Tesla Continues to collapse.

[was thatguy]

The future of propulsion is in magnetics.

 

[AzGeo]

Tesla buyers are not buying P100D ludicrous for 150k because they are saving the planet, they are buying it because it is an emotional purchase no different than someone driving a 488GTB every day in traffic or buying a big boat.

Is Tesla a long-term business model that can succeed? Who knows?

But the buyer of the P100D doesn't really give a shit, he just cares he has a car that can at least til the next light give the 488 a run for its money.

The future of propulsion is in magnetics.

Having a "cult following" is nice "cocktail hour conversation", but the fact that Tesla is having "normal or abnormal" production problems with another announced model roll out, is again an area of major financial concern . However, understanding the scale of the dollars, the scale of the problems, coupled with where MOST of the money came from, Musk has "learned" to enjoy flying with his tail on fire, these days . HE has little to lose, if it all falls down .

Ferrari, Ford GT, Maserati, and other makes of equal performance, and equal following, notice the vast differences in selling prices . The "other makers" offer their contender at their "perceived business sustaining" prices . Tesla offers it's product "far below par" because Musk isn't losing money, well not his money ..............

The great performance of the Tesla is a tribute to it's overall design . But I surely hope that the US government did not "invest" in a "cult performance vehicle", disguised as "a help to mankind" .

"The minute you think you have THE FASTEST, someone passes you by" ................

 

[Sleek-Jet]

"Unless someone rewires the universe, no large change is coming in regards to battery storage"

That's what I took from that. The supposed properties of solid-state batteries (lighter weight per amp/hour storage, more cycles in its life span, ability to be further discharged without causing damage, etc) would lend themselves VERY well to mobile platforms.

There won't be any quantum leaps, or order of magnitude advances in chemical batteries.

R&D is a good thing, and advances are always welcome.

Now if you want to talk over the horizon technology, we can go into things like room temperature super-conductor motors and circuits.

 

[SBMech]

There won't be any quantum leaps, or order of magnitude advances in chemical batteries.

R&D is a good thing, and advances are always welcome.

Now if you want to talk over the horizon technology, we can go into things like room temperature super-conductor motors and circuits.

I would love to chat about that topic with someone actually in the R&D of it. Start a new post? I know the basic principles, but did not know they were even close to actual working models.

 

[rrrr]

Battery tech will always be a stop gap, since even using very durable (expensive) materials you are still using chemical reactions to generate electron flow.

Once someone comes out with a fission or fusion generator, THEN you will see the entire world change.

Until that point, IMO, it's a constant dog and pony show merry-go-round where nothing is really getting fixed, they are just swapping the blame to something that is politically or media "buzz" currently.

.

I think chemical batteries have reached a dead end. There's no magic discovery there waiting to happen.

People are so used to incredible advances in semiconductors and computing they assume a miracle is forthcoming in batteries. I routinely see posts on forums I frequent that say something like "battery capacities are going to double in the next XX years".

They don't have a minute's worth of scientific education, and no knowledge of chemistry and physics, but they make these pronouncements as if they are fact.

 

[AzGeo]

So what you are saying is ...............

.

I think chemical batteries have reached a dead end. There's no magic discovery there waiting to happen.

People are so used to incredible advances in semiconductors and computing they assume a miracle is forthcoming in batteries. I routinely see posts on forums I frequent that say something like "battery capacities are going to double in the next XX years".

They don't have a minute's worth of scientific education, and no knowledge of chemistry and physics, but they make these pronouncements as if they are fact.

All that alien technology we have been stealing out in area 51, and there were NO BATTERIES on any of those spaceships ?

Sounds like a "vast right wing conspiracy to me" ..............

 

[530RL]

I would still rather have the Ferrari...nothing like that sweet sound on the pipe...

The v8's are twin turbo now. They don't make much noise and are pretty quiet.

Would you invest in tesla?

No I would not but I am a fundamentalist, not a momentum player.

But my brother had a model S with over 100k miles and loved it and now has a model X with over 12k and loves it. His model S went coast to coast no problem.

Me, I am more into wasting my money on pollution.......

 

[lbhsbz]

.

I think chemical batteries have reached a dead end. There's no magic discovery there waiting to happen.

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/10/31/texas-engineers-develop-new-material-for-better-batteries

 

[Enen]

The v8's are twin turbo now. They don't make much noise and are pretty quiet.



No I would not but I am a fundamentalist, not a momentum player.

But my brother had a model S with over 100k miles and loved it and now has a model X with over 12k and loves it. His model S went coast to coast no problem.

Me, I am more into wasting my money on pollution.......

View attachment 600797

That car is gorgeous!

 

[mesquito_creek]

IF 100 of your neighbors (2 mile radius) came home from work between 4.00PM and 7.00PM, each plugged in their car when they got home, how much would that effect your local power grid ? Now consider that kind of LOAD, nationwide, all at the same hours .

On this one particular point above, the answer is ZERO. The utility industry is smart enough to have already built in time of day pricing to move that load into a better time window through pricing incentives. The grid is more than adequate to handle large increases in EV demand. The focus on grid modernization is flattening the demand curve to serve the load. The electric utility industry is bullish on EVs. The national demand for electricity across the states is down due to efficiency gains across the spectrum. There are time when electricity may be free, or in the case of California, California has to pay us generators in Arizona to take their excess power. But don't worry the

 

[Ouderkirk]

Battery tech will always be a stop gap, since even using very durable (expensive) materials you are still using chemical reactions to generate electron flow.

Once someone comes out with a fission or fusion generator, THEN you will see the entire world change.

Until that point, IMO, it's a constant dog and pony show merry-go-round where nothing is really getting fixed, they are just swapping the blame to something that is politically or media "buzz" currently.

The one thing that is never mentioned in this battery technology or even solar panels, is the amount of energy and the environmental costs of the raw materials needed to create them.

There are the mines where these materials come from and the copious amounts of carbon fuels to power the machines to excavate those materials. Then there is the amount of energy to refine these materials into pure enough forms to actually create the things they are used in. Then there is the energy used to actually create these things.

The real question needs to be asked.....if we were to calculate the total energy input and then subtract that from the total energy output over the expected useful life. Is that number less than or equal to zero, or is there a net positive? If it is positive, what percentage positive?

We never seem to get an answer to that question.

 

[Wheeler]

Anyone remember the Dale?

I heard it had problems with the tranny.

 

[was thatguy]

The one thing that is never mentioned in this battery technology or even solar panels, is the amount of energy and the environmental costs of the raw materials needed to create them.

There are the mines where these materials come from and the copious amounts of carbon fuels to power the machines to excavate those materials. Then there is the amount of energy to refine these materials into pure enough forms to actually create the things they are used in. Then there is the energy used to actually create these things.

The real question needs to be asked.....if we were to calculate the total energy input and then subtract that from the total energy output over the expected useful life. Is that number less than or equal to zero, or is there a net positive? If it is positive, what percentage positive?

We never seem to get an answer to that question.

 

[AzGeo]

On this one particular point above, the answer is ZERO. The utility industry is smart enough to have already built in time of day pricing to move that load into a better time window through pricing incentives. The grid is more than adequate to handle large increases in EV demand. The focus on grid modernization is flattening the demand curve to serve the load. The electric utility industry is bullish on EVs. The national demand for electricity across the states is down due to efficiency gains across the spectrum. There are time when electricity may be free, or in the case of California, California has to pay us generators in Arizona to take their excess power. But don't worry the

The main grid you know of, may be able to handle the load, but local transformer stations are not . Hell, local wires (on poles or under ground) are not currently capable of handling a heavy and increasing load for the overnight charging of hundreds of EV's . The transformer and wires that power our property in the SFV, have not been updated in four+ decades, and the "local station' was last "repaired" (not upgraded) after the 1994 earth quake . The local station is close by and was built in 1964, but it is fed by a station that is "outgrowing it's property lines", due to increasing demand and dates back to the mid-1950's . Don't forget that when (or if) EV's become more commonplace, retail parking lots (Northridge Mall) will also "offer charging stations", and once again an additional load on a local system that is (minimally) 45 years old .

Of course the electric utilities are all for EV's, the more people use them, the more they need charging, the higher the overall demand for electric power . Considering even HALF the energy now created by gas and diesel vehicles could be converted to 100% electric power in the next 15 years (or less), I'm sure the utilities are salivating over their perceived futures .

I'm also sure that many municipalities across the country will need to up grade or replace much of their current "power transfer and delivery systems", in anticipation or after the fact in desperation, of supporting a mass influx of EV's .

Guess who is paying now and will pay much more in the future for all these "required improvements", ALL of us, with or without owning an EV ...............

You mention "there are time when electricity may be free " . You are kidding RIGHT ? NO utility will EVER reduce it's stranglehold on the paying public sheeple, and the prices will also never go down . USAGE may lower or raise your power bill, but the RATE will never go down . They are not in business to be our FRIENDS .

I can't use Havasu as an example here, since it has "one power cord at the north end and one in the south" . Lightning striking ONE WIRE will blacken the south or the north HALF of this town . We are absolutely not ready for a "mass EV invasion" here, I wonder where else has these same conditions ...............

 

[SBMech]

The v8's are twin turbo now. They don't make much noise and are pretty quiet.

They still SOUND like a Ferrari though, V8, V12 whatever...when you grab third gear with the pedal mashed hard and hit triple digits fast...nothing like it.

They can make all the electric cars they want faster than shit...still boring as fuck.

Driving a fast car has always been an "experience" for me..the smells, the noise, the adrenaline...

Take that away you might as well be driving a fucking sewing machine.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

They still SOUND like a Ferrari though, V8, V12 whatever...when you grab third gear with the pedal mashed hard and hit triple digits fast...nothing like it.

They can make all the electric cars they want faster than shit...still boring as fuck.

Driving a fast car has always been an "experience" for me..the smells, the noise, the adrenaline...

Take that away you might as well be driving a fucking sewing machine.

Yeah, but that would be the holly grail of sewing machines. Lol!

 

[hallett21]

i wonder who hurts more feelings, Model S or outboards lol

 

[SBMech]

i wonder who hurts more feelings, Model S or outboards lol

I would have to say outboards....

No one I know who is into cars gives a shit about Tesla. Like I said above, if it's not loud and nasty sounding, it's boring....

Besides, there are still plenty of cars faster than a Tesla. They just have to be driven on a track.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

i wonder who hurts more feelings, Model S or outboards lol

The only people that think they are fast don't go over 80.

Stoplight to stoplight they can be quick to very quick depending on the model. This is the only place they shine. From a roll or at high speed, it feels like an average sedan. They hold the road decently, and are nice to drive. It is not a sports car however.

 

[hallett21]

The only people that think they are fast don't go over 80.

Stoplight to stoplight they can be quick to very quick depending on the model. This is the only place they shine. From a roll or at high speed, it feels like an average sedan. They hold the road decently, and are nice to drive. It is not a sports car however.

Just my opinion but you described 95% of E63, M5, and RS owners lol

 

[rrrr]

.

This is the Norwegian Epic, a 1,000' long cruise ship weighing in at 156,000 GRT. It carries 4,100 passengers and has a crew of 1,700.

It cost $1 billion dollars to build.

Tesla is going to lose over $2 billion in 2017, enough to build two copies of the Epic.

Perhaps this will help some of you understand their financial troubles in a less abstract manner than looking at an amount on a webpage.

 

[rrrr]

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/10/31/texas-engineers-develop-new-material-for-better-batteries

So far it's a six square inch laboratory piece. Let me know when it's built into millions of Li-ion cells and works as claimed.

 

[wsuwrhr]

A friend of mine has a black Tesla something, whatever the hotrod model is. The car is bad ass, looks bad ass.

He always ribs me about how it would whoop my Magnum SRTs ass. I just laugh, "Great, lets race to Vegas or the river. Ill give you a head start." That humbles him.

 

[lbhsbz]

.

This is the Norwegian Epic, a 1,000' long cruise ship weighing in at 156,000 GRT. It carries 4,100 passengers and has a crew of 1,700.

It cost $1 billion dollars to build.

Tesla is going to lose over $2 billion in 2017, enough to build two copies of the Epic.

Perhaps this will help some of you understand their financial troubles in a less abstract manner than an amount on a webpage.

That certainly puts things in perspective. If I were Musk, I'd turn the lights off in the tesla plant on the first of the year and have a cruise ship built for myself instead. The shareholders would be less pissed since I cut losses 50% compared to last year, plus I'd have a bad ass boat.

 

[GRADS]

.

This is the Norwegian Epic, a 1,000' long cruise ship weighing in at 156,000 GRT. It carries 4,100 passengers and has a crew of 1,700.

It cost $1 billion dollars to build.

Tesla is going to lose over $2 billion in 2017, enough to build two copies of the Epic.

Perhaps this will help some of you understand their financial troubles in a less abstract manner than an amount on a webpage.

I could give two ships about how much money they're losing, Elon Musk is still a genius.

 

[wsuwrhr]

That certainly puts things in perspective. If I were Musk, I'd turn the lights off in the tesla plant on the first of the year and have a cruise ship built for myself instead. The shareholders would be less pissed since I cut losses 50% compared to last year, plus I'd have a bad ass boat.

I think at that point, you would have a bad ass ship

 

[Flying_Lavey]

That certainly puts things in perspective. If I were Musk, I'd turn the lights off in the tesla plant on the first of the year and have a cruise ship built for myself instead. The shareholders would be less pissed since I cut losses 50% compared to last year, plus I'd have a bad ass boat.

And it would still be delivered before the model 3!! Hahahahaha!!

 

[4Waters]

I could give two ships about how much money they're losing, Elon Musk is still a genius.

Not trying to sound like a complete dick as you hear it enough from everyone else, but it's not your hard earned money he is losing, it's mine and RD's rrrr's rivermobsters etc..... He is a genius in the fact he has found a way to steal money (tax money) from the government without any repercussions.

 

[Devilman]

Not trying to sound like a complete dick as you hear it enough from everyone else, but it's not your hard earned money he is losing, it's mine and RD's rrrr's rivermobsters etc..... He is a genius in the fact he has found a way to steal money (tax money) from the government without any repercussions.

I was thinking more along the lines that he is a genius at fucking people over & making them think they liked it, but guess that works too lol.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Any thoughts as to how far it will "collapse" to?

1/3/5 years?

UD

 

[hallett21]

Something else to consider about Musk.

He's selling you on the Tesla which would probably push you to consider adding solar to your home to offset your current electrical plus the charging of the car. The final piece to the puzzle is getting you to purchase a house batery(batteries). If you Implemented all of those you really wouldn't be putting excess load on the current grid.

Smart of him to push the energy production and storage from the utility to the end consumer.

All this being said without factoring in government subsidies, tax breaks, whether solar is efficient or not etc lol

 

[530RL]

.

This is the Norwegian Epic, a 1,000' long cruise ship weighing in at 156,000 GRT. It carries 4,100 passengers and has a crew of 1,700.

It cost $1 billion dollars to build.

Tesla is going to lose over $2 billion in 2017, enough to build two copies of the Epic.

Perhaps this will help some of you understand their financial troubles in a less abstract manner than an amount on a webpage.

That ship is also driven by two electric high torque density induction motors, sort of like a Tesla...........

It only burns fossil fuels to make electricity...

 

[Uncle Dave]

That ship is also driven by two electric high torque density induction motors, sort of like a Tesla...........

It only burns fossil fuels to make electricity...

Yup.

Train type drive system- big genset makes juice to drive motors.

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Just my opinion but you described 95% of E63, M5, and RS owners lol

I agree. Those are who cross shop a Model S or X.

You are buying a Tesla because you want to be seen in one. Not because it is cheaper. A regular 5 series or E class is cheaper than a model S is to own.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Any thoughts as to how far it will "collapse" to?

1/3/5 years?

UD

I don't think it will collapse, I think it will settle into what it really is.. a boutique car company... or they will be bought out by some other company.

 

[was thatguy]

That ship is also driven by two electric high torque density induction motors, sort of like a Tesla...........

It only burns fossil fuels to make electricity...

Like a modern SCR or AC variable drill rig...

 

[AzGeo]

I don't think it will collapse, I think it will settle into what it really is.. a boutique car company... or they will be bought out by some other company.

Whom do you think would "buy them out", when most of the federal grants and the "happy stockholders", are used up ? HA HA

Wouldn't it be more "business like" to buy a used one and "back engineer it" , then develop your own assembly lines ? Then run it like a "for profit business" .

Introduce your "new and improved EV", the day after Tesla folds .

It seems like the local collective "business logic" and opinion's, displayed in the ULTRA thread, have no correlation to how Musk similarly runs his businesses . Just because Ultra is working in the "hundreds of thousands", while Musk is working in the "hundreds of millions", some here label them "crooks or geniuses" .

A single boat or a line of cars with "later and later" projected delivery dates, seem very familiar to my perceptions of business practices, here .

No company can please everyone, but with today's new business practices, can we at least please someone ?

 

[pronstar]

George, don't forget that Tesla sells a lot of cars that aren't the Mode 3, 2,000+ per month in the US alone, and 20,000 cars globally per quarter, and to the tune of $3B per quarter in sales (before losses of course).

If you feel the Model S is not a viable product, then the Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Audi A7/A8, Porsche Panamera, Lexus LS and the entire class of prestige-luxury sedans are also not viable products, because Tesla outsells them all.

Whether or not the company is a viable business is certainly up for debate, but they sell a lot of very expensive cars and all luxury carmakers are scrambling to put products to market to counter.

But your posts almost make it sound like they aren't selling any cars at all.

 

[AzGeo]

George, don't forget that Tesla sells a lot of cars that aren't the Mode 3, 2,000+ per month in the US alone, and 20,000 cars globally per quarter, and to the tune of $3B per quarter in sales (before losses of course).

If you feel the Model S is not a viable product, then the Mercedes-Benz S-Class, Audi A7/A8, Porsche Panamera, Lexus LS and the entire class of prestige-luxury sedans are also not viable products, because Tesla outsells them all.

Whether or not the company is a viable business is certainly up for debate, but they sell a lot of very expensive cars and all luxury carmakers are scrambling to put products to market to counter.

But your posts almost make it sound like they aren't selling any cars at all.

HA HA HA

You just happened to point out other makers who are in Profitable Businesses, did you notice that ?

Please stop talking "LOVE" and start talking BUSINESS !!!

He is losing "free money" (not his own) like a boat with a gaping hole in it !

In crude terms: "he is a whore who is paying her tricks to do her, with PIMP money" .

Pretty soon his pimp is going to want a little RETURN on his investment, but all indications point to ANOTHER DELAY .

I too could "sell a lot of boats" if I gave them away at "half price", since I didn't actually figure all the costs into each build . But then I got a shit ton of federal cash, so I don't care about costs, I care about the KARMA my product exudes ...............

 

[rrrr]

I could give two ships about how much money they're losing, Elon Musk is still a genius.

He's a genius because he has built his empire using money obtained from the government and loans. There have been similar "geniuses" like Bernie Madoff, Kenneth Lay, and Jeffrey Skilling.

Musk hasn't contributed one bit of intellectual weight to Tesla or SpaceX.

He has used the financial advice of individuals that are masters of markets manipulation to build Tesla. The car itself is impressive, it's the product of decades of engineering work by hundreds of engineers, compacted into fourteen calendar years. Although Musk has played an instrumental role on the financial side in Tesla’s gestation, the company was founded by a pair of engineers who were working on creating a serious electric automobile since the 1990s.

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning incorporated Tesla Motors in 2003 and personally financed the company until the series A around of funding in 2004. Around this time, they pitched their business idea to Elon Musk who had a similar vision concerning the future of electric cars.

Musk decided to invest $7.5 million of his own money into the company which also got him a seat on the company’s board. In May 2007 a fourth round of financing commenced which brought the total investments concerning Tesla Motors to $105 million. Amongst prominent holders were Google’s cofounders Sergey Brin and Larry Page.

Since then Tesla has raised and burned through almost $15 billion.

Here's an interesting thesis by three Auburn University students. They have examined Tesla's revenue, sales, and debt. The information has then been projected forward to the mid 2020s, and they conclude that Tesla will not survive because they cannot generate or borrow enough cash to service existing debt and expand the business at the same time.

http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/tesla_motors.pdf

 

[pronstar]

George, if selling $100k+++ electric cars is such a losing proposition, why on earth is every carmaker spending cubic dollars to bring competitors to market, in essence following Tesla off the cliff?

 

[SBMech]

George, if selling $100k+++ electric cars is such a losing proposition, why on earth is every carmaker spending cubic dollars to bring competitors to market, in essence following Tesla off the cliff?

They are bending bro. The outspoken few who control the media redirect the Sheeple.

No one knows where this will all end up but the EPA has continually fucked the US consumer for years, Tesla is, and has been supported by YOUR money.

The CAFE requirements in the next 10 years are suicide to the current automakers.

They bend now, so that they will be present in the future.

 

[pronstar]

I'm not a fanboy and have no idea what the future holds for Tesla. But they do sell lots and lots of an expensive product and generate a lot of cash...and they also burn thru it like nobody's business.

Their tech-like valuation of $50B is baffling, but they are building all the verticals in their company, not unlike what Amazon did. And Amazon made little money for quite a long time.

Obviously $6B in subsidies (across Tesla and SpaceX) makes a big difference.

But they do sell cars, and they do generate cash flow.

We'll see what Wall Street has the patience for in the coming months. The company's future rests on Model 3 production to ramp up, and strong sales because there's much less money to be made selling $35k cars.

 

[AzGeo]

George, if selling $100k+++ electric cars is such a losing proposition, why on earth is every carmaker spending cubic dollars to bring competitors to market, in essence following Tesla off the cliff?

BECAUSE they are spending their OWN MONEY, they all seek the "latest fad", but they are all VIABLE BUSINESSES . They WILL NOT fall off the cliff, they will wait and allow MUSK to show them HOW IT'S DONE .

Selling $100K, $1M, or $100M cars that LOSE MONEY, is not a business model the actual for profit car companies will probably follow, don't you agree ?

So why do you insist on trying to defend Musk and his "losing ventures" ?

NONE of those actual CAR MAKERS is following anyone off a cliff, only MUSK is the one who spends more than he brings in, CONTINUOUSLY, not one or two quarters, but almost EVERY QUARTER .(all but one)

IF the "100% electric car" has a viable worldwide demand, then many of today's viable makers will step up and fill that void, WITHOUT GOVERNMENT FINANCING A MAJORITY OF THE BILL .

You seem to know the heartbeat of the auto industry, has the European Union put anywhere NEAR the kind of money the US has put into Tesla ?

Has Asia, put any "hundreds of millions" into their car makers, trying to take the lead in this field ?

NO, only Tesla sells their product for $35K or $100K, while their costs to produce them are over 200% above selling prices, because they can do this as long as YOUR TAX DOLLARS KEEP ROLLING IN .

The MUSK story, may change soon ........

 

[pronstar]

George, Asia and Europe literally subsidize all automakers, and not just EV's.

The government of Lower Sadony owns 30% of VW as an example.

And the Japanese government has been accused of manipulating their currency to keep automaker profits high.

And then we can add in subsidies on the purchasing end for EV's which (depending on region) are often significantly more than US tax credits.

You seem to take an aggressive "you must be a Tesla lover" tone to anything that doesn't agree with you 100%.

I've spelled out issues I have with the company, but am not so jaded to dismiss how they manage to generate cash to the tune of $10B /annually, either.

Or that they have a product that's so far without peer, and an owner demographic that's quite impressive from a marketing POV.

And your figures are flat wrong that it costs them 200% more to produce than the selling price. If that was the case, and when you add-in their reinvestment costs to own the verticals for battery production, their losses would be significantly more staggering than they are now.

Their car making operations aren't losing $5B annually. I have no idea where you're getting this info from.

 

[rrrr]

George, if selling $100k+++ electric cars is such a losing proposition, why on earth is every carmaker spending cubic dollars to bring competitors to market, in essence following Tesla off the cliff?

Those other carmakers aren't building 100% of their product funded by money that is costing upwards of 7.7% on the bond markets like Tesla is doing. Tesla is paying over $1 billion a year on debt service. The other companies aren't losing $2 billion a year like Tesla. The other car makers have mature vehicle platforms that only require the insertion of an electric powertrain into an existing product that is already profitable. Mercedes has almost ten years of experience in building electric power units through their Formula 1 involvement.

 

[rrrr]

George, Asia and Europe literally subsidize all automakers, and not just EV's.

The government of Lower Saxony owns 30% of VW as an example.

Saxony's ownership stake in Volkswagen is hardly a subsidy. VW made a $5.4 billion profit in 2016, in spite of having to recover from a $15 billion payout in the emissions scandal. That resulted in a $1.62 billion payment to Saxony as their share of the profits.

As we all know, in California government cash subsidies total $9,000 for EV buyers. The majority of EV tax incentives in European countries don't come close to that.

Here's a list of EV subsidies for European countries.

https://insideevs.com/overview-incentives-buying-electric-vehicles-eu/

 

[rrrr]

That ship is also driven by two electric high torque density induction motors, sort of like a Tesla...........

It only burns fossil fuels to make electricity...

"Only"? Those fossil fuels provide the motive power that moves the ship. It doesn't matter how the conversion is made, the fact is the ship burns oil.

 

[AzGeo]

George, Asia and Europe literally subsidize all automakers, and not just EV's.

The government of Lower Sadony owns 30% of VW as an example.

And the Japanese government has been accused of manipulating their currency to keep automaker profits high.

And then we can add in subsidies on the purchasing end for EV's which (depending on region) are often significantly more than US tax credits.

You seem to take an aggressive "you must be a Tesla lover" tone to anything that doesn't agree with you 100%.

I've spelled out issues I have with the company, but am not so jaded to dismiss how they manage to generate cash to the tune of $10B /annually, either.

Or that they have a product that's so far without peer, and an owner demographic that's quite impressive from a marketing POV.

And your figures are flat wrong that it costs them 200% more to produce than the selling price. If that was the case, and when you add-in their reinvestment costs to own the verticals for battery production, their losses would be significantly more staggering than they are now.

Their car making operations aren't losing $5B annually. I have no idea where you're getting this info from.

OH, I AM SO REAL .........

NO other country or group of countries or banking groups would allow the kind of losses Tesla has reported, and continued to fund them .

They had ONE QUARTER that had MORE FEDERAL INCOME than it pissed into the wind . That's a great business model for you ? Musk should just print the US dollars he needs at this point .

I am real and you keep going back to "staggering loss numbers, while calling this deal a winner" .

When is Tesla going to break EVEN ? When will it MAKE MONEY ? YOU CAN'T answer that because Musk doesn't know .

You continue to champion Tesla, yet they are doing EXACTLY what Ultra boats is doing, but with government money .

Tesla takes orders, gives a delivery date, and then changes that delivery date to suit themselves .

Tesla can and does "manipulate timelines" as they wish, because they have been operating (burning up) government grants, and they have repeatedly shown NO RESPECT to their CUSTOMERS, do all the other VIABLE auto makers do business in this manner ? HELL NO !

The other world wide builders do have "government help", but they sure as hell don't PISS MONEY INTO THE WIND like Tesla has done for years .

Under Obama, this country BENT OVER BACKWARDS for anything "green" or "renewable", and frankly, the whole world wants these machines to succeed, but other countries have LIMITS and the US government under Obama, did not .

Could GM , Ford, Chrysler/Fiat, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, SEMA, Allison/Penske , General Electric, Boeing, etc ...... have gone this far with a more organised business and a shorter LESS COSTLY path to profits ?

The USA is now stuck with Tesla, no matter how much ROMANCE you wish to place here, it's a total business loser . The product has cost so much more than it is sold for in the marketplace, that it has now become the "whipping boy" for real companies to "learn and avoid" .

So the TESLA is the jewel of the motoring world, and the US taxpayers are the SPONSORS of that feat .

I think I'll go down and buy one tomorrow, OH ! I forgot, no one can tell me when my personal money or my tax money will ever be able to buy one .....................

Dream out your asses with your own money, and allow my tax money to go to my country and community .

 

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"It only burns fossil fuels to make electricity..." > best way way to make power with efficiency. Diesel electric locomotives still rule moving heavy stuff without catenary wires. No wonder, volskwagen embracing the hybrid system for boats for instance.