Boating Accident-Posted on June 20th, 2017 at 10:05 AM

[Ziggy]

, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that Jet Ski's issue is real (if that is what happened to cause the accident).

Most of them (the PWC operators) are just fine, you come up on them and they continue to run in the direction that they are going and its predictable so you can make a decision about navigating around them and provided they continue to do what they are doing not an issue. There are however a certain number of them that appear to be completely unaware that there is anyone else on the lake - other than them and their vessel - many of them beeline directly at you (I suppose to wake jump) and when they are doing it it seems like they are almost trying to hit you -
I have had Jet Skis that were traveling dead straight as I was approaching them make hard turns directly in front of me - and seemingly never see me (or at least that's how it appeared to me) probably 20 or 30 times and like the Warden said "they probably had no idea about what they did" because they don't even look. I am over the top careful and run as far away from them as I can but even with that extra level of caution they are so nimble and so fast these days you can be a long way away from them and especially if you are running fast they can still end up right in front of you almost in the blink of an eye.

I have no solution and I don't think there is one. They have the right to use the lake, they are not going away, no license, skill set (or common sense) required to own one.


Ironic about this incident if the Jet Ski component is accurate - if you were going to try to test for some Big Speeds and you know the traffic patterns of this lake Monday or Tuesday Morning early is the time you would select as the lowest risk time to do it.... thats when they were out there, still a big problem..

We all point fingers at pwc's for erratic moves and turns which in turn makes us more cautious around them. I too give them as much berth as possible but so far this season, three times, it has been other boats that have cut directly in front of me. Point being, it isn't necessarily the vessel but simply an unaware operator.

The thing about PWC misconduct, is it ain't a regional or area deal. Wherever they exist they show the same lack of sense.

Something I've had happen numerous times is to be sitting on anchor in the back of a cove. Quiet day. Few others around. Sitting and relaxing with the wife. When out of seemingly nowhere a PWC enters the cove at speed and circles the cove as close to the bank as possible. Even passing between my boat and the bank which is way to damned close.

This has happened enough times to wonder if it's some damned ritual these clowns all have to do for some insane reason. Damned if I knw, but it is irritating as hell.

I've often felt some just think they are so cool doing their bullshit stunts, the whole world is waiting in great anticipation of seeing them acting out their big dick fantasies.:rolleyes

It's all about the operator, but something about the craft brings out the idiot gene too many possess.:skull

WAY back in my jet ski days one of our favorite things to do was follow the lake shore like a race course.
I did however respect occupied beaches/coves.

 

[rrrr]

I'm just thankful everyone is gonna be alright.

I agree completely. This is one of those times where a few inches made the difference between some recoverable injuries and a gut twisting outcome.

:thumbsup

 

[riverroyal]

I agree with that. Diverse opinion over some topics involving exotic performance boats, brands, certain individuals but I do not see a constant "culture of hate" of anything ultra high performance. I run a very fast larger Skater in the lake and on the River 2 to 3 days a week and have for a long long time along with many other Skaters I have run on this lake. I have no basis to authenticate or question the fact set about what happened to the boat and crash that is the subject of this thread, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that Jet Ski's issue is real (if that is what happened to cause the accident).

Most of them (the PWC operators) are just fine, you come up on them and they continue to run in the direction that they are going and its predictable so you can make a decision about navigating around them and provided they continue to do what they are doing not an issue. There are however a certain number of them that appear to be completely unaware that there is anyone else on the lake - other than them and their vessel - many of them beeline directly at you (I suppose to wake jump) and when they are doing it it seems like they are almost trying to hit you - and if you are running 100 + it initially pisses you off, then requires you to at least consider a directional change, sometimes abruptly and large Air Entrapment Catamarans DO NOT like to make rapid directional changes "aired out and at speed" abruptly, regardless of brand - in fact if you have to put full rotation on the wheel at speed (and you don't have to be running 170 MPH to be aired out) your asking to crash, or at least hook. I have had Jet Skis that were traveling dead straight as I was approaching them make hard turns directly in front of me - and seemingly never see me (or at least that's how it appeared to me) probably 20 or 30 times and like the Warden said "they probably had no idea about what they did" because they don't even look. I am over the top careful and run as far away from them as I can but even with that extra level of caution they are so nimble and so fast these days you can be a long way away from them and especially if you are running fast they can still end up right in front of you almost in the blink of an eye.

I have no solution and I don't think there is one. They have the right to use the lake, they are not going away, no license, skill set (or common sense) required to own one.

I agree with Boat Cop on this one... If you have a very fast boat or even a semi-fast boat Dial it back on weekends, Dial it way way back on on Holiday weekends if you even go out. If you think you need to give the PWC's a wide margin of error make it even wider - assume that 100% of them are going to make a mistake that puts you in a bad position 100% of the time and act accordingly.

Ironic about this incident if the Jet Ski component is accurate - if you were going to try to test for some Big Speeds and you know the traffic patterns of this lake Monday or Tuesday Morning early is the time you would select as the lowest risk time to do it.... thats when they were out there, still a big problem..

There is a solution.
I've posted this before, probably more than once
It's education and operator certifications on personnel watercraft. 20 years ago I worked with sea doo, sd police and life guards to try and push this.
I made speeches, wrote stuff , gave free lessons and tried to get the manufactures to get on board. At the time my life and some income was racing pwc's.
It was dying due to do accidents and costs. The industry died, but only for a decade. It's now back bigger than ever, still no education or lesson on operation. Just sell it and good luck.
Not everyone has common sense. They need to be told basics. Like look at your surroundings, 360, not just where the handlebars are pointed. Unfortunately this accident could be a great example.
There are boaters that are the same. But this is boating site and not a pwc site, so on here we are all perfect.
Until there is a step up from the manufactures things won't change. It's been 35 years and nothing has changed with jet skies. Except they are faster and heavier.

Never assume a pwc will hold a line or get out of your way. ALWAYS have a plan approaching them.
I've logged more hours on pwc than everyone here combined. No exaggeration.
If you own one and are a great safe operator there's a good chance you also own a boat. 99% of them have never driven a boat, no clue they need to pay better attention and yield. Not the law, but common sense

 

[Joker]

There is a solution.
I've posted this before, probably more than once
It's education and operator certifications on personnel watercraft. 20 years ago I worked with sea doo, sd police and life guards to try and push this.
I made speeches, wrote stuff , gave free lessons and tried to get the manufactures to get on board. At the time my life and some income was racing pwc's.
It was dying due to do accidents and costs. The industry died, but only for a decade. It's now back bigger than ever, still no education or lesson on operation. Just sell it and good luck.
Not everyone has common sense. They need to be told basics. Like look at your surroundings, 360, not just where the handlebars are pointed. Unfortunately this accident could be a great example.
There are boaters that are the same. But this is boating site and not a pwc site, so on here we are all perfect.
Until there is a step up from the manufactures things won't change. It's been 35 years and nothing has changed with jet skies. Except they are faster and heavier.

Never assume a pwc will hold a line or get out of your way. ALWAYS have a plan approaching them.
I've logged more hours on pwc than everyone here combined. No exaggeration.
If you own one and are a great safe operator there's a good chance you also own a boat. 99% of them have never driven a boat, no clue they need to pay better attention and yield. Not the law, but common sense

Bullhead implemented a law that required renters to watch a safety video and sign off that they watched it. This past Friday, a 16 year old from Missouri rented one and crashed into another PWC killing the 18 year old. I'm not sure this is the answer but it may help.

 

[riverroyal]

Bullhead implemented a law that required renters to watch a safety video and sign off that they watched it. This past Friday, a 16 year old from Missouri rented one and crashed into another PWC killing the 18 year old. I'm not sure this is the answer but it may help.

It won't stop all incidents, nothing will. But anything is better than nothing.
There's actually some human science behind why pwc operators are so erratic.
Not sure my cell can handle it if I start!

 

[rrrr]

I've been coming out every winter since 2007. I see more performance oriented boats on the water in 30 minutes than I see an entire year on Texas lakes. Period. I'm not saying the whole town is speed freaks but there are a lot of hot rod cars, boats, and off road vehicles. Way more than in DFW of Texas.

Eliminator opened a location in Dallas around 2006. Even though the economy was pretty juiced back then, they couldn't make a go of it.

I think most of the guys running big boats and big power have a camaraderie that joins them. It seems Havasu's $150K plus boat owners all know each other, and that very visible group also attracts others to the group.

For whatever reason, that social attraction hasn't worked at Lake Lewisville (largest North Texas lake). There was an active group of owners at Lake Texoma in the early 2000s, but the fatal poker run incident made it wither and die.

We certainly don't have the boat manufacturer base here, and the used performance boat fleet is miniscule.

I agree that the performance boating fleet in Havasu contributes to the overall economic picture there. But claiming that a speed limit would drastically and permanently alter the economic health of the region is not accurate IMO.

Some of the members who make these statements have narrowly focused their attention to the performance boats. Sure, they attract attention. They also give the immediate impression that the owners are financially secure and that they have no problem peeling hundys everywhere they go.

But at the end of the day, what's the delta between their spending that directly affects Havasu and a guy in a 22' pontoon boat if they both have six people aboard? About $800, and all of it fuel.

If there are sixty of these boats on the lake any given weekend, that's less than $50,000. Ten summer weekends brings in half a million dollars. If they left, that's hardly enough to wreck the Havasu economy.

Now several people will point out I missed this or that, and explain why my numbers are wrong and that I'm full of shit. But the purpose in an exercise like this isn't to produce a comprehensive economic survey. It's meant to throw out a plausible number in a range that allows the forum members to push and shape them.

It's meant to produce a ballpark number that allows us to answer "What would be the affect of a speed limit on Lake Havasu?" Would it destroy the lake and recreation value of the area, or would it morph it into something different but viable?

That's much more effective than making an unqualified statement that says the limit would forever change Lake Havasu and the surrounding area into an economic backwater.
.

 

[BeerMaker]

Seems they all went to BMW drivers training

Ouch lol

 

[rrrr]

I must have missed something here. People are saying slow down and associating speed with the boat because it's a Skater. Didn't I read they were going 80-100 mph? (Which is literally like a 1/4 throttle for this boat). Don't jet skis come box stock running 75+ now?

Perception is a funny thing

Perception is indeed a funny thing. You have come to perceive that a professionally rigged twin engine catamaran such as a DCB or Skater, piloted by an experienced driver, is fully capable of being operated safely and prudently at speeds around 100 MPH.

I completely agree with your assessment. But it's fraught with conditional aspects that can radically alter the perceptions and the reality. There's weather, water conditions, and lighting. The other obvious factors that might change the situation from safe to unsafe are boat traffic and speed. As we all know, these two are inextricably interrelated.

When faced by increasing traffic on an otherwise unremarkable day, an experienced operator will almost automatically react by examining his speed and position and the speed and position of other boats. If he sees a potential conflict, he can change his course, slow down, speed up, or even stop.

From intuition and hours of experience, he can plot the course of multiple boats in his immediate area, determine if they represent a threat to his vessel, and alter his course and speed. He knows what speed his boat is traveling at, can make the conversion from MPH to feet per second, and accurately estimate how long it will be before must commit to diverting his path.

But we all know this knowledge and skill, the dedication to safety, and the concern for himself and others can be thrown out the window in a second by a rogue jet ski operator or careless boater.

Prudence requires that we stay vigilant, and use the only effective tool we have to mitigate the actions of the uninformed and stupid while traveling in congested areas.

Slow down.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Let me fix this for you.

If you are too rich with too fast and/or too big of a boat and are an asshole
If you have a PWC and are an asshole
If you have a jet boat and are an asshole
If you have a wakeboard boat and are an asshole
If you rent a boat and are an asshole

That about covers everyone that gets hated on here

The "and an asshole" clause is the key to life

 

[Ziggy]

Ouch lol

I was referencing another thread with this in it😁

The "and an asshole" clause is the key to life

 

[BeerMaker]

I was referencing another thread with this in it😁

View attachment 569128

It's all good. I'm used to it. 😁😂

 

[Ziggy]

It's all good. I'm used to it. 😁😂

Trust me, I know. Lived through the YUPPIE era.[emoji3]

 

[New to boating]

There is a solution.
I've posted this before, probably more than once
It's education and operator certifications on personnel watercraft. 20 years ago I worked with sea doo, sd police and life guards to try and push this.
I made speeches, wrote stuff , gave free lessons and tried to get the manufactures to get on board. At the time my life and some income was racing pwc's.
It was dying due to do accidents and costs. The industry died, but only for a decade. It's now back bigger than ever, still no education or lesson on operation. Just sell it and good luck.
Not everyone has common sense. They need to be told basics. Like look at your surroundings, 360, not just where the handlebars are pointed. Unfortunately this accident could be a great example.
There are boaters that are the same. But this is boating site and not a pwc site, so on here we are all perfect.
Until there is a step up from the manufactures things won't change. It's been 35 years and nothing has changed with jet skies. Except they are faster and heavier.

Never assume a pwc will hold a line or get out of your way. ALWAYS have a plan approaching them.
I've logged more hours on pwc than everyone here combined. No exaggeration.
If you own one and are a great safe operator there's a good chance you also own a boat. 99% of them have never driven a boat, no clue they need to pay better attention and yield. Not the law, but common sense

I believe you....... but this solution only works if you have a way to create "buy in" from present owners who operate in an unsafe manner, or have no clue what a "safe manner" is. How do you do that when they already own the watercraft and have no "requirement" to learn anything?

 

[Ziggy]

I believe you....... but this solution only works if you have a way to create "buy in" from present owners who operate in an unsafe manner, or have no clue what a "safe manner" is. How do you do that when they already own the watercraft and have no "requirement" to learn anything?

Registration renewal would need proof of training course completion.

 

[riverroyal]

Registration renewal would need proof of training course completion.

That's a good one zig

 

[Ziggy]

That's a good one zig

Well, how else would they hit the current ownership? Oh, probably just some sort of fee, huh.
I like the mandatory training idea though.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Eliminator opened a location in Dallas around 2006. Even though the economy was pretty juiced back then, they couldn't make a go of it.

I think most of the guys running big boats and big power have a camaraderie that joins them. It seems Havasu's $150K plus boat owners all know each other, and that very visible group also attracts others to the group.

For whatever reason, that social attraction hasn't worked at Lake Lewisville (largest North Texas lake). There was an active group of owners at Lake Texoma in the early 2000s, but the fatal poker run incident made it wither and die.

We certainly don't have the boat manufacturer base here, and the used performance boat fleet is miniscule.

I agree that the performance boating fleet in Havasu contributes to the overall economic picture there. But claiming that a speed limit would drastically and permanently alter the economic health of the region is not accurate IMO.

Some of the members who make these statements have narrowly focused their attention to the performance boats. Sure, they attract attention. They also give the immediate impression that the owners are financially secure and that they have no problem peeling hundys everywhere they go.

But at the end of the day, what's the delta between their spending that directly affects Havasu and a guy in a 22' pontoon boat if they both have six people aboard? About $800, and all of it fuel.

If there are sixty of these boats on the lake any given weekend, that's less than $50,000. Ten summer weekends brings in half a million dollars. If they left, that's hardly enough to wreck the Havasu economy.

Now several people will point out I missed this or that, and explain why my numbers are wrong and that I'm full of shit. But the purpose in an exercise like this isn't to produce a comprehensive economic survey. It's meant to throw out a plausible number in a range that allows the forum members to push and shape them.

It's meant to produce a ballpark number that allows us to answer "What would be the affect of a speed limit on Lake Havasu?" Would it destroy the lake and recreation value of the area, or would it morph it into something different but viable?

That's much more effective than making an unqualified statement that says the limit would forever change Lake Havasu and the surrounding area into an economic backwater.
.

I disagree

There is a shit ton of "average joe" people who spend their hard earned $$ trailering their average boat to Havasu, to enjoy it in an unrestricted atmosphere. I know I did, and still do. Putting a speed limit on that lake will kill the local economy, it would loose its appeal for a ton of people.

There are 3 lakes around the corner from me that I can go to on any given Sunday and go 35mph. I make the 300 mile drive to Havasu instead

It's not just the baller performance boat guys that you would lose. It would change the whole dynamic of that lake and I think it would really suffer

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I disagree

There is a shit ton of "average joe" people who spend their hard earned $$ trailering their average boat to Havasu, to enjoy it in an unrestricted atmosphere. I know I did, and still do. Putting a speed limit on that lake will kill the local economy, it would loose its appeal for a ton of people.

There are 3 lakes around the corner from me that I can go to on any given Sunday and go 35mph. I make the 300 mile drive to Havasu instead

It's not just the baller performance boat guys that you would lose. It would change the whole dynamic of that lake and I think it would really suffer

I agree. If they put up a speed limit they are not going to make it 70 or 80, they would make it pretty low, and on a lake that big it is impossible to police. 95% or more of the boats are doing between 40 and 70 anyway on a given weekend.

In the end this is a discussion about a dead end topic, because it is not that big of an issue. Occasionally people die or get injured in boating accidents, and few are due to pure speed.

 

[spectra3279]

One thing I have noticed on this site though......is the high performance boater seems to be disliked. IMO

Only if they have dcbs[emoji12]

 

[Dirtbag]

I think we can all agree that slowing down when you see another craft will certainly reduce accidents. But to what degree? If we had a 5 MPH speed limit we'd reduce most accidents (there would still be some knuckleheads managing to crash into something).

Here is a very common scenario that I have encountered numerous times as I'm sure other have:

I'm cruising up the river at around 50 MPH, sometimes in narrower areas. Because I have a bigger boat (32') with twins I get the PWC's buzzing around like gnats. They start when they see me coming by and charge at the stern so they can jump the wake. I've seen them up ahead of me and turn around to race towards me so they can quickly turn and wake jump. They will also stop and wait for me to go by so they can race after me and wake jump.

Many times, after they tire of wake jumping they will try to race ahead of me and suddenly cross my path. I have no idea why they want to do this but I have had to take evasive action before.

What is the appropriate coarse of action? If I slow down it just makes them hang around longer. What I usually do is just go full throttle to try to get away from them as my boats is generally faster than they can go.

I have also seen them shoot out from shore or coves and I will generally slow down or at least have my hand on the throttles ready to back off if I can see that they are not looking my way.

I don't what it is about PWCs that make the drivers so brain dead. I will tell you this, many years ago we had a SeaDoo 3 seater. My ex was driving and I was riding "bitch" on the back. We were following a friend in his small runabout boat across the lake. I was not looking ahead but was look back and to the sides until I decided to take a peek around my ex wife's head. Just as I did I saw my buddy had stopped his boat and my wife was headed straight to his stern. I yelled and fortunately, she snapped the bars to the right and didn't let go of the throttle. We did a 180 and the jet of the PWC smacked the outdrive of the boat and I managed to hold on.

After some severe yelling on my part from almost having us all killed, I asked her WTF was she looking at and why she didn't see the boat stopped? She replied that she was looking at the water directly ahead of the PWC and it had put her in a trance! WTF?!? Needless to say, she never drove the thing again.

Anyway, I wonder if that happens to other riders as well? I know a lot of car drivers just look at the bumper of the car in front of them instead of farther down the road. That's why they get into rear-enders because when the car stops they are not prepared. Maybe PWC riders just do the same.

So again, what is the best method of dealing with these things? I will continue to just try to outrun them and get as far away from them as I can. I have also been thinking about mounting a set of train horns on the boat to wake them up.

The correct course of action is to wave them over to the boat casually wait till they get right next to the boat and then slap the everliving shit out of them

 

[rrrr]

I disagree

There is a shit ton of "average joe" people who spend their hard earned $$ trailering their average boat to Havasu, to enjoy it in an unrestricted atmosphere. I know I did, and still do. Putting a speed limit on that lake will kill the local economy, it would loose its appeal for a ton of people.

There are 3 lakes around the corner from me that I can go to on any given Sunday and go 35mph. I make the 300 mile drive to Havasu instead

It's not just the baller performance boat guys that you would lose. It would change the whole dynamic of that lake and I think it would really suffer

Hold on here. A speed limit and a speed limit of 35 MPH are two completely different things, and certainly not what I was talking about.

You missed my entire point. I don't want someone to agree or disagree with me. I was asking what the effect would be if it was applied to a narrow subset of boaters, and I asked how big that subset is. No where did I say "There should be a speed limit on Havasu".

How many boats on Havasu can go over 100 MPH? I would really like an estimate.

I should make perfectly clear that my admonition to slow down applies when traffic and good sense require it. My statements above should in no way be construed to mean I am saying the guys that were involved in the accident should have been more careful or should have been going slower.

Both of them have more boating experience than I will ever have, and they are both serious and careful boaters by all accounts. In no way am I criticizing them or their actions. Period.

 

[lineman's holiday]

The correct course of action is to wave them over to the boat casually wait till they get right next to the boat and then slap the everliving shit out of them

"and the slap em" funny shiat there, but simple logic for me, is to stay in the middle of the lake - definately not run the shoreline or close for this very reason & hitting possibly my lower unit. both can be very costly. honestly, if i had to make a split second decision of to avoid a collision or pitch my riders- i never want to know.

" stay outa the bite" is my practice.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Hold on here. A speed limit and a speed limit of 35 MPH are two completely different things, and certainly not what I was talking about.

You missed my entire point. I don't want someone to agree or disagree with me. I was asking what the effect would be if it was applied to a narrow subset of boaters, and I asked how big that subset is. No where did I say "There should be a speed limit on Havasu".

How many boats on Havasu can go over 100 MPH? I would really like an estimate.

I should make perfectly clear that my admonition to slow down applies when traffic and good sense require it. My statements above should in no way be construed to mean I am saying the guys that were involved in the accident should have been more careful or should have been going slower.

Both of them have more boating experience than I will ever have, and they are both serious and careful boaters by all accounts. In no way am I criticizing them or their actions. Period.

95+% of boats are going between 40 and 70, so what speed limit would you suggest? No one is going to put in a 90 MPH speed limit, so what 60 MPH then? Who is supposed to police that? If you have a speed limit, 4-5 events that bring a ton of money into the town are gone for sure.

What accidents does that even prevent? Accidents simply happen sometimes. If you 100% don't want to be in a boating incident, don't go boating. We don't need to legislate around every incident that happens.

If a person jumps into the street front of my car and I swerve to avoid the person and hit a tree and wreck my car, it is my fault my car is wrecked. The same thing applies here. Maybe the person was doing something stupid, and shouldn't have jumped in the street in the first place, but shit happens, we move on. May you the person gets a jaywalking ticket, I get my car fixed. We don't put a speed bump in the middle of the road, or lower the speed limit in that area because of 1 accident.

 

[rrrr]

Oh fer fuck's sake. I DIDN'T SAY there should be a speed limit. Not one thing in your post has anything to do with what I originally said.

Before500r did the same thing. He quoted my post then went off in some other direction.

THIS is what I said:

You missed my entire point. I don't want someone to agree or disagree with me. I was asking what the effect would be if it was applied to a narrow subset of boaters, and I asked how big that subset is. No where did I say "There should be a speed limit on Havasu".

If you can't read what I posted and respond to the questions don't bother answering.

 

[RiverDave]

Oh fer fuck's sake. I DIDN'T SAY there should be a speed limit. Not one thing in your post has anything to do with what I originally said.

Before500r did the same thing. He quoted my post then went off in some other direction.

THIS is what I said:



If you can't read what I posted and respond to the questions don't bother answering.

I can read it just fine.. and it sounds like you want to have an intelligent conversation with debatable numbers and arguments on both sides.. Basically a free exchange of ideas / healthy conversation / and theorizing outcomes.. It's pretty much the point of a forum.

That all said, I'll say it again.. "Perception is a funny thing" and you can already see how people have "perceived" the text.. With all that's going on right now (check your pm's) maybe we can have this healthy debate and question and answer session another time?

RD

 

[Ouderkirk]

The boat to the starboard has the right of way I thought and I don't think speed is a determining factor in that case. That being said the vessel overtaking the slower vessel is responsible if they are traveling the same direction. We don't know the speed of the Skater. It could have happened at 50mph where those types of boats are more prone to roll and not spin out.

Boat being overtaken has the right of way in either case.


Hope everyone comes out OK.

 

[New to boating]

Boat being overtaken has the right of way in either case.


Hope everyone comes out OK.

The boat to the starboard has the right of way I thought and I don't think speed is a determining factor in that case. That being said the vessel overtaking the slower vessel is responsible if they are traveling the same direction. We don't know the speed of the Skater. It could have happened at 50mph where those types of boats are more prone to roll and not spin out.



I can turn my 36 Skater so hard at 85 MPH it will throw you out of the boat -IF I have time to set up for it, you just have to know how to do it and have the experience to know how to set the boat for it. At 140 its subtle adjustments and the boat reacts "in arrears", at 160 you are "aiming" the thing not really driving it with almost no boat in the water. Look at aerial footage of a large air entrapment catamaran running 160, 170 180 for a prolonged period of time - look at the residual wake tack in the water - they don't go straight and if you are holding the wheel dead straight they still don't go straight - they wander and "hunt"

I do not agree that these boats are more prone to rolling at slow speeds - my experience (Actual Offshore racing for a decade and a half at the professional level and thousands hours of over 100 MPH operation in large fast Skaters) is that slow speed roll overs in air entrapment catamarans (Skaters or otherwise) first start with "over driving" the boat (like a car) into a turn (and not having the seat of the pants experience to know when the boat is "talking to you"), which causes the boat to first slide, then hook that turns into a roll over - and that's if your not taking some evasive action, that's simply operator error.

But none of that has anything to do with the matter at hand. Someone said that Brad Stewart indicates that a Jet Ski came directly into their path at speed --- don't know what speed but I suspect it was not 50 MPH but even it it was, assuming the Jet Ski issue is true all bets are off when that happens and operator experience has ZERO significance because the operator is now being forced to do "something immediately" that he DOES NOT want to do, has not practiced doing and that the boat IS NOT DESIGNED to do....

I see a lot of comments about "the vessel being overtaken has the right of way" and a lot of other quotes that look like what is written in an accident report.... and I am sure that is all very nice technically/legally correct information for the accident investigator, judge and jury to consider - but when you are out there actually in the middle of it and reacting to what is happening in an instant NO ONE thinks about that, they make an instant decision about how to manage though the immediate "crisis at hand"

No one pulls out a rulebook and reads it before they react.....

 

[RodnJen]

"and the slap em" funny shiat there, but simple logic for me, is to stay in the middle of the lake - definately not run the shoreline or close for this very reason & hitting possibly my lower unit. both can be very costly. honestly, if i had to make a split second decision of to avoid a collision or pitch my riders- i never want to know.

" stay outa the bite" is my practice.

This. ^

See my post at bottom of page 16.

 

[Ouderkirk]

The boat to the starboard has the right of way I thought and I don't think speed is a determining factor in that case. That being said the vessel overtaking the slower vessel is responsible if they are traveling the same direction. We don't know the speed of the Skater. It could have happened at 50mph where those types of boats are more prone to roll and not spin out.

Bad deal for sure...and we haven't heard what exactly the circumstances were. The other choice is they were coming at each other, and they both turned the same direction and the boat operator reacted to avoid a head on collision.

I've not spent much time above 120MPH in a boat, and almost zero time (a few hours) in an air entrapment hull. Sort of the stratoshpere to me.

I do worry that these sorts of disasters tend to bring new laws into play that severely restrict everybody on the theory that "something must be done to stop....<insert topic here>.

 

[Old Texan]

Registration renewal would need proof of training course completion.

In TX, a person born after a certain date, has to provide proof of taking a one time hunter safety class to get a hunting license. Date was established to grandfather in older persons.

The same deal should be done with all watercraft and offroad vehicles for that matter. Safety has to start someplace.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Hold on here. A speed limit and a speed limit of 35 MPH are two completely different things, and certainly not what I was talking about.

You missed my entire point. I don't want someone to agree or disagree with me. I was asking what the effect would be if it was applied to a narrow subset of boaters, and I asked how big that subset is. No where did I say "There should be a speed limit on Havasu".

How many boats on Havasu can go over 100 MPH? I would really like an estimate.

I should make perfectly clear that my admonition to slow down applies when traffic and good sense require it. My statements above should in no way be construed to mean I am saying the guys that were involved in the accident should have been more careful or should have been going slower.

Both of them have more boating experience than I will ever have, and they are both serious and careful boaters by all accounts. In no way am I criticizing them or their actions. Period.

Gotcha

 

[milkmoney]

Good fucking God, u assclowns can give a guy a headache pretty early in the morning. I will saying again like a did a million pages ago,

Nobody died and the updates of said partys involved is good news and hopefully one day " the truth" of accident can be told ...

[emoji202]

 

[milkmoney]

The correct course of action is to wave them over to the boat casually wait till they get right next to the boat and then slap the everliving shit out of them

I am sure glad I don't have anymore seadoos, so u don't slap the everliving shit out of me.

[emoji202]

 

[Taboma]

Quoting from New To Boating's educational and informative post (As always).

"But none of that has anything to do with the matter at hand. Someone said that Brad Stewart indicates that a Jet Ski came directly into their path at speed --- don't know what speed but I suspect it was not 50 MPH but even it it was, assuming the Jet Ski issue is true all bets are off when that happens and operator experience has ZERO significance because the operator is now being forced to do "something immediately" that he DOES NOT want to do, has not practiced doing and that the boat IS NOT DESIGNED to do...."

It could be construed that this reads as if these particular types of boats were not designed for recreational 'shared water use', because they simply do not play well with others in a more congested environment.

That the very environment we often encounter while boating on Lake Havasu and can not for the most part be avoided, is not compatible with the speeds and timing parameters these boats require for safe operation.

Is that what's being stated here ?

Because the jet skiers are not going away, nor are the mom and pops putting along in their pontoon boats, or wake boats, boats darting out of bays, or the crowds in general. The unexpected is going to occur, no different than driving the freeways in So Cal, where I'm always expecting somebody to do something unexpected.

One of the problems I've found with boats running 100 mph or in excess of that on Havasu is trying to gauge that speed as it's approaching in order to perform the mental task of estimating time and distance, while simultaneously watching and dodging other traffic. The distance can close much more quickly than you've anticipated.

I've been enjoying high performance 'Recreational' boating for well over 50 years. But I do not enjoy, appreciate or feel the least bit safe getting buzzed and hosed down by some egomaniac with a larger wallet than brains that feels he has the need and right to pursue speeds in excess of 100 mph through traffic. Then the excuse becomes, his boat isn't designed to handle well at slower speeds when the unexpected happens so rest easy I've got this. :finger

Are we all supposed to just hug the shorelines as a display of awe and proper respect for the "Big Guns" who by the way, do feel they own the place.

I never want to see a speed limit on Lake Havasu, but I'd be happier than a fly eating shit if they placed a fairly restrictive length limit, with the only exception being house boats and casino ferrys.

Just my opinion, it don't mean shit and I'm not in the least suggesting anything relative to this most unfortunate accident.

 

[JD D05]

I don't know what it would take to put a law into place but we are dealing with a very very small amount of incidents it seems to me. I would bet more kids die every year from not having life jackets on than anything related to speed.

 

[Old Texan]

At the end of the day speed is just one thing that can/could contribute to an accident or incident. It all boils down to safe and sensible operation of any type of boat/vehicle.

The constant is, things happen. People are hurt. People die. Hell at the end of a year and the water related statistics are assembled to show deaths, I'd wager the majority year in and year out were drownings where if a watercraft was involved, it was little more than a swim platform in the water. If a moving boat is involved it just steps up situations emotionally and little else for the most part to the drowning. A 3 year old slips out of their floaties and drowns in 12" of water between 2 beached boats, 10' apart, the damned media will still mention boats in the accidental drowning, as if they had anything to do with it.

It all comes down to accidents will happen in all aspects of life. Per statistics, boating is likely safer than doing maintenance on your home. But a boat accident at high speeds makes better news than a guy falling off a ladder cleaning out his eave trough.

What we need to do as boaters able to maintain the freedom to pursue our "sport" is to represent ourselves to the general public as responsible, common sense, safe participants. We need at every opportunity in our resort communities, to educate the media that cover events in hopes, if and when they cover accidents, they have a working knowledge of the watercraft involved. Make them aware that a 150mph Skater is less dangerous than an inflatable kids raft basically. Plant the seed for them to look up statistics that show more toddlers/kids drown playing in that raft than falling out of a boat operated by a responsible adult.

Our sport will be killed by ignorant misinterpretation of actions than by the actions themselves......As RD and others have said, it's all about perception.

 

[Runs2rch]

I am sure glad I don't have anymore seadoos, so u don't slap the everliving shit out of me.

[emoji202]

Me too Milky....

I rode ours the same exact way I drive the boat. Quads and Razors get a bad rap also. IT IS THE DUMBASS OPERATING IT!!!!

Same goes on the streets and highways. TOO MUCH DUMBASSERY!!!!!

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I don't know what it would take to put a law into place but we are dealing with a very very small amount of incidents it seems to me. I would bet more kids die every year from not having life jackets on than anything related to speed.

Exactly. There is no reason to react to every incident with new legislation.

 

[New to boating]

Quoting from New To Boating's educational and informative post (As always).

"But none of that has anything to do with the matter at hand. Someone said that Brad Stewart indicates that a Jet Ski came directly into their path at speed --- don't know what speed but I suspect it was not 50 MPH but even it it was, assuming the Jet Ski issue is true all bets are off when that happens and operator experience has ZERO significance because the operator is now being forced to do "something immediately" that he DOES NOT want to do, has not practiced doing and that the boat IS NOT DESIGNED to do...."

It could be construed that this reads as if these particular types of boats were not designed for recreational 'shared water use', because they simply do not play well with others in a more congested environment.

That the very environment we often encounter while boating on Lake Havasu and can not for the most part be avoided, is not compatible with the speeds and timing parameters these boats require for safe operation.

Is that what's being stated here ?

Because the jet skiers are not going away, nor are the mom and pops putting along in their pontoon boats, or wake boats, boats darting out of bays, or the crowds in general. The unexpected is going to occur, no different than driving the freeways in So Cal, where I'm always expecting somebody to do something unexpected.

One of the problems I've found with boats running 100 mph or in excess of that on Havasu is trying to gauge that speed as it's approaching in order to perform the mental task of estimating time and distance, while simultaneously watching and dodging other traffic. The distance can close much more quickly than you've anticipated.

I've been enjoying high performance 'Recreational' boating for well over 50 years. But I do not enjoy, appreciate or feel the least bit safe getting buzzed and hosed down by some egomaniac with a larger wallet than brains that feels he has the need and right to pursue speeds in excess of 100 mph through traffic. Then the excuse becomes, his boat isn't designed to handle well at slower speeds when the unexpected happens so rest easy I've got this. :finger

Are we all supposed to just hug the shorelines as a display of awe and proper respect for the "Big Guns" who by the way, do feel they own the place.

I never want to see a speed limit on Lake Havasu, but I'd be happier than a fly eating shit if they placed a fairly restrictive length limit, with the only exception being house boats and casino ferrys.

Just my opinion, it don't mean shit and I'm not in the least suggesting anything relative to this most unfortunate accident.

Nothing written is to suggest that they are unsafe - they are very safe and safe at speed - my post is intended to magnify that ALL BOATS can be unsafe when you are forced into doing something that they are not designed to do, managing a crisis or set of conditions that are perilous and unexpected - Boats that run a Max speed of 50 MPH crash as well, bass boats crash, I have seen Row Boats sink when trying to navigate a "giant cruiser wake" at the blistering speed of maybe 3 MPH.

The reality is we have VERY FEW accidents on this lake when you consider the mix of the people and equipment using it - we just remember the accidents more vividly than all of the days when nothing happens and it all goes perfectly which is almost all of the other days

 

[Taboma]

Nothing written is to suggest that they are unsafe - they are very safe and safe at speed - my post is intended to magnify that ALL BOATS can be unsafe when you are forced into doing something that they are not designed to do, managing a crisis or set of conditions that are perilous and unexpected - Boats that run a Max speed of 50 MPH crash as well, bass boats crash, I have seen Row Boats sink when trying to navigate a "giant cruiser wake" at the blistering speed of maybe 3 MPH.

The reality is we have VERY FEW accidents on this lake when you consider the mix of the people and equipment using it - we just remember the accidents more vividly than all of the days when nothing happens and it all goes perfectly which is almost all of the other days

I agree completely, but there's a big difference in potential consequences. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I have read it stated far more than once on this board that big cats are more prone to roll-over accidents when forced to perform evasive maneuvers at the slower speeds. The very same slower speeds that the majority of boats are traveling at due to speed limitations and or congestion. In other words, theses boats handle best in a speed range in excess of or nearly double that of the average traffic they're engaged with. This is what I meant by "Their design limits their ability to play well with others"

And yes, I once rolled a canoe at far less than 3 mph, hospitalization was not required ---- because I know how to swim

 

[DC-88]

I'd add sanctioned events (poker runs/shootouts/charity stuff), and mfg permits for testing to that list of exceptions because the big boats are fun to watch and bring in revenue.
If someone took a factory 450 to a pee wee or small tt track to haul ass because it can "go over anything" and wadded it up avoiding a little kid on a PW50 pulling onto the track nobody would blame the kid . Havasu nor the river are big bodies of water

 

[lake p.a.l.]

I am trying to learn from this accident. We own a 308 Skater that maxes out at 100mph. Not very fast for a Skater but we LOVE it. I have +/- 80 hours of seat time now in this boat. I'm very curious to hear exactly what happened and what speed they were traveling. I am even more curious to hear from the experts what the best plan is if/when something like a pwc cutting you off happens. My wife is always in the passenger seat looking for debris, pwc, other boats passing us, etc. She is instrumental in our daily driving habits and a huge help each time out.
Hope all of the injuries suffered heal quickly and the boat is salvageable.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I am trying to learn from this accident. We own a 308 Skater that maxes out at 100mph. Not very fast for a Skater but we LOVE it. I have +/- 80 hours of seat time now in this boat. I'm very curious to hear exactly what happened and what speed they were traveling. I am even more curious to hear from the experts what the best plan is if/when something like a pwc cutting you off happens. My wife is always in the passenger seat looking for debris, pwc, other boats passing us, etc. She is instrumental in our daily driving habits and a huge help each time out.
Hope all of the injuries suffered heal quickly and the boat is salvageable.

Does your boat handle better the faster it goes? If you have 80 hours on your boat already.. you are probably have a considerable amount of knowledge given your other experience.

Given that experience, I'd be interested in your thoughts with regards to the handling of that type of boat.

 

[Ziggy]

I am trying to learn from this accident. We own a 308 Skater that maxes out at 100mph. Not very fast for a Skater but we LOVE it. I have +/- 80 hours of seat time now in this boat. I'm very curious to hear exactly what happened and what speed they were traveling. I am even more curious to hear from the experts what the best plan is if/when something like a pwc cutting you off happens. My wife is always in the passenger seat looking for debris, pwc, other boats passing us, etc. She is instrumental in our daily driving habits and a huge help each time out.
Hope all of the injuries suffered heal quickly and the boat is salvageable.

Personally that's what we all should do and not point fingers all the time.
Same when the eliminator deck crashed in Needles, I asked questions that help me learn/understand boat characteristics.

 

[Rotten deal]

To the jerk offs that want to put speed and or length restrictions on the lake . How would that help other boaters?Most if not all these accidents are solo events only that affect themselves and those would took that risk getting in a big fast boat. I don't see a bunch of boats and or jet ski's getting run over . So a formula 40 ss that runs 60 would be banned but jet ski's can do donuts all day ?

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Does your boat handle better the faster it goes? If you have 80 hours on your boat already.. you are probably have a considerable amount of knowledge given your other experience.

Given that experience, I'd be interested in your thoughts with regards to the handling of that type of boat.

I am by NO means an expert. We owned a 25' Daytona that did 105mph prior to this Skater. They are completely different boats, obviously. I had several hundred hours of seat time in the Daytona and loved that boat. The Skater turns much better above 60mph and will actually turn when asked to, where the Daytona was more of a controlled drift in my opinion. Right after we bought this Skater I had a very good friend who has owned, wrecked and rolled several Skaters and numerous other boats, teach me what the boat can do and what it doesn't like to do. I was scared like crazy the first few turns but I learned a LOT. I hope I never need any of that training but I have a MUCH better idea of what our boat is capable of if needed. I will never run our boat hard thru the turns because I don't trust the other boater coming the other way or the fisherman sitting in the middle of the channel or numerous other problems around the next bend. Our boat turns much better at 40mph and above. Below 40 it leans out a little, especially if loaded down with fuel and people. Above 75mph the steering is very nice and light. Please remember our boat is equipped with twin 300XS outboards and I know the inboard boats are completely a different animal. I've been in a 308 Skater with twin 800+ hp inboards with arnesons that turned very well above 100mph. Thankfully never had to do any evasive maneuvers. That 308 felt rock solid at 140+ mph going to and from SF Bay in open water when no other boats were around.
Sure hope these 3 guys heal up quickly.

 

[milkmoney]

To the jerk offs that want to put speed and or length restrictions on the lake . How would that help other boaters?Most if not all these accidents are solo events only that affect themselves and those would took that risk getting in a big fast boat. I don't see a bunch of boats and or jet ski's getting run over . So a formula 40 ss that runs 60 would be banned but jet ski's can do donuts all day ?

Ur so rotten lol [emoji6] [emoji202]

 

[Waterheater]

Maybe everyone that is bitchin should go to a different lake that already has those rules in place, speed limits and length limits. There's plenty of lakes that already have them out there. Just a thought...

 

[Taboma]

Abso-fucking-lutley --- What would truly make Lake Havasu a better recreational lake for all, would be a large presence of 50' Mystics. But why stop there, better yet 65' Sunseeker Predators, hell, they'll do 40 mph or better and I'm sure pull a wakeboarder and would be perfect for wake surfing

You're all right, there's no such thing as too big :rolleyes

 

[530RL]

Maybe a remake for boats on Lake Havasu......

[video=youtube;atSyNC0aP3Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atSyNC0aP3Y[/video]