Speed UTV take 3

[RiverDave]

Is the speed suspension better than maverick R?
Give it a number
If speed is a 10, what is the R?
Is it a 10 rating by a speed owner or a R owner.

All I hear it's the best. But by a mile or 10 feet.
I only know a x3 with some shock therapy stuff and tuned to havasu.

Can Am has a announcement on the 19th. Something to do with the 2025 R

Ultimately they aren’t that different they just get their a different way.

The speed is a lot tougher though

 

[riverroyal]

Ultimately they aren’t that different they just get their a different way.

The speed is a lot tougher though

Tougher like hard to break?
I will say my x3 has some corner lean which is from getting the choppy shit as soft as possible

 

[RiverDave]

Tougher like hard to break?
I will say my x3 has some corner lean which is from getting the choppy shit as soft as possible

Lean is normal and good!

Yes the car is tougher all the way around.. I have hit shit in my car twice now that woulda ripped the front of my can am clean off and it did nothing to the car..

 

[rivrrts429]

Its a VW trailing arm design form what 1930?
I cannot believe you buy into this.
Yes it is good.
No it is not unique.
Those patents wouldn’t hold up for 5 seconds in court as anyone could easily show those designs have been around for decades…….

How many more wear items and potential bent/broken parts would you love to add to the suspension? The more the merrier perhaps?

If the Speed suspension won’t hold up in court why haven’t the other manufacturers challenged it but instead avoided it?

I get it… those are rhetorical questions…

 

[Deckin Around]

How many more wear items and potential bent/broken parts would you love to add to the suspension? The more the merrier perhaps?

If the Speed suspension won’t hold up in court why haven’t the other manufacturers challenged it but instead avoided it?

I get it… those are rhetorical questions…

Here is your example why it won't hold up in court. He calls Robby out and shares all the texts/emails/drawings/spec etc interactions with Robby and Todd. Examples of previous vehicles with designs by other people that Robby later patented. (Robby woods, Stewert Raceworks, Pro-formance, etc etc.

Starts to get into it after the intro after 3 min.
28 min starts a good explanation of how the patents app works and Robby avoids "disclosing prior art" which get's the patent but is easily proven wrong if challenged. It allows robby to bully and extort many smaller fabricators who have to pay per vehicle they have built and sign a NDA or go to court.

Robby Gordon and Todd Romano of Speed UTV Defame me, threaten me, and Try to Extort me...

 

[rivrrts429]

Here is your example why it won't hold up in court. He calls Robby out and shares all the texts/emails/drawings/spec etc interactions with Robby and Todd. Examples of previous vehicles with designs by other people that Robby later patented. (Robby woods, Stewert Raceworks, Pro-formance, etc etc.

Starts to get into it after the intro after 3 min.
28 min starts a good explanation of how the patents app works and Robby avoids "disclosing prior art" which get's the patent but is easily proven wrong if challenged. It allows robby to bully and extort many smaller fabricators who have to pay per vehicle they have built and sign a NDA or go to court.

Robby Gordon and Todd Romano of Speed UTV Defame me, threaten me, and Try to Extort me...

It’s only a positive for you and I if that argument holds up in court. These manufacturers have an open checkbook with their legal department yet nobody will challenge it.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I could care less as I own a RZR. I’m just calling a spade a spade as I see it and the list of upgrades I could do without being a radius arm car is endless.

Maybe Polaris and Can Am challenge it rather than the kooky work arounds they’ve done the last couple years. None of it is bad for the consumer.

 

[Boatymcboatface]

One thing the others don’t have to worry about is the axles. You can buy complete axles without having to deal with greasing or rebuilding them.
You could with the speed but double the price! And from what I’ve read they need WAY more attention.

 

[DLC]

Concept / principal is about the same on a IRS VW it’s been around from the late 60’s early 70’s

RG designed from scratch as he designed the frame and everything to go together

 

[Deckin Around]

It’s only a positive for you and I if that argument holds up in court. These manufacturers have an open checkbook with their legal department yet nobody will challenge it.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I could care less as I own a RZR. I’m just calling a spade a spade as I see it and the list of upgrades I could do without being a radius arm car is endless.

Maybe Polaris and Can Am challenge it rather than the kooky work arounds they’ve done the last couple years. None of it is bad for the consumer.

I assume RG won't go after the big dogs when he knows his patent is bs he won't spend the money. There are multiple parts on a Can-am and Polaris that are "violations" of the patents RG holds. Also some of the same design principles are patented with different names on different manufacture's patent submissions.
Fuck, RG owns the patent for "beadlock wheels." I don't think his team has sent a cease and desist letter to Polaris and Can-Am for their factory beadlocks like he tries with every wheel manufacturer.
I too have no dog in this fight other than I don't like Robby's business practices and my Speed car is years late and seemingly years away.

 

[rivermobster]

Suspension is all about geometry.

Did Speed patent its geometry? Uh no, that would probably never hold up in court.

Did he patent his design? Of course he did, so the aftermarket couldn't recreate his stuff!

The automobile has been around for decades. Every manufacturer uses a different design.

There ain't nuthin new under the sun kids. It's all just nuts and bolts.

 

[DLC]

Bead lock wheels have been around since 1980. RG was 11.

 

[RiverDave]

I assume RG won't go after the big dogs when he knows his patent is bs he won't spend the money. There are multiple parts on a Can-am and Polaris that are "violations" of the patents RG holds. Also some of the same design principles are patented with different names on different manufacture's patent submissions.
Fuck, RG owns the patent for "beadlock wheels." I don't think his team has sent a cease and desist letter to Polaris and Can-Am for their factory beadlocks like he tries with every wheel manufacturer.
I too have no dog in this fight other than I don't like Robby's business practices and my Speed car is years late and seemingly years away.

His bead locks are different than normal ones

 

[Fishd00d]

Uh no.. it’s not.

Actually it is haha. Same design thats been around forever.

 

[rivermobster]

His bead locks are different than normal ones

And that Why he patented it!

Doesn't he have his own tires for those wheels too?

 

[c_land]

Its a VW trailing arm design form what 1930?
I cannot believe you buy into this.
Yes it is good.
No it is not unique.
Those patents wouldn’t hold up for 5 seconds in court as anyone could easily show those designs have been around for decades…….

Right?

It is also hilarious to think that other MFGs are not aware of suspension tech that's been around forever.

 

[rivrrts429]

I assume RG won't go after the big dogs when he knows his patent is bs he won't spend the money. There are multiple parts on a Can-am and Polaris that are "violations" of the patents RG holds. Also some of the same design principles are patented with different names on different manufacture's patent submissions.
Fuck, RG owns the patent for "beadlock wheels." I don't think his team has sent a cease and desist letter to Polaris and Can-Am for their factory beadlocks like he tries with every wheel manufacturer.
I too have no dog in this fight other than I don't like Robby's business practices and my Speed car is years late and seemingly years away.

He went after Textron/Arctic Cat and won a $47M judgement. Wonder what ever came of that or if RG and Todd ever collected?

Racing against both Robby and Max in Mexico and seeing that car outperform cars in the San Felipe whoops was impressive. We ended up finishing second behind Max but in front of RG. Had the last 100 miles been whoops we wouldn’t have been able to keep up. The Speed car was that good.

I’d rather have suspension than horsepower. Suspension is the differentiator and makes you feel like you have a shot of nitrous. The Speed car suspension is far above the competitors. The drivetrain is suspect.

Both RG and Max have always been very complimentary and supportive of my team and one of the first ones to come thank us for the battle. Personally he’s been great but understand the perception from the business aspect. He definitely has an “edge” to him and he doesn’t appear to hide it in his videos.

 

[evantwheeler]

His bead locks are different than normal ones

Agreed.

 

[rivermobster]

He went after Textron/Arctic Cat and won a $47M judgement. Wonder what ever came of that or if RG and Todd ever collected?

Racing against both Robby and Max in Mexico and seeing that car outperform cars in the San Felipe whoops was impressive. We ended up finishing second behind Max but in front of RG. Had the last 100 miles been whoops we wouldn’t have been able to keep up. The Speed car was that good.

I’d rather have suspension than horsepower. Suspension is the differentiator and makes you feel like you have a shot of nitrous. The Speed car suspension is far above the competitors. The drivetrain is suspect.

Both RG and Max have always been very complimentary and supportive of my team and one of the first ones to come thank us for the battle. Personally he’s been great but understand the perception from the business aspect. He definitely has an “edge” to him and he doesn’t appear to hide it in his videos.

That verdict will be in appeals for decades.

Let's face it..

Robbie has brought his knowledge from the trophy truck world, and applied it to the SxS world.

And it's created a huge explosion!!!

The whole SxS deal is now Way ahead of where it would have been without him.

That's a good thing.

And in another five years or so, the Speed car may be a good thing!

Right now though...

Mr Gordon's FIRST priority should be to make all his customers whole. Anything other than that is pure bullshit from a business stand point.

 

[rivrrts429]

That verdict will be in appeals for decades.

Let's face it..

Robbie has brought his knowledge from the trophy truck world, and applied it to the SxS world.

And it's created a huge explosion!!!

The whole SxS deal is now Way ahead of where it would have been without him.

That's a good thing.

And in another five years or so, the Speed car may be a good thing!

Right now though...

Mr Gordon's FIRST priority should be to make all his customers whole. Anything other than that is pure bullshit from a business stand point.

You and I have talked about this and we agree. If the Speed car can continue to improve and evolve over the coming years it’ll be a good car. In the hard pack it’s already good. They need to keep focused on the customer care aspect and improve the drivetrain.

 

[Fishd00d]

Right?

It is also hilarious to think that other MFGs are not aware of suspension tech that's been around forever.

They dont want to use that design. Its not actually that "good". Like pointed out above the simple axle cost and hassle between them is crazy. Also the Speeds have eaten up a bunch of axles front and rear with that design so its no better, if anything its worse. Yes the car works good in the bumps because its wider and has more travel and has a lower CG. Its not the "better" design really.

 

[rivermobster]

They dont want to use that design. Its not actually that "good". Like pointed out above the simple axle cost and hassle between them is crazy. Also the Speeds have eaten up a bunch of axles front and rear with that design so its no better, if anything its worse. Yes the car works good in the bumps because its wider and has more travel and has a lower CG. Its not the "better" design really.

I'm taking a life insurance policy out on your azz...

 

[Bpracing1127]

They dont want to use that design. Its not actually that "good". Like pointed out above the simple axle cost and hassle between them is crazy. Also the Speeds have eaten up a bunch of axles front and rear with that design so its no better, if anything its worse. Yes the car works good in the bumps because its wider and has more travel and has a lower CG. Its not the "better" design really.

It’s also heavier than most cars so it’s got an advantage there.


Remind me again how races has speed won?

 

[RiverDave]

Posting this for my own reference

I apologize in advance if I missed anybody, so please add on to this list if I missed anything!
A lot of cars will be delivered to customers soon.
Here is my short list of Vendors and products for the cars!
Speed UTV Vendor list
*Some parts may void your factory warranty- check with SPEED UTV!

1. Speed UTV- Parts and accessories on their Website.
2. Morgan Motorsports-GPS Mounts, oil Coolers, best company to perform a new car “shakedown”
3. Push Turbo-Aftermarket Turbo, clutch spring kit, EmTron ECU upgrade with injectors
4. Factory UTV -rear Bumper
5. Hollander Motorsports - spare axle mount, light dust bracket, behind grill light mount, positive air flow kit for intercooler, rear camera mount, tie rod spare mount, tie rod ends, tool box and fluid carrier, KEY FAB. Holder, sway bar links, Diablo and El Jefe AUX tank kits, hardware upgrade kits, upgraded tailgate pins, wheel bearing grease tool
6. UTV Stereo
7. Full potential Suspension Tuning
8. MTS suspension tuning
9. Chupacabra Offroad- dash storage bag, seat risers, lighting options, rear view mirrors
10. Method race wheels
11. GG lighting, light mount brackets, dome lighting, pillar light brackets, more!
12. Vent Racing- front half window, Rear window for better flow to the intercooler, cooling fan upgrade
13. RPM- coming soon! Exhaust and more
14. Rokblokz- front and rear mud flaps
15. Octane Wraps
16. Gator wraps
17. Dek-x USA -custom interior boat style decking materials

 

[RiverDave]

By the way for those saying they aren’t delivering cars.. these are all at Anaheim waiting on pickup

 

[rivrrts429]

It’s also heavier than most cars so it’s got an advantage there.


Remind me again how races has speed won?

Max won the NORRA 500 in the Speed car. We were second and RG was third last year.

Racing is extremely difficult to podium. Many people race their entire lives and not see a podium. I’m not going to knock any manufacturer for falling short. It’s amazing to even finish.

The Speed car definitely is cutting its teeth and has a long ways to go but it did win one of the premiere races in North America. I won’t take that away from them.

 

[RiverDave]

It’s also heavier than most cars so it’s got an advantage there.


Remind me again how races has speed won?

Well if we are racing to raise your blood pressure I’d say they are world champs! lol

 

[rivermobster]

Nobody believes me when I say SxS's don't belong in the dunes!

John Paruleski on Instagram: "The chaos @utv_takeover ensues! 😳😳 so gnarly! 📹 @pricedesigns.pd #DUNEANDDESTROY"

14K likes, 96 comments - dune_and_destroy on June 29, 2024: "The chaos @utv_takeover ensues! 😳😳 so gnarly! 📹 @pricedesigns.pd #DUNEANDDESTROY".

www.instagram.com

 

[Boatymcboatface]

Max won the NORRA 500 in the Speed car. We were second and RG was third last year.

Racing is extremely difficult to podium. Many people race their entire lives and not see a podium. I’m not going to knock any manufacturer for falling short. It’s amazing to even finish.

The Speed car definitely is cutting its teeth and has a long ways to go but it did win one of the premiere races in North America. I won’t take that away from them.

Weren’t you in an older out dated Polaris car and not a newer pro r or turbo r?

 

[rivrrts429]

Weren’t you in an older out dated Polaris car and not a newer pro r or turbo r?

We were in an older Turbo R. We played the tortoise and the hare game and it worked. Same strategy we played when we won Baja.

It was actually our prerunner car lol

 

[Justsomeguy]

We were in an older Turbo R. We played the tortoise and the hare game and it worked. Same strategy we played when we won Baja.

It was actually our prerunner car lol

So a pro R didn't even podium? Interesting.

I've been meaning to mention anaheim. I live across from there. It's been very busy there lately.

 

[rivrrts429]

So a pro R didn't even podium? Interesting.

I've been meaning to mention anaheim. I live across from there. It's been very busy there lately.

Class win, not the overall. ProR’s race in the 2000cc class. Speeds and turbo UTV’s race in Pro UTV class.

 

[Boatymcboatface]

We were in an older Turbo R. We played the tortoise and the hare game and it worked. Same strategy we played when we won Baja.

It was actually our prerunner car lol

You mean turbo S?

 

[rivrrts429]

You mean turbo S?

Oops, yes I meant turbo S lol.

 

[Boatymcboatface]

Oops, yes I meant turbo S lol.

I still would love to see you post more info on that car in the off-road section! Still running mine completely stock except for spare parts, windshield, whips, light bar and cooler.

 

[EPL]

Oops, yes I meant turbo S lol.

I really like my Turbo S !

 

[rivrrts429]

I really like my Turbo S !

Best car for the money on the market.

 

[Bpracing1127]

Best car for the money on the market.

I guess good thing mine is dialed

 

[Boatymcboatface]

Best car for the money on the market.

That’s what I hear!

 

[stonehenge]

Best car for the money on the market.

Turbo S velocity was by far the best bang for the buck. For recreational use anyway.

 

[rivrrts429]

That’s what I hear! View attachment 1415319

That’s a nice car. Smiles for miles!

 

[rivrrts429]

Turbo S velocity was by far the best bang for the buck. For recreational use anyway.

Completely agree. If I was shopping today it’s what I’d be buying. It does everything well.

 

[Fishd00d]

Completely agree. If I was shopping today it’s what I’d be buying. It does everything well.

Until you drive a Stock Pro R and its better than a fully built Turbo S hahahaa.......

 

[rivrrts429]

Until you drive a Stock Pro R and its better than a fully built Turbo S hahahaa.......

I don’t disagree but it’s the class we love the most. Sort of the difference of wanting to race class 1 or trophy or 2wd truck.

 

[Bpracing1127]

No speed key reviews huh?

I saw where you need to add top end lube, change spark plugs and drain fuel if you plan to have it sit.

What a pain in the ass?

Also I am surprised no speeds in Vegas to Reno as the sxs field was stacked!!!

Also saw where guys are running diff coolers and still blowing up rear diffs on long hard runs.

As for the suspension. That doesn’t mean shit it you can’t drive more than 20 miles without a belt blowing or it overheating lol.

Sorry car is a POS and the company is even worse. Total garage shop company.

Speed should have made their own chassis bought a can am motor package and sold them as purposed built race cars and build 10 a year for 300k a unit.

 

[RiverDave]

No speed key reviews huh?

I saw where you need to add top end lube, change spark plugs and drain fuel if you plan to have it sit.

What a pain in the ass?

Also I am surprised no speeds in Vegas to Reno as the sxs field was stacked!!!

Also saw where guys are running diff coolers and still blowing up rear diffs on long hard runs.

As for the suspension. That doesn’t mean shit it you can’t drive more than 20 miles without a belt blowing or it overheating lol.

Sorry car is a POS and the company is even worse. Total garage shop company.

Speed should have made their own chassis bought a can am motor package and sold them as purposed built race cars and build 10 a year for 300k a unit.

It’s 115+ out everyday right now..

All you need to do is put e-85 in and go.. you don’t need to change plugs the ecu does the rest.

E85 isn’t a fuel you want sitting around for long periods. That has nothing to do with speed.

RD

 

[NIKAL]

No speed key reviews huh?

I saw where you need to add top end lube, change spark plugs and drain fuel if you plan to have it sit.

What a pain in the ass?

Also I am surprised no speeds in Vegas to Reno as the sxs field was stacked!!!

Also saw where guys are running diff coolers and still blowing up rear diffs on long hard runs.

As for the suspension. That doesn’t mean shit it you can’t drive more than 20 miles without a belt blowing or it overheating lol.

Sorry car is a POS and the company is even worse. Total garage shop company.

Speed should have made their own chassis bought a can am motor package and sold them as purposed built race cars and build 10 a year for 300k a unit.

Having a bad day? Just needed something to vent about & bash?

As far as the Speed key, yep top end lube, different spark plugs is the latest I’ve heard too? Interesting how the plugs are just now being told? As far as draining the E85, and not letting it sit, that’s pretty common as I’ve heard this in the past with other buggy & UTV guys. E85 absorbs moisture pretty quick. For me E85 is never something I’ve been interested in, just for the fact if the crappy milage you get from E85.

I have not seen anyone running a rear trans cooler. Who’s doing that, and how’s it plumbed? And I’ve not heard of guys blowing up rear diffs? Where did you read this? Boardmanville?

Speed CVT is definitely a huge issue, not sure they are blowing belts every 20 miles? But yes it’s definitely a problem. By biggest beef with this is all the fixes sound like they are coming at a cost to the consumer. Aftermarket seems to be farther along in the fix, but I’m told Speeds “working” on their own fixes, but I’m not sure if it’s going to be offered to all the customers as a update fix or if it’s going to be another accessory offered at a cost?

Do you think if Speed could have purchased Rotax engine packages, they wouldn’t have? A course they would have! You act like they had a shit ton of power plant options knocking on their door. If you knew the facts you would know they went to Yamaha at the very beginning. Yamaha would only offer 500 engines, and non Turbo’ed. Thats 130 hp, and that was not going to work. Then they reached out to Suzuki about the ZR1 as Greg Biffle was putting ZR1 in the Arctic Cats. Suzuki had already discontinued the ZR1 engine and was not willing to revive it for Speed. So like every other brand they had to build their own. Why would Speed UTV only want to build 10 cars a year? They are trying to be a mass production UTV company, not a race shop. I think they thought it was going to be way easier, and are learning a hard lesson. But why hate someone for trying? You should read up on Edgar Hetteen, his brother Allan & David Johnson. They started Polaris and failed the first time, and struggled several more until they made it. I’m sure you would have hated them too in the early years. If you want to deep dive in history, read about the start & history of Arctic Cat. Might surprise you.

 

[Bpracing1127]

Having a bad day? Just needed something to vent about & bash?

As far as the Speed key, yep top end lube, different spark plugs is the latest I’ve heard too? Interesting how the plugs are just now being told? As far as draining the E85, and not letting it sit, that’s pretty common as I’ve heard this in the past with other buggy & UTV guys. E85 absorbs moisture pretty quick. For me E85 is never something I’ve been interested in, just for the fact if the crappy milage you get from E85.

I have not seen anyone running a rear trans cooler. Who’s doing that, and how’s it plumbed? And I’ve not heard of guys blowing up rear diffs? Where did you read this? Boardmanville?

Speed CVT is definitely a huge issue, not sure they are blowing belts every 20 miles? But yes it’s definitely a problem. By biggest beef with this is all the fixes sound like they are coming at a cost to the consumer. Aftermarket seems to be farther along in the fix, but I’m told Speeds “working” on their own fixes, but I’m not sure if it’s going to be offered to all the customers as a update fix or if it’s going to be another accessory offered at a cost?

Do you think if Speed could have purchased Rotax engine packages, they wouldn’t have? A course they would have! You act like they had a shit ton of power plant options knocking on their door. If you knew the facts you would know they went to Yamaha at the very beginning. Yamaha would only offer 500 engines, and non Turbo’ed. Thats 130 hp, and that was not going to work. Then they reached out to Suzuki about the ZR1 as Greg Biffle was putting ZR1 in the Arctic Cats. Suzuki had already discontinued the ZR1 engine and was not willing to revive it for Speed. So like every other brand they had to build their own. Why would Speed UTV only want to build 10 cars a year? They are trying to be a mass production UTV company, not a race shop. I think they thought it was going to be way easier, and are learning a hard lesson. But why hate someone for trying? You should read up on Edgar Hetteen, his brother Allan & David Johnson. They started Polaris and failed the first time, and struggled several more until they made it. I’m sure you would have hated them too in the early years. If you want to deep dive in history, read about the start & history of Arctic Cat. Might surprise you.

If speed wants to be a mass producer then they need to do so. Hire the right people and stop being a garage shop.

In regards to other engines. That’s for the customer to bring to speed again we’re talking 10-30 cars a year here in that business model

Rear diffs saw on Facebook from owners. They removed the bed and added a smaller cooler with no so good results

And yes new plugs are needed for the E85 @RiverDave thats according to TR.

And yes I am having a bad day. Instead of bashing RDP I am bashing Speed

 

[NIKAL]

If speed wants to be a mass producer then they need to do so. Hire the right people and stop being a garage shop.

In regards to other engines. That’s for the customer to bring to speed again we’re talking 10-30 cars a year here in that business model

Rear diffs saw on Facebook from owners. They removed the bed and added a smaller cooler with no so good results

And yes new plugs are needed for the E85 @RiverDave thats according to TR.

And yes I am having a bad day. Instead of bashing RDP I am bashing Speed

I agree I think they need to hire or poach some people from other companies that have the experience in manufacturing, running an Automotive OEM company to run the day to day operations. Let the imagineering to Robby. Let Todd take a VP roll and bring in an experienced CEO. There is allot to be desired and I don’t disagree with you. But I’m not willing to go as far as bashing the person or business like you chose to as I know I could never in a million years pull off what they have accomplished to this point.

Are you sure the cooler you’re seeing is not the engine oil cooler? I know that’s been something a few have been trying. A trans cooler is going to be much more complicated as you will need to weld bungs to the transmission case, figure out how to pump the fluid out and back in without starving the transmission, and not introducing air into the system, and you will need an electric pump system. So are you sure what you saw was for a trans cooler, or maybe an aux oil cooler for the engine?

 

[Deckin Around]

it sure seems like if you have any problems, you better post them online before you take your car in. transmission metal chunks are normal, and secondary clutches cracking and exploding are only covered when you post online first

 

[SeanRitchie]

There are a few questions that need to be answered about those chunks on the trans magnet.

1. Has the driver been attempting to shift on the fly?

1a. Does the driver know and understand how dog-engagement gearboxes work? Or have any previous experience shifting them?

2. When shifting into gear at a stop with engine running, has there been any loud noises coming from the gearbox?

3. Have there been any clutching/belt issues?


If the drivers have no experience with shifting these types of gearboxes while underway, they will need to educate themselves on how to properly do so to avoid damage. I have had many of these conversations with average joes, as well as "professional" race drivers over the years that have has less than desirable trans service bills due to poor timed shifts.

If the gearbox is making noise when shifting into gear with engine running at a stop, the belt could be dragging and spinning the secondary/trans input shaft. This is not ideal and should be addressed.

I have seen other manufactures gearboxes get damaged from catastrophic clutch failures as well. This is not unique to any one brand, but is collateral damage when something goes wrong outside of the gearbox.