Tesla Continues to collapse.

[Uncle Dave]

Another option coming, a friend of mine is one of the engineers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/rivian-scores-1point3-billion-investment-from-trowe-price-others.html?__source=iosappshare|com.apple.UIKit.activity.Message

Should be good for all of us if they get to going.

I love to see American Tech succeed.

UD

 

[Spudsbud]

Tesla closed at an All Time high today! 12/23/19
Dont bet against Musky !!

 

[westair]

Glad to see they're doing better ….. maybe I'll be getting paid soon for the ac job we did for their new building in Carlsbad back in Aug/Sept

 

[pronstar]

Lets revisit this discussion -

Where is the 59,995.00 C8 Vette at? That's where Chevy says the car starts at.

UD

Dunno, I don’t work in automotive or advertising anymore.

But when I did, I was tasked with following the law...I didn’t write or enforce the law.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[highvoltagehands]

God damn! Where’d everyone go? Tesla success run all the haters off? It really is pathetic that a bunch of peeps on here would root for the demise of all American car and rocket builder that’s doing something good for everyone just because he’s using green technology based out of California. They’d rather see Tesla fail and continue rooting for carbon puffing foreign built American Auto company that receives tax breaks and then shuts down American plants so their foreign ones can increase their billion dollar profit margins and pad the pockets of a select few. Thank you Uncle Dave for Having the wisdom and stones to standup for Tesla and the great benefit this visionary company provides.
Let the stone casting begin.....

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Lets revisit this discussion -

Where is the 59,995.00 C8 Vette at? That's where Chevy says the car starts at.

UD

Same place the $35k 300+ mile range Model 3 is.. in Fantasy Land.

Now in 18 months when the C8 Z06 comes out, $59k Standard C8s will be all over the place.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

God damn! Where’d everyone go? Tesla success run all the haters off? It really is pathetic that a bunch of peeps on here would root for the demise of all American car and rocket builder that’s doing something good for everyone just because he’s using green technology based out of California. They’d rather see Tesla fail and continue rooting for carbon puffing foreign built American Auto company that receives tax breaks and then shuts down American plants so their foreign ones can increase their billion dollar profit margins and pad the pockets of a select few. Thank you Uncle Dave for Having the wisdom and stones to standup for Tesla and the great benefit this visionary company provides.
Let the stone casting begin.....

Replace Tesla with Trump and see who is rooting for America’s Success

All American?? Tesla is currently building is their biggest factory in China, it’s coming online right now. Tesla is no more or less American than any other car company.

It’s great that they got the stock price back up, but their market cap does not even reflect reality. They have over double the market cap of Ford.. little money in the bank, and their costs per car are higher and profits per car are drastically less than market leaders... It makes no sense.

Buy the stock or the cars and enjoy the ride though.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Same place the $35k 300+ mile range Model 3 is.. in Fantasy Land.

Now in 18 months when the C8 Z06 comes out, $59k Standard C8s will be all over the place.

not quite...... The 35K model 3 was made available in Feb. Existing orders were fulfilled, and it was available for a limited time.

Few wanted it but the orders were fulfilled.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Dunno, I don’t work in automotive or advertising anymore.

But when I did, I was tasked with following the law...I didn’t write or enforce the law.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

GM is doing exactly what you said the law wouldn't let them do, and that that tesla got away with.

Thing is GM, and everyone else has ALWAYS done it, which I pointed out quite dispassionately.

- but some of you guys tried to talk your way around this reality just to bash tesla -

So you guys ran with it while ignoring everyone elses SOP on the same matter.

When the car was made available no one acknowledged it and moved on to the next thing they didnt like about Tesla.

Now that an example of this is clearly out in the open - amnesia and backpedaling sets in.

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

not quite...... The 35K model 3 was made available in Feb. Existing orders were fulfilled, and it was available for a limited time.

Few wanted it but the orders were fulfilled.

UD

But that $35k model 3 still does not have the range and specs originally stated when the car was announced. You need a $50k car for that.

Notice that GM didn’t say I could get a 600 HP C8 Z06 for $59,999.99. If I want a $60k no option vette I can order one and be confident in the specs that were communicated upon debut.

This has been my only real problem with Tesla all along.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

GM is doing exactly what you said the law wouldn't let them do, and that that tesla got away with.

Thing is GM, and everyone else has ALWAYS done it, which I pointed out quite dispassionately.

- but some of you guys tried to talk your way around this reality just to bash tesla -

So you guys ran with it while ignoring everyone elses SOP on the same matter.

When the car was made available no one acknowledged it and moved on to the next thing they didnt like about Tesla.

Now that an example of this is clearly out in the open - amnesia and backpedaling sets in.

UD

Am I missing something UD? Did GM raise the Vette base price above $60k? If so that is for sure is BS. If a dealer is using their allotment to order high option showroom cars that is a different discussion. You still have the ability to order the no option car though dealers in the dealer network.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Replace Tesla with Trump and see who is rooting for America’s Success

All American?? Tesla is currently building is their biggest factory in China, it’s coming online right now. Tesla is no more or less American than any other car company.

It’s great that they got the stock price back up, but their market cap does not even reflect reality. They have over double the market cap of Ford.. little money in the bank, and their costs per car and profits per car are drastically less than market leaders... It makes no sense.

Buy the stock or the cars and enjoy the ride though.

Tesla and Trump are two completely separate topics I dont understand what you mean about replacing one with the other?

Yes all American. I'm not sure what you are saying in regards to China. It isnt their biggest factory.

It seems you are trying to say that if you open up manufacturing in China that you aren't an American company any more?


Wall Street makes no sense lots of times. I agree Tesla valuation doesnt seem to make sense.

UD

 

[500bbc]

But that $35k model 3 still does not have the range and specs originally stated when the car was announced. You need a $50k car for that.

Notice that GM didn’t say I could get a 600 HP C8 Z06 for $59,999.99. If I want a $60k no option vette I can order one and be confident in the specs that were communicated upon debut.

This has been my only real problem with Tesla all along.

Does the Federal government give tax credits to C-8 buyers and green credits to GM for building it?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Am I missing something UD? Did GM raise the Vette base price above $60k?

But that $35k model 3 still does not have the range and specs originally stated when the car was announced. You need a $50k car for that.

Notice that GM didn’t say I could get a 600 HP C8 Z06 for $59,999.99. If I want a $60k no option vette I can order one and be confident in the specs that were communicated upon debut.

This has been my only real problem with Tesla all along.

Pretty sure it did meet the range quoted - and you could even get aupilot on it which wasn't supposed to be an option.

Im not saying GM said you could get a 600HP Z06 for 59995.

They said you could get a c8 for 59,995 - you cant.

Can you find one for sale anywhere for that price?

2020's run is sold out so you cant order one anymore.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Does the Federal government give tax credits to C-8 buyers and green credits to GM for building it?

No but they give the same tax credits to ANY foreign automaker who sell their products here like Nissan and Kia, everyone making an EV can do the same.

Gm got them for the Volt and continue to get them for the Bolt.

Telsa gets nothing unique anyone else doing the same wouldn't.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Am I missing something UD? Did GM raise the Vette base price above $60k? If so that is for sure is BS. If a dealer is using their allotment to order high option showroom cars that is a different discussion. You still have the ability to order the no option car though dealers in the dealer network.

Whats missing is the 60K vette.

Is there a single showroom in the US with one I can go buy at that price?

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Tesla and Trump are two completely separate topics I dont understand what you mean about replacing one with the other?

Yes all American. I'm not sure what you are saying in regards to China. It inst their biggest factory

It seems you are trying to say that if you open up manufacturing in China that you aren't an American company any more?


Wall Street makes no sense lots of times. I agree Tesla valuation doesnt seem to make sense.

UD

They say the main China gigafactory is capable of building 250,000 cars a year which is more than half of Tesla’s car production this year. Supposedly the sub factories that are being built now that are responsible building subsystems for the car, in aggregate will make China their biggest production facility.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Pretty sure it did meet the range quoted - and you could even get aupilot on it which wasn't supposed to be an option.

Im not saying GM said you could get a 600HP Z06 for 59995.

They said you could get a c8 for 59,995 - you cant.

Can you find one for sale anywhere for that price?

2020's run is sold out so you cant order one anymore.

UD

I can go to my dealer and order one UD. There are dealers like Kerbeck in NJ that can get you whatever you want. I won’t be told “They aren’t making those base C8s for another 8 months... sorry. But here’s a $75k Vette, that is all that GM is making now.”

 

[Uncle Dave]

They say the main China gigafactory is capable of building 250,000 cars a year which is more than half of Tesla’s car production this year. Supposedly the sub factories that are being built now that are responsible building subsystems for the car, in aggregate will make China their biggest production facility.

Didnt see that number - please copy if you can find that -

I know its big though, but the Nevada site was larger last I looked - and the German site looks to be about the same as China.

Lets say it is the biggest for now - why is this a problem as an American or stockholder?

How is tesla not a fully American company?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Whats missing is the 60K vette.

Is there a single showroom in the US with one I can go buy at that price?

UD

It’s my understanding there are no C8s available yet. Certainly someone, somewhere will have some base models available upon debut or shortly after.

And GM didn’t hold your deposit hostage for a year plus while they built a car that didn’t match the advertised specs for the advertised price.

 

[pronstar]

GM is doing exactly what you said the law wouldn't let them do, and that that tesla got away with.

Thing is GM, and everyone else has ALWAYS done it, which I pointed out quite dispassionately.

- but some of you guys tried to talk your way around this reality just to bash tesla -

So you guys ran with it while ignoring everyone elses SOP on the same matter.

When the car was made available no one acknowledged it and moved on to the next thing they didnt like about Tesla.

Now that an example of this is clearly out in the open - amnesia and backpedaling sets in.

UD

Bruh, the 2020 Vette isn’t even at dealers yet.

GM hasn’t stated “we won’t make cheaper versions for two years”.

First year Vette allocation is basically pre-sold...not deposits, sold.

A large chunk of those are pre-ordered by customers, and paid for.

I’m not a Tesla basher or fanboi.
Just calling things like I see them.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Uncle Dave]

I can go to my dealer and order one UD. There are dealers like Kerbeck in NJ that can get you whatever you want. I won’t be told “They aren’t making those base C8s for another 8 months... sorry. But here’s a $75k Vette, that is all that GM is making now.”

You cant order a 2020 at any price- because the production run is sold out.

Can anyone find a 60K car anywhere?



UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

And GM didn’t hold your deposit hostage for a year plus while they built a car that didn’t match the advertised specs for the advertised price.

GM cant hold your deposit for any length of time because you cannot order a car from them.

You can ONLY order a car from a dealer who will be happy to hold your money forever and may or may not ever deliver the car you order or give it back.

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Bruh, the 2020 Vette isn’t even at dealers yet.

GM hasn’t stated “we won’t make cheaper versions for two years”.

First year Vette allocation is basically pre-sold...not deposits, sold.

A large chunk of those are pre-ordered by customers, and paid for.

I’m not a Tesla basher or fanboi.
Just calling things like I see them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes its pre sold - to a channel that will then rape the first tier clients.

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Didnt see that number - please copy if you can find that -

I know its big though, but the Nevada site was larger last I looked - and the German site looks to be about the same as China.

Lets say it is the biggest for now - why is this a problem as an American or stockholder?

How is tesla not a fully American company?

To your point it is not the biggest in terms of land, but in terms of capacity. I’ll see if I can find it again.

I have no problem with how or where they build factories as a stock holder. If they are delivering shareholder value (unquestionably they are right now) and share holders are happy, no one cares, nor do I.

How do you want to define a “Fully American Company”?

I would argue that at this point Toyota is a more “Fully American Company” than Tesla. They employ more Americans, and have invested more in the American market than Tesla will in the foreseeable future.
Yes the parent company was founded in Japan, if that is the subjective criteria for being a “Fully American Company” than maybe Toyota isn’t after all. But how can you be “Full American” when you are building factories in China?

I don’t have an answer and I don’t care either way honestly. All car companies are multi national car companies these days.

 

[Orange Juice]

God damn! Where’d everyone go? Tesla success run all the haters off? It really is pathetic that a bunch of peeps on here would root for the demise of all American car and rocket builder that’s doing something good for everyone just because he’s using green technology based out of California. They’d rather see Tesla fail and continue rooting for carbon puffing foreign built American Auto company that receives tax breaks and then shuts down American plants so their foreign ones can increase their billion dollar profit margins and pad the pockets of a select few. Thank you Uncle Dave for Having the wisdom and stones to standup for Tesla and the great benefit this visionary company provides.
Let the stone casting begin.....

The haters are “all” Trump Supporters.

 

[Boozer]

Bruh, the 2020 Vette isn’t even at dealers yet.

GM hasn’t stated “we won’t make cheaper versions for two years”.

First year Vette allocation is basically pre-sold...not deposits, sold.

A large chunk of those are pre-ordered by customers, and paid for.

I’m not a Tesla basher or fanboi.
Just calling things like I see them.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

It isn’t at dealers because they haven’t even started production on them yet. As far as being “sold” no. The dealers have taken deposits, maybe a handful of them are already paid in full but the majority are just holding on to $1K-$2K deposits. Many dealers took more deposits than their allocation because they knew they’d have people back out.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

GM cant hold your deposit for any length of time because you cannot order a car from them.

You can ONLY order a car from a dealer who will be happy to hold your money forever and may or may not ever deliver the car you order or give it back.

UD

That is exactly why there is a dealer network. I would not give a dealer a deposit for a car. You are comparing apples to oranges. When the C8 comes out of there are no base model Vettes to be found, I’d be able to find a dealer to sell me one at sticker or order the exact base model I wanted for delivery. I would not be told “Sorry, Chevy isn’t making those right now.”

It is the debut of a new car, the dealer (GM) and MFG (Tesla) knows they can rape the giddy and impatient.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Yes its pre sold - to a channel that will then rape the first tier clients.

UD

Same can be said for Tesla, they just run the channel of raping

 

[Runs2rch]

The haters are “all” Trump Supporters.

Don't you have some ben wa balls to polish?

 

[Uncle Dave]

To your point it is not the biggest in terms of land, but in terms of capacity. I’ll see if I can find it again.

I have no problem with how or where they build factories as a stock holder. If they are delivering shareholder value (unquestionably they are right now) and share holders are happy, no one cares, nor do I.

How do you want to define a “Fully American Company”?

I would argue that at this point Toyota is a more “Fully American Company” than Tesla. They employ more Americans, and have invested more in the American market than Tesla will in the foreseeable future.
Yes the parent company was founded in Japan, if that is the subjective criteria for being a “Fully American Company” than maybe Toyota isn’t after all. But how can you be “Full American” when you are building factories in China?

I don’t have an answer and I don’t care either way honestly. All car companies are multi national car companies these days.

You used the term " All American" which I transposed to "fully" - so you actually opened the question.

Where the company originated, and where the profit (if any) flows back to in the end is where I would define as the origination point of a company. In Telsas case the US.

Toyota, Honda, V.A.G (now that I type this it makes me giggle) have large investments in America - but the profit if any cows back to their origination countries.

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

You cant order a 2020 at any price- because the production run is sold out.

Can anyone find a 60K car anywhere?



UD

Someone probably ordered one UD. It does actually exist. As you know they are not capable of building infinite numbers of cars.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

You used the term " All American" which I transposed to "fully" - so you actually opened the question.

Where the company originated, and where the profit (if any) flows back to in the end is where I would define as the origination point of a company. In Telsas case the US.

Toyota, Honda, V.A.G (now that I type this it makes me giggle) have large investments in America - but the profit if any cows back to their origination countries.

UD

Certainly, but those “foreign” profits are being reinvested here as well. I can buy VAG (lol) Toyota or Honda stock.

The converse is true for Tesla. They were founded here and are now pouring money into other countries.

Again I don’t care either way, but net net I don’t see much of a difference in today’s economy.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Same can be said for Tesla, they just run the channel of raping

Hows that when they ultimately made the promised car available?

That is exactly why there is a dealer network. I would not give a dealer a deposit for a car. You are comparing apples to oranges. When the C8 comes out of there are no base model Vettes to be found, I’d be able to find a dealer to sell me one at sticker or order the exact base model I wanted for delivery. I would not be told “Sorry, Chevy isn’t making those right now.”

It is the debut of a new car, the dealer (GM) and MFG (Tesla) knows they can rape the giddy and impatient.

So in the end - after all that bitching about the model 3 from everyone here as a reason to root for teslas failure there is acknowledgement that its a common practice in the industry to ship the higher end car first.

Where is the hate for the others guys over this practice?

I see nothing but apology and understanding when the other guys do it.


UD

 

[Orange Juice]

Don't you have some ben wa balls to polish?

the truth hurts?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Certainly, but those “foreign” profits are being reinvested here as well. I can buy VAG (lol) Toyota or Honda stock.

The converse is true for Tesla. They were founded here and are now pouring money into other countries.

Again I don’t care either way, but net net I don’t see much of a difference in today’s economy.

Cant have it both ways - (cant hurt to try though)

Cant bag on them for being slow to grow them complain when they open up factories in high population, high growth areas.

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Cant have it both ways - (cant hurt to try though)

Cant bag on them for being slow to grow them complain when they open up factories in high population, high growth areas.

UD

I’m not trying to have it both ways. I don’t care where they build factories. As a shareholder this is exactly what I want... build more cars cheaper.

My point is that the “Fully American” label is false.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I’m not trying to have it both ways. I don’t care where they build factories. As a shareholder this is exactly what I want... build more cars cheaper.

My point is that the “Fully American” label is false.

By your own definition what would that be?

 

[pronstar]

Yes its pre sold - to a channel that will then rape the first tier clients.

UD

You angry bro?
Jeezus...have another cup of coffee [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Uncle Dave]

You angry bro?
Jeezus...have another cup of coffee [emoji106]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Me? Not at all. Im in a festive holiday spirit actually.

Just continuing conversation with my on line buds where we dont quite see eye to eye on everything but Id still rather debate with you guys than just about any group.

You sensitive bro?

UD

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Hows that when they ultimately made the promised car available?


So in the end - after all that bitching about the model 3 from everyone here as a reason to root for teslas failure there is acknowledgement that its a common practice in the industry to ship the higher end car first.

Where is the hate for the others guys over this practice?

I see nothing but apology and understanding when the other guys do it.


UD

I don’t think you’ll find much from me here on Tesla hate aside from the marketing and sales BS practices.

That is the difference. Tesla has rarely if ever delivered a product they said they were going to, at the price they said they were going to.

As far as rooting for their failure, it looked pretty bleak there for awhile, and they still really are not in an amazing position with regards to their forecasts.

 

[pronstar]

Tesla absolutely deserved much of the criticism they’ve received.

Criticism and “wishing to fail” are two very different things.

There are some who seem to want them to fail in this thread.

I’ve never rooted for them to fail.
But I’ll call them, and any other carmaker, out in their bullshit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

By your own definition what would that be?

No auto maker is “Fully American” they are all multi national auto makers.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I don’t think you’ll find much from me here on Tesla hate aside from the marketing and sales BS practices.

That is the difference. Tesla has rarely if ever delivered a product they said they were going to, at the price they said they were going to.

As far as rooting for their failure, it looked pretty bleak there for awhile, and they still really are not in an amazing position with regards to their forecasts.

I replay to a very broad audience here as posts often get pulled after so I often reply to a series of posters that dont have the fortitude you and a few other have in rigorous debate.

I think they have a tough road ahead of them but will be around a while.

UD

 

[c_land]

It seems Elons finally learning to STFU, or at least be extremely measured with his mouth or fingers.

UD

I like it better when he gives his input

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Tesla absolutely deserved much of the criticism they’ve received.

Criticism and “wishing to fail” are two very different things.

There are some who seem to want them to fail in this thread.

I’ve never rooted for them to fail.
But I’ll call them, and any other carmaker, out in their bullshit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The “rooting to fail” is mostly tied to the subsidies for purchase of luxury electric vehicles. Someone that is gonna buy a $60k-$140k luxury electric car does not need the government’s help.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I replay to a very broad audience here as posts often get pulled after so I often reply to a series of posters that dont have the fortitude you and a few other have in rigorous debate.

I think they have a tough road ahead of them but will be around a while.

UD

Understood completely, and I always enjoy debates with you and reading your input. You were correct in calling this one. I thought they (Tesla) would have been acquired by now. That won’t happen at the current market cap. I think even when the stock price was low, the market cap was still so out of whack it prevented a buyout.

 

[Uncle Dave]

No auto maker is “Fully American” they are all multi national auto makers.

I don't disagree with that but I do believe that the country of origin the profit (if any) flows back to is the best defining metric of who is American and who is foreign.

GM
Ford
Tesla

Would be the American ones left by my definition.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I don't disagree with that but I do believe that the country of origin the profit (if any) flows back to is the best defining metric of who is American and who is foreign.

GM
Ford
Tesla

Would be the American ones left by my definition.

I would agree with that as well.

 

[Uncle Dave]

The “rooting to fail” is mostly tied to the subsidies for purchase of luxury electric vehicles. Someone that is gonna buy a $60k-$140k luxury electric car does not need the government’s help.

Agreed.

There were several interesting things about this issue.

1. Few to none bitching about the subsidy bothered to care everyone that plays got it- even foreign companies. (which pisses me off- and Im surprise no one went down this road)
2. When it came to subsidies the Tesla haters had selective amnesia- and forgot about the bankruptcies bail outs and loans everyone else got.

Its as though these guys only cared about teslas end - and in that thats why I said these guys are haters.

Anyone can root for whoever they want to succeed or fail - but pretending its anything other than that with positions that a 3rd grader could blow a hole in was interesting to watch.

UD