When the levee breaks....Lake Oroville dam in trouble.

[jones performance]

I don't know why I didn't look for this earlier, but here it is.
Should be some interesting Aero-Ops visible here today if they go through with the bag-o-rocks drop program.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=29411

That link is a web cam at the park, located south end of the dam, from the lake side. The e-spillway on the far end of the dam.

think its broke or is inundated with web traffic. all i see is a lookout tower and trees.

 

[Riverbound]

think its broke or is inundated with web traffic. all i see is a lookout tower and trees.

hit the play button

 

[Terminal Velocity]

think its broke or is inundated with web traffic. all i see is a lookout tower and trees.

if you touch the picture it plays, and shows the lake

 

[RogerThat99]

Imagine that..... Feds ignored warnings 12 years ago.


http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/12/oroville-dam-feds-and-state-officials-ignored-warnings-12-years-ago/

 

[Old Texan]

Imagine that..... Feds ignored warnings 12 years ago.


http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/12/oroville-dam-feds-and-state-officials-ignored-warnings-12-years-ago/

Wow......Predictions came true. Never an issue until it becomes an issue.:grumble:

 

[RandyH]

Maybe it was said here before but how low can they drop the lake with the normal spillway? doesn't it go dry at some point and then all you have left is the generator tubes to lower the lake further?

 

[Singleton]

Imagine that..... Feds ignored warnings 12 years ago.


http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/12/oroville-dam-feds-and-state-officials-ignored-warnings-12-years-ago/

It's a CA state owned and operated facility. If you do additional research, you will find out the state rejected the claims before the federal government. The state wanted the federal government to pay for the upgrades and the federal government refused and issued a warning to the state to appropriately maintain and keep state owned infrastructure to code.

 

[buck35]

Imagine that..... Feds ignored warnings 12 years ago.


http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/12/oroville-dam-feds-and-state-officials-ignored-warnings-12-years-ago/

Sierra Club and friends of the river . I bet they are licking their chops and lining up lawyers already!

 

[boat527]

Its going to take a LOT of rock to fill THAT hole...

1.


2.



3.

 

[Yellowboat]

that a big hole.

 

[BoatCop]

This is, unfortunately, a common occurrence with water management agencies. Coming off of a drought of biblical proportions, they instinctively want to retain as much water as possible. Look at 1983 and what happened with the Colorado River. Powell was finally filled and the BOR wanted show the "success" of having all reservoirs at 100%. Then came a wet spring and OOPS!

Same-same happening in California. To ward off future droughts and retain sufficient water for the immediate need, they hold off releasing excess flow until the last minute, gambling that they can both control the flood flow and retain the maximum amount of water for domestic, agriculture and environmental purposes. And as usually happens, they lost the bet.

I wonder if there will be ANY Delta Smelt left, after the volume of water cruising through pushing them into the bay?

 

[4Waters]

Its going to take a LOT of rock to fill THAT hole...

1.
View attachment 538997

2.

View attachment 538998

3.

View attachment 539000

Thanks for the pictures

 

[buck35]

Its going to take a LOT of rock to fill THAT hole...

1.
View attachment 538997

2.

View attachment 538998

3.

View attachment 539000

When flowing there was water coming out of the hillside on the far left , past where the spillway is . I thought maybe that was the concern. Guess not.:eek

 

[jones performance]

hit the play button

it just saysloading please wait. i may have java issues on my pc. dam work computer

 

[cicchetti_24]

I don't hate California. I hate the political left because they politicize everything.

You have the same problems in California (with government) that I have here in New York. We both have profoundly stupid politicians who are only concerned about how they can turn a disaster to their own political benefit and the public's well being be damned. The only question is whose politicians are dumber, yours or mine? I'd bet mine and that's not exactly something I'm proud of.

The concessions that should be granted going in both directions is:

1) Brown keeps his mouth shut and stops grandstanding for his own political benefit.
2) Trump needs to keep his mouth shut and do the right thing and not grandstand for his own political benefit.

Now...if I were a betting man, I would bet that neither of these two can manage to do these simple tasks without injecting some PR bullshit for their own benefit.

There is no clearer example of political whoring (and all around general stupidity) than NY Governor Andrew Cuomo. Cuomo is far, far, FAR worse than Jerry Brown. I wish I had Jerry Brown as Governor of NY instead of Andrew Cuomo.

This is true, but I would wager that it's just as bad on the other side as well. But my point is when we are in a state of emergency both sides including the POTUS needs to put opinions, tweets and politics aside and do what is best for the people. Because "We the People" is the first line in our constitution, and not I the president, or me the Governor. I get that I am in the minority here when it comes to this president, but I don't need to see grand standing or people held over a barrel. Again let's not forget this is our Federal Tax dollars that we've paid that will help, so do your job, and that goes for both sides. It will come out who fucked this up, and I seriously hope they make the changes that need to be made. That is how we are going to handle these situations in the future. Learning from our mistakes, if not we will repeat history all over again.

 

[RogerThat99]

I wonder if there will be ANY Delta Smelt left, after the volume of water cruising through pushing them into the bay?

I was looking for them out in the Bay with Lake PAL yesterday. I didn't see any. I guess they moved up to Fort Bragg. [emoji1]




Outside the Golden Gate.

 

[FreeBird236]

Maybe it was said here before but how low can they drop the lake with the normal spillway? doesn't it go dry at some point and then all you have left is the generator tubes to lower the lake further?

I'm just guessing, but I would think they should be able to go below the power plant intake in case something ever went wrong there.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

This is true, but I would wager that it's just as bad on the other side as well. But my point is when we are in a state of emergency both sides including the POTUS needs to put opinions, tweets and politics aside and do what is best for the people. Because "We the People" is the first line in our constitution, and not I the president, or me the Governor. I get that I am in the minority here when it comes to this president, but I don't need to see grand standing or people held over a barrel. Again let's not forget this is our Federal Tax dollars that we've paid that will help, so do your job, and that goes for both sides. It will come out who fucked this up, and I seriously hope they make the changes that need to be made. That is how we are going to handle these situations in the future. Learning from our mistakes, if not we will repeat history all over again.

Hey , cut em a little slack ...after all the salaries and pensions are paid , their is very , very little money left for maintenance or new construction .

 

[boat527]

When flowing there was water coming out of the hillside on the far left , past where the spillway is . I thought maybe that was the concern. Guess not.:eek

Yeah, when I was watching the news last night I thought the same thing...

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Its going to take a LOT of rock to fill THAT hole...

View attachment 538998

This really puts the size of the spillways into perspective since it appears those little yellow dots are people!

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Gentlemen, keep the partisan side of the politics outta this thread please. Feel free to start a related thread in the appropriate section.
Lets keep this on target.

I don't want to start moving posts. I am rusty at it and might accidentally ban someone.

 

[FreeBird236]

Its going to take a LOT of rock to fill THAT hole...

1.
View attachment 538997

2.

View attachment 538998

3.

View attachment 539000

Doesn't look as bad as I expected. If it's built anything like the real dam it should be locked in the bedrock, but I'm no engineer.

 

[Havasteve]

alot of stuff going on...

[video=youtube_https;P87mjrohSpk]https://youtu.be/P87mjrohSpk[/video]

Its hard to listen to these guys. They scare me.

So basically only vague descriptions of failure here. The news says "the emergency spillway has failed" but it looks flat across the concrete top. So Ill describe what I understand based on what info is available.

From what I gather is that the failure is at the "emergency" spillway which looks like an auxiliary damb. Not the long concrete one that this official called an "auxiliary spillway" the hole that everyone has heard of and have yet to see is at the base of the emergency spillway whare the water spills over and goes from vertical to horizontal. Apparently there is a failure to direct the water outward at some point and has drilled straight down below the bottom of the concrete face and continues eroding underneath it toward the lake bottom. Once it diggs under the concrete you are left with a flooded cavern benind and below the damb like structure. It's only a matter of time that the ceiling of the
Flooded cavern digs upward and opens up the bottom of the lake. At that point the lake flows under the structure at a pretty destructive rate. What I understand is that they plan to use helo to drop bags of boulders down the opening which might slow the erosion. plug the hole.

The reason for not opening the gates of the aux spillway is the concern for the amount of unexpected debris from its failure creating a damb at the bottom and thus a new lake behind it where the power plant would reside at the bottom of. No more power house and its ability to control the lake level. So eleviating pressure on one creates a problem for the other. They are trying to spread the damage out. Opening the gates is going to do a lot of damage.

Do I have this right?

 

[BoatCop]

I was looking for them out in the Bay with Lake PAL yesterday. I didn't see any. I guess they moved up to Fort Bragg. [emoji1]

View attachment 539005


Outside the Golden Gate.
View attachment 539006

I miss those views. Even though I only spent one summer at Station San Fran/YBI, I was on the Bay daily for inner harbor patrols. From the southern flats to the delta, swim call behind Angel Island out of the watching eyes of the VTS Radar, to "unauthorized" self guided tours of Alcatraz. Really loved my time in the City.

 

[Yellowboat]

I miss those views. Even though I only spent one summer at Station San Fran/YBI, I was on the Bay daily for inner harbor patrols. From the southern flats to the delta, swim call behind Angel Island out of the watching eyes of the VTS Radar, to "unauthorized" self guided tours of Alcatraz. Really loved my time in the City.

When where you there? I was there 02-03

 

[Justfishing]

Its hard to listen to these guys. They scare me.

So basically only vague descriptions of failure here. The news says "the emergency spillway has failed" but it looks flat across the concrete top. So Ill describe what I understand based on what info is available.

From what I gather is that the failure is at the "emergency" spillway which looks like an auxiliary damb. Not the long concrete one that this official called an "auxiliary spillway" the hole that everyone has heard of and have yet to see is at the base of the emergency spillway whare the water spills over and goes from vertical to horizontal. Apparently there is a failure to direct the water outward at some point and has drilled straight down below the bottom of the concrete face and continues eroding underneath it toward the lake bottom. Once it diggs under the concrete you are left with a flooded cavern benind and below the damb like structure. It's only a matter of time that the ceiling of the
Flooded cavern digs upward and opens up the bottom of the lake. At that point the lake flows under the structure at a pretty destructive rate. What I understand is that they plan to use helo to drop bags of boulders down the opening which might slow the erosion. plug the hole.

The reason for not opening the gates of the aux spillway is the concern for the amount of unexpected debris from its failure creating a damb at the bottom and thus a new lake behind it where the power plant would reside at the bottom of. No more power house and its ability to control the lake level. So eleviating pressure on one creates a problem for the other. They are trying to spread the damage out. Opening the gates is going to do a lot of damage.

Do I have this right?

There are not gates on the auxillary/emergency spillway. The main spillway has the gates and the concrete runway. The auxillary is the wall. They had the option of opening the spillway to 150k cfs but choose to let it fill to the point of lowing over the auxillary. After reading about the 2005 concerns that should never have happened. Also from the picture that corner was not reenforced. At the least they should have filled the corner with large rock and cement as they did on the other side

 

[Icky]

I don't want to start moving posts. I am rusty at it and might accidentally ban someone.

:thumbsup that's awesome

 

[Havasteve]

There are not gates on the auxillary/emergency spillway. The main spillway has the gates and the concrete runway. The auxillary is the wall. They had the option of opening the spillway to 150k cfs but choose to let it fill to the point of lowing over the auxillary. After reading about the 2005 concerns that should never have happened. Also from the picture that corner was not reenforced. At the least they should have filled the corner with large rock and cement as they did on the other side

You are rigt I forwarded over the first uhm,um,uh and uh guy to the second guy and misinterpreted.

 

[Rotten deal]

Its hard to listen to these guys. They scare me.

So basically only vague descriptions of failure here. The news says "the emergency spillway has failed" but it looks flat across the concrete top. So Ill describe what I understand based on what info is available.

From what I gather is that the failure is at the "emergency" spillway which looks like an auxiliary damb. Not the long concrete one that this official called an "auxiliary spillway" the hole that everyone has heard of and have yet to see is at the base of the emergency spillway whare the water spills over and goes from vertical to horizontal. Apparently there is a failure to direct the water outward at some point and has drilled straight down below the bottom of the concrete face and continues eroding underneath it toward the lake bottom. Once it diggs under the concrete you are left with a flooded cavern benind and below the damb like structure. It's only a matter of time that the ceiling of the
Flooded cavern digs upward and opens up the bottom of the lake. At that point the lake flows under the structure at a pretty destructive rate. What I understand is that they plan to use helo to drop bags of boulders down the opening which might slow the erosion. plug the hole.

The reason for not opening the gates of the aux spillway is the concern for the amount of unexpected debris from its failure creating a damb at the bottom and thus a new lake behind it where the power plant would reside at the bottom of. No more power house and its ability to control the lake level. So eleviating pressure on one creates a problem for the other. They are trying to spread the damage out. Opening the gates is going to do a lot of damage.

Do I have this right?

Sounds about right to me.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Not acording to the guy doing the talking on the video. He pointer to the long concrete broke spillway and called it an "auxilary spillway" I dont want to watch it again so youll have to listen for yourself.

They have changed the vernacular of the emergency spillway a few days ago to make it less shocking. The Auxiliary and emergency spillway are one in the same. Fylingbowtie has a few very informative posts a few pages back regarding that structure.

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Havasteve,

That guy used the wrong terminology. The gated structure directly to the left of the dam is the main spillway, commonly called "the spillway".
The long dark colored concrete structure to the left of the spillway is the Emergency Spillway, which has also been called the auxiliary spillway.
Them is the only two they got.

 

[Icky]

Found this don't know if it's been shared here or not yet

 

[BoatCop]

When where you there? I was there 02-03

April-September 1978. I just left the Burton Island and was waiting to get out when I took orders (and a $12,000 reenlistment bonus) to the 11th District Boating Safety Team, which ultimately lead to my chosen career.

 

[28Eliminator]

Daughter sent these to me a few minutes ago of the damage below the emergency spillway.

 

[spectra3279]

Daughter sent these to me a few minutes ago of the damage below the emergency spillway.

View attachment 539016

View attachment 539017

Damn. No pun intended

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Placer County Deputies who worked probably 20 plus hours last night sacked out, they will go on duty in evac zones again tonight.






Butte County Deputy doubled with Roseville PD Officer on patrol




50 Sacramento County deputies involved. CHP with 3 helos.

Proud of my profession. These are good people.
Make me wish I could suit up and go to work again.

 

[Old Texan]

Its hard to listen to these guys. They scare me.

So basically only vague descriptions of failure here. The news says "the emergency spillway has failed" but it looks flat across the concrete top. So Ill describe what I understand based on what info is available.

From what I gather is that the failure is at the "emergency" spillway which looks like an auxiliary damb. Not the long concrete one that this official called an "auxiliary spillway" the hole that everyone has heard of and have yet to see is at the base of the emergency spillway whare the water spills over and goes from vertical to horizontal. Apparently there is a failure to direct the water outward at some point and has drilled straight down below the bottom of the concrete face and continues eroding underneath it toward the lake bottom. Once it diggs under the concrete you are left with a flooded cavern benind and below the damb like structure. It's only a matter of time that the ceiling of the
Flooded cavern digs upward and opens up the bottom of the lake. At that point the lake flows under the structure at a pretty destructive rate. What I understand is that they plan to use helo to drop bags of boulders down the opening which might slow the erosion. plug the hole.

The reason for not opening the gates of the aux spillway is the concern for the amount of unexpected debris from its failure creating a damb at the bottom and thus a new lake behind it where the power plant would reside at the bottom of. No more power house and its ability to control the lake level. So eleviating pressure on one creates a problem for the other. They are trying to spread the damage out. Opening the gates is going to do a lot of damage.

Do I have this right?

That sounds close to what I'm thinking. Watching the helo closeups of the emergency spillway, the water in the extreme right portion looked to be going behind the bottom wall of sorts at the base and appeared to be eroding out behind it as you're describing. The bottom picture of the 3 posted recently, shows that section and it looks like the water eroded behind the bottom concrete and may even have taken a section out. It appears the erosion will eventually take the entire base and front of the earthen portion of the dam away along and below the emergency spillway, weakening the integrity of that whole section. All supporting soil and rock being hydraulically washed away. From that point the uncontrolled flow will just keep eroding away the front area until it gets into the center of the dam itself. At some point failure is eminent as the supporting materials wash away

If that is what is taking place, it would be catastrophic beyond belief downriver. The main spillway has to keep the water from ever putting the emergency section back in play as I just cannot see plugging that weak portion sufficiently with rocks and rip rap. The power to the water in the short time it overflowed is beyond anything but a permanent well engineered "plug" can fix.....

 

[Old Texan]

There are not gates on the auxillary/emergency spillway. The main spillway has the gates and the concrete runway. The auxillary is the wall. They had the option of opening the spillway to 150k cfs but choose to let it fill to the point of lowing over the auxillary. After reading about the 2005 concerns that should never have happened. Also from the picture that corner was not reinforced. At the least they should have filled the corner with large rock and cement as they did on the other side

Recalling the pictures showing the grading and removal of trees prior to the overflow, they looked to have put materials into that corner area along the base of the road. I was thinking that was to allow the sideways flow path to hit and divert downhill. Looking at that action and then seeing the overflow eating that lower wall like structure at the emergency spillway base, the flow actually ate into the back of that material and eroded a lot of the material in that corner. Definitely that was the area of weakness and the failure was close when they made the announcement last night. If the main spillway hadn't got the level down, the emergency area would have failed.

Way too close to disaster and in retrospect, I'd have to believe they made a horrible decision to even allow a drop to go over. Dumping rocks in the hole can't hurt, but I'm thinking they need to concentrate all efforts on keeping the main spillway from ever getting "plugged" or unusable. If the emergency spillway ever gets to the uncontrolled flow point, it will be time to grab their ass and run like hell. Failure is then inevitable.......:yikes

 

[707dog]

just a curious mind wanting to know...

i understand why there putting all the rock in place but if there putting it on top of the existing soil wont the water erode the underlying dirt away first down to bedrock regardless of all the rocks on top having a similar effect the spillway had/having?

 

[Ziggy]

just a curious mind wanting to know...

i understand why there putting all the rock in place but if there putting it on top of the existing soil wont the water erode the underlying dirt away first down to bedrock regardless of all the rocks on top having a similar effect the spillway had/having?

Hopefully whatever emergency repairs are done to aux spillway won't need to be tested.

 

[Dirtbag]

http://kron4.com/

jesus

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Tex the die was cast over a week ago for this event.

When DWR made the decision to allow the lake to rise to the point where they needed to run the spillway at big numbers it was game on.
When the concrete erosion was first noticed they, perhaps, could have made a quicker choice to crank it back up, but they didn't.
That is on DWR.
The failed concrete spillway is on DWR. Deferred maintenance....at best. outright negligence at worst.
The Emergency Spillway was, apparently, designed and or built to a substandard level.
And that, too is on DWR.
FERC owns a chunk too.

They own this thing, lock stock and barrel.
They will own whatever lies in the future as well. The Helos appear to be preparing to crank up and begin the bag-o-rocks shuttle program. I have no doubt that they will bust ass to mitigate future problems, but the weather is a big player in this, and while we know what is coming in a few days we don't yet know what March and April are going to be like. I've seen major precip during both months. There may very well be water over that Emergency Spillway again. I hope not, but it is very much a possibility.
I think the book is far from written on this.

 

[Flyinbowtie]

And now comes the next straw.

They NWS iand County officials are reporting an imminent failure of a Levee on the North fork of the Mokelumne River. This will flood some areas near Walnut Grove.

Waterjunky, cover your ass brother....

 

[TX Foilhead]

I think the problem was Saturday when they cut it back, if they turned it up instead they might have kept it from spilling.

It looks like what they have is a boil from some of those last pictures. Basically the water behind the dam has pushed its way under. The water going over the spillway and washing away the top soil acelerated the issue, but it could have happened even without that just from the water pressure on the other side.

The idea with dropping the rocks is to put pressure on what it left in there to keep it from coming out. The good news is it looks like it on the shallow part by the parking lot so as long as they keep the water below that area they should be OK and might even be able to work on a permanent fix soon.

 

[Her454]

Gentlemen, keep the partisan side of the politics outta this thread please. Feel free to start a related thread in the appropriate section.
Lets keep this on target.

I don't want to start moving posts. I am rusty at it and might accidentally ban someone.

Rusty parts? Oh nevermind [emoji23]

 

[707dog]

And now comes the next straw.

They NWS iand County officials are reporting an imminent failure of a Levee on the North fork of the Mokelumne River. This will flood some areas near Walnut Grove.

Waterjunky, cover your ass brother....

there was a smaller levee that gave way and flooded some farm lands yesterday in that area, but that area isn't really shored up like the bigger sloughs its also some of the oldest parts of the delta.

like ziggy said there will be a funnel effect from this down stream

 

[underpressure]

All that I get out of this (besides the potential impact to the downstream folks) is...get ready to be bent over for water billing rates...

But, we'll still keep working on that bullet train, 'cause, well you know...

Fuck this state!

 

[Deja_Vu]

That doesn't look so good.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-oroville-dam-spillway-explainer-20170212-story.html

 

[RogerThat99]

They didn't give many specifics on the condition of the Emergency Spillway in the news conference.

 

[mjc]

I didn't see or never mentioned, how far down can they get the lake using the main spillway?