Russia and Ukraine

[Sandlord]

My position on this matter is fully consistent with historic Reagan conservative values.

If you just put that in your signature, you could save time typing it over and over and over.

 

[Racey]

I didn’t see a cogent question posed by you.

Quite frankly I haven’t seen a cogent thought since you hit your head and became a supporter of big government, crazy conspiracy theories, higher taxes and less liberty.

Learn to read:
"And was Kiev supported by the US with Manufacturing, Financing, etc in that same time period? Huh? well?"

Pretty ironic statement coming from a guy that wants to tax US citizens to fight another country's civil war.

 

[Racey]

 

[monkeyswrench]

Let me ask the almighty this:
Where is (was now) the manufacturing center of Ukraine? Out of the two very different side of the country, which had the facilities to manufacture any sort of weaponry or equipment?

Then, we mustn't forget that the US has also admitted to supporting Biolabs in the northeast of Ukraine. As we have seen in the past several years, that isn't a good thing. What happens to be northeast of Ukraine?

The other thing that is actually more frightening than Russians and Ukrainians killing each other, is the stockpiles of our own military being depleted to do so. High ranking officials from different branches have publicly stated this. Our manufacturing cannot keep up with the need to resupply. China, who we have funded via our hunger for cheap labor and goods, is probably also quite aware of this. Our leaders have brought us to our knees in many ways, and now they advertise it as well.

I don't think the great Oracle can see past his own gated community. I've heard it said he uses Chinese labor for manufacturing...which in essence supports the communists. Almost all of us are guilty to some extent. Didn't seem bad, then, but the harvest may be coming.

 

[Wedgy]

Let me ask the almighty this:
Where is (was now) the manufacturing center of Ukraine? Out of the two very different side of the country, which had the facilities to manufacture any sort of weaponry or equipment?

Then, we mustn't forget that the US has also admitted to supporting Biolabs in the northeast of Ukraine. As we have seen in the past several years, that isn't a good thing. What happens to be northeast of Ukraine?

The other thing that is actually more frightening than Russians and Ukrainians killing each other, is the stockpiles of our own military being depleted to do so. High ranking officials from different branches have publicly stated this. Our manufacturing cannot keep up with the need to resupply. China, who we have funded via our hunger for cheap labor and goods, is probably also quite aware of this. Our leaders have brought us to our knees in many ways, and now they advertise it as well.

I don't think the great Oracle can see past his own gated community. I've heard it said he uses Chinese labor for manufacturing...which in essence supports the communists. Almost all of us are guilty to some extent. Didn't seem bad, then, but the harvest may be coming.

Eisenhower tried to warn us then. So this bullshit is nothing new. Now they run amuck, out of control, so greedy they aren't doing their job properly. Why are we not surprised. The coverup is always worse than the crime. And criminal.

After 6 years of witnessing, a DOL subcontractor run the location with counterproductive administration directives, garbage zero leadership, outright theft, corruption, embezzlement, caught, fined, name change, new contract, cooking the books again. Using the Kid's as pawns, screwing with their education to get a statistic. None of this bullshit surprises me. At all. That Director couldn't find his own ass with his bare hands. Every move that moron made made things worse.

To think it gets any better going up the chain of command in the Federal government is a Farce

 

[regor]

George Soros Urged Use Of Eastern European Soldiers To "Reduce The Risk Of Body-Bags For NATO Countries" In 'New World Order' Article​

Soros called for Eastern Europeans to essentially be used as cannon fodder armed with NATO weapons, a prescient prediction given how the war in Ukraine has developed...

MON JAN 23, AT 1:20 PM

 

[monkeyswrench]

"Ukrainian media claim that the deputy head of Zelensky's office, Kyrylo Tymoshenko, wrote a letter of resignation

Also, the heads of the Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Kherson and Sumy regions of Ukraine resigned."

"Something is clearly happening or expected in Ukraine: following the mass resignations, the National Security and Defense Council banned the travel of civil servants, security officials and deputies abroad."


These two quotes were just grabbed from Russian language news sources broadcast in Ukraine. Something weird is going on. They see something coming down the pipe. Russia/the front is too far away for them to be thinking they're a threat. The guy getting killed in the helicopter may have been a target of Ukraine...Nationalist vs Nationalist light? Dunno, but something tells me things will be changing rapidly.

 

[Orange Juice]

However the outcome of the Russia and Ukraine war, It will take 20 year for that area to returns to normal.

NATO’s plan all along was to plant CIA observers in the field, and help Ukraine exploit all the holes in Russia’s offensive.

If NATO decides to remove Putin from office, I think 3-4 days, Russia is waving a white flag, and becomes a part of NATO/Europe, strengthening its alliance, and making it easier to extend European NATO bases deep into Russia, and in China’s backyard.

 

[regor]

However the outcome of the Russia and Ukraine war, It will take 20 year for that area to returns to normal.

NATO’s plan all along was to plant CIA observers in the field, and help Ukraine exploit all the holes in Russia’s offensive.

If NATO decides to remove Putin from office, I think 3-4 days, Russia is waving a white flag, and becomes a part of NATO/Europe, strengthening its alliance, and making it easier to extend European NATO bases deep into Russia, and in China’s backyard.

 

[monkeyswrench]

However the outcome of the Russia and Ukraine war, It will take 20 year for that area to returns to normal.

NATO’s plan all along was to plant CIA observers in the field, and help Ukraine exploit all the holes in Russia’s offensive.

If NATO decides to remove Putin from office, I think 3-4 days, Russia is waving a white flag, and becomes a part of NATO/Europe, strengthening its alliance, and making it easier to extend European NATO bases deep into Russia, and in China’s backyard.

That would be great for NATO, but I don't see it happening. Where a large group of Americans don't even care who this Nato guy is, majority of Russians hate it. The CIA and such have toppled leaders in small countries, I don't know if the have ever done a bigger player. It probably really just comes down to following the money. War makes big money, and so does the threat of war. With one less boogeyman to threaten us, we'd be one step closer to world peace(or domination). The military industrial complex won't transition to cold fusion or wind farms, I wouldn't think.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Germany has approved the transfer of 139 (I believe it was) Leopard 1 and 2 tanks to Ukraine.

In other news, Ukraine did a tactical strike on a Russian rail yard. Either their aim got better, or had help/ trained operators. 6 HIMARS fired, 3 pairs of different payloads. 1 pair ground burst, on tracks. 1 pair airburst, over power substation (electric trains) and 1 pair airburst anti-personel (giant bird shot, I think tungsten balls?) over shop/maintenance area.
If they're that good, why do the constantly hit schools, apartments and grocery stores by accident?

 

[Taboma]

That would be great for NATO, but I don't see it happening. Where a large group of Americans don't even care who this Nato guy is, majority of Russians hate it. The CIA and such have toppled leaders in small countries, I don't know if the have ever done a bigger player. It probably really just comes down to following the money. War makes big money, and so does the threat of war. With one less boogeyman to threaten us, we'd be one step closer to world peace(or domination). The military industrial complex won't transition to cold fusion or wind farms, I wouldn't think.

Cold Fusion ?
I agree, I don't think anybody will be transitioning to that power source, which to date there exists no accepted theoretical model that would allow it to exist.
There is nothing in observed human nature and behavior to even remotely suggests we as a species, can all live together in perennial peace and harmony.
So no worries, the fighting will go on, and on, and on, just as it always has.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Cold Fusion ?
I agree, I don't think anybody will be transitioning to that power source, which to date there exists no accepted theoretical model that would allow it to exist.
There is nothing in observed human nature and behavior to even remotely suggests we as a species, can all live together in perennial peace and harmony.
So no worries, the fighting will go on, and on, and on, just as it always has.

Philosophical subject for the morning:
"Organized religion has killed more people than anything" I hear this a lot, and I don't really disagree. What I disagree with is the way a person defines religion. If someone worships their leader, their money, or power, is that not just another form of religion? Hard-core environmentalists, political zealots, race warriors and the LGBT extremists are all just as hateful as the some who speak against them.

None of them seek to find solutions, they only seek to overpower their chosen infidels.

As I've said before, I'm much more of a pacifist now, but had a history not quite as calm.

 

[Taboma]

Philosophical subject for the morning:
"Organized religion has killed more people than anything" I hear this a lot, and I don't really disagree. What I disagree with is the way a person defines religion. If someone worships their leader, their money, or power, is that not just another form of religion? Hard-core environmentalists, political zealots, race warriors and the LGBT extremists are all just as hateful as the some who speak against them.

None of them seek to find solutions, they only seek to overpower their chosen infidels.

As I've said before, I'm much more of a pacifist now, but had a history not quite as calm.

In general I believe all religions, in all their multitude of guise, have been either created or manipulated for the benefit of asserting and maintaining control and dominion by the believer's overlords.

Wars are certainly not of a spiritual nature, nor fought for spiritual fulfillment, they are fought to serve the inherent greed of man.

One question that remains from both my youth and participation as one of my country's warriors, just what the hell was I so angry about ?? And why did I feel such satisfaction while performing deeds I'm now least proud of ?
Ponder as I might, there is no apparent answer or excuse to lay any blame.

I'm not sure age has caused me to be a pacifist, or it was the stark realization, that I no longer have the time to waste being angry.

 

[Wedgy]

Well said, kind Sir. Thank you for your service to our Country. Glad you made it back. Wow. Even the Crusades boil on down.

In talking with my Marine friend here, Leatherneck Roughneck Dave, 76, it is telling when we discuss Vietnam, the things he doesn't talk about. Semper Fi.

 

[500bbc]

If you just put that in your signature, you could save time typing it over and over and over.

If he was honest it would be "Trump said pussy".

 

[monkeyswrench]

In general I believe all religions, in all their multitude of guise, have been either created or manipulated for the benefit of asserting and maintaining control and dominion by the believer's overlords.

Wars are certainly not of a spiritual nature, nor fought for spiritual fulfillment, they are fought to serve the inherent greed of man.

One question that remains from both my youth and participation as one of my country's warriors, just what the hell was I so angry about ?? And why did I feel such satisfaction while performing deeds I'm now least proud of ?
Ponder as I might, there is no apparent answer or excuse to lay any blame.

I'm not sure age has caused me to be a pacifist, or it was the stark realization, that I no longer have the time to waste being angry.

In a much different way, or maybe not, my pain, both physical and mental, manifested itself in the form of anger and aggressions. Not right, nor wrong, but reality. I cannot change what I've done, but I choose to let what I've done change me. That's a path that goes both ways. Either follow it down into the abyss, or head towards the sunrise. Truth be told, there's some switchbacks, and at times the shadows are pretty dark, but it's all part of the journey I guess.

The current view of the horizon scares the living hell out of me. Not one bit for myself, but for my kids. They're the reasons I've chosen the way I am and think now.

 

[spectras only]

Hundreds of Ukranian soldiers in the US now, training to use what ever military equipment Biden OK to send to Ukraine. Brits doing same.

The Ukrainians should get the updated versions of all NATO weapons, Biden should send a pm to Putin, promise not to capture them and analyze them.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Hundreds of Ukranian soldiers in the US now, training to use what ever military equipment Biden OK to send to Ukraine. Brits doing same.

The Ukrainians should get the updated versions of all NATO weapons, Biden should send a pm to Putin, promise not to capture them and analyze them.

Didn't know if they'd arrived in Oklahoma yet. They were talking about how many operators are needed for a Patriot battery...apparently a bunch.

Ukrainians at a Waffle House in Tulsa...could be some good YouTube footage

 

[retaocleg]

Ukrainians will need support, they will be under gunned in any inner city in america......just sayin

 

[530RL]

U.S., Germany to send scores of tanks to help Ukraine fight Russian invasion

The United States said on Wednesday it would supply Ukraine with 31 of its most advanced battle tanks after Germany broke a taboo with a similar announcement, moves hailed by Kyiv as a potential turning point in its battle to repel Russia's invasion. The U.S. decision to deliver M1 Abrams tanks...

news.yahoo.com

 

[regor]

U.S., Germany to send scores of tanks to help Ukraine fight Russian invasion

The United States said on Wednesday it would supply Ukraine with 31 of its most advanced battle tanks after Germany broke a taboo with a similar announcement, moves hailed by Kyiv as a potential turning point in its battle to repel Russia's invasion. The U.S. decision to deliver M1 Abrams tanks...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Angler]

 

[spectras only]

Russia-Ukraine War pushes ‘Doomsday Clock’ closest point to midnight in history, scientists say​

Do you believe political/scientists? It's now 90 second before midnight.

 

[monkeyswrench]

How does sending heavy tanks reshape the war? I don't know how many trained tankers they have left. It seems like poor planning to put an untrained crew at the controls of a 10 million dollar, 70,000lb piece of equipment.

 

[spectras only]

How does sending heavy tanks reshape the war? I don't know how many trained tankers they have left. It seems like poor planning to put an untrained crew at the controls of a 10 million dollar, 70,000lb piece of equipment.

Well, Ukranian soldiers can be trained washing those tanks, quickly. Just don't send US crews to operate of said tanks.

 

[was thatguy]

However the outcome of the Russia and Ukraine war, It will take 20 year for that area to returns to normal.

“Normal”??? Lol
What’s that look like?
Normalcy is not synonymous with Eastern Europe.
Those lines get redrawn more than Hunter with an ounce of blow and a 4’ square mirror.

 

[Orange Juice]

“Normal”??? Lol
What’s that look like?
Normalcy is not synonymous with Eastern Europe.
Those lines get redrawn more than Hunter with an ounce of blow and a 4’ square mirror.

That’s kinda the point. Russia is going to need stability….Do we find that in North Korea?

 

[monkeyswrench]

"Joe Biden will announce on Wednesday the decision to supply Abrams tanks to Ukraine, an American administration official told the Al-Jazeera TV channel

The U.S. may send Ukraine from 30 to 50 Abrams tanks, Anadolu news agency reported citing a U.S. administration official."

So, Turkey and the al Jazeera folks were told first? Like a Kelley Blue Book update for the black market sales from Afghanistan?

 

[Orange Juice]

"Joe Biden will announce on Wednesday the decision to supply Abrams tanks to Ukraine, an American administration official told the Al-Jazeera TV channel

The U.S. may send Ukraine from 30 to 50 Abrams tanks, Anadolu news agency reported citing a U.S. administration official."

So, Turkey and the al Jazeera folks were told first? Like a Kelley Blue Book update for the black market sales from Afghanistan?

About time. Fuck Putin!

Maybe a dozen long range missiles pre-set after launch, to wake the fuck up Putin.

Give him an ”oh shit!” Moment. Check his spine.

 

[just_floatin]

About time. Fuck Putin!

Maybe a dozen long range missiles pre-set after launch, to wake the fuck up Putin.

Give him an ”oh shit!” Moment. Check his spine.

Cool Man

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618294600485195777

 

[Wedgy]

Wynken, Blinkin, and Nod. And Nod in a good way...

 

[HotRod82]

About time. Fuck Putin!

Maybe a dozen long range missiles pre-set after launch, to wake the fuck up Putin.

Give him an ”oh shit!” Moment. Check his spine.

I wish I had your confidence in Putin not going nuclear. I see no scenario (short of Putin being assassinated) in which Putin accepts defeat and goes away quietly. I wonder if a Russian Sub will take a shot at the freighter carrying these tanks and equipment?
This escalation scares the shit out of me.....

 

[Sandlord]

I wish I had your confidence in Putin not going nuclear. I see no scenario (short of Putin being assassinated) in which Putin accepts defeat and goes away quietly. I wonder if a Russian Sub will take a shot at the freighter carrying these tanks and equipment?
This escalation scares the shit out of me.....

Perhaps Zelinsky could accept defeat. That would cancel any need for nukes as well.

My position on this matter is fully consistent with historic Reagan conservative values.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Read an interesting view. The Abrams tanks and French tanks will probably not be the loaded models. They will probably be the older ones, near the end of their cycle. The cost written off will be the cost of replacements, quite a bit more than scrap value. The Pentagon will need money to replace them. The development and delivery cost will be sizeable. The suppliers will make an epic profit. This will also be substantially more so if there is a need to do so quickly, like an impending threat from another country.

About time. Fuck Putin!

Maybe a dozen long range missiles pre-set after launch, to wake the fuck up Putin.

Give him an ”oh shit!” Moment. Check his spine.

You sir, are a fool. I assume you have no children or grandchildren of fighting age...or don't like those you have.

 

[regor]

About time. Fuck Putin!

Maybe a dozen long range missiles pre-set after launch, to wake the fuck up Putin.

Give him an ”oh shit!” Moment. Check his spine.

Soooooo if Xi and Vlad were amassing forces in Mexico, you would want your President to continue to stand down?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Soooooo if Xi and Vlad were amassing forces in Mexico, you would want your President to continue to stand down?

BTW...look into the new "partnership" unveiled this week. Russia and Mexico, no travel Visa needed. Ads in Spanish for free classes in Russian, and vice-versa.

Then we have our own open borders. Any fighting age male can claim to be a Ukrainian refugee...and who can tell the difference between Ukrainian and Russian? Guessing not a lot of border patrol guys can either.

 

[regor]

German Foreign Minister Just Said The Quiet Part Out Loud On Ukraine​

Kremlin responds: "Don’t say later that we didn’t warn you."

WED JAN 25, AT 10:09 AM

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618217167388053504

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova seized on the comments, saying this is yet more proof that the Western allies were planning a war on Russia all along...

"If we add this to Merkel’s revelations that they were strengthening Ukraine and did not count on the Minsk agreements, then we are talking about a war against Russia that was planned in advance. Don’t say later that we didn’t warn you," Zakharova said.

One thing is for sure, things are moving fast...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618093143458746371

 

[monkeyswrench]

German Foreign Minister Just Said The Quiet Part Out Loud On Ukraine​

Kremlin responds: "Don’t say later that we didn’t warn you."

WED JAN 25, AT 10:09 AM

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618217167388053504

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova seized on the comments, saying this is yet more proof that the Western allies were planning a war on Russia all along...

"If we add this to Merkel’s revelations that they were strengthening Ukraine and did not count on the Minsk agreements, then we are talking about a war against Russia that was planned in advance. Don’t say later that we didn’t warn you," Zakharova said.

One thing is for sure, things are moving fast...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618093143458746371

Well, I don't live near critical infrastructure, nor military bases. The east coast would be hit hard...too bad it wouldn't just be DC.

The Russian Intel ship wasn't in Hawaii for the surf, and neither side will admit where their subs are...or sdmit they know where the other side is sitting.

The B-52's could be out as decoys, and the "invisible" types doing their thing.

 

[Smitty7]

Well, I don't live near critical infrastructure, nor military bases. The east coast would be hit hard...too bad it wouldn't just be DC.

The Russian Intel ship wasn't in Hawaii for the surf, and neither side will admit where their subs are...or sdmit they know where the other side is sitting.

The B-52's could be out as decoys, and the "invisible" types doing their thing.

New videos are going to be coming out this year of Russian's with a cock around their neck bragging about cutting it off American female troops. In my lifetime I have not noticed Russia do much bluffing. We might want to think about that. I think America is about to get a wake up call. Who's gonna save us, all the warriors from San Francisco ? Once they see a crack in the wall every mother fucker that's hated us for years is going to rush in .

 

[Wedgy]

German Foreign Minister Just Said The Quiet Part Out Loud On Ukraine​

Kremlin responds: "Don’t say later that we didn’t warn you."

WED JAN 25, AT 10:09 AM

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618217167388053504

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova seized on the comments, saying this is yet more proof that the Western allies were planning a war on Russia all along...

"If we add this to Merkel’s revelations that they were strengthening Ukraine and did not count on the Minsk agreements, then we are talking about a war against Russia that was planned in advance. Don’t say later that we didn’t warn you," Zakharova said.

One thing is for sure, things are moving fast...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618093143458746371

It's a CF Shitshow at this point. I say let these two Duke it out to settle the, "War in Ukraine." All she had to include was the word "Support." That's not a war of words, that was stupid, either way, at any rate.

She should back it up. Who doesn't love a good girl fight? PPV Winner take all, pack it up and return to all respective corners. Probably be a lousy take, but the World would be a better place.

 

[Wedgy]

Desert Dave reporting heavy Helo activity out in the greater YV JT 29 Palms area. Heavy lift transports. Fort Irwin?
Also reports of tanks on trains, not sure where. Helo quote, "There's been a shitload of Helo's active out here."

Keep in mind 29 Palms is a U.S. Marine training base where they fly Helicopters all the time.
Fort Irwin. U.S. Army National Training Center. Considered to be one of the top training centers in the United States Army.
The National Training Center at Fort Irwin was the first area to use the M1 Abrams tanks, and M2 Bradley fighting vehicles.

 

[pronstar]

Read an interesting view. The Abrams tanks and French tanks will probably not be the loaded models. They will probably be the older ones, near the end of their cycle. The cost written off will be the cost of replacements, quite a bit more than scrap value. The Pentagon will need money to replace them. The development and delivery cost will be sizeable. The suppliers will make an epic profit. This will also be substantially more so if there is a need to do so quickly, like an impending threat from another country.



You sir, are a fool. I assume you have no children or grandchildren of fighting age...or don't like those you have.

Yeah I think everything we send is older stuff that’s due for replacement or retirement.

Sending high tech weapons won’t do any good without training, which can take weeks if not months.

 

[Smitty7]

Yeah I think everything we send is older stuff that’s due for replacement or retirement.

Sending high tech weapons won’t do any good without training, which can take weeks if not months.

Enough sending. Don't we have a few problems here we should tend too ? This is not a game that is gonna end well for anybody .

 

[monkeyswrench]

Desert Dave reporting heavy Helo activity out in the greater YV JT 29 Palms area. Heavy lift transports. Fort Irwin?
Also reports of tanks on trains, not sure where. Helo quote, "There's been a shitload of Helo's active out here."

Keep in mind 29 Palms is a U.S. Marine training base where they fly Helicopters all the time.
Fort Irwin. U.S. Army National Training Center. Considered to be one of the top training centers in the United States Army.
The National Training Center at Fort Irwin was the first area to use the M1 Abrams tanks, and M2 Bradley fighting vehicles.

Honestly, since last January there has been noticeably heavier military helo traffic out here. Dunno where they're going, we have a reserve base maybe 70 miles N/NE of here. Tanks and APC's have been on the tracks north of I40 pretty often too. I think a lot of them go towards the Barstow logistics base.

 

[pronstar]

Enough sending. Don't we have a few problems here we should tend too ? This is not a game that is gonna end well for anybody .

Oh I’m with you 100%

We have no legitimate business intervening in a war that we drew Russia into in the first place.

But Ukraine is an ATM for the Military Industrial Complex and it’s political Allies, and they aren’t giving up their illegitimate golden goose.

 

[spectras only]

About time. Fuck Putin!

Maybe a dozen long range missiles pre-set after launch, to wake the fuck up Putin.

Give him an ”oh shit!” Moment. Check his spine.

Those Abrams won't make a difference. Tanks won't make a difference, outdated military equipment and strategy for today's warfare. They're only good for inner city operations, blasting old buildings. Putin isn't going anywhere, take that to the bank. Fuckin Zelensky needs to wake up, not Putin, if he wants to save his people from further suffering.

 

[Orange Juice]

Soooooo if Xi and Vlad were amassing forces in Mexico, you would want your President to continue to stand down?

Focus, Focus, Focus.

Putin is the problem.

Mexico will help us. Especially if we give them NATO protection.

NATO has about 3-6 more moves until checkmate.

Then Jesus is reborn. And Paris Hilton is the new Virgin Mary.

 

[Orange Juice]

BTW...look into the new "partnership" unveiled this week. Russia and Mexico, no travel Visa needed. Ads in Spanish for free classes in Russian, and vice-versa.

Then we have our own open borders. Any fighting age male can claim to be a Ukrainian refugee...and who can tell the difference between Ukrainian and Russian? Guessing not a lot of border patrol guys can either.

We are in a world of terror. Been that way my entire life.

Russia is about to fall, and Ukraine is the catalyst.

 

[Orange Juice]

I wish I had your confidence in Putin not going nuclear. I see no scenario (short of Putin being assassinated) in which Putin accepts defeat and goes away quietly. I wonder if a Russian Sub will take a shot at the freighter carrying these tanks and equipment?
This escalation scares the shit out of me.....

We worried about Israel, when we attacked Iraq.

How many months did it take us to build up enough troops in Saudi Arabia? Logistically, Europe has been practicing this scenario for 60+ years. Who not better than Biden to lead the final charge.