What Would You Do?

[Deckin Around]

One bad spoils the bunch

I agree log the threat with local pd. It’s good to have that on record, especially if he threatens you again or takes it any further if you let his dad go. That’s a slam dunk to get a restraining order also.

 

[Joker]

Take the $400.00 that is owed back to you out of his bonus, then tell him things just suddenly got slow and you'll call him when things pick up. His son will have lost so much weight from not eating, therefore you've eliminated his threat as well. After that, his wife will leave him after he pawns her wedding ring to make his truck payment.
When Verizon cancels his family phone plan, you'll finally be able to pick up the phone again without having to explain to him why work still hasn't picked up. You'll be happy to be a business owner again in 2 months time.

Merry Christmas

 

[Havasu blue label]

Let it go give him his bonus then cut his hours . There’s lawyers out there that will pick this crap up

 

[Sherpa]

Enthusiasm is contagious.

So is the lack of it……

I like the thought of getting ahold of him today,
Let him know he will be in a meeting first thing
Thursday morning.

He can stew over the possibilities for a couple days.

I’m not an HR person whatsoever, but I think
The “business is slow we’re doing a RIF
And he could be elegable for possible rehire
In the future.”

His bonus will be off the table due to the loan minus the $100 paid back.

 

[clark]

Yes I don’t see what legal action they could take. I have a voicemail with threats over a Christmas bonus that is a gift not a necessity lol.

If you are going to let him go or just give him a corrective interview make sure that you have a 3rd party in the room when ever you do this to make sure that he can't come back on you with any legal action--document--document--CYA

 

[Joe mama]

If any employees know about this website, he may not come back. lol

 

[Tremor Therapy]

At best, it would be a lewd/harassing phone call. Usually those have to be done repeatedly to be prosecuted.

This would not fall under criminal threats because the criteria for a criminal threat is that it has to be immediate and credible. The fact it was done over the phone does not make it immediate.

Having run a business in the past that sounds similar to yours, I'd suggest handling this as two separate issues.

What would you have done if the phone call (done by a different person than your employee) never happened? Probably nothing...you'd have give the guy his bonus at the next opportunity, and he would continue working there.

Yeah, there was a misunderstanding and the guy thought he didn't get a bonus. Where bonuses are usually given and someone doesn't get one, that's kind of a slap in the face and he went home to bitch about it. Anybody would.

I'd sit down with the guy and say, "Here's your bonus. It was ready the other day, but sorry I wasn't able to get it to you and some of the others before you left the lunch. Lots of shit going on."

After that is settled, then I'd tell him we have something else to talk about. Play the voice mail and ask him what's up with that. Maybe say that seems to be an indicator that he was pretty upset and obviously mentioned something about it at home. Ask him if he's really that unhappy at your company or if there is some other issue. Use it as an opportunity to find out what he and other employees might find unsatisfactory about their employment.

Let his reaction guide what you do from there. Chances are he will be remorseful in light of the fact the bonus situation was resolved and his employment can continue. If not though, this gives you additional perspective into the issues and allows you to suggest that he resign if he feels it is necessary. If he does, then at least your unemployment won't get dinged. If he doesn't and is still a dick, then fire him. Not because of the voice mail, but because you both agree that the employment arrangement is unsatisfactory and it was best to go your separate ways. If his attitude is middle of the road, then keep him on and monitor the situation (actually, monitor it no matter what if he stays on). I'm betting after you get the bonus thing settled, he'll be fine. That's how this all started.

After that, I'd let him know that his kid calling and making threats is unacceptable and if it happens again, the situation will be handled an entirely different way, including involving law enforcement as necessary. I'd bet that's enough for that guy to go home and slap his kid in the head.

You can't fire the guy for something the kid did though. Too much liability.

This right here....we work in Commiefornia, and there is just too much liability to just let him go outright with no write-ups, warnings, anything.

 

[Melloyellovector]

Fuck it, pipe wrench to the knee caps Thursday, he can collect workers comp while recovering for his bonus.

 

[CLdrinker]

Ummmm...

California Is an "at will" state.

But you can be sued for anything. So don’t give them a reason to mention in the lawsuit.

 

[Singleton]

What a turn of events in this thread.
If the guy needed a $500 loan, I am not sure he will have the money or smarts to lawyer up.

That said, Ca is a At-will employment state and employers cannot base firing decisions on illegal discrimination or retaliation. If the VM is played and he lawyers up, it could be considered retaliation.

If you move forward with termination, he is being terminated for leaving a company function without authorization and the VM does not get played. If VM is played, he needs to resign and pay him a severance that includes language that prohibits him for filing litigation down the road.

 

[CLdrinker]

Take the $400.00 that is owed back to you out of his bonus, then tell him things just suddenly got slow and you'll call him when things pick up. His son will have lost so much weight from not eating, therefore you've eliminated his threat as well. After that, his wife will leave him after he pawns her wedding ring to make his truck payment.
When Verizon cancels his family phone plan, you'll finally be able to pick up the phone again without having to explain to him why work still hasn't picked up. You'll be happy to be a business owner again in 2 months time.

Merry Christmas

Saying you’re slow is great for his lawyer. Now all he has to do is prove profits didn’t decrease. Slam dunk your fucked.

My buddy is currently in a lawsuit with the same company I sued. they gave me no reason I got no where. The told him they were slow. Guess who is about to win?

 

[RiverDave]

Thinking about it. If you do fire him. Like mentioned don't give a reason or even mention the call. Don't mention the loan. Just let him go with his 2 weeks. That way like CL mentioned there is no reason for wrongful termination.

This.. I’m telling ya don’t say shit don’t give him a reason or explanation just can his ass and move on.

Think of the phrase “anything you say CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU in court.” While it’s for a different reason the phrase applies here as well.

Nothing you say is gonna be used for your benefit. Just move on.

RD

 

[RVR SWPR]

Might have been mentioned. Employee family at this time has no idea recently YOU loaned $500.00. Possible employee has some sort of personal problem family not aware of.

 

[Done-it-again]

This.. I’m telling ya don’t say shit don’t give him a reason or explanation just can his ass and move on.

Think of the phrase “anything you say CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU in court.” While it’s for a different reason the phrase applies here as well.

Nothing you say is gonna be used for your benefit. Just move on.

RD

Unfortunately you can’t just can for no reason in CA and he will be sued for wrongful termination and will lose.

 

[RiverDave]

Unfortunately you can’t just can for no reason in CA and he will be sued for wrongful termination and will lose.

Reads pretty clear to me..

 

[NicPaus]

I saw that same thing. Never had to fire anyone. Same guys for 18 years. Few have left on there own.

Do they claim covenant of good faith and fair dealing?

Give them 2 weeks pay and if they ask why. Hand them a photocopy of this. Never say anything or give a reason.

 

[CLdrinker]

Unfortunately you can’t just can for no reason in CA and he will be sued for wrongful termination and will lose.

You absolutely can and then the burden of why and proving why is in the employee.

It worked great for my former employer.

 

[Mr. C]

After reading all this, I'm really glad I was a roofer. On any day, calling a coworker, foreman or a boss an asshole was pretty normal. Threats of violence were commonplace. Hell, then we'd still drink beer together, and do the same shit the next day.
They were simpler times

I’m just really glad I grew up when I did. Simpler better times.
Got my first union job in 84
We. Like you would cuss at each other argue Talk more shit then you can imagine and did our jobs day in and day out. Always had respect for each other no matter what the issue was.
Not that way any more.

 

[BHC Vic]

I only read the first post but my thoughts are, I really hate firing people or laying them off. But one thing I will absolutely not put up with are threats. I never send apprentices home but if they threaten me they are going home. For whatever reason that’s the one hard line I have

 

[GRADS]

Damn, lots of scrooges in here. It's Christmas. Give him his bonus and move on.

 

[Done-it-again]

Reads pretty clear to me..


View attachment 1463203

Good luck with that. No matter what, you will be sued and you will spend money fighting it.

Justi saying.

 

[rivermobster]

But you can be sued for anything. So don’t give them a reason to mention in the lawsuit.

There are only 3 things you can use for in a wrongful termination lawsuit.

Race. Sex. Age.

In in the case of the first two ..

You have to be able to Prove it. So no, you can't really sue for just anything when you are terminated.

 

[Done-it-again]

There are only 3 things you can use for in a wrongful termination lawsuit.

Race. Sex. Age.

In in the case of the first two ..

You have to be able to Prove it. So no, you can't really sue for just anything when you are terminated.

You can and you as the business owner have to prove that the suit is bogus. No matter what you are paying $$$$ to fight it or just pay the 10-15k they are suing you for.

 

[rivermobster]

You can and you as the business owner have to prove that the suit is bogus. No matter what you are paying $$$$ to fight it or just pay the 10-15k they are suing you for.

I'm pretty sure, innocent until proven guilty, might be a part of the equation?

 

[Done-it-again]

I'm pretty sure, innocent until proven guilty, might be a part of the equation?

Paying a suit is not an admission of guilt.

 

[shintoooo]

Have him sign up for RDP and then I can ban him

 

[CLdrinker]

There are only 3 things you can use for in a wrongful termination lawsuit.

Race. Sex. Age.

In in the case of the first two ..

You have to be able to Prove it. So no, you can't really sue for just anything when you are terminated.

Well I have the NDA from
My former employer and a pay out that says otherwise. And my coworker is about to get payed for being terminated for lack of work.

So there is that.

 

[CLdrinker]

You can and you as the business owner have to prove that the suit is bogus. No matter what you are paying $$$$ to fight it or just pay the 10-15k they are suing you for.

This

 

[Javajoe]

Sooo bullshit when people sue for being fired. If it’s for race, religion I get it. All other shit you’re a fucking pussy. Go get another job.

 

[Member: 71]

Strike 1: Was him asking for a loan, not paying back and you loaning it. Which to me leads, he can’t be trusted on the job site…what else can he get his hands on at the job site of value?

Strike 2: His kid, and his threat. This day and age, trust no one and their ability to do harm.

Strike 3: You hired the wife’s uncles brother in law - keep the familia as far as possible. Family is family, business is business.

Merry Christmas.

 

[oldboatsrule]

The typical California firing goes like this.

Mr x , Your position here at ( your company name) is no longer required. Thank you for your xx years of exemplary service. We wish you the best in your future endeavors. Thank you and have a nice day.

This is an "At will state" and your will to deal with his ass just ended.

Never fret over terminating. It's business. Do it, and do it well !

Merry Christmas

As to what would I do? If he makes me 3x his salary every week, I would let him off. I would give him his bonus after ribbing him about how the people who stayed and you used his check to pay the bar tab.

In a week or so I would remind him of the call his spawn made. And ask him how he would deal with it.

If he does not make me money or is a constant pain in the ass, I would use this as motivation to "clean house". And I would remove "All the dead wood".

Happy New Year

 

[lakemadness]

Ummmm...

California Is an "at will" state.

Reading other posts makes it sound like it’s not.

 

[Singleton]

Well I have the NDA from
My former employer and a pay out that says otherwise. And my coworker is about to get payed for being terminated for lack of work.

So there is that.

Everyone signs that documented when terminated. Take the severance and sign document, or walk without the money and try to sue. Minute to sign, your ability to sue is done in most cases.

Your buddy must have a few things on his side. Very few win wrongful termination lawsuits and most don’t try. Lack or work products has to be documented very well for a company to win.

 

[NicPaus]

I was wrongfully terminated! Why. Crickets.

Sounds like the best response is none. They can file suit. First question would be. Why were you wrongfully terminated.

Lots of BS CA lawsuits. My Realtor Co worker is currently being sued for 30k for replying to a text. Text. Does the owner accept section 8. Reply. Was I don't think so. Suing for discrimination and willing to settle for 8k.

She has a rental listing currently. She asked for a credit report from applicant. Applicant says I am on a voucher and that is discrimination. You can't request or run there credit if on section 8. Can't use any other response besides someone with higher income got the place. Can't even say someone more qualified.

Fucking world we live in here in CA.

 

[FishSniper]

Have him sign up for RDP and then I can ban him

There’s someone else here you should be banning but Dave continues to allow him to come back business must be down lmao.

 

[530RL]

Reads pretty clear to me..


View attachment 1463203

There is winning, and there is cost of defense.

Those billboards with lawyers phone numbers on them aren’t cheap.

 

[rivermobster]

Reading other posts makes it sound like it’s not.

You know what opinions are like right?

I think RD posted the actual laws?

Most places I was shop foreman at, we would do three write ups, before we cut someone loose.

People fire themselves.

 

[rrrr]

I feel stupid telling this story, because I never should have let it happen from a work standpoint, and I sure as hell shouldn't have been generous enough to try and help someone.

In 2006, I had an employee, a project manager, whose 21 year old son was diagnosed with aggressive colon cancer. I gave him paid for time off when needed for his son's doctor visits, then surgery. That was over a five month period. When it became clear the disease was fatal and the kid had just a couple of months to live, I told him to stay home, and I would cover his salary. I also told him I would handle his projects myself, and I wouldn't be calling him unless it was completely necessary. I showed up at their house the next day with a power recliner for his son, because he was too weak to get up by himself. Thirteen weeks later he died.

This PM was not a star. I had hired him about sixteen months before the son became ill. He couldn't reliably adhere to a schedule, and he was weak dealing with subcontractors. He was making $105K, and I wasn't getting my money's worth. When I took over his work, I found out how inept he really was. His projects were behind schedule and over budget, which he had been concealing from me and the accounting people. The schedule is critical in data center construction. My company was the only one in DFW that had the skills, subcontractors, and supplier relationships to build out 30,000 to 50,000 SF in sixteen weeks, and this dumbass was killing that reputation with the two projects he was responsible for. A month after his kid died, he announced he had a better job and quit. This guy was also a supposed devout Christian, went to church three times a week, etc., etc.

Two months later, I found out by talking to one of my subs he tried to poach, that this shitbag was telling his new employer and my subs I was a shitty boss, didn't know what I was doing, and treated him like shit. He had also contacted some of my clients and tried to steal them from me.

This was the guy for whom I shelled out around $35K in wages and another $20K in 941 taxes and benefits while his son was dying. He was able to spend the last three months of the kid's life at home every day. His wife didn't work.

I called him, told him he was a despicable piece of shit, and if I ever ran into him on the street, there was going to be a terrible fucking accident. I couldn't believe someone could be that duplicitous and evil, and me, being the empathetic softie, had been fucked over by this professed Christian and deacon of his church. I thought about calling his employer and discussing the subject. I had too much integrity to do it, plus my motives would obviously have been questioned and the story spread around town.

I'm getting hugely pissed off writing this. This asshole was taking advantage of me while I was trying to do good in the face of tragedy, and then had the balls to smear me and try to steal my clients and subs. I hope karma smashed his ass during the 2008 recession and COVID. He deserves it.

 

[Riverfamlee]

Someone needs to rewatch Christmas vacation lol. The threat is definitely out of line but he was also counting on that bonus . Most people won’t ask “ hey where’s our bonus” and when he didn’t get it he probably assumed whatever plans he had were screwed.

Kid and dad maybe had a few and got some liquid courage to tell the boss off -idk. Either way your people should have known the bonuses were still coming. It’s a sensitive time of year for a lot of people.

 

[BHC Vic]

You know what opinions are like right?

I think RD posted the actual laws?

Most places I was shop foreman at, we would do three write ups, before we cut someone loose.

People fire themselves.

That’s how it is at my job. 3 strikes and you’re out. Better try to foul that last one off

 

[Bajastu]

I’ve worked at large corporations and Christmas bonus were unheard of. Smaller companies usually support this type of behavior. But at the end of the day, if a smaller company has had poor performance or lowered revenue for that year, that bonus may be diminished or not given out at all. People who think that this token of appreciation given out by ownership is mandatory are delusional.

Christmas bonus are just a indiscretional bonus. Appreciated, but not mandatory or measurable by employee performance. Entitlement runs rampant these days.

 

[regor]

Unfortunately you can’t just can for no reason in CA and he will be sued for wrongful termination and will lose.

I’ve done it multiple times when I’m not satisfied with their performance. I don’t write up because I don’t want some disgruntled bastard stealing or scheming.

“It’s the end of the road, good luck to you.”

 

[Sportin' Wood]

@JFMFG I was thinking of your situation yesterday, I hope it did not distract from your holiday. I would like to offer some advice for consideration, since it's likely you'll find yourself in some type of variation of this situation again in your career.

I'm fortunate that my company has invested a pile of money into my leadership growth the last 12 years. I love to share, but I appreciate everyone has to walk their own path.

You might consider in 2025 making it clear that the bonus is a performance based bonus calculated on the companies earnings. I would consider coupling that with some type of employee performance rating. This might help with the entitlement problem it sounds like you might be dealing with.

The second advice I would like to provide is a good book. Angie and I have a pile of books, but this one stays on my desk, and I thought enough of it to haul it south and read it again this winter. Energy Leadership by Bruce D Schneider. My copy is riddled with post it tabs and notes. I use it as a reminder.

Amazon.com

Merry Christmas

 

[JFMFG]

@JFMFG I was thinking of your situation yesterday, I hope it did not distract from your holiday. I would like to offer some advice for consideration, since it's likely you'll find yourself in some type of variation of this situation again in your career.

I'm fortunate that my company has invested a pile of money into my leadership growth the last 12 years. I love to share, but I appreciate everyone has to walk their own path.

You might consider in 2025 making it clear that the bonus is a performance based bonus calculated on the companies earnings. I would consider coupling that with some type of employee performance rating. This might help with the entitlement problem it sounds like you might be dealing with.

The second advice I would like to provide is a good book. Angie and I have a pile of books, but this one stays on my desk, and I thought enough of it to haul it south and read it again this winter. Energy Leadership by Bruce D Schneider. My copy is riddled with post it tabs and notes. I use it as a reminder.

Amazon.com

Merry Christmas

I’ve lost sleep over this the last few days. Ran 100 different scenarios of how or what we can do to prevent this in the future. A performance evaluation/ attendance evaluation is something I thought of a few weeks back before this even happened trying to entice people to maybe not call off as much kind of thing. I will definitely have to pick the book up and give it a read. I’ve took a step back and tried to put myself in someone’s shoes who is relying on any sort of bonus no matter dollar value. So I get it to an extent but there is ways to go about it. I hope you and Angie have a very Merry Christmas and hope to see you on the water soon.

 

[Singleton]

Someone needs to rewatch Christmas vacation lol. The threat is definitely out of line but he was also counting on that bonus . Most people won’t ask “ hey where’s our bonus” and when he didn’t get it he probably assumed whatever plans he had were screwed.

Kid and dad maybe had a few and got some liquid courage to tell the boss off -idk. Either way your people should have known the bonuses were still coming. It’s a sensitive time of year for a lot of people.

Bonus = at-risk pay. Just becuase you got one in the past, does not equal you always get one In the future.

I am worn out on folks thinking bonuses are guaranteed.
When my wife had her bakery (started as an at-home then expanded to renting kitchen space), we gave bonuses until Covid. Covid hit and we went from 25k+ in revenue a month to zero. Come Dec 2020, almost all the employees who worked part-time were complaining they were not getting bonuses. I called a company meeting in January and addressed the topic. Told the team, we paid you for 7 months with zero orders and you are complaining because you did not get a holiday bonus. It was at that meeting, we told everyone, effective Feb 1, the business was closing. Handed everyone a check for January hours and told them, consider this your bonus. It was only then, almost all employees asked what they could do, to keep the business running.

 

[BHC Vic]

I’ve lost sleep over this the last few days. Ran 100 different scenarios of how or what we can do to prevent this in the future. A performance evaluation/ attendance evaluation is something I thought of a few weeks back before this even happened trying to entice people to maybe not call off as much kind of thing. I will definitely have to pick the book up and give it a read. I’ve took a step back and tried to put myself in someone’s shoes who is relying on any sort of bonus no matter dollar value. So I get it to an extent but there is ways to go about it. I hope you and Angie have a very Merry Christmas and hope to see you on the water soon.

I don’t think I called out sick once in 2024. We don’t get bonuses but the boss shows appreciation in other ways. Bonuses would probably be a slippery slope for us. We do performance evaluations but I’m not really a fan of those. Last boss I didn’t get along with gave me all 2’s. This boss gave me all 4’s. You would think someone in the office would notice and dig into that but nope.

 

[Keymyster]

Unfortunately you have to either fight the son or dad in the parking lot while the other employees watch .

Anyway you slice this a threat was made towards you. Cut em loose imo.

Pull a Rip on him. Beat his ass and take him to the train station. Done deal.

 

[Your ad here]

I’ve lost sleep over this the last few days. Ran 100 different scenarios of how or what we can do to prevent this in the future. A performance evaluation/ attendance evaluation is something I thought of a few weeks back before this even happened trying to entice people to maybe not call off as much kind of thing. I will definitely have to pick the book up and give it a read. I’ve took a step back and tried to put myself in someone’s shoes who is relying on any sort of bonus no matter dollar value. So I get it to an extent but there is ways to go about it. I hope you and Angie have a very Merry Christmas and hope to see you on the water soon.

Dont loose sleep over it. People are their own worse enemy. People that are relying on a bonus have financial problems a bonus won't fix. No need to put yourself in their shoes. Financial problems are fixed by first looking at expenses, not asking for more money or a bonus.
Don't hold your breath a performance review will make things better. It's very tough to get people to change their minds for the better and that's why they are in the position they're in, their choice.
Focus on the business, spend time with your family, and enjoy the money you earned and why you're in the position you're in. Don't let the employees live in your head.

 

[rmarion]

JFMFG

Merry Christmas

1. Boss MAKES all the RULES

2. Cancer spreads!

3. I fired 2 of my 3 sons. They were not Cancer... But F.ed up HUGE.. Partied too hard night before... No showed to work next day.... Crew foreman waited for their arrival. Cost my Company 3k .


Your Team is WATCHING how this plays out


Good LUCK!!

 

[Riverfamlee]

Bonus = at-risk pay. Just becuase you got one in the past, does not equal you always get one In the future.

I am worn out on folks thinking bonuses are guaranteed.
When my wife had her bakery (started as an at-home then expanded to renting kitchen space), we gave bonuses until Covid. Covid hit and we went from 25k+ in revenue a month to zero. Come Dec 2020, almost all the employees who worked part-time were complaining they were not getting bonuses. I called a company meeting in January and addressed the topic. Told the team, we paid you for 7 months with zero orders and you are complaining because you did not get a holiday bonus. It was at that meeting, we told everyone, effective Feb 1, the business was closing. Handed everyone a check for January hours and told them, consider this your bonus. It was only then, almost all employees asked what they could do, to keep the business running.

100% agree. But the employer should also make sure bonus metrics/expectations are transparent and communicated up front. He (employer) set that expectation by handing them out year over year as a Christmas bonus and not a performance bonus. So of course they expected it to continue since they didn’t hear otherwise.