Trump lifts ban on import of Ivory

[Uncle Dave]

Nice read.

In closing I will openly admit that the death I witnessed on this safari saddened me. I am internally conflicted and will do some soul searching. One side of me wants to save these beasts . The other side is wise enough to know they must have hunters in the field to offer them the protections they need from threats they don't understand.

I by and large agree fully with this.

In a world where this is necessary such steps much taken to insure any such limited headcount take per dollar dollar "for protection" scenario must be audited and subject to third party scrutiny or it is simply monetized slaughter of our worlds precious resources.

I support an accountable responsible program.

Africa has a rather lousy track record of responsible programs and inconsistent handling of violators.

Well see what the bill actually allows and provides for and go from there.

UD

 

[was thatguy]

Nice read.

In closing I will openly admit that the death I witnessed on this safari saddened me. I am internally conflicted and will do some soul searching. One side of me wants to save these beasts . The other side is wise enough to know they must have hunters in the field to offer them the protections they need from threats they don't understand.

I by and large agree fully with this.

In a world where this is necessary such steps much taken to insure any such limited headcount take per dollar dollar "for protection" scenario must be audited and subject to third party scrutiny or it is simply monetized slaughter of our worlds precious resources.

I support an accountable responsible program.

Africa has a rather lousy track record of responsible programs and inconsistent handling of violators.

Well see what the bill actually allows and provides for and go from there.

UD

I hate to point this out, but we are not the stewards of Africa's animals.

We can run numbers and make logical conclusions, but that smacks against the emotional side of the issue.

The anti hunting crowd is governed strictly by emotion and emotional conclusions.
I quit hunting many years ago in Alaska, but do not judge those who do hunt. It was just no longer something I felt good doing.

As far as the import ban, I defer to the oracle as he always says legalizing criminal activity removes the criminal element.

 

[Outdrive1]

So is Steve for or against this? I don’t know all the ins and outs. Not even sure I care to learn. I don’t see why would lift a ban on elephant trophies however. Does it benefit us in any way?

 

[530RL]

I hate to point this out, but we are not the stewards of Africa's animals.

We can run numbers and make logical conclusions, but that smacks against the emotional side of the issue.

The anti hunting crowd is governed strictly by emotion and emotional conclusions.
I quit hunting many years ago in Alaska, but do not judge those who do hunt. It was just no longer something I felt good doing.

As far as the import ban, I defer to the oracle as he always says legalizing criminal activity removes the criminal element.

 

[SBMech]

I hate to point this out, but we are not the stewards of Africa's animals.

We can run numbers and make logical conclusions, but that smacks against the emotional side of the issue.

The anti hunting crowd is governed strictly by emotion and emotional conclusions.
I quit hunting many years ago in Alaska, but do not judge those who do hunt. It was just no longer something I felt good doing.

As far as the import ban, I defer to the oracle as he always says legalizing criminal activity removes the criminal element.

Those same people who do not see the need for this type of management are also the same sheeple who have never hunted, do not understand the need for it and typically are the ones who abandon their pets (cats-dogs-rats-etc) because of their poor decisions/lack of training,straight up abuse, or because they simply did not understand the responsibility they signed up for.

I have not hunted big game for a decade now, and don't really miss it, but there was always a part of me that was saddened to have to kill Coyotes and Wolves when they had bounties on them (usually from overpopulation and killing sheep/cows/pets), I guess you could say I've proved everything I ever needed to myself about being a Hunter.

It's completely different when you use 100% of the animal like the Indians used to when you are in a rural area and that is your meat supply for the year.

 

[530RL]

At the end of the day, every group who has an opinion will tell you they are doing it for the animals, but in reality they are doing it for whatever their own selfish or economic interests are. There are no altruistic interests for the elephants. It always boils down to self interest and money.

 

[Stainless]

I hate to point this out, but we are not the stewards of Africa's animals.

We can run numbers and make logical conclusions, but that smacks against the emotional side of the issue.

The anti hunting crowd is governed strictly by emotion and emotional conclusions.
I quit hunting many years ago in Alaska, but do not judge those who do hunt. It was just no longer something I felt good doing.

As far as the import ban, I defer to the oracle as he always says legalizing criminal activity removes the criminal element.

Ironically, I’m pretty much the same as you, I used to hunt and quit about 10 years ago. For some reason the taste of wild meat was lost. I like to shoot and I’m a bit of a collector of certain out of production revolvers. Both of my daughters are passionate hunters.
However I’m vehemently against killing Elephants for sport under the guise of conservation.

 

[was thatguy]

At the end of the day, every group who has an opinion will tell you they are doing it for the animals, but in reality they are doing it for whatever their own selfish or economic interests are. There are no altruistic interests for the elephants. It always boils down to self interest and money.

Are you saying that no one really cares?
I don't disagree with you outright, there's always an agenda, but like most things a combination of sincere effort would seem to be a solution?
And there ARE people that are dedicated to finding a real solution...as much of one as man can figure out anyway.

 

[SBMech]

At the end of the day, every group who has an opinion will tell you they are doing it for the animals, but in reality they are doing it for whatever their own selfish or economic interests are. There are no altruistic interests for the elephants. It always boils down to self interest and money.

To think otherwise would label you a moron, you just don't see the flip side of it, either through lack of research or simple ignorance.

There are droves of people who keep close tabs on these types of control hunts, and whenever they even think there is foul play or a lack of results, it's plastered everywhere on the media.

Performance is everything, if they cannot show improvement, or growth, the programs are scrapped almost instantly.

 

[530RL]

To think otherwise would label you a moron, you just don't see the flip side of it, either through lack of research or simple ignorance.

There are droves of people who keep close tabs on these types of control hunts, and whenever they even think there is foul play or a lack of results, it's plastered everywhere on the media.

Performance is everything, if they cannot show improvement, or growth, the programs are scrapped almost instantly.

I'm going to go with Moron.......

I see all sides of it perfectly clearly. Not just the flip side, but all sides; and all sides have the same thing in common, none of them have an altruistic interest for the elephants.

 

[SBMech]

I'm going to go with Moron.......

I see all sides of it perfectly clearly. Not just the flip side, but all sides; and all sides have the same thing in common, none of them have an altruistic interest for the elephants.

Believe what you like, but the program is keeping them from total extinction. Without intervention the locals would have killed them all off years ago.

 

[SBMech]

Hunted much big game 530? I certainly did not type you as a hunter of any sort.

 

[Gelcoater]

I'm going to go with Moron.......

I see all sides of it perfectly clearly. Not just the flip side, but all sides; and all sides have the same thing in common, none of them have an altruistic interest for the elephants.

Opinions are like assholes.

 

[Gelcoater]

Hunted much big game 530? I certainly did not type you as a hunter of any sort.

He's more of a fisherman, lol.

 

[was thatguy]

Hunted much big game 530? I certainly did not type you as a hunter of any sort.

I hear he's actually hunting right now...for a new politician.
Sadly, his target game is now a threatened species...rinopolitico- extinctivis.

 

[530RL]

Hunted much big game 530? I certainly did not type you as a hunter of any sort.

Lots as a kid but never really liked killing the animal that much. Never really seemed like much of a "sport" or was very fair given the animal could not shoot back. Loved the camping, drinking, smoking, chewing tobacco and having a good time.

Father grew up on farm in Idaho, mother from military family so they all hunted and all had guns.

Still have a ton of guns, but they are only there for people who would think to shoot at me.

 

[530RL]

Opinions are like assholes.

Unlike opinions, Assholes at least provide a valuable function.

 

[500bbc]

Unlike opinions, Assholes at least provide a valuable function.

When man first evolved the body was arguing over who would be the boss.
The brain said me of course, I control everting.
The hands said you can't accomplish anything without me.
The feet, no way to travel.
The lungs, your very breath and so on down the line until the asshole said it must be me.
The rest of the body laughed and laughed so the asshole shut up, slowly the body began to die until they relented.
Ok, Ok Asshole you can be the boss.

The moral being you don't have to be that smart, just very good at one thing to be the boss.


Turdy, please don't ever clam up on us, could have dire consequences...

 

[was thatguy]

Lots as a kid but never really liked killing the animal that much. Never really seemed like much of a "sport" or was very fair given the animal could not shoot back. Loved the camping, drinking, smoking, chewing tobacco and having a good time.

Father grew up on farm in Idaho, mother from military family so they all hunted and all had guns.

Still have a ton of guns, but they are only there for people who would think to shoot at me.

The killing didn't bother me...but the dying did.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

I hate to point this out, but we are not the stewards of Africa's animals.

We can run numbers and make logical conclusions, but that smacks against the emotional side of the issue.

The anti hunting crowd is governed strictly by emotion and emotional conclusions.
I quit hunting many years ago in Alaska, but do not judge those who do hunt. It was just no longer something I felt good doing.

As far as the import ban, I defer to the oracle as he always says legalizing criminal activity removes the criminal element.

Well, in this case 530 is at least partially right. There are literally thousands of TONS of seized poached Ivory. It is burned to remove it from the market. If it were to be legalized, flood the market, drive the price down and then the illegal activity ceases to pay.

RSA; Rhino horn. The illicit Rhino horn trade in South Africa. There is MUCH conversation about legalizing the trade. Currently, Rhino horn trades for unbelievable dollars. Its something like 50K per kilo. Legalized it, let the South African game farmers trade in it, the poaching would all but disappear. Incidentally, Hunters SINGLEHANDEDLY saved the White Rhino from extinction, through "Green Hunts", which I've done (darting)

So is Steve for or against this? I don’t know all the ins and outs. Not even sure I care to learn. I don’t see why would lift a ban on elephant trophies however. Does it benefit us in any way?

Paul, yes I am for it (the ban being lifted). Ryan Zinke (USFWS) did it, not President Trump. (Lions are now allowed as well, Zambia & Zimbabwe only)

The reasons are complex but what the heck, here I go.

You and others may find it completely counterintuitive but I love wildlife as much or more than anyone. I simply see myself in the circle of life differently. That doesn't make me right, its just who I am. Elephants are NOT really endangered, regardless of what is being sold. Tanzania, HELL YES, they are critically endangered. The Selous game reserve was hammered particular hard. Again, not by hunters, by poachers. The Selous is huge, its 100% uninhabited. The only people in there are; Hunters, Game Scouts and Poachers...period. Its just tooo vast to plug all the holes. These poachers kill the Elephants, cut the Ivory out, cut it up into small pieces and put in in nylon bags. They then, ride out on their bicycles and bring it to a buyer. Hard to catch when you're looking for an intact tusk.

These are very typical of what you see in the bush.

Elephant conservation isn't really being explained well. Botswana is the exception but overpopulation is a bit of a fallacy. When I hunted in Botswana, (2006) there were approximately 170-180,000 Elephants. They estimated that was 40-50,000 too many. There were approximately 20,000 Elephants poached that year. There were either 263 or 363 (I don't remember) legally hunted Elephants. So let me ask you, where is the problem? Further 100% of the anti-poaching patrols were funded by those 363 legally hunted Elephants.

I'm not trying to changes minds, just give some factual information. Hunting is certainly social taboo anymore, I get it. I have exactly ZERO hunting pictures on my FB page.

There is an international organization called CITES, Convention of International Trade for Endangered Species. There are three listings; appendix's 1,2 and 3. Here is the link.

https://cites.org/eng/app/index.php

It is an international organization, science driven. They have no issues with Lions/Leopards/Elephants being hunted and imported as long as the numbers support the conservation model.

I only wish some of you could see what I've seen. There are no shortage of Leopards or Elephants. Lions, they are not seen in the numbers but are there and the populations are healthy in areas, not so much in others. Again, not due to sport hunting, here's why.

The bush African live around Lions. Lions are hunted where they are. In most of Africa there are villages randomly around in the bush. (Not Tanzania's Selous) These Africans are shit scared of Lions. People are still eaten by Lions in todays modern world. Weird eh? So, they hate the damn things. However, if an American "Aristocrat" comes to hunt one, there are jobs, money, health care and education. So, they simply tolerate the damn things.

But now, remove the financial incentive from living around Lions, what do you think they have? A dangerous animal in their midst with nothing to gain by their presence. So, they poison them. So, rather than one (highly restricted) age class male being removed, thee entire pride is poisoned. Hyena's and Leopards and other predators and scavengers eat the dead Lions and they all die. Vultures, Malibu Storks...everything dies. SO, what makes more conservation sense to you? One male of six year old, not holding a pride (because of infanticide) or the long chain of deaths associated with poisoning a problem Lion. They simply tolerate them, as a financial commodity.

Please watch this, it will amaze you. Keep in mind, this guy loves his Lions and isn't a hunter.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...D561424C52119138B80ED561424C52119&FORM=VRDGAR

A Lions roar will certainly take your breath away.

Regards,

Steve

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

For anyone who may be interested in helping conserve wildlife, without actually shooting it.

http://www.conservationforce.org/

This organization is on top of it.

 

[underpressure]

Thanks for the education / explanation nganga, much appreciated!

 

[Outdrive1]

Thanks for the education / explanation nganga, much appreciated!

X2

 

[was thatguy]

Well, in this case 530 is at least partially right. There are literally thousands of TONS of seized poached Ivory. It is burned to remove it from the market. If it were to be legalized, flood the market, drive the price down and then the illegal activity ceases to pay.

RSA; Rhino horn. The illicit Rhino horn trade in South Africa. There is MUCH conversation about legalizing the trade. Currently, Rhino horn trades for unbelievable dollars. Its something like 50K per kilo. Legalized it, let the South African game farmers trade in it, the poaching would all but disappear. Incidentally, Hunters SINGLEHANDEDLY saved the White Rhino from extinction, through "Green Hunts", which I've done (darting)



Paul, yes I am for it (the ban being lifted). Ryan Zinke (USFWS) did it, not President Trump. (Lions are now allowed as well, Zambia & Zimbabwe only)

The reasons are complex but what the heck, here I go.

You and others may find it completely counterintuitive but I love wildlife as much or more than anyone. I simply see myself in the circle of life differently. That doesn't make me right, its just who I am. Elephants are NOT really endangered, regardless of what is being sold. Tanzania, HELL YES, they are critically endangered. The Selous game reserve was hammered particular hard. Again, not by hunters, by poachers. The Selous is huge, its 100% uninhabited. The only people in there are; Hunters, Game Scouts and Poachers...period. Its just tooo vast to plug all the holes. These poachers kill the Elephants, cut the Ivory out, cut it up into small pieces and put in in nylon bags. They then, ride out on their bicycles and bring it to a buyer. Hard to catch when you're looking for an intact tusk.

These are very typical of what you see in the bush.

View attachment 602768

View attachment 602769

Elephant conservation isn't really being explained well. Botswana is the exception but overpopulation is a bit of a fallacy. When I hunted in Botswana, (2006) there were approximately 170-180,000 Elephants. They estimated that was 40-50,000 too many. There were approximately 20,000 Elephants poached that year. There were either 263 or 363 (I don't remember) legally hunted Elephants. So let me ask you, where is the problem? Further 100% of the anti-poaching patrols were funded by those 363 legally hunted Elephants.

I'm not trying to changes minds, just give some factual information. Hunting is certainly social taboo anymore, I get it. I have exactly ZERO hunting pictures on my FB page.

There is an international organization called CITES, Convention of International Trade for Endangered Species. There are three listings; appendix's 1,2 and 3. Here is the link.

https://cites.org/eng/app/index.php

It is an international organization, science driven. They have no issues with Lions/Leopards/Elephants being hunted and imported as long as the numbers support the conservation model.

I only wish some of you could see what I've seen. There are no shortage of Leopards or Elephants. Lions, they are not seen in the numbers but are there and the populations are healthy in areas, not so much in others. Again, not due to sport hunting, here's why.

The bush African live around Lions. Lions are hunted where they are. In most of Africa there are villages randomly around in the bush. (Not Tanzania's Selous) These Africans are shit scared of Lions. People are still eaten by Lions in todays modern world. Weird eh? So, they hate the damn things. However, if an American "Aristocrat" comes to hunt one, there are jobs, money, health care and education. So, they simply tolerate the damn things.

But now, remove the financial incentive from living around Lions, what do you think they have? A dangerous animal in their midst with nothing to gain by their presence. So, they poison them. So, rather than one (highly restricted) age class male being removed, thee entire pride is poisoned. Hyena's and Leopards and other predators and scavengers eat the dead Lions and they all die. Vultures, Malibu Storks...everything dies. SO, what makes more conservation sense to you? One male of six year old, not holding a pride (because of infanticide) or the long chain of deaths associated with poisoning a problem Lion. They simply tolerate them, as a financial commodity.

Please watch this, it will amaze you. Keep in mind, this guy loves his Lions and isn't a hunter.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...D561424C52119138B80ED561424C52119&FORM=VRDGAR

A Lions roar will certainly take your breath away.

Regards,

Steve

I watched a special on ivory poaching that was unbelievable.
It showed the military gunning down poachers in an all out firefight.
The number of poached elephants was astronomical, and the lengths these poachers went to was incredible.
It seems that, in this case, it would be a certainty that the money would dry up to poachers by lifting this ban?
At least to the point of making it not worth the risk?

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

I watched a special on ivory poaching that was unbelievable.
It showed the military gunning down poachers in an all out firefight.
The number of poached elephants was astronomical, and the lengths these poachers went to was incredible.
It seems that, in this case, it would be a certainty that the money would dry up to poachers by lifting this ban?
At least to the point of making it not worth the risk?

Does this make any sense?

 

[buck35]

[QUOTE="nganga, post: 2819895, member: 5103is make any sense?

View attachment 602812 [/QUOTE]
That makes me want cry and puke. Hundreds of magnificent animals killed for nothing.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

[QUOTE="nganga, post: 2819895, member: 5103is make any sense?

View attachment 602812

That makes me want cry and puke. Hundreds of magnificent animals killed for nothing.[/QUOTE]



I say sell it to the orient. Let them make figurines and dildos from it. That many Elephants won't die.

Again, a few Elephants die to keep this from happening. Seem like an intelligent trade off for the good of the species.

 

[buck35]

That makes me want cry and puke. Hundreds of magnificent animals killed for nothing.

I say sell it to the orient. Let them make figurines and dildos from it. That many Elephants won't die.

Again, a few Elephants die to keep this from happening. Seem like an intelligent trade off for the good of the species.[/QUOTE]


The utter waste was what I was referring to. The elephants had already been killed.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

I say sell it to the orient. Let them make figurines and dildos from it. That many Elephants won't die.

Again, a few Elephants die to keep this from happening. Seem like an intelligent trade off for the good of the species.

The utter waste was what I was referring to. The elephants had already been killed.[/QUOTE]


I understood, I was agreeing with you. It is a terrible waste.

Conservation in Africa is a difficult thing to accept for many. I do in fact understand the emotions that people have about this. I don't want to live in a world without Lions and Elephants. I have seen a model that works, its just difficult for some to accept.

 

[pack3tZer0]

The US government says we need to kill Elephants as a trophy sport to save them. The logic here, make it a trophy sport, breed elephants, increase the population for profit. I understand that logic. Here is the problem. Africa contains the MOST (fact) corrupt countries in the world. Unless it is going to be heavily regulated (which I'm against), this will just end badly. I could be, wrong. I hope I am in the case.

 

[530RL]

I don't want to live in a world without Lions and Elephants. I have seen a model that works, its just difficult for some to accept.

The data is the data.

 

[pack3tZer0]

Here is US guarding Opium. War on drugs or drug war for profit? You Decide,

 

[pack3tZer0]

View attachment 602818

Now that it is legal trade, they'll breed them without the fear of intervention, thus increasing the population. That's pretty much your only hope.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...ary-rice-elephants-poaching-cites-corruption/

Dan, I agree completely with your graph. Are you saying hunting caused this? Look at JUST Tanzania's decline in my link.

 

[was thatguy]

Does this make any sense?

View attachment 602812

Not to me.

 

[pack3tZer0]

Not to me.

That picture is for propaganda. Corruption.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

The problem won't get much better when there are 4.5 Billion people on the African continent. The issue then will of course be loss of habitat.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Now that it is legal trade, they'll breed them without the fear of intervention, thus increasing the population. That's pretty much your only hope.

The Ivory trade wasn't legalized. What Trump (USFWS) did was turn around an Ivory importation ban that Dan Ashe, Obama's USFWS director installed. You still cannot sell ivory. Not even legally hunted, imported. It's yours for life. Your heirs can inherit it, that's all.

So, guys that have hunted Elephants since the ban can now get their Ivory to their homes. The future hunted Ivory will get here sooner. More people will book hunts, more anti poaching money=less poached Elephants.

 

[pack3tZer0]

The problem won't get much better when there are 4.5 Billion people on the African continent. The issue then will of course be loss of habitat.

View attachment 602819

Great graph! However, I don't think that will be the cause of extinction of elephants. It'll be due to the corrupt and non-regulated trade of trophy parts. They don't care about repopulating for their kids to inherit, they want a quick buck and that's it. I don't agree with Trump in this case.

 

[pack3tZer0]

The Ivory trade wasn't legalized. What Trump (USFWS) did was turn around an Ivory importation ban that Dan Ashe, Obama's USFWS director installed. You still cannot sell ivory. Not even legally hunted, imported. It's yours for life. Your heirs can inherit it, that's all.

So, guys that have hunted Elephants since the ban can now get their Ivory to their homes. The future hunted Ivory will get here sooner. More people will book hunts, more anti poaching money=less poached Elephants.

You seem to be right. Apologies, the media has too much control over the Internet (news sources)

 

[Gelcoater]

You seem to be right. Apologies, the media has too much control over the Internet (news sources)

I guess I missed your intro thread in the new member section?
What kind of boat do you have?
And what prop you runnin?

 

[pack3tZer0]

I guess I missed your intro thread in the new member section?
What kind of boat do you have?
And what prop you runnin?

Jet. I'm running a Berk A for now, it's a 454, running at 450 HP. Not competing, just like the ride. I didn't post an intro post, you didn't miss it.

 

[was thatguy]

I guess I missed your intro thread in the new member section?
What kind of boat do you have?
And what prop you runnin?

Born on the 4th of July.

 

[Stainless]

I got called into work (on vacation) to negotiate a final offer on a bid I submitted back in Sept.
Just leaving office and see Trump is putting this decision on hold for the time being.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Jet. I'm running a Berk A for now, it's a 454, running at 450 HP. Not competing, just like the ride. I didn't post an intro post, you didn't miss it.

Grads, go play with yourself in the lounge.

 

[530RL]

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...ary-rice-elephants-poaching-cites-corruption/

Dan, I agree completely with your graph. Are you saying hunting caused this? Look at JUST Tanzania's decline in my link.

What I am saying is that the irrefutable evidence is that the elephant population is declining.

Therefore, if hunters were solely concerned about the elephant population, they would not kill them as killing them irrefutably reduces the population. They would donate the money without regards to the right to kill an elephant.

But that is not the case, they are concerned about the elephant population so they have elephants to kill.

I am not making the judgement whether that is right or wrong, simply stating the logic.

 

[pack3tZer0]

Grads, go play with yourself in the lounge.

1. I'm not grads.
2. I'm not a libtard
3. You can disagree with a Republican and not be left wing
4. I'm here because I find this forum fun with the political discussion.

Again, if you read my post before page 8, you'll see that I understand the logic of making ivory free trade AND that I haven't read that much into it. I don't trust any country on the continent of Africa. That is where most of the ivory comes from. However, if they have business sense, they'll breed more elephants to increase their profits.

 

[Gelcoater]

I got called into work (on vacation) to negotiate a final offer on a bid I submitted back in Sept.
Just leaving office and see Trump is putting this decision on hold for the time being.

That should teach you!
When you go on vacation... Go far away.
And turn off the phone!

 

[Stainless]

1. I'm not grads.
2. I'm not a libtard
3. You can disagree with a Republican and not be left wing
4. I'm here because I find this forum fun with the political discussion.

Again, if you read my post before page 8, you'll see that I understand the logic of making ivory free trade AND that I haven't read that much into it. I don't trust any country on the continent of Africa. That is where most of the ivory comes from. However, if they have business sense, they'll breed more elephants to increase their profits.

Yea, that came out of nowhere, I’ve seen you post in here and you’re not a Dem.

 

[Stainless]

That should teach you!
When you go on vacation... Go far away.
And turn off the phone!

Bonus $$$, plus I’ll just take off equivalent time on the backend. I have a very good boss!