Tesla Continues to collapse.

[SBMech]

George, Asia and Europe literally subsidize all automakers, and not just EV's.

The government of Lower Sadony owns 30% of VW as an example.

And the Japanese government has been accused of manipulating their currency to keep automaker profits high.

And then we can add in subsidies on the purchasing end for EV's which (depending on region) are often significantly more than US tax credits.

You seem to take an aggressive "you must be a Tesla lover" tone to anything that doesn't agree with you 100%.

I've spelled out issues I have with the company, but am not so jaded to dismiss how they manage to generate cash to the tune of $10B /annually, either.

Or that they have a product that's so far without peer, and an owner demographic that's quite impressive from a marketing POV.

And your figures are flat wrong that it costs them 200% more to produce than the selling price. If that was the case, and when you add-in their reinvestment costs to own the verticals for battery production, their losses would be significantly more staggering than they are now.

Their car making operations aren't losing $5B annually. I have no idea where you're getting this info from.

They continue to burn capitol man.....https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/financials/

 

[pronstar]

George, when did I ever call Tesla "a winner"?

SBMech, no one is disputing that they spend cash faster than you or I could burn it.

 

[pronstar]

Rrrr, VW has taken over $18B in charges due to dieselgate, and posted a $5B loss a year or so ago due to it.

Lower Saxony has invested $9B of taxpayer money into the company. And has a long history of critics telling the government to get out of a car making business, and to get a politician off the Board.

When you can invest public money and steer public policy toward a company, that's a subsidy of epic proportion.

I'm a free market guy and don't think Tesla or any other company should get a leg-up using public funds. Show me where I've ever advocated that?

The ~$5B Tesla (and SpeceX) has received, and the fact that states are falling over themselves to give Tesla money, doesn't make sense in a free market.

But to single them out as the only company getting government money in what's otherwise a "free market" isn't reality.

As an example closer to home, the .gov literally wiped GM's balance sheet clean during the BK, leaving thousands of investors and companies holding the bag.

And the banking crisis?
Our .gov heaps their losses in taxpayers, while allowing their profits to remain private.

We could go on and in with farm subsidies, oil subsidies...

The question for Tesla is, what does their future hold?

I get that you guys see it as bleak.

I don't have the answer, but in a way I liken it to Amazon, who burned tremendous cash creating their verticals before actually generating a profit. But they did generate cash, as Tesla does...and folks were beating the drums of Amazons' demise (and calling investors idtiots) for a long, long time.

Don't confuse "generating cash" with "generating a profit".

It'll be very interesting to revisit this thread in a few years to see who's crystal ball was correct.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Musk is smart and he, like some of the great industrialists and moguls before him, is a master at marketing. If that is enough to see his company through, than it doesn't matter how close the final score was, a win is a win.

Part of me hopes he sells a pant load of the Model 3's, I can't wait for the electric sales.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Rrrr, VW has taken over $18B in charges due to dieselgate, and posted a $5B loss a year or so ago due to it.

Lower Saxony has invested $9B of taxpayer money into the company. And has a long history of critics telling the government to get out of a car making business, and to get a politician off the Board.

When you can invest public money and steer public policy toward a company, that's a subsidy of epic proportion.

I'm a free market guy and don't think Tesla or any other company should get a leg-up using public funds. Show me where I've ever advocated that?

The ~$5B Tesla (and SpeceX) has received, and the fact that states are falling over themselves to give Tesla money, doesn't make sense in a free market.

But to single them out as the only company getting government money in what's otherwise a "free market" isn't reality.

As an example closer to home, the .gov literally wiped GM's balance sheet clean during the BK, leaving thousands of investors and companies holding the bag.

And the banking crisis?
Our .gov heaps their losses in taxpayers, while allowing their profits to remain private.

We could go on and in with farm subsidies, oil subsidies...

The question for Tesla is, what does their future hold?

I get that you guys see it as bleak.

I don't have the answer, but in a way I liken it to Amazon, who burned tremendous cash creating their verticals before actually generating a profit. But they did generate cash, as Tesla does...and folks were beating the drums of Amazons' demise (and calling investors idtiots) for a long, long time.

Don't confuse "generating cash" with "generating a profit".

It'll be very interesting to revisit this thread in a few years to see who's crystal ball was correct.

I totally get what you are saying. Sometimes I think I'm George doesn't completely read stuff and fills in the blanks with counter-points to his stance.

 

[AzGeo]

George, when did I ever call Tesla "a winner"?

SBMech, no one is disputing that they spend cash faster than you or I could burn it.

In your posts #88, #91, and #93, you champion Tesla so much, and you state, the Euro auto companies are following Musk, and Tesla sells Millions of dollars of cars every quarter, ....

But he is STILL BLEEDING MORE OUT THAN HE BRINGS IN .

Are ALL those EURO auto makers also FOLLOWING MUSK OFF the CLIFF ?

HELL NO ! Those companies are winners, and their countries only put government money into WINNERS, and NEVER so much tax payer money into MULTIPLE, start up companies, with so many convoluted practices .

Wall Street has and always will PUMP UP the "best thing since sliced bread", right up until the whole thing TANKS and they all lose their money . If this is "a tech thing", and not a "car thing", the investors here have short memories indeed .

WHAT could this country do with all the millions Musk loses every quarter ?

Schools, VA hospitals, job retraining, college debt, military services, infrastructure, pay down the national debt ..............

 

[2Driver]

Elan Ponsey

 

[SBMech]

Rrrr, VW has taken over $18B in charges due to dieselgate, and posted a $5B loss a year or so ago due to it.

Lower Saxony has invested $9B of taxpayer money into the company. And has a long history of critics telling the government to get out of a car making business, and to get a politician off the Board.

When you can invest public money and steer public policy toward a company, that's a subsidy of epic proportion.

I'm a free market guy and don't think Tesla or any other company should get a leg-up using public funds. Show me where I've ever advocated that?

The ~$5B Tesla (and SpeceX) has received, and the fact that states are falling over themselves to give Tesla money, doesn't make sense in a free market.

But to single them out as the only company getting government money in what's otherwise a "free market" isn't reality.

As an example closer to home, the .gov literally wiped GM's balance sheet clean during the BK, leaving thousands of investors and companies holding the bag.

And the banking crisis?
Our .gov heaps their losses in taxpayers, while allowing their profits to remain private.

We could go on and in with farm subsidies, oil subsidies...

The question for Tesla is, what does their future hold?

I get that you guys see it as bleak.

I don't have the answer, but in a way I liken it to Amazon, who burned tremendous cash creating their verticals before actually generating a profit. But they did generate cash, as Tesla does...and folks were beating the drums of Amazons' demise (and calling investors idtiots) for a long, long time.

Don't confuse "generating cash" with "generating a profit".

It'll be very interesting to revisit this thread in a few years to see who's crystal ball was correct.

I know you have a finger on the pulse of the industry, but you have to admit Tesla is a looser as a business. Yes they are selling vehicles, but you cannot compare even 5 years of business with the big 5. Those companies have weathered much tougher times, and larger trials.

He is a great scammer IMO. Playing with OPM is easy till you flush it. I am as curious as you to see the final outcome.

 

[RitcheyRch]

Looks like nothing has changed.

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-dangerous-riddle-that-is-teslas-elon-musk


Said cash being burned is prodigious. Again, according to Bloomberg, Tesla has been ripping through US$8,000 a minute — that’s half a million U.S. greenbacks an hour — for the last 12 months. Barclays Bank estimates the company will consume $4.2 billion this year alone, and Jeffrey Osborne, a research analyst covering the alternative energy sector, estimates Tesla’s capital expenditure will be in the region of $20 billion to $25 billion between 2017 and 2020. This, on top of the $10+ billion the company has gone through since Mr. Musk took control 10 years ago.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Looks like nothing has changed.

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-dangerous-riddle-that-is-teslas-elon-musk


Said cash being burned is prodigious. Again, according to Bloomberg, Tesla has been ripping through US$8,000 a minute — that’s half a million U.S. greenbacks an hour — for the last 12 months. Barclays Bank estimates the company will consume $4.2 billion this year alone, and Jeffrey Osborne, a research analyst covering the alternative energy sector, estimates Tesla’s capital expenditure will be in the region of $20 billion to $25 billion between 2017 and 2020. This, on top of the $10+ billion the company has gone through since Mr. Musk took control 10 years ago.

Sounds like Ultra Boats on a larger scale LOL.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Looks like nothing has changed.

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-dangerous-riddle-that-is-teslas-elon-musk


Said cash being burned is prodigious. Again, according to Bloomberg, Tesla has been ripping through US$8,000 a minute — that’s half a million U.S. greenbacks an hour — for the last 12 months. Barclays Bank estimates the company will consume $4.2 billion this year alone, and Jeffrey Osborne, a research analyst covering the alternative energy sector, estimates Tesla’s capital expenditure will be in the region of $20 billion to $25 billion between 2017 and 2020. This, on top of the $10+ billion the company has gone through since Mr. Musk took control 10 years ago.

But, but, the guy is a genius.

 

[500bbc]

Looks like nothing has changed.

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-dangerous-riddle-that-is-teslas-elon-musk


Said cash being burned is prodigious. Again, according to Bloomberg, Tesla has been ripping through US$8,000 a minute — that’s half a million U.S. greenbacks an hour — for the last 12 months. Barclays Bank estimates the company will consume $4.2 billion this year alone, and Jeffrey Osborne, a research analyst covering the alternative energy sector, estimates Tesla’s capital expenditure will be in the region of $20 billion to $25 billion between 2017 and 2020. This, on top of the $10+ billion the company has gone through since Mr. Musk took control 10 years ago.

What's their bottom line without we taxpayers being extorted to keep his house of cards standing?

 

[Andy01]

What's their bottom line without we taxpayers being extorted to keep his house of cards standing?

That's what I was wondering? How much of the money they are burning is tax dollars.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Sounds like Ultra Boats on a larger scale LOL.

I put a deposit on a model 3 2 years ago, and they haven't called me back lol

 

[HB2Havasu]

Surprisingly thier stock is up around $85 (+34%) per share from last year at this time. Must be a lot of koolaid drinking Tesla fanatics keeping this rolling considering the large amounts of capitol they have been spending like drunken sailors the last few months, lol. It’s due for an ass whipping soon!!!

 

[707dog]

not sure about sales but they sure keep the local trades going with work at theres facilities ,have talk to quite a few people and they have a lot of work going on at all places

 

[Flying_Lavey]

not sure about sales but they sure keep the local trades going with work at theres facilities ,have talk to quite a few people and they have a lot of work going on at all places

My dad has between 1 and 2 complete install crews in Hawthorne at all times.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[napanutt]

http://bit.ly/2GVyePh

 

[pronstar]

That's what I was wondering? How much of the money they are burning is tax dollars.

$5B-ish in tax subsidies since day one.
$56B market cap.
$12B revenue in 2017.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[rrrr]

I found another story on the website Ritchey linked that said that in Ontario, EVs are eligible for $14,000 in subsidies.

The Canadian government is contemplating the implementation of nationwide EV subsidies. These attempts to pick winners and losers with taxpayer money are the worst kind of interference in free markets. I am utterly opposed to these giveaways.

If EVs make economic sense to purchasers, they will buy them. Huge subsidies like the Ontario example are ridiculous. Why should someone buying a $100,000 Tesla receive a $14,000 gift financed by tax dollars?

 

[regor]

Just a few days ago, shareholders of Tesla approved an almost comical pay package for their cult leader CEO Elon Musk that could potentially put $50 BILLION in his pocket over the next decade.

Let’s put this figure in perspective: at $5 billion per year, Musk would make more than every single CEO in the S&P 500. COMBINED.

In other words, if you add up the salaries of all the CEOs of the 500 largest companies in America, it would still be less than the $5 billion per year that Mr. Musk stands to earn.

That’s pretty astounding given that Tesla’s own 2017 4th quarter financial report (page 24) states that Elon “does not devote his full time and attention to Tesla”.

Or more importantly, that under Musk’s leadership, Tesla’s chronic financial incompetence has racked up more than $4.97 billion in operating losses for its shareholders.

Or that the company has been under SEC investigation (without bothering to disclose this fact to shareholders).

Yet they saw fit to reward him with the largest CEO pay package in the history of the world.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-26/tesla-without-any-doubt-verge-bankruptcy

BK anyone?

 

[wsuwrhr]

Now you see why people call him a genius.

Just a few days ago, shareholders of Tesla approved an almost comical pay package for their cult leader CEO Elon Musk that could potentially put $50 BILLION in his pocket over the next decade.

Let’s put this figure in perspective: at $5 billion per year, Musk would make more than every single CEO in the S&P 500. COMBINED.

In other words, if you add up the salaries of all the CEOs of the 500 largest companies in America, it would still be less than the $5 billion per year that Mr. Musk stands to earn.

That’s pretty astounding given that Tesla’s own 2017 4th quarter financial report (page 24) states that Elon “does not devote his full time and attention to Tesla”.

Or more importantly, that under Musk’s leadership, Tesla’s chronic financial incompetence has racked up more than $4.97 billion in operating losses for its shareholders.

Or that the company has been under SEC investigation (without bothering to disclose this fact to shareholders).

Yet they saw fit to reward him with the largest CEO pay package in the history of the world.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-26/tesla-without-any-doubt-verge-bankruptcy

BK anyone?

 

[Raffit78]

I'm just really getting tired of all these innocent people dying behind the autonomous killing machine Tesla. When will there be a rule that said cars will no longer be on the streets that we all commute on to cause such havoc on the citizens of this beautiful country. We need to March for ALL of our lives!!!

 

[pronstar]

It’s unbelievable that they voted for this.

The company’s market cap, though ridiculous, is $50B.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[regor]

Now you see why people call him a genius.

Pffft, I call that a corrupt scumbag.

 

[wsuwrhr]

In libtard land, it seems to be par for the course.

Pffft, I call that a corrupt scumbag.

 

[lbhsbz]

Pffft, I call that a corrupt scumbag.

A corrupt scumbag making $5B year.... I'd take that title for half the pay.

 

[River Lynchmob]

A corrupt scumbag making $5B year.... I'd take that title for half the pay.

I'd take it for 1/10th of 1% a year.

 

[regor]

A corrupt scumbag making $5B year.... I'd take that title for half the pay.

I get it, big money is a game changer when it comes to decision making. I'm a believer that we'll meet our maker some day and have to be accountable for our lives, but who knows, I could be wrong and missed out on some dirty coin.

Lord knows I've got some issues to answer for already!!!

 

[Mandelon]

Is he just running a scam for as long as he can? Obviously they make cars but they lose money like water over a waterfall... LOL

 

[500bbc]

But, but, but...GREEN!

 

[lbhsbz]

I'm a believer that we'll meet our maker some day and have to be accountable for our lives

Lord knows I've got some issues to answer for already!!!

I'd take my chances and bribe him when I get there.

 

[Raffit78]

 

[wsuwrhr]

Good luck with that approach.....

Id put some solid work in to plan B.



Brian

I'd take my chances and bribe him when I get there.

 

[Yellowboat]

A corrupt scumbag making $5B year.... I'd take that title for half the pay.

I would do it for 1/100 th. I mean 5 million is such a crappy pay check.

 

[Singleton]

The BoD of Tesla needs to be held accountable, this pay package is insane. Then again, Musk hand picked everyone on the BoD’s and I believe they have not documented what each BoD member receives in compensation (one of the SEC requests). Total scam company that will be sold pennies on the dollar to Ford or GM.

 

[Mandelon]

Like Solyndra but so much bigger.... House of Cards.

American investment manager and short-seller extraordinaire Jim Chanos claims Tesla is “headed for a brick wall.” Having deemed the automaker as structurally unprofitable, Chanos said, “Three years ago, this company was supposed to be making money [today]. And now, it’s supposed to be making money by 2020. I’m guessing by 2019, we’ll hear about 2025.”

However, while Tesla has taken on massive amounts of debt to ensure its evolution as company, investors haven’t seemed to mind. Its stock price has climbed from $33 a share in 2013 to almost $380 in September of 2017. As a short-seller, Chanos says he’s lost money on the company in the past since the stock price never seems to go down, and that’s what he finds the most alarming.


“Nobody is buying Tesla stock based upon the current business,” he said. “It’s all based on the future and the hope for half-a-million to a million Model 3s per year.”

“But let me make an important point, one of the reasons this company was successful and that Musk had a vision ahead of everyone else is that he made electric vehicles sexy,” Chanos told Bloomberg. “The Model S was a sexy car.”

Unfortunately, Chanos also noticed that established automakers have seen Tesla’s hand and are now working to deliver some legitimate competition. He believes this will be the company’s downfall, noting that it has lost the lead in autonomous driving development to manufacturers like General Motors and Audi.

Chanos is probably most famous for successfully predicting the financial implosion of Enron in 2001 — and he claims to have noticed things reminiscent of that corporate disaster in Tesla. However, while the automaker has lost a vice president of business development, two software chiefs for Autopilot, and the director of its battery technology in the last 12 months, there are reasons to doubt Chanos’ Humpty Dumpty scenario.

Overvalued as its stock price may be, Tesla has begun to diversity itself — taking on mainstream, lower-priced vehicles with the Model 3 while also developing an electric semi truck. It would need to truly muck up both of these products to cripple Wall Street’s current confidence in the brand. Fortunately for Chanos, Tesla’s launch of the Model 3 hasn’t been without problems. But that could change with suppliers now reporting that they are operating under Tesla’s guidance of 5,000 units per week.

That said, the stock market is a fickle mistress operating under the influence of imagery bullshit and faith-based investing. This is where Chanos’ final prediction, where Musk departs Tesla to focus on one of his other companies in the coming years, comes into play. Without Elon, the company may lose that je ne sais quoi that makes it irresistible to investors. But the CEO has issued no hints that he’ll leave the company anytime soon, so any claim that he might take a hike is purely speculative — sort of like the stock market itself.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The BoD of Tesla needs to be held accountable, this pay package is insane. Then again, Musk hand picked everyone on the BoD’s and I believe they have not documented what each BoD member receives in compensation (one of the SEC requests). Total scam company that will be sold pennies on the dollar to Ford or GM.

They are all hoping for a buyout.. Silicon Valley style.

 

[nameisbond]

In your posts #88, #91, and #93, you champion Tesla so much, and you state, the Euro auto companies are following Musk, and Tesla sells Millions of dollars of cars every quarter, ....

But he is STILL BLEEDING MORE OUT THAN HE BRINGS IN .

Are ALL those EURO auto makers also FOLLOWING MUSK OFF the CLIFF ?

HELL NO ! Those companies are winners, and their countries only put government money into WINNERS, and NEVER so much tax payer money into MULTIPLE, start up companies, with so many convoluted practices .

Wall Street has and always will PUMP UP the "best thing since sliced bread", right up until the whole thing TANKS and they all lose their money . If this is "a tech thing", and not a "car thing", the investors here have short memories indeed .

WHAT could this country do with all the millions Musk loses every quarter ?

Schools, VA hospitals, job retraining, college debt, military services, infrastructure, pay down the national debt ..............

But wall street gets their stock at a discount and get extra stock via warrants to buy at the discount in the future. You the buyers of wall street stocks are the only losers in a stock bust..................................

 

[500bbc]

Is he just running a scam for as long as he can? Obviously they make cars but they lose money like water over a waterfall... LOL

He had his last name changed from Ponzi to Musk years ago.

 

[pronstar]

I wonder if he made that salary demand with a straight face?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[lbhsbz]

I would do it for 1/100 th. I mean 5 million is such a crappy pay check.

With that kinda money you could start a boating website

 

[Flying_Lavey]

They are all hoping for a buyout.. Silicon Valley style.

I believe this is most of the reasoning for the huge valuation on the company. It's traded and treated like a tech company vs a car company. A tech company is largely valued upon its intellectual concepts and executions of it's software. I don't think Tesla should be treated as such since there are other options on the market for consumers. I wouldn't be surprised if most all stock holders get boned BIG TIME soon. Hopefully it happens when whoever is in the White House won't bail them out.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Uncle Dave]

I'm just really getting tired of all these innocent people dying behind the autonomous killing machine Tesla. When will there be a rule that said cars will no longer be on the streets that we all commute on to cause such havoc on the citizens of this beautiful country. We need to March for ALL of our lives!!!


View attachment 630313

But you aren't tired of people killing thousands more than the automated cars?

Everyone focuses on every tesla fatality but ignore thousands of others.

Its hilarious.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

But you aren't tired of people killing thousands more than the automated cars?

Everyone focuses on every tesla fatality but ignore thousands of others.

Its hilarious.

I find that odd as well.

I also find it hilarious that people think they will be able to sleep, text, watch a movie or do whatever else while their automated car gets them safely to where they are going.

That said, pretty much all the automated car accidents could have been avoided if the driver was paying attention and not doing something else.

 

[Raffit78]

But you aren't tired of people killing thousands more than the automated cars?

Everyone focuses on every tesla fatality but ignore thousands of others.

Its hilarious.

Sorry it was supposed to be humorous. Guess I’ll add more wink wink emojis


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[grumpy88]

I find that odd as well.

I also find it hilarious that people think they will be able to sleep, text, watch a movie or do whatever else while their automated car gets them safely to where they are going.

That said, pretty much all the automated car accidents could have been avoided if the driver was paying attention and not doing something else.

What the hell is the point of having a self driving car if you need to drive it ?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

What the hell is the point of having a self driving car if you need to drive it ?

Exactly. I’m not interested until there is no steering wheel. Until then I will still need to pay insurance and am ultimately responsible for whatever the car does.

 

[arch stanton]

To Big to Fail ? could be the plan all along and would work with Hillary in office but I don't think Trump will pony up !

 

[probablecause]

Stock Market doesn't even look like it flinched.