Boat Question Hallett 210 Tab Angle

[LargeOrangeFont]

I never said it was impossible to compress liquid water. You are not compressing liquid water with a boat on a lake.. period.

There is no vessel holding the water in place for you to compress it. If there was you’d destroy your boat before you compressed water.

You are moving the water out of the way via displacement.

 

[RiverDave]

what about the one on your garage wall...

I don’t think I have one?

 

[RiverDave]

I for the life of me don’t understand why a technical thread would ever have to get personal.. I am finally reading the rest of this thread.

This stuff isn’t rocket science guys, use common sense and you will find your answers.

 

[spectracular]

Pretty sure we are coming from the same place.

Water compression from a boat ain’t happening.

 

[tkrrox]

Can you. It the arena on rocker plates? I can’t seem to find them


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[stevesdcb]

So.....my application, 210, 500hp, standard Bravo, closed bow sounds like horizontal vs parallel could go either way. What length? for a guy who wants a stable 75mph, ass planted, no skipping getting air etc.

I get what MYV was saying about 3' tabs & getting in trouble if you don't know what your doing, I ain't trying to go there.

 

[Melloyellovector]

So.....my application, 210, 500hp, standard Bravo, closed bow sounds like horizontal vs parallel could go either way. What length? for a guy who wants a stable 75mph, ass planted, no skipping getting air etc.

I get what MYV was saying about 3' tabs & getting in trouble if you don't know what your doing, I ain't trying to go there.

No ones tabs are 3ft long, RCD is smokin the devils lettuce, lol
You want honest answers call and talk to Bob at Dana ( Marine ind West ) hell tell you what size you need. And what not to use unless for race etc.
15in range I believe is what he’ll suggest, 24in range tabs are typically done on 210s purpose built. Not because anyone wants to be a wannabe racer, lol

 

[spectracular]

Can you. It the arena on rocker plates? I can’t seem to find them


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Google arneson rocker plates. More info on offshore only.

 

[tkrrox]

Google arneson rocker plates. More info on offshore only.

I saw that but can’t seem to find where to purchase. This looks like the closest thing to a full custom cavitation plates


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[spectracular]

I think Arneson sells direct...but I found these other sources that might be able to help:
[email protected]
http://www.westcoastoffshore.ca
http://www.twindisc.com/marine-products/propulsion/arneson-surface-drives/

 

[RiverDave]

so you got a job rigging boats????cool...

Turns out most the boat shops out here don't own go pro's, but they know a guy that does.. I've gone out a few times to film things for shops and see what's going on.. Also done is many times on my own boats.

RD

 

[RiverDave]

So.....my application, 210, 500hp, standard Bravo, closed bow sounds like horizontal vs parallel could go either way. What length? for a guy who wants a stable 75mph, ass planted, no skipping getting air etc.

I get what MYV was saying about 3' tabs & getting in trouble if you don't know what your doing, I ain't trying to go there.

If it was me I'd run them parallel to the bottom of the boat.. FYI A 210 with a 500 should run faster than 75. I'd suspect Bob will recommend something like the LT500's.



RD

 

[RiverDave]

As far as the "Whamo" plate.. I've been sitting here thinking how I can finally prove this to Steve once and for all and I've come up with a plan. The only question now is do we have a boat with a whamo plate on it ready to roll?

The whamo plate is adjustable.. I think the edges of that thing might just barely touch the water, but I don't think it's going to provide enough lift to make any difference.

My plan is simple we will take the whamo plate (it's adjustable) and tighten it just barely "snug" (not crazy tight).

But just for simplicity sake, I'd say to hold the nose of the boat down you'd have to create several hundred pounds of lift off the transom, and rock that weight forward onto the nose..

I'd be willing to set the whamo adjustment at say 50 lbs before it moves.. And I'll bet that damn thing is right where we set it at when it goes back on the trailer. If you are wondering how we can tell if 50 lbs moves it.. Well we will hang 50 lbs off the end of it, and when it moves we know we are there, and we can tap it back into place (level) with a hammer.

I think the only time that thing is truly touching the water is when the boat is in it's last stages of coming off plane or the earliest of getting on.. Even then I don't think it's providing any lift that's worth noting, I believe it's just touching water that is surrounding it.

That's my .02..

Loser buys Dinner at the Mexican Joint Steve.

RD

 

[Taboma]

post #49 has a pic...

https://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/finally-pulled-the-trigger.37228/#post-535365

Oh OK, thanks for finding that. Come to think of it, I have seen something similar done to a 23' Eliminator Vee (Couldn't tell you one Eliminator model from another). Was a Havasu neighbor years back, caught my eye because I'd seen those manually adjustable plates on a few outboards in my youth, back before helm controlled tabs were available. He mounted it in the same place and claimed it calmed the tendency of the boat to launch off waves, could be wrong, it's been a lot of years. I do recall he used the one like in your pic to get the angle right, then constructed a fixed one from stainless, an inch or so longer.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I for the life of me don’t understand why a technical thread would ever have to get personal.. I am finally reading the rest of this thread.

This stuff isn’t rocket science guys, use common sense and you will find your answers.

I don't think the thread got personal, other than personal beliefs …. but personally, I drug you into the thread because you don't believe it works.... when it does...it does calm the boat down at speed in ruff water... that was the reason it was tried, and it worked...

 

[Checkmate21]

Why do people put such long tabs on a 21 ft boat? A set of Bennetts or Lencos is all that you need.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Oh OK, thanks for finding that. Come to think of it, I have seen something similar done to a 23' Eliminator Vee (Couldn't tell you one Eliminator model from another). Was a Havasu neighbor years back, caught my eye because I'd seen those manually adjustable plates on a few outboards in my youth, back before helm controlled tabs were available. He mounted it in the same place and claimed it calmed the tendency of the boat to launch off waves, could be wrong, it's been a lot of years. I do recall he used the one like in your pic to get the angle right, then constructed a fixed one from stainless, an inch or so longer.

your post is exzact right... that is what happened when I tried it … it was a real plus to the 1/2 a dozen or so Nordic rage boats I've owned,... but I first tried it on my 21' advantage it wasn't the sr...but the low free board...soon as it got a little ruff out, that boat would start launching and banging across the water... added the plate, and zoom.. the boat rode flat across the ruff water and would go as fast as the motor would push it...being amazed at the results.....I tried it on numerous boats with the same problem...and it has always worked..years ago I even tried to get rd to fab up one, but it never happened..the tab is a step and trim, funny thing is when it's adjusted all the way up it's at the perfect angle, and it has a notch right where it needs to be to get it right in the right spot..... when the drive goes in it fits right between the upper and lower...just my opinion, but... you really don't want tabs doing anything till you need them, so tabs that are putting huge amounts of force really just scrub speed away... when I did the center sponson tab, critics said... that won't do nothing but help it get on plane.... b ut the plus was found in the ruff water when the boat would try to launch, a little tab and she would skip across the top of the water ….and run flat..

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Why do people put such long tabs on a 21 ft boat? A set of Bennetts or Lencos is all that you need.

your part correct.... the problem is when you out run the size and design of the boat... 21' halletts start kiting (launching) at 70 plus... and what happens is they case the rollers back of the re-entry design of the bow, which in turn launches the boat... now you are in for a ruff ass bottom busting ride and continuing will bust stringer and crack gunnels...what you need is a way to keep the transom lift equal to the bow lift... that's when you get the smooth schiada like ride...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I never said it was impossible to compress liquid water. You are not compressing liquid water with a boat on a lake.. period.

There is no vessel holding the water in place for you to compress it. If there was you’d destroy your boat before you compressed water.

You are moving the water out of the way via displacement.

you are 100% correct... and my bad for choice of wording....the water pressure is opposite and what causes the boat to lift because it can't compress the water..thank you for posting good info...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

As far as the "Whamo" plate.. I've been sitting here thinking how I can finally prove this to Steve once and for all and I've come up with a plan. The only question now is do we have a boat with a whamo plate on it ready to roll?

View attachment 682315

The whamo plate is adjustable.. I think the edges of that thing might just barely touch the water, but I don't think it's going to provide enough lift to make any difference.

My plan is simple we will take the whamo plate (it's adjustable) and tighten it just barely "snug" (not crazy tight).

But just for simplicity sake, I'd say to hold the nose of the boat down you'd have to create several hundred pounds of lift off the transom, and rock that weight forward onto the nose..

I'd be willing to set the whamo adjustment at say 50 lbs before it moves.. And I'll bet that damn thing is right where we set it at when it goes back on the trailer. If you are wondering how we can tell if 50 lbs moves it.. Well we will hang 50 lbs off the end of it, and when it moves we know we are there, and we can tap it back into place (level) with a hammer.

I think the only time that thing is truly touching the water is when the boat is in it's last stages of coming off plane or the earliest of getting on.. Even then I don't think it's providing any lift that's worth noting, I believe it's just touching water that is surrounding it.

That's my .02..

Loser buys Dinner at the Mexican Joint Steve.

RD

my son has one on his 210 Hallett 454 mag, and it doesn't need anything, no wheel barrow tabs, just the single ram bennets work fine... his boat doesn't launch... run on keel all the time..when you go across the lake @ 75 mph and get enough air to jump over the boats in front of you.... something aint right....but what I will say is this....post a pic of the transom of your schiada...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Pretty sure we are coming from the same place.

Water compression from a boat ain’t happening.

again, sorry for mis wording,,, it's should have said when the boat tries to compress the water, it lifts the boat..my bad...

 

[Taboma]

your post is exzact right... that is what happened when I tried it … it was a real plus to the 1/2 a dozen or so Nordic rage boats I've owned,... but I first tried it on my 21' advantage it wasn't the sr...but the low free board...soon as it got a little ruff out, that boat would start launching and banging across the water... added the plate, and zoom.. the boat rode flat across the ruff water and would go as fast as the motor would push it...being amazed at the results.....I tried it on numerous boats with the same problem...and it has always worked..years ago I even tried to get rd to fab up one, but it never happened..the tab is a step and trim, funny thing is when it's adjusted all the way up it's at the perfect angle, and it has a notch right where it needs to be to get it right in the right spot..... when the drive goes in it fits right between the upper and lower...just my opinion, but... you really don't want tabs doing anything till you need them, so tabs that are putting huge amounts of force really just scrub speed away... when I did the center sponson tab, critics said... that won't do nothing but help it get on plane.... b ut the plus was found in the ruff water when the boat would try to launch, a little tab and she would skip across the top of the water ….and run flat..

Successful racers have learned it's the little things, the things that require testing and tweaking for hours, that others aren't willing to devote, that makes the difference.
I think the most boring boat, car, truck or motorhome I could imagine you owning, would be a perfect one
I wonder, will you really gain the satisfaction you seek, by getting Dave to finally admit your Whamo plate works ? Will he ever ?
Nope, you and Dave agreeing would be as boring as the perfect boat --- although I did read where he admitted it might touch the water -- score one for Steve, LOL
Good luck

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Personally, I like the idea of these vs a set of flaps. Appears to be a whole lot more science behind them vs a simple tab. Tabs will add drag when touching the water. As others have stated tabs should be clear of the water when retracted. Tabs cannot create lift.

http://www.arneson-industries.com/page.php?type=products&id=rocker

2ff is right...water can be compressed...however the affect on a boat is basically squat.water temp will affect the viscosity more than compression. My gut tells me that the influence of increased viscosity due to compression of water within the boundary layer along the running surface is about the same as the extra bit of thrust a 747 would experience if someone farted during takeoff.

this is what I have been saying all along.... boat benefit more with wider plates than longer....can you amagine the force put on the transom of a boat with long tabs out that far on re entry?

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Successful racers have learned it's the little things, the things that require testing and tweaking for hours, that others aren't willing to devote, that makes the difference.
I think the most boring boat, car, truck or motorhome I could imagine you owning, would be a perfect one
I wonder, will you really gain the satisfaction you seek, by getting Dave to finally admit your Whamo plate works ? Will he ever ?
Nope, you and Dave agreeing would be as boring as the perfect boat --- although I did read where he admitted it might touch the water -- score one for Steve, LOL
Good luck View attachment 682321

just to add some off topic, but kinda of related.... you should ride in my new freight shaker motor home , I took the stock 255 tires off and went with the 275's,... shes no "HOLY GRAIL" ALPINE but... getting close..it has the new "V" ride suspension.... bout time freight shaker did something to improve the ride on the motorhome chassis

 

[Taboma]

again, sorry for mis wording,,, it's should have said when the boat tries to compress the water, it lifts the boat..my bad...

The vast majority of us reading this knew exactly what you were referring to and what it does and why --- others, well they just like to spend hours arguing anything and everything, no matter how mundane or irrelevant.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

you are 100% correct... and my bad for choice of wording....the water pressure is opposite and what causes the boat to lift because it can't compress the water..thank you for posting good info...

All good. To your point, how the tabs, plates, notches, pads, or steps displace the water is what matters for performance and ride.

It is an important distinction because the displaced water has to go somewhere.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The vast majority of us reading this knew exactly what you were referring to and what it does and why --- others, well they just like to spend hours arguing anything and everything, no matter how mundane or irrelevant.

If that didn’t happen RD would be a pauper and this entire forum would only have about 50 threads

 

[rvrrun]

I for the life of me don’t understand why a technical thread would ever have to get personal.. I am finally reading the rest of this thread.

This stuff isn’t rocket science guys, use common sense and you will find your answers.

Because it can be infuriating when someone sticks steadfast to their erroneous beliefs when faced with sound logic and reason.

...liberals seem to do this quite often

 

[2FORCEFULL]

as a lot of you know,... this discussion, argument..or what ever has been going on for about 10yrs...I took a boat to havasu and RD couldn't find the time to come out and ride in the boat....so it never has been laid to rest,.. I have a boat in my yard at vegas...with the plate... if it didn't work... I would have kept trying things till I figured it out... but it did work... getting others on RDP to agree...not happening...so, I guess for the sake...it does nothing

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Because it can be infuriating when someone sticks steadfast to their erroneous beliefs when faced with sound logic and reason.

...liberals seem to do this quite often

that's always the case with theory and fact...someone looks at some thing and stays narrowed minded and states... that can't work... but never proves the statement..while all along the it has been proven that it does...I'm a try it type person... you say it works... I think it don't... I will prove one of us wrong or right...to an extent ...sometimes I will just hold your beer and watch...lol

 

[Taboma]

If that didn’t happen RD would be a pauper and this entire forum would only have about 50 threads

I'm conflicted as to which response is the most appropriate in this case ---- Hmmm, is it Noted or yes ?

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I seen a boat on the ramp....can't remember the brand... but it was a bass boat with a big ass outboard motor....underneath the bottom it had a duck tail looking tab that was shaped like the bottom of the boat...

 

[Taboma]

just to add some off topic, but kinda of related.... you should ride in my new freight shaker motor home , I took the stock 255 tires off and went with the 275's,... shes no "HOLY GRAIL" ALPINE but... getting close..it has the new "V" ride suspension.... bout time freight shaker did something to improve the ride on the motorhome chassis

I can see one of those in my stage II retirement future. Stage II is my wife joining me in retirement and us setting out to explore the good ole USA --- with a few toys in tow of course.
Is that thread still ongoing ? I was following it for awhile, then it kinda got lost in the background scatter of irrelevant arguments that pays Dave's bills.
I think when I last tuned in, I'd commented on the bed and how my wife wouldn't like making it. To appease her I'd have to settle for a queen setup. She spent years dealing with a similar V-berth bed in our sportsfisher, comfy but a bitch to crawl around and make --- plus the difficulty age brings with climbing in and out.
Where is that thread now ? I'd like to jump back in and see what I've missed --- thanks !!

 

[Taboma]

as a lot of you know,... this discussion, argument..or what ever has been going on for about 10yrs...I took a boat to havasu and RD couldn't find the time to come out and ride in the boat....so it never has been laid to rest,.. I have a boat in my yard at vegas...with the plate... if it didn't work... I would have kept trying things till I figured it out... but it did work... getting others on RDP to agree...not happening...so, I guess for the sake...it does nothing

In the case of the Whamo plate, I believe you. It worked for my neighbor's Eliminator and he's got the "Engineering" credentials and numerous patents to counter any claimed insanity. He's also smart enough to realize there's no single "Do Everything" boat, so he has several, one for each rather specific purpose. He did however encounter a problem with his 90+ foot McKinna, it's to large to fit on his Avalon mooring buoy --- oh the pain

 

[Melloyellovector]

If it was me I'd run them parallel to the bottom of the boat.. FYI A 210 with a 500 should run faster than 75. I'd suspect Bob will recommend something like the LT500's.



RD

Since the thread has gone all over the place, a 210 w a 500 isn’t running much faster then a true 75
You’ve made that comment a few times in the last month or so.

 

[RCDave]

No ones tabs are 3ft long, RCD is smokin the devils lettuce, lol
You want honest answers call and talk to Bob at Dana ( Marine ind West ) hell tell you what size you need. And what not to use unless for race etc.
15in range I believe is what he’ll suggest, 24in range tabs are typically done on 210s purpose built. Not because anyone wants to be a wannabe racer, lol

I was just being sarcastic and trying to rile up 2FF! All in good fun

 

[spectras only]

Maybe if 2FF called his 'whamo plate' a ride plate, RD would have given him more credit?

We had those 'Whamo' plates on the Catalina boats since 1970. Worked for jetboats, would help for stern drives as well after dialing in the angle.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

View attachment 682372 Maybe if 2FF called his 'whamo plate' a ride plate, RD would have given him more credit?

We had those 'Whamo' plates on the Catalina boats since 1970. Worked for jetboats, would help for stern drives as well after dialing in the angle.

Funny that's what I called it in the beginning … RDp crew changed the name to wammo with all their little digs... it was before the cry'n Jordon though..

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Since the thread has gone all over the place, a 210 w a 500 isn’t running much faster then a true 75
You’ve made that comment a few times in the last month or so.

LOL... how can that be when there are so many out there with stock 454's doing 78 mph....lol

 

[Melloyellovector]

LOL... how can that be when there are so many out there with stock 454's doing 78 mph....lol

In Parker, when the dams open, going doing river at 68 mph with a 10mph current, lmao
I mean technically gps is being honest, but the drivers aren’t

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

In Parker, when the dams open, going doing river at 68 mph with a 10mph current, lmao
I mean technically gps is being honest, but the drivers aren’t

The pitot tube is being honest... The square speedo in the 210 has no gps

 

[Runs2rch]

Since the thread has gone all over the place, a 210 w a 500 isn’t running much faster then a true 75
You’ve made that comment a few times in the last month or so.

They built a closed deck with a 525sc back in 94. 490 PSHP. It ran in the 80's.

 

[Melloyellovector]

They built a closed deck with a 525sc back in 94. 490 PSHP. It ran in the 80's.

Is that a 500? Lol - Nooooope
And sure it ran in the 80s like 83 ish maybe. And was that with gps or radar. Or fake speedos.
Me and Cole trickle both have more then 600hp and 80s is scootin I’d be really impressed if a 500 or a 525 could keep up with us. Just sayin

 

[UltraLucky]

Since the thread has gone all over the place, a 210 w a 500 isn’t running much faster then a true 75
You’ve made that comment a few times in the last month or so.

I concur

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Is that a 500? Lol - Nooooope
And sure it ran in the 80s like 83 ish maybe. And was that with gps or radar. Or fake speedos.
Me and Cole trickle both have more then 600hp and 80s is scootin I’d be really impressed if a 500 or a 525 could keep up with us. Just sayin

It is yoooou're tabs. They are causing too much drag.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

cole trickle doesn't own a boat...

And..... we are back to that.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I think Arneson sells direct...but I found these other sources that might be able to help:
[email protected]
http://www.westcoastoffshore.ca
http://www.twindisc.com/marine-products/propulsion/arneson-surface-drives/

anyone here run these?


Arneson Rocker Plates™
Arneson Rocker Plates™ are the newest generation in trim tabs.

The Arneson Rocker Plates™ offer better control for your boat than conventional trim tabs due to the methodology of how they work. We are actually adding Rocker or Hook to the running surface.

Conventional trim tabs are one dimensional flaps that can only create tremendous amounts of drag to attempt to control the boats ride attitude.

The Arneson Rocker Plates™ work simply in effect by changing the running surface of the boat.

They are mounted flush with the bottom and actually become an extension or continuation of the boats bottom, adding length to the running surface.

As the plates are operated upward, they create rocker in the running surface and this creates a low-pressure area. The low-pressure area will cause a the stern to lower, and in turn raise the bow of a boat. Too much Rocker and the boat will Porpoise.

By raising the bow, the Rocker Plates play the same role as positive trim from the outdrive.

By allowing the Rocker Plates™ to raise the bow, the trim angle of the outdrive can stay more neutral and the propellers thrust can be directed in the direction of the boat is going instead of downward. This change in the thrust angle adds speed to the boat by allowing the boats horsepower to be used more efficiently.

As the plate is lowered, the changing effects adds “Hook” to the running surface and this lowers the bow of the boat by creating a high pressure area.

Everyone can relate that a boat with hook in the bottom will cause the bow to run lower than one without hook, and the amount of hook required to lower the bow is substantially less than the corresponding amount of downward movement required in a conventional trim tab.

What this means is that the Arneson Rocker Plates™ can lower the bow of a boat with substantially less drag than a conventional trim tab system and you will loose far less speed in the process.

Likewise a boat that has a problem Porposing can benefit from the Rocker Plates™ because the plates can add adjustable amounts of hook until the Porposing goes away.

 

[Taboma]

anyone here run these?


Arneson Rocker Plates™
Arneson Rocker Plates™ are the newest generation in trim tabs.

The Arneson Rocker Plates™ offer better control for your boat than conventional trim tabs due to the methodology of how they work. We are actually adding Rocker or Hook to the running surface.

Conventional trim tabs are one dimensional flaps that can only create tremendous amounts of drag to attempt to control the boats ride attitude.

The Arneson Rocker Plates™ work simply in effect by changing the running surface of the boat.

They are mounted flush with the bottom and actually become an extension or continuation of the boats bottom, adding length to the running surface.

As the plates are operated upward, they create rocker in the running surface and this creates a low-pressure area. The low-pressure area will cause a the stern to lower, and in turn raise the bow of a boat. Too much Rocker and the boat will Porpoise.

By raising the bow, the Rocker Plates play the same role as positive trim from the outdrive.

By allowing the Rocker Plates™ to raise the bow, the trim angle of the outdrive can stay more neutral and the propellers thrust can be directed in the direction of the boat is going instead of downward. This change in the thrust angle adds speed to the boat by allowing the boats horsepower to be used more efficiently.

As the plate is lowered, the changing effects adds “Hook” to the running surface and this lowers the bow of the boat by creating a high pressure area.

Everyone can relate that a boat with hook in the bottom will cause the bow to run lower than one without hook, and the amount of hook required to lower the bow is substantially less than the corresponding amount of downward movement required in a conventional trim tab.

What this means is that the Arneson Rocker Plates™ can lower the bow of a boat with substantially less drag than a conventional trim tab system and you will loose far less speed in the process.

Likewise a boat that has a problem Porposing can benefit from the Rocker Plates™ because the plates can add adjustable amounts of hook until the Porposing goes away.

Seems to be a lot of opinions over on Offshore Only about them, some positive, some not. Odd that most of the posts are 10 or more years old, not since ??

 

[Outdrive1]

What does a trim tab with a strake on it have to do with a whammo plate? I’m confused.


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[Taboma]

What does a trim tab with a strake on it have to do with a whammo plate? I’m confused.


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I don't think the Arneson Rocker Plates have anything to do with Steve's Wamma-lamma-jamma plate ---- pretty cool concept, the mechanical aspect to create a rocker or hook is certainly different. You really can't see that in the pics Steve posted.