy....they just put a rubber washer and a stamped cup in front of the piston spring....when they went to dual circuit, they had to build the residual valve into the fitting between the tube seat and the cylinder bore...which they couldn't fit in there, so they said fuck it and didn't do it, and realized it worked the same, so gave it up all together.

 

[zhandfull]

You are correct (rivermobster is as wrong as can be)....but Trophy Trucks and other big time off road shit also take a beating like no other.....they will typically preload bearings 20 times tighter than is normal, and they loosen up....most likely with some contribution of the fact that the level of preload creates more heat than normal and the billet aluminum hubs expand more than steel hubs when they get hot....which should increase the distance between the inner races making the bearings even tighter, which is not good for bearing life, especially when running grease instead of oil, which may contribute to the increased clearance once things cool down. Residual valves are one way to accomodate excessive wheel bearing clearance and the resulting brake rotor deflection (brake rotor goes off plane with the caliper piston faces under hard impact/cornering loads, knocking the pistons back resulting in a long/softer pedal on the next brake application) We can also add springs behind the pistons in an attempt to overcome the seal tension and keep a wee bit of piston preload against the pads. We use conical coil springs in this application....each coil is progressively larger from one end to the other so that when fully compressed, the spring is only as tall as the thickness of the wire it's made out of.....and machine a relief (with a pilot to keep the spring off the cylinder walls) in the back of the piston so that the caliper can still accomodate a full thickness pad. This may not work with a lot of wilwood or wilwood copy calipers (TBM, etc) as they use drawn stainless pistons that don't have enough material thickness to accomodate this. StopTech/Brembo/AP/Alcon use aluminum pistons with considerably more meat on them so that this is possible.

In road race applications, we also run a different drive pin mechanism on a 2 piece rotor. Most "2 piece rotors" are simply that, but have no benefits other than somewhat less expensive replacement rings because the hat/hub doesn't need to be replaced....in these cases (like a lot of Wilwood stuff) the rotors are affixed to the hat/hub with nuts and bolts, and the rotors and hubs both have round holes in them. In a "semi float" 2 piece rotor, the rotor holes are typically slotted...and assembled with what we call a drive pin, which is like a "sex bolt"....effectively a smooth OD pin with a head on it and internal threads that accepts the braking load, with a small SHCS and a bellville washer that goes in the other side to hold the rotor from falling off of the hat. The slotted holes in the rotor ring allow the rotor to expand radially independently of the hat as it get hot....to reduce the "coning" or "belling" effect that would result while heating a one piece rotor. The drive pins are a wee bit longer than the stackup between the rotor and the hat...usually 0.010" or so...and the bellville washer gets crushed about 70% between the head of the SHCS and the end of the drive pin and is solely responsible for keeping tension between the hat and the rotor (we have 8-10 drive pins per assembly). When piston knockback is an issue, we use a flat washer instead of the bellville washer so that the pin is loose....and the rotor can flop around the hat about .010", so when the hub/knuckle deflects, the rotor can stay straight in the caliper. We will use some or all of these to combat piston knockback.

The floating drive pin thing doesn't really work in an off road application because with all the abrasive dust everywhere, you'd wear out hats and rotors and drive pins constantly....so we can't really do that.

Production car engineering and offroad/performance car "engineering" are 2 entirely different things....the later of which many times has nothing to do with engineering at all, but rather fixes in the pits that sort of worked and the teams just ran with it.

I spend more time reading technical articles and SAE articles than I do actually doing anything when it comes to building stuff anymore....and even when I do think I have a firm enough grasp on all the aspects to design and build something that will work correctly....more often than not I bow out because there isn't a clear solution and I don't have the time or $$ for the thousands of hours of R&D to optimize it.

There's always an answer, but you can't always afford it.

Damn thats a lot of info! Interesting though.

 

[Bpracing1127]

I wanna know why Dave doesn’t have his speed key? They have been out for a month or so now

 

[sandshark1]

Get a Big Brake Kit. You'd thing for $50K or whatever these cost, they'll have some decent brakes on 'em....guess not.

Willwood Big Brake Kit

Looking for the ultimate brake upgrade for your Speed UTV? Look no further than the Wilwood big brake kit. Designed specifically for the Speed UTV, these brakes employ fixed-mount calipers and larger…

speedutv.com

Speed has a brake kit if you want to drop another $4K or so and get marginal improvement.

 

[NIKAL]

Speed has a brake kit if you want to drop another $4K or so and get marginal improvement.

Go back and read the last dozen posts. We’ve already established that and are talking about other things that are contributing to the less then stellar brakes.

Funny enough I read where the Can Am brakes are supplied by Brembo. If accurate that’s funny as the Can Am’s are known for having less then stellar stock brakes too, as you already know that Shark.

A few years ago the go to for aftermarket Can Am brakes was J.Juan brakes. Lost of Can Am teams like Marc Burnett run J.Jaun’s. There not cheap @ $4500 & up. Then / few years ago Brembo bought J.Juan Brakes.

 

[sandshark1]

Go back and read the last dozen posts. We’ve already established that and are talking about other things that are contributing to the less then stellar brakes.

Funny enough I read where the Can Am brakes are supplied by Brembo. If accurate that’s funny as the Can Am’s are known for having less then stellar stock brakes too, as you already know that Shark.

A few years ago the go to for aftermarket Can Am brakes was J.Juan brakes. Lost of Can Am teams like Marc Burnett run J.Jaun’s. There not cheap @ $4500 & up. Then / few years ago Brembo bought J.Juan Brakes.

For some reason when the thread popped up it did not have all the post that you are referencing.

J.Juan is what comes with the Maverick R. The brakes felt good when I drove my friend's, but still not up to the level of the Pro R.

X3 brakes have a soft feel, but do stop the vehicle. The X3 also does not weigh as much as the current crop of sport UTVs.

 

[rivermobster]

My 69 mustang has a residual valve

Blasphemy.

 

[NIKAL]

Residual valves are stupid and only a band aid for other problems like shit flexy uprights or undersized hubs and wheel bearings. A properly designed corner shouldn't need a residual valve.

Braided brake lines all have a teflon liner. All flexible lines expand under pressure to a greater extent than hard lines, so it's a contributor, but this thing isn't 20 feet long...so a minor contributor.

What does "fade" mean?....pedal starts to go soft while it was firm when things were cold? Pedal feel stays the same but brake effectiveness degrades? I hate that word because much like "warped" when referring to a pedal vibration...nobody that says it actually knows what it means.

I've never been a fan of anything Wilwood has put out.

Once we have a thorough understanding of

(a) what we're currently working with
(b) what the specific symptoms are
(c) figuring out what contributing factors to those symptoms are

....can we begin to figure out how to fix it.


It may simply not be possible due to packaging constraints.... brakes appear to have been an afterthought in all this, while suspension, hub/upright design, and wheel offset came first. If you don't leave enough room for brakes, you don't get any brakes....pretty simple.

FYI a Speed owner posted he measured all the 4 seat chassis brake lines, and in total the El Jefe has 27ft of braided brakes lines. Zero hard lines.

 

[Fishd00d]

FYI a Speed owner posted he measured all the 4 seat chassis brake lines, and in total the El Jefe has 27ft of braided brakes lines. Zero hard lines.

I dont believe my Pro R has any hard lines either and the brakes are awesome.

 

[rivrrts429]

My race car has no hard lines that I can remember. It’s a heavy pig with all the chassis upgrades and still stops decently.

 

[stonehenge]

Has anyone (besides the contest winner) received their speed keys? Asking for a friend.

 

[Bpracing1127]

Has anyone (besides the contest winner) received their speed keys? Asking for a friend.

lol last I heard they are still dealing with the paperwork.

It’s amazing how garage shop and unprofessional this company is.

 

[RiverDave]

I'm not going to make the offer yet because I don't have any data and haven't had my hands on one of these yet, but I will say that in more than several cases, I've been able to put together brake "kits" for whatever has been brought to me, using OEM parts from existing stuff, modified in some cases for fitment/packaging, for about 1/4 of the price that outperformed some of these Big Brake Kits and still manage to quadruple my money.

If someone wants to bring a speed car over and leave it for a couple weeks, I'm sure I can come up with something better (and no, I won't drive it....I have a thing about driving other peoples shit).

Well it's summer time now.. let me know if you want to get your hands on one.. LOL

RD

 

[lbhsbz]

Well it's summer time now.. let me know if you want to get your hands on one.. LOL

RD

Yup.

 

[RiverDave]

On the cooling issue I am hoping this new kit released by Hollander fixes some of the issues..

You can see in the early pics how the fans blow into the shroud and it recycles a lot of hot air.. this “lift kit” puts the radiator and fans etc higher and mates the fans to the shroud.

I think this should help immensely and I wonder why speed didn’t do this from the get go?

 

[JDKRXW]

...and I wonder why speed didn’t do this from the get go?

Noise at passenger ear level?

 

[RiverDave]

Noise at passenger ear level?

The fans aren’t that loud compared to the driveline etc? Besides this only raises it like an inch. Just fills the gap

 

[Fishd00d]

Update on the rally in China that Robby, Max, and someone else just did in 3 Speed cars.

Finished 9,10,11 in class out of 11. The class winner was 33 hours, RG was best of the 3 with 100 hour time.....Ouch.

Wei Han, Neels Theric dominate 2024 Taklimakan Rally - The Checkered Flag

Kove Moto, led by Neels Theric, won nearly every bike stage at their home country's Taklimakan Rally. On the 4-wheel side, Wei Han's Red-Lined was one of the many T1+ cars that shined.

www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk

 

[stonehenge]

Hollander sure does make some cool stuff for these cars! I had no idea so many aftermarket "upgrades" were available, or needed for that matter.

Speed UTV

After market Speed UTV accessories.

hollandermotorsports.com

 

[Bigbore500r]

On the cooling issue I am hoping this new kit released by Hollander fixes some of the issues..

You can see in the early pics how the fans blow into the shroud and it recycles a lot of hot air.. this “lift kit” puts the radiator and fans etc higher and mates the fans to the shroud.

I think this should help immensely and I wonder why speed didn’t do this from the get go?

View attachment 1382654 View attachment 1382655 View attachment 1382656 View attachment 1382657

You wonder why speed didn’t do this from the get go?

I wonder why Speed isn't the one figuring out the problem and fixing it - period!

Seems ridiculous?

 

[rivrrts429]

Update on the rally in China that Robby, Max, and someone else just did in 3 Speed cars.

Finished 9,10,11 in class out of 11. The class winner was 33 hours, RG was best of the 3 with 100 hour time.....Ouch.

Wei Han, Neels Theric dominate 2024 Taklimakan Rally - The Checkered Flag

Kove Moto, led by Neels Theric, won nearly every bike stage at their home country's Taklimakan Rally. On the 4-wheel side, Wei Han's Red-Lined was one of the many T1+ cars that shined.

www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk

My 15 year old daughter asked me if I thought I could win the Baja 1000 again. I told her probably not but I’m confident every time we begin a race.

There are so many factors that come into play when racing an event like this. Months of strategizing beforehand rarely play out like imagined and luck plays a critical part.

You yourself were taken out by a cactus in your last race. Things happen.

We can assemble the best team in the world and yet the environment will determine our outcome. There is no “good job” in racing. It’s only do or do not as Yota says lol

Finishing a race like this is a step in the right direction. I won’t be so critical of their result just yet. They had a rollover and other issues. The finishing order stings but they’ll improve on what they learned.

 

[rivermobster]

My 15 year old daughter asked me if I thought I could win the Baja 1000 again. I told her probably not but I’m confident every time we begin a race.

There are so many factors that come into play when racing an event like this. Months of strategizing beforehand rarely play out like imagined and luck plays a critical part.

You yourself were taken out by a cactus in your last race. Things happen.

We can assemble the best team in the world and yet the environment will determine our outcome. There is no “good job” in racing. It’s only do or do not as Yota says lol

Finishing a race like this is a step in the right direction. I won’t be so critical of their result just yet. They had a rollover and other issues. The finishing order stings but they’ll improve on what they learned.

Personally...

I think he's be better off educating himself on how to deliver a Quality product, that he promised YEARS ago, rather than winning a race in another country.

 

[Romans9]

You wonder why speed didn’t do this from the get go?

I wonder why Speed isn't the one figuring out the problem and fixing it - period!

Seems ridiculous?

Because “Speed” is a Chinese manufacturer.

It’s almost humorous to watch as these problems develop and people asking why.

This is not a hand built by Robby Gordon race car.
RG took his design and handed it off to the Chinese.
RG does not have the manpower to make all these changes or do the research and development.
Speed is caught in a catch 22.

Anyone that understands the Chinese ethos can easily understand why simple things have been overlooked.
I think the whole Speed idea was predicated on the idea that they would be able to sell a large volume and use the excess profit to keep customers happy. The Wal-Mart model of flood the market and then deal with problems.

I’m afraid the slow economy and the lack of discretionary spending is hurting Speed.
Hopefully the aftermarket can respond fast enough to keep people engaged in the Speed idea. The problem with that however is the very small market that Speed represents and if manufacturers will commit to develop for such a small market share.

 

[rivrrts429]

Personally...

I think he's be better off educating himself on how to deliver a Quality product, that he promised YEARS ago, rather than winning a race in another country.

The market will dictate Speeds path. Not you or I who aren’t in the market for a Speed car.

 

[Groper]

Hollander sure does make some cool stuff for these cars! I had no idea so many aftermarket "upgrades" were available, or needed for that matter.

Speed UTV

After market Speed UTV accessories.

hollandermotorsports.com

This "needed" ^^^^ remember these SPEEDUTV's were out the box perfect and needed zero add-on's, I can't believe you have to replace so many worn suspension parts after 500+ miles
I posted my El Diablo for sale yesterday and sold it this morning.
There are people that will take what they get and deal with it, i'm too old to deal with so many issues.
I talked to a guy yesterday that's on his 3rd motor, his car is still in the shop
I wish them well.

 

[rivermobster]

The market will dictate Speeds path. Not you or I who aren’t in the market for a Speed car.

Absolutely.

 

[rivermobster]

This "needed" ^^^^ remember these SPEEDUTV's were out the box perfect and needed zero add-on's, I can't believe you have to replace so many worn suspension parts after 500+ miles
I posted my El Diablo for sale yesterday and sold it this morning.
There are people that will take what they get and deal with it, i'm too old to deal with so many issues.
I talked to a guy yesterday that's on his 3rd motor, his car is still in the shop
I wish them well.

Where did you post it at???

My buddy wants to get rid of his. Thanks!

 

[Warlock1]

I wonder who is going to be the first to swap in a different power plant???

 

[NIKAL]

This "needed" ^^^^ remember these SPEEDUTV's were out the box perfect and needed zero add-on's, I can't believe you have to replace so many worn suspension parts after 500+ miles
I posted my El Diablo for sale yesterday and sold it this morning.
There are people that will take what they get and deal with it, i'm too old to deal with so many issues.
I talked to a guy yesterday that's on his 3rd motor, his car is still in the shop
I wish them well.

When you say so many worn suspension parts. Besides the rod ends what other suspension parts are wearing out fast or needing replacement? I only know of the rod ends that Hollander is offering for the suspension.

Congrats of selling your car so quick. Did you have it or just sell your spot?

 

[DMF]

This "needed" ^^^^ remember these SPEEDUTV's were out the box perfect and needed zero add-on's, I can't believe you have to replace so many worn suspension parts after 500+ miles
I posted my El Diablo for sale yesterday and sold it this morning.
There are people that will take what they get and deal with it, i'm too old to deal with so many issues.
I talked to a guy yesterday that's on his 3rd motor, his car is still in the shop
I wish them well.

Congratulations on the quick sale. Did you list for what you paid?

 

[Fishd00d]

My 15 year old daughter asked me if I thought I could win the Baja 1000 again. I told her probably not but I’m confident every time we begin a race.

There are so many factors that come into play when racing an event like this. Months of strategizing beforehand rarely play out like imagined and luck plays a critical part.

You yourself were taken out by a cactus in your last race. Things happen.

We can assemble the best team in the world and yet the environment will determine our outcome. There is no “good job” in racing. It’s only do or do not as Yota says lol

Finishing a race like this is a step in the right direction. I won’t be so critical of their result just yet. They had a rollover and other issues. The finishing order stings but they’ll improve on what they learned.

You're joking right? lol

 

[rivermobster]

You're joking right? lol

He's joking.

He Knows he will win again.

 

[rivrrts429]

You're joking right? lol

Not about you center punching a cactus… the rest of it was all BS

 

[Fishd00d]

Not about you center punching a cactus… the rest of it was all BS

Well that is actually BS too, I didnt hit a cactus.......it was a Joshua Tree and it only took us out of the race for few hours while we fixed it haha

 

[rivermobster]

Well that is actually BS too, I didnt hit a cactus.......it was a Joshua Tree and it only took us out of the race for few hours while we fixed it haha

Picky picky.

 

[riverroyal]

I thought these were being built in Texas or mex originally. Vietnam now?
When I read Chinese was that since the beginning?
Chinese company building in Vietnam?