Dive boat fire

[TPC]

Word around the Rudder Room is the search was on the weekend so they could all draw 2X overtime.
Damfino, that's the bar room scuttlebutt and just that: Scuttlebutt.
It's an unfortunate accident. Hope we can all learn from it.
Big changes will be forthcoming. You can depend on that.

 

[4Waters]

They are planning on raising the boat today and hopefully they can recover the last body.

 

[stephenkatsea]

Today's NTSB report indicates there was no watchman.
1) If the Captain failed to appoint a night watchman he should face appropriate charges.
2) If the Captain did appoint a night watchman and that crewman went to sleep, that crewman should face appropriate charges.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...42e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=JXPSDZZDFEDNZNZ7BN2M

This $13 dollar item(s) from Amazon may have prevented the fire. But, there is no legal excuse for not having a night watchman.

 

[Kachina26]

Today's NTSB report indicates there was no watchman.
1) If the Captain failed to appoint a night watchman he should face appropriate charges.
2) If the Captain did appoint a night watchman and that crewman went to sleep, that crewman should face appropriate charges.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...42e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=JXPSDZZDFEDNZNZ7BN2M

This $13 dollar item(s) from Amazon may have prevented the fire. But, there is no legal excuse for not having a night watchman.

Just read that on Fox. Really an unexpected turn of events.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/californ...ep-when-deadly-fire-started-ntsb-report-finds

 

[RitcheyRch]

Was breaking news on KNX1070

Just read that on Fox. Really an unexpected turn of events.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/californ...ep-when-deadly-fire-started-ntsb-report-finds

 

[HCP3]

So sad. While I understand that everyone is grieving, that crew member who was assigned watch must be devastated.

 

[stephenkatsea]

So sad. While I understand that everyone is grieving, that crew member who was assigned watch must be devastated.

Did you hear someone was actually assigned the night watch, but they failed to stand it? I have not seen that reported as such.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Prelim findings are often misconstrued as final findings. I'll wait for the final report.

 

[buck35]

Did you hear someone was actually assigned the night watch, but they failed to stand it? I have not seen that reported as such.

If as speculated ,it was a battery explosion with a violent fire ensuing, could he have done much to change the outcome? I am not in any way familiar with these boats and asking because casting blame to the lowest paid grunt on the vessel really kind of sucks in mho...

 

[HCP3]

Did you hear someone was actually assigned the night watch, but they failed to stand it? I have not seen that reported as such.

No. I jumped the gun there. I ASSumed there was a crew member assigned, and that he/she may have survived. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions (I am not being sarcastic).

 

[4Waters]

Very sad

 

[cofooter]

View attachment 797692

Very sad

Indeed, not much left of that boat, RIP to all.

 

[Concierge]

This hits close to home. What a tragedy indeed and may the unfortunate rest in piece.

Never dove with this outfit but did just hear from my brother that his friend and co-worker was on this very boat. He was pretty shook and it was saddening to hear his recent memories turn into his last memories of the diver. Did my best to provide console through some storytelling of my own because, we’ll, that’s arguably the best part of a good dive trip but I’m not sure it helped.

This is one of those stories that’ll ripple through the dive community for a long time and comes with a lesson that nobody wants to learn this way.

How many other operations do you think have already double and even triple checked their emergency egress plans by now?

- Former underwater cat hearder
- SSI Master Diver

 

[Blackmagic94]

Today's NTSB report indicates there was no watchman.
1) If the Captain failed to appoint a night watchman he should face appropriate charges.
2) If the Captain did appoint a night watchman and that crewman went to sleep, that crewman should face appropriate charges.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...42e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=JXPSDZZDFEDNZNZ7BN2M

This $13 dollar item(s) from Amazon may have prevented the fire. But, there is no legal excuse for not having a night watchman.

So I was right

 

[Blackmagic94]

Uscg is saying to avoid phone chargers right now.

 

[Yellowboat]

Here is an old video of a damaged lipo being charged

 

[stephenkatsea]

If the source of the fire was the charging of the Lithium batteries perhaps that could have created a sudden Flash Over fire in the galley/salon area? There are likely FF inmates who could shed more light on the Flash Over phenomena.

 

[4Waters]

If the source of the fire was the charging of the Lithium batteries perhaps that could have created a sudden Flash Over fire in the galley/salon area? There are likely FF inmates who could shed more light on the Flash Over phenomena.

A flash over is when the flammable contents of an enclosed room reach ignition temperature and ignite simultaneously.

 

[4Waters]

Here is a flash over.

 

[yz450mm]

Here is a flash over.

Those white hats milling about out front should have read that smoke better, should have seen that coming.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[rrrr]

View attachment 797692

Very sad

The galley equipment is visible in the photo, along with the charred remains of the front and rear bulkheads. The location of the engines, hard against the berthing area, show why there was no escape route to the rear.

If the source of the fire was a LiPo battery explosion, it reinforces my belief that the staircase became quickly impassible, and that dense toxic smoke quickly filled the berthing area. The victims couldn't see anything because of the smoke, and I think unconsciousness came quickly before the flames engulfed the area. We can only hope that was so.

 

[t&y]

Here is a flash over.

Smoke is fuel in many cases. Perfect example of how that works.

 

[4Waters]

Those white hats milling about out front should have read that smoke better, should have seen that coming.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Agree

 

[Headless hula]

You guys have no idea how quick it goes.

Couldn't imagine being onboard. Difficult enough getting out of a house.

 

[4Waters]

Smoke is fuel in many cases. Perfect example of how that works.

Here is an example of smoke (actually gas, remember gas is flammable not solids or liquids) is flammable.

 

[BajaMike]

Here is a flash over.

Why can’t I see any hoses or water going onto that fire?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Here is an example of smoke (actually gas, remember gas is flammable not solids or liquids) is flammable.

Roofing kettles are the only thing I have had experience with in terms of smoke becoming fuel. There is a "industry standard" temp to hot mop...and that standard is above manufacturer guidelines. The smoke from the kettle had various tints for different temps. A greenish tint, and a slightly different sound to the howl of the burners...and all hell would take a new meaning. The smoke would "flash", and the flame would light of the asphalt in the kettle. If the equipment was clean and taken care of, drop the lid, and close the vents. Snuff it out. Scary thing to witness and feel.
It scared the hell out of me, and I had the option to bail out, I wasn't trapped by it.

 

[cakemoto]

The galley equipment is visible in the photo, along with the charred remains of the front and rear bulkheads. The location of the engines, hard against the berthing area, show why there was no escape route to the rear.

If the source of the fire was a LiPo battery explosion, it reinforces my belief that the staircase became quickly impassible, and that dense toxic smoke quickly filled the berthing area. The victims couldn't see anything because of the smoke, and I think unconsciousness came quickly before the flames engulfed the area. We can only hope that was so.

I think you guys are still confused on the different types of batteries in our phones and camera,drills,etc there is Lithium-ion batteries.which are pretty much Are way more safe compared to lithium polymer as you can see in the video above.

 

[Concierge]

So I was right

I agree w/ the legal negligence & the legal consequences regarding them not having "a required roaming night watch person" on duty. Why would an allegedly professionally run operation w/ a good reputation cut crucial corners like this? If it's to save $$, as business decisions often are, that is criminal. How could a professional captain (and/or the boat owners) allow this crucial safety breech of USCG regulations? It's his/her responsibility. Don't they have ethics to uphold?! It makes me wonder if they cut other corners. What warnings do the potentially explosive type of lithium batteries come with, regarding charging them? We've read about certain types of lithium cellphone batteries exploding; rare but it happens.

 

[Taboma]

I agree w/ the legal negligence & the legal consequences regarding them not having "a required roaming night watch person" on duty. Why would an allegedly professionally run operation w/ a good reputation cut crucial corners like this? If it's to save $$, as business decisions often are, that is criminal. How could a professional captain (and/or the boat owners) allow this crucial safety breech of USCG regulations? It's his/her responsibility. Don't they have ethics to uphold?! It makes me wonder if they cut other corners. What warnings do the potentially explosive type of lithium batteries come with, regarding charging them? We've read about certain types of lithium cellphone batteries exploding; rare but it happens.

As far as the "Warnings", it seems like there's several warnings, one in particular I recall is "Do not charge unattended"
The instructions which we've all become pretty much immune to, since everything we purchase has ten pages of "Warnings" and one page of actual useful information, are scary as hell. From the little I've read, it seems that Li Ion batteries have better built in protection, like thermal, overload etc.. Other than that, they are certainly dangerous.

Typical industry standard Li-Po charging warning instructions, just a short clip, it goes on for another page or so.

Typical Li-Ion charging warnings, again, just a snippet.

 

[rrrr]

Just because there wasn't a roving guard, it doesn't follow that the decision was an omission accepted by the company. The captain could have considered it unnecessary, and ordered it discontinued.

 

[LowRiver2]

Word around the Rudder Room is the search was on the weekend so they could all draw 2X overtime.
Damfino, that's the bar room scuttlebutt and just that: Scuttlebutt.
It's an unfortunate accident. Hope we can all learn from it.
Big changes will be forthcoming. You can depend on that.

Total hater BS. I have fellow Divers on that OP, they don't want to work for extra cash. Anyone that dives, or anyone that recovers waterborne evidence like I do knows how much tide charts, storms affect recovery efforts.
You delay due to conditions, not to fill your wallet.

 

[stephenkatsea]

Assignment of crew tasking is up to the Captain and no one else. Did he assign a patrolman that night? NTSB reported all the crew was asleep at the time of the fire. But, that doesn't mean a patrolman had not been previously designated by the Captain and the guy went to bed. Let's wait for the results of the investigation.

 

[Concierge]

Just because there wasn't a roving guard, it doesn't follow that the decision was an omission accepted by the company. The captain could have considered it unnecessary, and ordered it discontinued.

Front page story in many newspapers, "Boat was fire trap per experts, yet it passed inspections." Note my many previous posts.

Likely anything but be confined to a 7’ long x3’ wide 2’ tall bunk.

IMHO, the government does have some responsibility. The routing and means of emergency escape were approved and inspected by the CG prior to construction, during construction, at completion and at a minimum annually at the CG inspection period. The vessel's crew and owners cannot suddenly be found in violation on this matter due to this tragedy. Truth is it didn't work. But, it was not in violation. It does need to be modified. Assigning and maintaining a roaming patrol is a different possible issue.

Some of the boats I fish on have video monitoring of the salon/galley and deck aft of same. I'm up frequently during the night, sometimes there is a crewman in the salon/galley sometimes not. This sounds so sudden and catastrophic the crewman on watch might have been in the wheel house following regs.

Assignment of crew tasking is up to the Captain and no one else. Did he assign a patrolman that night? NTSB reported all the crew was asleep at the time of the fire. But, that doesn't mean a patrolman had not been previously designated by the Captain and the guy went to bed. Let's wait for the results of the investigation.

 

[Concierge]

Front page story in many newspapers, "Boat was fire trap per experts, yet it passed inspections." Note my many previous posts.[/QUOTE
This oxymoron makes no sense. I read that article too. It makes the USCG sound less than stellar.

 

[Concierge]

Honestly I just thought the word "grill" was a piss poor choice.

As for drug and alcohol testing, I believe it should be a requirement for any job that makes you responsible for the well being of others. Teachers not getting random testing is up there...my wife's a teacher, and she's for it. I've done heavy construction and been around heavy equipment.. damn right I want sober operators. You don't want to make the call, or get the call. Plain and simple.

 

[Concierge]

Exactly. I agree. Two commercial pilots I know got tested prior to getting on their planes. One was forced to retire early from United, after flying for them about 30 yrs., or loose certain retirement benefits. The other pilot was a heavy drinker & was caught at EYW, Key West Airport, smelling of alcohol before he was to captain a flight on the turboprop. He was w/ me the night before, but neglected to inform me he had a flight the next a.m. ! He was required to see a psychologist, etc. Every job I've had in Physical Therapy makes you sign a form that U agree to random drug & alcohol testing. I thought almost every corporation did that.
When I went thru flight attendant
training w/ Pan Am, they had staff in the bathrooms so no one could allegedly cheat on their urine drug test. A few from my training class were 86'd cuz they failed it. Truth Aquatics had a great reputation. Sadly, this will prob'ly ruin them. The complete investigation will take a long time & they'll be dealing w/ lawsuits, etc.

 

[Concierge]

Now if you would just convince my wife of that. Lol

Ha ha!

 

[Concierge]

Pray that this is true...

Victims of California dive boat fire appear to have died from smoke inhalation, authorities say

Stefanie Dazio
SANTA BARBARA, Calif.
The Associated Press
Published 3 hours agoUpdated September 6, 2019
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Dozens of people trapped on a scuba diving boat that caught fire off the Southern California coast appear to have died from smoke inhalation, not burns, authorities said Friday.

“The indicators are from the preliminary examination of the bodies that the victims died prior to being burned,” Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown said. “The burn damage to the victims was post-mortem.”

An old wooden boat & a fire: Could ANY escape hatch have helped save the people in bunks in smoke filled darkness?? Investigators said they had a hard time finding the light switch.
I worked for PanAm. On a commercial jet, they're required to have emergency lighting, both on floors & over ER exits, to quickly SEE escape exits thru smoke.
Why aren't boats escape hatch(es) required to be well lit, in case of an emergency? Some USCG safety regulations R outdated & too lax. An expert fire investigator said this boat was a "floating bomb," due to "outdated USCG safety regulations," & several safety issues, like no night watchman on duty, a maritime requirement for this vessel. No one mentioned if there were fire extinguishers in bunk area; only by the doors. There was no communication system throughout dive boat, except hand held radios? No built in radio in the bunk area, so captain can always communicate to that area? The one crew member in bunk area should've had a radio & alerted the captain. This is what baffles me. A crew person 2 decks above bunks, in wheelhouse, heard a noise below. This indicates there was no communication from bunk area to wheelhouse No& that wheelhouse crew did NOT hear a fire alarm. Why don't they have fire Dept. & USCG both inspecting commercial boats in order to pass safety certification? I'm realizing how flawed certain USCG regulations are, ie. outdated, & that passing inspection does not mean SAFE. Upgrades & standard requirements usually boils down to cost. Upgrading old boats to newer design specs can be exorbitantly $$. I am shocked that they were packed in like sardines, & the boats systems seem lacking adequate escape routes & communication systems for a major emergency.

 

[stephenkatsea]

The galley equipment is visible in the photo, along with the charred remains of the front and rear bulkheads. The location of the engines, hard against the berthing area, show why there was no escape route to the rear.

If the source of the fire was a LiPo battery explosion, it reinforces my belief that the staircase became quickly impassible, and that dense toxic smoke quickly filled the berthing area. The victims couldn't see anything because of the smoke, and I think unconsciousness came quickly before the flames engulfed the area. We can only hope that was so.

You may be looking at the p&s outboard fuel tanks. The engines, badly charred, are in board of the tanks and not against a bulkhead. Appears to be sufficient center line area for an emergency escape trunk from the berthing area passing into the forward engine room area then up to the main deck. The CVK also appears visible.

 

[Taboma]

You may be looking at the p&s outboard fuel tanks. The engines, badly charred, are in board of the tanks and not against a bulkhead. Appears to be sufficient center line area for an emergency escape trunk from the berthing area passing into the forward engine room area then up to the main deck. The CVK also appears visible. View attachment 799201

What's a CVK ?

 

[Concierge]

This is so sad! Is it common practice for people to be locked in sleeping quarters on a dive boat????

It was not locked. Dispatcher misunderstood why crew members couldn't get thru doors to bunks. It was due to extreme smoke & fire, not locked doors. Imagine a panicked crew member who woke up to a noise & is half awake shouting Mayday & telling what's happening. The person is talking fast & dispatch misunderstood at least 2 of their statements. That is not uncommon in an emergency when people are rushed, terrified & panicking while attempting to answer dispatches questions & trying to save lives under huge duress.

 

[rrrr]

You may be looking at the p&s outboard fuel tanks. The engines, badly charred, are in board of the tanks and not against a bulkhead. Appears to be sufficient center line area for an emergency escape trunk from the berthing area passing into the forward engine room area then up to the main deck. The CVK also appears visible. View attachment 799201

You're correct, of course. I didn't look carefully, just assumed the two large objects were diesels. Thanks for the post.

 

[stephenkatsea]

What's a CVK ?

Centerline Vertical Keel

 

[stephenkatsea]

I was surprised when I realized a large majority of the victims were female - 21 females and 13 males. Wouldn't have expected that.

 

[Concierge]

View attachment 793890
Thank you! I read that the captain retained an attorney.
I think the NTSB reporting the lack of a "required roaming night watchman" for this vessel, under maritime law, has the captain concerned. I have compassion for everyone involved, but this safety issue baffles me. They aren't allowed to sleep during "watch." A watchman is required whenever people are using bunk area, for this vessel, too the maritime law states. This is sad beyond comprehension. The captain is not allowed to override this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As far as the "Warnings", it seems like there's several warnings, one in particular I recall is "Do not charge unattended"
The instructions which we've all become pretty much immune to, since everything we purchase has ten pages of "Warnings" and one page of actual useful information, are scary as hell. From the little I've read, it seems that Li Ion batteries have better built in protection, like thermal, overload etc.. Other than that, they are certainly dangerous.

Typical industry standard Li-Po charging warning instructions, just a short clip, it goes on for another page or so.

View attachment 798765

Typical Li-Ion charging warnings, again, just a snippet.

View attachment 798766

 

[Concierge]

In spite of much experience and expense, otherwise survivable air carrier crashes, including takeoffs and landings, result in the deaths of many passengers and crew because of post incident fires and smoke. The 1983 lavatory fire on Air Canada Flight 797, a DC-9, resulted from inadequate emergency response from the flight attendants and pilots. When the plane finally landed 29 minutes later, 23 passengers still attempting to exit the aircraft were killed when the fuselage was breached by fire and an oxygen fed flashover occurred. There are many more examples.

Maybe galleys in boats like the Conception should be required to have dry chemical extinguishing systems located above cooking surfaces, like restaurants. Maybe that's already the law. I don't know.

But let's be realistic about this.

If you watch the Station nightclub fire video I posted above and look at the amount of deadly smoke generated in less than a minute, it illustrates what I believe made the loss of life inevitable on the Conception. Smoke detectors, which were installed and presumably functioning (we will never know differently), were of little value in notifying the passengers of the severity of the fire and that they had just seconds to escape.

You wouldn't immediately jump up from sleep in a curtained bunk and bolt towards the exit in an unfamiliar space rapidly filling with black smoke. Unfortunately, the first reaction is to grab clothing and look for flip flops and valuables like wallets and purses. That consumed precious seconds that allowed the fire to grow.

Passengers on the Conception were likely awakened by shrieking smoke alarms, shouts, the presence of smoke and flames blocking the only recognizable exit from the space, and the press of many bodies all attempting to get out at once. There's no doubt it was a chaotic, panic filled scene. .

Before the passengers could gather their bearings, thick smoke in a dark, unfamiliar space made it impossible to locate the exits, and its poisonous effects rendered the victims unconscious in a period spanning seconds, not minutes. Even before the lights failed, they were doomed.

The boat was constructed from fiberglass and fitted out with wood paneling and bunks. The seating areas and mattresses were upholstered with foam, covered by vinyl, and carpeted with synthetic fibers. This was a collection of flammable materials that produced huge amounts of toxic smoke and flashed over into a roaring fire when dining area windows shattered from the heat and fed the fire with oxygen.

None of us, with the possible exception of firefighters, can visualize the rapidity of how quickly this happened.

The sad fact is that no existing occupancy, including a dive or fishing boat, can be properly defended against all fire risks. They can only be mitigated, reduced to an acceptable level based upon previous experience and economic considerations. That's an inescapable fact. Economically modifying an older existing boat to one that will automatically fight and extinguish a large escalating fire fed with flammable materials is not possible. The cost to do so would far exceed the worth of the vessel and amount of money a small charter operation generates.

Given the number of sleeping passengers, the size of the space, architectural possibilities, and the manner in which the fire started and escalated, more exits almost certainly would not have prevented all loss of life. But we'll never know.

There are many kinds of human activities that are safely performed daily for years without a seemingly random confluence of events making them deadly. Commercial air travel is the most obvious example.

I am deeply distressed and saddened by the tragedy of the Conception. But I also realize that sometimes such events will happen, no matter what laws and regulations exist. This does not mean vigilance and care should be abandoned. It merely acknowledges human events are susceptible to such terrible tragedies.

The original dive boat the Truth ran aground on San Clemente Island on their way to San Nicolas. The Capt. fell asleep at the wheel.

I'm still waiting for my fishing trip on the Maverick.

View attachment 796548

This arrangement and method of emergency egress is by no means unique to the Conception. There are numerous CG Certified vessels all over the country with similar arrangements. Don't know what kind of liability will be placed on the owner of the Conception given the prior guidance and approval from the CG on this emergency hatch. There doesn't appear to be negligence on behalf of the owner on this portion of the tragedy. Starting to hear more about the charging of the passenger's Lithium Ion batteries at outlets in the galley. Believe that is not illegal. But, when those batteries should happen to blow it is rapid, violent and creates extreme heat. These are not simple cell phone batteries. In this case they could have been large batteries for the passenger's underwater lights and cameras. Certainly a potential cause of the violent fire.

 

[cofooter]

Whatever the outcome the captain and company are screwed along with 33 innocent people. Very Tragic

 

[stephenkatsea]

Capt could have possibly assigned a patrolman and that patrolman may have gone to sleep without any knowledge of the Capt. That does happen. At this point, I believe there has been no reported negligence by the owners.

 

[Concierge]

Capt could have possibly assigned a patrolman and that patrolman may have gone to sleep without any knowledge of the Capt. That does happen. At this point, I believe there has been no reported negligence by the owners.

Whatever the outcome the captain and company are screwed along with 33 innocent people. Very Tragic