DCB flip from the air (different angle)

[McRib]

Here's what I saw.

I just saw the 41 cut way left when he belonged on the CA side. (told to us in the drivers meeting to use the center of the of the river as a center divider) south bound CA side northbound AZ side. The 41 had ample room to stay center or right. He (self admitted) jumped the start. He had no one on his right anywhere near as close to his left.

The 35 was gonna get pinched. Roth was at his 7 o'clock coming quick so...... Wash out Roth or cross the wake and hope for the best. I don't think the 35 was entirely driver error. He was put in a position to make a choice and he chose wrong. Lack of training? Perhaps. They should not have been that wide across that section IMO. Both the 41 (most experienced) and the 35 get equal blame from me.

I suppose the 35 could have gave it more left turn but at the risk of to sharp a turn mishap idk if it would have mattered he could have lost it in either scenario. The 41 should have never went left. Should have stayed true or slowly went right to just west of the center line of the lake.

 

[PVHCA]

Have you taken the tres Martin course?

If I ever own a boat with that kind of power bet your ass I will.

 

[shintoooo]

After watching the video a couple more times, I'm still going with McRib being the cause of this and Tank for encouraging him to participate.

 

[hp1050]

Same type of incident just a better angle once you get into the trailing rooster the comp[ressed air from the tunnel just lifts and away you go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2a9TPBLMIk

 

[New to boating]

Food for thought. I'll grab my popcorn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYvL6uEMl6E

Thank you for posting this - Way different prospective than prior videos. After review, 100% driver error. They simply could not turn the boat, no skill set. They were along for the ride. Way way faster speed than I had assumed at "launch". No way these Guys have any CAT experience of any significance no one would have ever have cut across like that and right off the transom of the M41, suicide move to anyone who has any experieince in big power CATS.

I don't believe they had any control over the boat it was drifting where it wanted to go under hard accceleration (likely wide open) and they were clearly "committed" to holding it wide open.

Another problem (HUGE PROBLEM), Props were "spinning in" (look at the still photos from the other thread). Big power CATS are not fun to turn at speed with inward prop rotation which is why everyone with big power runs outward rotation becuuse when you have that much power you are not worried about grabbing another few MPH by lifting the nose which is what inward prop rotation promotes on most boats, and they turn completly differently and a thousand percent more positively with props turning out.I suspect this is a big part of the reason it wondlt turn, even when you turn the wheel they don't respond well at that speed, under acceleration and spinning in, you have to kind of "stutter turn" them and that takes years of experience to master.

Tony is lucky - I honestly believe that these Guys had almost zero control, no clue what they were doing. A few seconds away from cutting the M41 in half.

Miracle that no one was killed

 

[Kylemenz1]

Maybe instead of the Tes Martin school they should be required to watch this...http://youtu.be/6tec88z5jrE


Sent from my iPhone

 

[PVHCA]

RD I've been operating boats since I was 12, NEVER a CAT style though. I took safety courses years ago in LHC, before you new what LHC was, LOL!! As I stated earlier, with that kind of power all drivers should learn how to operate and control it. Hell if it was that easy we'd all be NASCAR and F1 drivers. IMO boats with that type of power are just as dangerous and possibly much harder to control than a car.

 

[throttle]

There is a reason that people should take the Tres Martin class.

Dan, this is one thing than ran thru my mind as well!

 

[New to boating]

Here's what I saw.

I just saw the 41 cut way left when he belonged on the CA side. (told to us in the drivers meeting to use the center of the of the river as a center divider) south bound CA side northbound AZ side. The 41 had ample room to stay center or right. He (self admitted) jumped the start. He had no one on his right anywhere near as close to his left.

The 35 was gonna get pinched. Roth was at his 7 o'clock coming quick so...... Wash out Roth or cross the wake and hope for the best. I don't think the 35 was entirely driver error. He was put in a position to make a choice and he chose wrong. Lack of training? Perhaps. They should not have been that wide across that section IMO. Both the 41 (most experienced) and the 35 get equal blame from me.

I suppose the 35 could have gave it more left turn but at the risk of to sharp a turn mishap idk if it would have mattered he could have lost it in either scenario. The 41 should have never went left. Should have stayed true or slowly went right to just west of the center line of the lake.

Rule #1 in any start like this - HOLD YOUR LINE... had they throttled back a bit, trimmed it down just a taste and turned the boat harder to the left there would have been likely been no issue. I believe They were more "hanging on" than driving the boat, I believe they were turning the wheel but not getting the control they needed and committed to WIDE OPEN no matter what. had the boat not crashed they would have cut across the entire fleet. In our sanctioned races we woudl get disqualified for that, you just can't do it.

 

[H20 Toie]

If I ever own a boat with that kind of power bet your ass I will.

Hell i don't have that kind of power and i still did.

One of the things he covers is exactly what happened here.


besides being on the wrong side of the center line

 

[Duffster]

Somehow the guys to the left of him managed to miss the incoming traffic, and not cut off the f32, and cross behind the m41..

I'd say the m35 is 100% at fault.

And let's not forget when shit starts getting that outta whack, why not slow down a hair?

RD

Correct tons of room he tried to cut over for some cleaner water.

 

[throttle]

My observation on this is fault on both sides, but again my observation and opinion. I think Tony could of stayed a bit wider in that turn. He was already pulling ahead of the M35 and F32 and if he would of stayed on line a bit longer and then put the sticks down as they straightened out this would of been avoided. On the other side I think the M35 maybe hit the panic button a bit and tried to cut across (not a good move) obviously. Shitty situation all the way around and I am glad all are ok. Injured, but alive!:thumbsup The boats are replaceable and can be fixed.

Well stated as I am trying to find a nice way of putting it right now.

 

[New to boating]

The M35 , it appears he didn't want to turn while everyone else did and went across the M41's wake. Very lucky, glad it didn't involve any other boats and they only sustained minor injuries considering.

Look at the still photos from the other thread - props "spinning in", they dont like to turn at that speed under acceleration with inward rotation props - its spooky, you turn the wheel, the boat dosent respond, takes years to master it. I don't think he was intentionally taking that like, I think he was trying to turn the boat to the left, udner full throttle acceleration and not enouight experience to know where the edge was so the boat kept drifting. No way they were intentionally trying to cross the transom of the M41 that close.

 

[McRib]

Correct tons of room he tried to cut over for some cleaner water.

That "on coming" traffic was NOT and issue for anyone till Tony began to punch the 35 which would have pinched Roth. I still think Tony should have went left to the az side as instructed in the drivers meeting.

 

[spectras only]

New to boating, you have cat experience, why would these guys with cats choose to turn the props inwards if it inherently affecting the handling ?
I know V's benefit from it but why chance it with cats if it's so critical?

 

[BajaMike]

I agree, he looks out of control!

 

[whiteworks]

I have no idea why this driver would try to cross that wake like that, there was plenty of room to stay the course with a slight correction. total bone head move, and you want to talk about squeezing someone, the guy behind the 41 was put in a very bad situation, could have ended a lot worse. those boys were moving, pulling away from the helos, I'd wager 110+mph.

 

[RiverDave]

Rule #1 in any start like this - HOLD YOUR LINE... had they throttled back a bit, trimmed it down just a taste and turned the boat harder to the left there would have been likely been no issue. I believe They were more "hanging on" than driving the boat, I believe they were turning the wheel but not getting the control they needed and committed to WIDE OPEN no matter what. had the boat not crashed they would have cut across the entire fleet. In our sanctioned races we woudl get disqualified for that, you just can't do it.

YEP..

RD

 

[RiverDave]

New to boating, you have cat experience, why would these guys with cats choose to turn the props inwards if it inherently affecting the handling ?
I know V's benefit from it but why chance it with cats if it's so critical?

Turning in is safer / more stable.. Turning out is more speed / less stable.

DCB turns them in, because the last few mph isn't worth an ill handling boat.

RD

 

[RiverDave]

You guys joke about that shit, but it's not funny.. Whomever that is started a chain reaction that could've killed someone. That boat is waaaaayyyyy bigger then McRibs.. I remember watching him go by the houseboat heading north thinking.. "Damn isn't the poker run about to start?"

RD

 

[CHAD1]

Look at the second still photo. See the other boat in the roost. Guess he was drifting too. He probably wanted to be in the roost.

 

[Hammer]

Look at the still photos from the other thread - props "spinning in", they dont like to turn at that speed under acceleration with inward rotation props - its spooky, you turn the wheel, the boat dosent respond, takes years to master it. I don't think he was intentionally taking that like, I think he was trying to turn the boat to the left, udner full throttle acceleration and not enouight experience to know where the edge was so the boat kept drifting. No way they were intentionally trying to cross the transom of the M41 that close.

Thanks for the insight I've never driven a boat of that caliber, what you are saying makes sense. IMO I would've throttled and trimmed down when I saw the oncoming traffic and held my line then hit WOT after the turn if it seemed safe to do so.

Again,this isn't a race, fuck it, let Tony go no reason to be on the ragged edge coming up on oncoming traffic and a turn.

Again just my .02

 

[Kylemenz1]

Hopefully we can ALL learn something about our boats and increase our skill set with all this bench racing.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[FreeBird236]

We are getting conflicting info on which way is safer on the props, and which side of the river they're supposed to be on...:headscratch:

 

[shintoooo]

How are people that are let's say there for the weekend, don't have any idea what Desert Storm is, Launch at cattail and are just chilling on the lake going about their own way supposed to know that there are boats coming in at 100+ mph and that they are supposed to be out of the way? Maybe they should have someone handing out a flier to people who are about to launch warning them to stay out of the way??

 

[PVHCA]

Thanks for the insight I've never driven a boat of that caliber, what you are saying makes sense. IMO I would've throttled and trimmed down when I saw the oncoming traffic and held my line then hit WOT after the turn if it seemed safe to do so.

Again,this isn't a race, fuck it, let Tony go no reason to be on the ragged edge coming up on oncoming traffic and a turn.

Again just my .02

And if you don't think it's a race and all about bragging rights for these big boat owners I got a bridge for sale!!

 

[regor]

Look at the second still photo. See the other boat in the roost. Guess he was drifting too. He probably wanted to be in the roost.

Look at the line from the 1st to the 2nd still, it changed drastically. The 41 made a money move in a "leisure" race and fucked the Asian in the 35.

 

[whiteworks]

Hopefully we can ALL learn something about our boats and increase our skill set with all this bench racing.


Sent from my iPhone

Yep, rule #1, learn to walk before your run!

 

[Hammer]

We are getting conflicting info on which way is safer on the props, and which side of the river they're supposed to be on...:headscratch:

X2

 

[Duffster]

He could have made up so much time in that boat with miles of lake left if would have played it smart and scrubbed off a little speed and railed down the AZ side.

 

[PVHCA]

How are people that are let's say there for the weekend, don't have any idea what Desert Storm is, Launch at cattail and are just chilling on the lake going about their own way supposed to know that there are boats coming in at 100+ mph and that they are supposed to be out of the way? Maybe they should have someone handing out a flier to people who are about to launch warning them to stay out of the way??

Why Shin? These D-Bags think they own the lake, duh!!

And I'm not lumping all big boat owners into this, just the one's that know they are.

 

[Ziggy]

The guys on the left shouldn't have been that far over to begin with IMO although I get why. Perhaps they need to make that right across from steamboat before they let em drop the hammers. Going past pilot I'd compare to a high speed s turn in F1.......they all aim for the apex.
In the video it does kinda look like the 35 kept drifting straight as the rest of them dialed up the left bend.......
Just my observations from video and stills, I personally have no skills at this level of water speed at all.

From my POS T-mobile thingie

 

[PVHCA]

Its not a race, its a poker run. The cardstop one at DS has always been a friendly competition, not a race.

Hey Pokey, wanna buy some oceanfront property in Arizona?

 

[Havasu Hangin']

That "on coming" traffic was NOT and issue for anyone till Tony began to punch the 35 which would have pinched Roth. I still think Tony should have went left to the az side as instructed in the drivers meeting.

Exactly. Even if there were no other boats around, going from right of centerline to the left of centerline goes against Havasu traffic flow, as well as what they tell you in the drivers meeting.

The fact that there were 3 boats over there, as well as oncoming traffic just makes it more visable.

But at least they "smoked some MTIs"!

 

[spectras only]

Turning in is safer / more stable.. Turning out is more speed / less stable.

DCB turns them in, because the last few mph isn't worth an ill handling boat.

RD

Dave I'm not sure who New to boating is [ maybe it's John Arruda ?] but according to him it's the opposite > "Another problem (HUGE PROBLEM), Props were "spinning in" (look at the still photos from the other thread). Big power CATS are not fun to turn at speed with inward prop rotation which is why everyone with big power runs outward rotation because when you have that much power you are

 

[RiverDave]

Look at the still photos from the other thread - props "spinning in", they dont like to turn at that speed under acceleration with inward rotation props - its spooky, you turn the wheel, the boat dosent respond, takes years to master it. I don't think he was intentionally taking that like, I think he was trying to turn the boat to the left, udner full throttle acceleration and not enouight experience to know where the edge was so the boat kept drifting. No way they were intentionally trying to cross the transom of the M41 that close.

You have your prop rotation backwards.. Spin them outwards on the M41 and you'll pick up 6-8mph instantly. Romer's old boat was setup spinning outwards for all out top end, it has sense then been changed to inward rotation to make it safer to drive around the lake etc, and has in fact lost top end from it's previous setup.

RD

 

[Hammer]

And if you don't think it's a race and all about bragging rights for these big boat owners I got a bridge for sale!!

I agree most Of them are about bragging rights but I would think you would have enough common sense to get out of the throttles in this particular situation.

One would think your life is more important than your ego, even if tony got the jump and was ahead and cut that turn a little tighter than he should have, so what , let him go make the turn,then try to run him down if that's your intentions.

 

[Kylemenz1]

How are people that are let's say there for the weekend, don't have any idea what Desert Storm is, Launch at cattail and are just chilling on the lake going about their own way supposed to know that there are boats coming in at 100+ mph and that they are supposed to be out of the way? Maybe they should have someone handing out a flier to people who are about to launch warning them to stay out of the way??

A few years ago a friend from work took his wife and two young kids to Moabi for a nice scenic canoe trip through the gorge. They were told they would see wild Ass, birds, wild bore, an if they were lucky they would see Mountain Goat. It was the week of DS! The only thing they saw was a bunch of fast boats hauling ass past them in their canoe!


Sent from my iPhone

 

[McRib]

You guys joke about that shit, but it's not funny.. Whomever that is started a chain reaction that could've killed someone. That boat is waaaaayyyyy bigger then McRibs.. I remember watching him go by the houseboat heading north thinking.. "Damn isn't the poker run about to start?"

RD

It had already started. We went to stop 2 first in a and b group as instructed. We watched all the big fast guys take off from out side the north bout line of the channel. We were a good 30 to 45 min behind the first fast group. After I left stop 2 at the landing we grabbed the az side (as instructed) for our south bound departure. We stayed on the AZ side all the way down to the springs. When we got to pilot rock I was the one that noticed the wreck and pointed it out to my navigators. A lot of the fast guys were meandering and caught up to us at black meadow. I should have been no where near any fast boats except for the guys going north. Stop one was loaded with big boats when,we got there.

 

[Stainless]

Does not look like the boat would turn either. As far as being left of center a lot of boats were. I would wager most boats want to run the shortest distance between two points. Unless there is center of lake designation it is to each operators judgement where that is.
Wonder what the pleasure boater headed North on the east side of the lake was thinking?:eek

 

[New to boating]

New to boating, you have cat experience, why would these guys with cats choose to turn the props inwards if it inherently affecting the handling ?
I know V's benefit from it but why chance it with cats if it's so critical?

You would never choose that in a twin 1500 HP 35 foot cat. The benefit in speed would be de-mininus and the cornering / turing is dramatically and negatively impacted.

Racing APBA / Supercat or Super V where you have "spec" engines depending upon the race course) you would select inward rotation becauase it creates "nose (Bow) lift) and you can grab a few miles per hour that way and a few miles per hour in a class with "spec" power (like the 525 Merc #6 package) was a huge deal so you might trade the decrease in handling for the speed at venue like Sarasota or Marathon where the water is predictably calmer. In Miami or Ft lauderdale for example where you have 4 to 6 footers you would select outward rotation because your not going to be racing wide open much and looking for top end speed to gain an advantage.

In lake Havasu with a big power CAT that can run 160,170 or 180 MPH you need handling, the boat needs to turn well and respond well and 3 or 4 MPH won't matter so you would never choose inward rotation and sacrafice control.

Roth, London, Smith - all "spinning out", outward prop rotation. Don't know about the M41 but I woudl guess "spinning out".

 

[530RL]

That looks to be photographed from a Jet Ranger or a Long Ranger. In either event, the aircraft is keeping pace until they start around the corner and the boats leave the aircraft. If a jet ranger, I suspect he was flying fairly light, but had the rear doors off. So if he is following the manual for doors off, he is cruising at 90 knots or 103 mph. If he is not, and I suspect he was moving closer to max cruise of 100 knots, he was moving along at 115 mph. If is is a Long Ranger, add another 10 knots to each number. In either event, they were walking away from the aircraft which were probably fully pulling torque or temp.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Damn this is getting old. Things that go fast crash, sometimes people get hurt, sometimes they dont, sometimes they die. When I get behind the wheel of my race boat I know there is the possibility that I may crash, get hurt, or die. This shouldnt be any different when getting behind the wheel of a 150 mph pleasure boat. Call it a race, call it a poker run, call it a nice run down the lake, who gives a shit. If you are going to fast in a boat, car, bike, skateboard, etc., you run the risk of things going wrong. Shit happens as they say. Why must we go on for days about blame?

 

[FreeBird236]

Exactly. Even if there were no other boats around, going from right of centerline to the left of centerline goes against Havasu traffic flow, as well as what they tell you in the drivers meeting.

The fact that there were 3 boats over there, as well as oncoming traffic just makes it more visable.

But at least they "smoked some MTIs"!

You are in conflict as far as which side of the river you should be on with the guy you're quoting...

 

[throttle]

Its not a race, its a poker run. The cardstop one at DS has always been a friendly competition, not a race.

so, bragging rights and "king of Havasu" came from?

you recall, the resaon they added the shootout a few years ago, right? (to hopefully get the guys to take it easy and save the ego's for saturday)

 

[Duffster]

Question what official dip shit decided to have them go down the AZ side around blind corners against traffic?

 

[Havasu Hangin']

You are in conflict as far as which side of the river you should be on with the guy you're quoting...

Just like a road- you drive on the right (unless you are in the UK...lol)

Never get left of the centerline.

 

[PVHCA]

I agree most Of them are about bragging rights but I would think you would have enough common sense to get out of the throttles in this particular situation.

One would think your life is more important than your ego, even if tony got the jump and was ahead and cut that turn a little tighter than he should have, so what , let him go make the turn,then try to run him down if that's your intentions.

I know what you meant brother!!

so, bragging rights and "king of Havasu" came from?

you recall, the resaon they added the shootout a few years ago, right? (to hopefully get the guys to take it easy and save the ego's for saturday)

Ya no shit, but he's boy's with all of them and he knows how they think, LOL!!

 

[RiverDave]

Look at the line from the 1st to the 2nd still, it changed drastically. The 41 made a money move in a "leisure" race and fucked the Asian in the 35.

In the pic it looks like that. In the video it looks like he is pointing at the centerline of the lake ahead.

Islanger post up the rest of the video!

 

[PVHCA]

Question what official dip shit decided to have them go down the AZ side around blind corners against traffic?

One of many can probably be blamed for that, LOL!!