What Would You Do?

[HCP3]

You shouldn't allow anything threatening to you or your business.

I would imagine physical threats is enough to fire someone in any state, but my advice is to brush up on HR/employment laws so that you are covered.

 

[rivermobster]

First off, if someone threatened you?

I'd call the local watch commander, explain the situation and play him the tape.

Get his 2 cents on the deal. (He will most likely go visit the son)

Then do what someone else said ...

Call him Now, and let him know about the upcoming meeting Next week.

Good luck!

 

[Lumpy]

I suggest any course of action that leaves you with a clear conscience…nothing better than a clear conscience on Christmas Eve.

 

[angiebaby]

Don’t know if I can act as if it didn’t happen. A talk needs to be had I feel. I’m assuming the dad knew his kid was calling me.

Well, at the very least, the dad was bitching to his son. Your call. It all boils down to whether or not dad is a decent employee or not to me. Does he make you money? If it was me, though, first time he started calling in, or showing up late, he'd be gone.

 

[DILLIGAF]

What kid calls up and bitches at his Dads boss? WTF

It sounds like he is a toxic, bitter employee to be talking to his kid OR around his kid about you and his work. Enough for the kid to make a call like that. I assume he might not be a kid though based on him threatening you.

Anyhow.....base your decision on his past performance but I can almost guarantee you he is creating a toxic environment around the company.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

2 cents.

I assume you don't have an HR staff member? I also assume this is California? Tread Lightly. I wish we lived in a world that you could terminate an employee at any time for any reason. There is no doubt in my mind this guy will poison the well, if he has not already. Toxic employees are cancer. 20 years ago I would walk him, without saying a word. Today, not so much.

Was (is) he a good employee? Is he at all worth saving? What is the downstream risk with other employees, they all talk. Does he make you money? Sounds like no.

Tough situation.

Maybe this will help. I've seen this done by our HR team.

They print a severance check and ask for a resignation. The employee makes the choice, take the severance package or we start the long difficult process of termination and they get nothing. They do this by laying out facts without emotion. They make them sign a non disclosure.

"It seems obvious that you are unhappy working in this environment based on this call I received from your son. No one should be in a situation where they spend a third of their day unhappy, I would like to give you this opportunity to seek a better work environment by offering you this separation agreement and severance package(his bonus and loan forgiveness) in exchange for your resignation." "If you choose to stay on we will be putting you on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) and working toward improving our relationship."

This is a good example of the need for HR. Which BTW 90% of the time I hate HR until I need them for the 10% like this.

Just try and leave emotion out of it. I suck at that also.

 

[lbhsbz]

Did he show up today to work the 1/2 day?

 

[530RL]

Can’t make this shit up if I tried. Today I took all the employees out for our annual Christmas lunch. I usually pull each one into my office before we go thank them personally and hand them their bonus check. Anyways didn’t have time to do that this year got side tracked with some other stuff a website meeting that went on longer than expected. We go to lunch eat and people start excusing themselves. I thought to myself fuck it let them go and everyone who stays I’ll give their checks to them today and thank them as a group. The ones who left I planned to give their checks to tomorrow since we are working a half day. I gave checks to 20 of the 25 people I had with us. I get home about 2 wife and kids were at her parents making cookies. I may have closed my eyes and took a little cat nap. I wake up to a voicemail from one of my guys kids who used to work for us also. The message was along the lines of how can you have a lunch and not give my dad a bonus etc. meanwhile I gave his dad a 500$ personal loan out of my pocket a month or so back. He’s paid me $100.00 back. He ends the message saying watch my back as he’s gonna “pull up” on me. Part of me wants to just shit can the kids dad now part of me doesn’t want him to suffer the actions of his kid even though obviously he was running his mouth to him. Part of me really doesn’t want to give him his bonus now either. What to do? What would you do?

Based upon the above, You have an employee who left lunch and did not receive his bonus check.

He did not threaten you, he did not complain to you, according to your description he has done nothing in violation of any employment policy or employment law that I can imagine? Based upon solely the above, there is no legal cause to dismiss him.

You have assumed he told his adult child and his adult child threatened you, but the employee did not. Probably a fair assumption but not germane to the situation.

I'm not sure what your basis is for firing this employee? He is not legally responsible for his adult child.

With respect to the bonus, it is for his work throughout the course of the year. If you already wrote and signed it, I would assume you believed up to the phone call that he deserved it. If so, I would give it to him.

With respect to the phone call, I would probably completely ignore it other than to explain to the employee that there was a message from his adult offspring and that individual is banned from the premises for his conduct.

These are professional problems, handle them with calm and thoughtful professionalism.

 

[monkeyswrench]

After reading all this, I'm really glad I was a roofer. On any day, calling a coworker, foreman or a boss an asshole was pretty normal. Threats of violence were commonplace. Hell, then we'd still drink beer together, and do the same shit the next day.
They were simpler times

 

[GRADS]

If RD doesn't send me my moderator bonus I'm going to "pull up" on him.

 

[Runs2rch]

If RD doesn't send me my moderator bonus I'm going to "pull up" on him.

Don't forget your "creating content bonus" that falls under your digital creator title hahaha

 

[Deckin Around]

I think the idea mentioned about leaving him a voicemail to set up a meeting Thursday morning is perfect. Let him sweat over Christmas.

 

[havasu5150]

Can’t make this shit up if I tried. Today I took all the employees out for our annual Christmas lunch. I usually pull each one into my office before we go thank them personally and hand them their bonus check. Anyways didn’t have time to do that this year got side tracked with some other stuff a website meeting that went on longer than expected. We go to lunch eat and people start excusing themselves. I thought to myself fuck it let them go and everyone who stays I’ll give their checks to them today and thank them as a group. The ones who left I planned to give their checks to tomorrow since we are working a half day. I gave checks to 20 of the 25 people I had with us. I get home about 2 wife and kids were at her parents making cookies. I may have closed my eyes and took a little cat nap. I wake up to a voicemail from one of my guys kids who used to work for us also. The message was along the lines of how can you have a lunch and not give my dad a bonus etc. meanwhile I gave his dad a 500$ personal loan out of my pocket a month or so back. He’s paid me $100.00 back. He ends the message saying watch my back as he’s gonna “pull up” on me. Part of me wants to just shit can the kids dad now part of me doesn’t want him to suffer the actions of his kid even though obviously he was running his mouth to him. Part of me really doesn’t want to give him his bonus now either. What to do? What would you do?

I did too, Dave's gonna suspend us without pay

I missed it too. Thats going on my permanent record

 

[GRADS]

Don't forget your "creating content bonus" that falls under your digital creator title hahaha

We have a separate Pay-per-View agreement for that. I also have a company car.

 

[DILLIGAF]

After reading all this, I'm really glad I was a roofer. On any day, calling a coworker, foreman or a boss an asshole was pretty normal. Threats of violence were commonplace. Hell, then we'd still drink beer together, and do the same shit the next day.
They were simpler times

But if a grown kid called up and threatened you as the boss....that is not the same. Again I am assuming he is grown and not a 12 year old making threats

 

[4Waters]

But if a grown kid called up and threatened you as the boss....that is not the same. Again I am assuming he is grown and not a 12 year old making threats

Late 20's

 

[monkeyswrench]

But if a grown kid called up and threatened you as the boss....that is not the same. Again I am assuming he is grown and not a 12 year old making threats

All I worked with were "grown kids"...we were all rejects, like the island of unwanted toys
We didn't have anything like HR to worry about...parole officers maybe, but no HR

 

[Bajastu]

This employee and his family are a liability and a cancer to the company. Tread lightly since the voicemail was not left by the employee. The voicemail cannot be the reason to fire a someone that did not make the threat. Your reason for termination will need to be directed to work performance, job attendance, etc…

Do not play the voicemail, as this could create a wrongful termination case. I would hold onto the voicemail because terminating this employee will outrage the son even more. I have a feeling that you may need to file a Sheriff’s report for the threat. In fact, you may want to do this preemptively to protect yourself for the possible fallout that could ensue.

In the end, I would terminate the employee, forgive the loan, and pay the bonus just out of spite. If the man asks if this was due to the voicemail, say “no”. I'm sure that the son will share with the fired dad that he had left a threating voicemail after the fact. Blame can only be directed one way after that.

 

[calkid]

I missed the the kid was a former employee, no choice but to let him go.

Don't erase the message incase he tries to sue you and definitely let him listen to the message.

Absolutely keep the voicemail but don't play it for anyone or mention it, fire Dad. Using the voicemail too early gives them time to fabricate a scenario that makes you the villain prior to a wrongful termination suit. Let them think you didn't keep it, use it to your advantage later.

 

[Your ad here]

I am failing to see why the employee should be fired? Someone explain to me. Leaving lunch early isn't really a big reason and it was mentioned later that he was still on company time. The loan is a personal matter between two adults since it was personal. Loan was from JFMFG, not the business.
If I got fired because of a voicemail that wasn't me speaking and I didn't do anything to justify being fired I would get an attorney.
Hey JFMFG why did you fire the guy? Because someone that wasn't him left me a voicemail crying about a bonus and a threat. It wasn't him leaving the voicemail but I'm still holding him responsible for a voicemail that wasn't left by him.

 

[DILLIGAF]

All I worked with were "grown kids"...we were all rejects, like the island of unwanted toys
We didn't have anything like HR to worry about...parole officers maybe, but no HR

lol.....I get it but its a workers son doing the threatening....not the worker himself

 

[Icky]

Based upon the above, You have an employee who left lunch and did not receive his bonus check.

He did not threaten you, he did not complain to you, according to your description he has done nothing in violation of any employment policy or employment law that I can imagine? Based upon solely the above, there is no legal cause to dismiss him.

You have assumed he told his adult child and his adult child threatened you, but the employee did not. Probably a fair assumption but not germane to the situation.

I'm not sure what your basis is for firing this employee? He is not legally responsible for his adult child.

With respect to the bonus, it is for his work throughout the course of the year. If you already wrote and signed it, I would assume you believed up to the phone call that he deserved it. If so, I would give it to him.

With respect to the phone call, I would probably completely ignore it other than to explain to the employee that there was a message from his adult offspring and that individual is banned from the premises for his conduct.

These are professional problems, handle them with calm and thoughtful professionalism.

This

 

[Flyinbowtie]

My 2 cents...

The son calling you and saying he is gonna pull down on you indicates both he and his Dad have some serious problems.
I would make damn sure that message is saved and can't be lost.
I dunno about calling the cops...yet.
I would do as others have said and call Dad in for a discussion. On the record, recorded. With a witness, if you can get one.
Tell him upfront you are recording the conversation.
Play the message for him. Repeat the part where the son threatens you.
Then sit back and see what he says. Watch his body language as well as hearing what he says.
Get his response on tape.
Then, show him the bonus check right before you tear it in half and present him with his walking papers.
Tell him you don't want to see him or his son, or hear anything from them ever again.
Tell him you will be calling the local cop shop and letting them know, to document the incident at a minimum. Then do it.
I would raise my personal preparedness level for awhile as well.

You don't need shit like this in your life, I cannot see any plus side to continuing to employ the guy. This is the sort of stunt that is not one you just sweep under the rug.

 

[DILLIGAF]

You guys telling him to fire him for something a non employee did is not going to fly That is a separate criminal complaint if wanted.

Distant family ties complicate all of this but you CAN NOT hold the Dad liable for that call directly.

EDIT>>>>>Unless the Dad tells you he told his son to make the call......................or had knowledge of it and agrees with it.....something along those lines

you do need to talk about it with the employee......

ask them about it and if they had any knowledge prior or after the call was made. I do not think you HAVE to have him listen to the recording but I probably would.

ask them what should you do about this situation

advise you are recording the conversation prior to starting and record after advisement of this not before.

Absolutely have a witness there that is in a "management" role or HR with the company.

Let them talk and then advise them you need to think about what are your options and will let them know. Get their side of the story and thats it. Do not have any idle conversations about what is going on.

Give them the rest of the day off with pay as you take this under consideration and advise him to report back the next day at the office unless notified otherwise.

Get some type of advisement from someone that handles HR professionally, make a decision and stick with it.

I would definitely get a restraining order on his son ASAP so that base is covered. If he shows up at your office handle it as you would any other physical threat

 

[Bullet28]

It’s easy for me to say what you should do, but here’s my take. The $400.00 loan balance comes out of the bonus. As others have said the dad and his son were talking you can’t have someone threaten you.You are not the one as an owner that owes the dad any explanation especially after the dad was bitching to his son. You don’t need this in your life, don’t ever discount a threat as meaningless.

Lastly you did nothing wrong, Full disclosure on my part I did edit due to it being pointed out , you probably can’t fire the dad over the phone call by the son. But you can report the call and that’s what I would at least do. This forum is full of articles posted where we read someone threatened to do something, and it gets blown off and then well we all know what can and does happen.

 

[Todd Mohr]

Checks were cut today his was in the middle of the batch. They normally receive day of Christmas party which is today. Don’t really think I need to own anything. They’re the ones who left early. I shouldn’t cater to them.

I disagree with you on this, if one of my employees went home mad because he didn't know about the bonus checks, I would feel like shit. "Hey guys I have your bonus checks and I'll hand them out after we are done eating" Problem solved. I'm guessing this guy will be very apologetic when he hears the vm, call him and set thing right before Christmas, remember nothing good happens from letting our ego get in the way. These checks might be chump change to you, but he might really be needing it, way better to be in your shoes than his. In no way am I condoning the kids actions and he needs an ass whooping for the threat. Merry Christmas sir, you are a good man to be giving bonuses.

 

[Tamalewagon]

I'm sure you will keep a cool head about you but remember, if your company is in Commifornia, you better document his actions and have several past "write ups" to protect yourself when you terminate this dirt bag. Employment laws protect employees, not employers sadly.

 

[HBCraig]

Tell Dad about his kid
That's not acceptable
Then tell him if you hear another word from that little brat you will no longer be his boss

 

[samsah33]

I'm in the camp where what the son did was separate from the father. Holding the father responsible is guilt by association. Treat the bonus/loan issue separate from the call. File a police report on the threatening call and let dad find out that way. Sure, the dad probably went home and bitched to the family about no bonus, but that's on his personal time, and what is the crime? Dad didn't go online and disparage you, he went home and vented - something I'm sure everyone here has done... It might be in bad taste the way all of this went down, but I don't think it's a terminable offense. Tread lightly and contact an HR lawyer. Oh, and if you have terms on the loan and dad is behind on payments, then deduct only the delinquent payments...

 

[boatpi]

One tidbit that could be used is always safety and our warehouses obviously it’s a lot of heavy material and forklifts are used inside and outside
They all go through safety training and whether they use a forklift or not they’re all train by ocean structure and have the cards. Any violation at the very least gets a write up I could sign or not, but it goes in their package anything egregious they’re out the door. We have 13 cameras in our warehouse to document everything with a 30 day recording window always have if at all possible every inch of your property other than private areas like restrooms, covered by cameras.

 

[coolchange]

Is he a good employee? He probably has no idea the kid did that.
Stressful time of year. He obviously had to borrow money. Maybe he was planning on that Christmas bonus also. Maybe had to go home dejected and tell his family that whatever it was they were trying to do wasn’t gonna happen.

Not an excuse on the kid. Fuck the kid.

Younger me would’ve said fuck that guy. Older me kind of wants to see how it’ll play out.

As said bring the guy in. Don’t say a word just play the tape. See what his reaction is.

 

[NicPaus]

Thinking about it. If you do fire him. Like mentioned don't give a reason or even mention the call. Don't mention the loan. Just let him go with his 2 weeks. That way like CL mentioned there is no reason for wrongful termination.

 

[240Hallett]

I don’t get the scenario where this guy goes home to his family and bitches about not getting a check. At the time that he left nobody had gotten one so why would he be pissed that he didn’t?

Kid sounds like an asshole. Apple…tree…maybe?

 

[Jay Dub]

Can’t make this shit up if I tried. Today I took all the employees out for our annual Christmas lunch. I usually pull each one into my office before we go thank them personally and hand them their bonus check. Anyways didn’t have time to do that this year got side tracked with some other stuff a website meeting that went on longer than expected. We go to lunch eat and people start excusing themselves. I thought to myself fuck it let them go and everyone who stays I’ll give their checks to them today and thank them as a group. The ones who left I planned to give their checks to tomorrow since we are working a half day. I gave checks to 20 of the 25 people I had with us. I get home about 2 wife and kids were at her parents making cookies. I may have closed my eyes and took a little cat nap. I wake up to a voicemail from one of my guys kids who used to work for us also. The message was along the lines of how can you have a lunch and not give my dad a bonus etc. meanwhile I gave his dad a 500$ personal loan out of my pocket a month or so back. He’s paid me $100.00 back. He ends the message saying watch my back as he’s gonna “pull up” on me. Part of me wants to just shit can the kids dad now part of me doesn’t want him to suffer the actions of his kid even though obviously he was running his mouth to him. Part of me really doesn’t want to give him his bonus now either. What to do? What would you do?

In these situations, I try to remove the emotions. I would call the dad in and play the VM. Depending on his reactions, you will know what further action to take.

 

[lbhsbz]

I don’t get the scenario where this guy goes home to his family and bitches about not getting a check. At the time that he left nobody had gotten one so why would he be pissed that he didn’t?

Pretty simple. For the first 6 years I worked for my last employer we received a decent X-mas bonus, a bit more than a normal paycheck (at least to me). I used to use it pay one installment of my property taxes....I was on a pretty shoestring budget. Then one year instead of the boss handing out checks, HR came around handing out $25 gift cards to Ralphs with a "Merry Christmas". Fuck you and your giftcard. Every single person in the building was pissed, because we'd come to expect it, since it had happened every year. Has someone mentioned 3 or 6 months prior that "hey....doesn't look like there will be bonuses this year", that would have made things a lot easier on many of us and we wouldn't have been all pissed off.

 

[Deckin Around]

Whoa this thread took a turn. The RDP HR and legal teams are taking over. Let’s get back to burning him at the stake per RD’s direction.

 

[JFMFG]

Ya not sure after reading some reply’s maybe I need to take a step back and put myself in his shoes. This is a rough decision

 

[240Hallett]

Pretty simple. For the first 6 years I worked for my last employer we received a decent X-mas bonus, a bit more than a normal paycheck (at least to me). I used to use it pay one installment of my property taxes....I was on a pretty shoestring budget. Then one year instead of the boss handing out checks, HR came around handing out $25 gift cards to Ralphs with a "Merry Christmas". Fuck you and your giftcard. Every single person in the building was pissed, because we'd come to expect it, since it had happened every year. Has someone mentioned 3 or 6 months prior that "hey....doesn't look like there will be bonuses this year", that would have made things a lot easier on many of us and we wouldn't have been all pissed off.

I get that part. But he’s pissed about no check but HE is the one who left before they were handed out.

 

[lakemadness]

This is a good example of another reason California sucks. I’m glad I live and own businesses in an at will employment state. Could fire the guy for any reason or no reason.

 

[lbhsbz]

I get that part. But he’s pissed about no check but HE is the one who left before they were handed out.

Maybe he figured nobody was getting a check this year, since they weren't handed out at the normal time like in years past? I'd be pissed too. Those who are hard up for money make unreasonable choices sometimes.

I'm not sure where I'd go with this one....Probably why I don't have employees

 

[Ziggy]

I'd definitely be archiving that vm and very likely even contacting authorities about it.
With the amount of sympathy in youngsters I have seen for Luigi killing the health company CEO, a threat like this guys kid should be dealt with in a more legal manner.
.
Separately, deal with the dad's bonus, loan & employment as you see fit. He's either an asset or he's not for your business, you know best.

 

[JFMFG]

I'd definitely be archiving that vm and very likely even contacting authorities about it.
With the amount of sympathy in youngsters I have seen for Luigi killing the health company CEO, a threat like this guys kid should be dealt with in a more legal manner.
.
Separately, deal with the dad's bonus, loan & employment as you see fit. He's either an asset or he's not for your business, you know best.

What would filing a police report do there is no crime correct aside a threat?

 

[lbhsbz]

What would filing a police report do there is no crime correct aside a threat?

Logs the threat, which in itself is a crime.

 

[rivermobster]

This is a good example of another reason California sucks. I’m glad I live and own businesses in an at will employment state. Could fire the guy for any reason or no reason.

Ummmm...

California Is an "at will" state.

 

[D19]

Unfortunately, in this day and age, the event needs to be documented with HR and dad needs to sign it.

I would hand dad his check then wait till after Christmas then call him in the office to have a talk and play the voicemail for him. Explain that regardless of whatever caused his son to call in is completely unacceptable.

Have the documentation ready for him to sign, file it and leave it at that.

I would not have any communication with the son or reply to him in anyway.

 

[Ziggy]

What would filing a police report do there is no crime correct aside a threat?

I doubt anything would be done, just documenting it. I think it would just put a radar on him more than anything. Hopefully make him think twice about dumb shit in the future.

 

[Bullet28]

Ya not sure after reading some reply’s maybe I need to take a step back and put myself in his shoes. This is a rough decision

I can understand to a degree that this is a rough decision for you, I have faced a couple of things when I was a GM at a company but we had a solid HR department. If you read my post above it may not make much sense, I can’t tell you what to do only what I would do if I owned a company. I would seek out legal counsel, you seem torn about keeping your employee or letting him go?

 

[Icky]

I doubt anything would be done, just documenting it. I think it would just put a radar on him more than anything. Hopefully make him think twice about dumb shit in the future.

Or file a temporary restraining order and make his life a pain in the ass if he owns firearms.

 

[sonicss31]

Couple of things here, the bonus, his employment and the threat are separate issues. You obviously think enough of him to give him a personal loan which was separate from his condition of employment. I bet it was hard for him to even ask for the loan. Quite possibly he was expecting the Christmas bonus so that he could repay you back. It’s not unheard of that employees go home and bitch about work. It’s called venting. BTDT. Times a stressful out there as many are living paycheck to paycheck. Call him in the office and hand him the bonus and clear up any confusion about how the half day deal didn’t go as planned. As far as the VM only you can decide if he should hear it or whether you take it to a local precinct and let a desk sergeant give advice on moving forward legally. Times are different nowadays regarding threats of any kind. I’m not very tolerant of this kind of shit but as I’m now retired, I do think longer about how maybe sometimes I used to be quick to let emotions take control of the situation. Good luck.

 

[Wizard29]

What would filing a police report do there is no crime correct aside a threat?

At best, it would be a lewd/harassing phone call. Usually those have to be done repeatedly to be prosecuted.

This would not fall under criminal threats because the criteria for a criminal threat is that it has to be immediate and credible. The fact it was done over the phone does not make it immediate.

Having run a business in the past that sounds similar to yours, I'd suggest handling this as two separate issues.

What would you have done if the phone call (done by a different person than your employee) never happened? Probably nothing...you'd have give the guy his bonus at the next opportunity, and he would continue working there.

Yeah, there was a misunderstanding and the guy thought he didn't get a bonus. Where bonuses are usually given and someone doesn't get one, that's kind of a slap in the face and he went home to bitch about it. Anybody would.

I'd sit down with the guy and say, "Here's your bonus. It was ready the other day, but sorry I wasn't able to get it to you and some of the others before you left the lunch. Lots of shit going on."

After that is settled, then I'd tell him we have something else to talk about. Play the voice mail and ask him what's up with that. Maybe say that seems to be an indicator that he was pretty upset and obviously mentioned something about it at home. Ask him if he's really that unhappy at your company or if there is some other issue. Use it as an opportunity to find out what he and other employees might find unsatisfactory about their employment.

Let his reaction guide what you do from there. Chances are he will be remorseful in light of the fact the bonus situation was resolved and his employment can continue. If not though, this gives you additional perspective into the issues and allows you to suggest that he resign if he feels it is necessary. If he does, then at least your unemployment won't get dinged. If he doesn't and is still a dick, then fire him. Not because of the voice mail, but because you both agree that the employment arrangement is unsatisfactory and it was best to go your separate ways. If his attitude is middle of the road, then keep him on and monitor the situation (actually, monitor it no matter what if he stays on). I'm betting after you get the bonus thing settled, he'll be fine. That's how this all started.

After that, I'd let him know that his kid calling and making threats is unacceptable and if it happens again, the situation will be handled an entirely different way, including involving law enforcement as necessary. I'd bet that's enough for that guy to go home and slap his kid in the head.

You can't fire the guy for something the kid did though. Too much liability.