Boat Question Hallett 210 Tab Angle

[LargeOrangeFont]

Jesus. Wtf happened in here. [emoji51]


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Same thing that happens in every thread. You must be knew.

 

[RiverDave]

pretty ignorant statement, so you are say'n a notched transom does nothing....LOL...

It absolutely does something.. It acts as a stand off box. The top of the notch in a notched transom never touches the water underway. Putting the little plate back there up and out of the flow doesn't do anything. Moving the running surface forward from the drive does.

RD

 

[RiverDave]

My 2 cents, on a 210 doesn’t make a shit of difference

GT and Islander rigged them usually horizontal, they have their reasons

On my vector we set them up horizontal also

Honestly horizontal on a 210 w tabs like we have are causing drag at all times and speeds ( regardless of position or speed ) I can put mine all the way up and they’re still in contact with the water. Maybe 4-6in less at speed versus Brandon’s

I have run w Brandon’s a couple times and I may pull on him slightly but mine also has blue printed bottom and work inside that lighten the boat.
Minimal difference at best.

For me I like em horizontal, flat makes a great sitting area in the water, no swim steps needed. LOL

Other then that I don’t believe either way really makes a shit of difference on a 210

They shouldn't be touching the water if they are all the way up.. Regardless of orientation.

RD

 

[kevnmcd]

Skav.....liked your comment about seeing MYV, in the 210, leading the way to Pirates yesterday. Anybody have video of it? wish I could of seen it myself.

He was running next to me for a while on the way up but I was driving so didn't get any video but I can say, there wasn't much of the hull touching the water!

 

[Melloyellovector]

They shouldn't be touching the water if they are all the way up.. Regardless of orientation.

RD

Hold your camera off the ass of my 210, I don’t believe it, ill hold your beer

 

[2FORCEFULL]

It absolutely does something.. It acts as a stand off box. The top of the notch in a notched transom never touches the water underway. Putting the little plate back there up and out of the flow doesn't do anything. Moving the running surface forward from the drive does.

RD

you're never gonna get it dave because you don't understand and don't wanna take the time to learn...that's why you say you're gonna do a go pro.... but never do...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

 

[RiverDave]

Hold your camera off the ass of my 210, I don’t believe it, ill hold your beer

They do make go pros and suction cups for a reason. We use them on the backs of boats all the time to see what’s going on and for setup adjustment

 

[RiverDave]

you're never gonna get it dave because you don't understand and don't wanna take the time to learn...that's why you say you're gonna do a go pro.... but never do...

I’ll put a go pro on one anytime ya want Steve. .

 

[2FORCEFULL]

it's pretty basic really...water seeks it's own level....as a boat goes across the water it compresses the water... as soon as it hits the transom the water level trys to go back up to the original level... so if you had a drawing of the bottom of the boat, the angle of the returning water would not be straight with the bottom or at the same angle... the angle would be more opposite as in heading back up to water level

 

[Outdrive1]

What I understand a notched transom to do is shorten the running surface for less drag.

If you had a 21’ boat running at speed and the water is breaking at let’s say 18’. Thats three feet of boat in the water. If you take that same boat and notch the transom 6”, now you have the same boat with only 2 1/2 feet of boat in the water. You also change the center of gravity because basically you set the drive back 6 more inches. Which works on some boats and not on others. You’ve changed the handling as well. Not sure what the wammo plate does but I get that water is breaking upwards after the transom. Maybe it lets less water hit the drive which would create less drag? Idk. Just my thoughts.


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[2FORCEFULL]

They do make go pros and suction cups for a reason. We use them on the backs of boats all the time to see what’s going on and for setup adjustment

so you got a job rigging boats????cool...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

What I understand a notched transom to do is shorten the running surface for less drag.

If you had a 21’ boat running at speed and the water is breaking at let’s say 18’. Thats three feet of boat in the water. If you take that same boat and notch the transom 6”, now you have the same boat with only 2 1/2 feet of boat in the water. You also change the center of gravity because basically you set the drive back 6 more inches. Which works on some boats and not on others. You’ve changed the handling as well. Not sure what the wammo plate does but I get that water is breaking upwards after the transom. Maybe it lets less water hit the drive which would create less drag? Idk. Just my thoughts.


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But, one other thing a notched transom does … look at it this way...take the little plate and jump of a cliff into the water while you are holding it in your hands...what it does on the back of the boat is slow down the transom from burying as deep in the water, which in turn stops the boat from kiteing and casing the rollers... help to keep the boat running on keel in ruff water..

 

[Outdrive1]

so you got a job rigging boats????cool...

Dave has a lot of knowledge, as do you. It’s always good to learn and try things. You’ve probably owned more boats than anyone I know and tried a lot of shit. Dave has spent more time around boat builders than anyone I know. It’s good to hear both ideas. [emoji106]

That being said I’ve driven more fast boats than both of you. [emoji111]️[emoji8]. But I still don’t know shit.


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[Outdrive1]

But, one other thing a notched transom does … look at it this way...take the little plate and jump of a cliff into the water while you are holding it in your hands...what it does on the back of the boat is slow down the transom from burying as deep in the water, which in turn stops the boat from kiteing and casing the rollers... help to keep the boat running on keel in ruff water..

Wouldn’t the angle of the water change with speed? To a point where it doesn’t touch anything at a higher speed? The transom is wet at rest and dry at speed, is it not??


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[2FORCEFULL]

it also sends smoother water to the drive....

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Wouldn’t the angle of the water change with speed? To a point where it doesn’t touch anything at a higher speed? The transom is wet at rest and dry at speed, is it not??


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you're correct, but that not the point nore is it the intended use of the plate...the plate stops the kiting and lets the boat run smoother in ruffer water,...on glass water.. probley won't be doing much,... but running across lake havasu on sat... that's when you will see the difference... I don't know of anybody that was running a center sponson tab on a cat when I did it.... but it's sure hard to find one without one now...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

for those of you that watched the video, you can see how much drag and lift is still going on with those short tabs when they are all the way up,...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

so I'm gonna call it evolution when some one try's some thing new,and it works.or even if it don't..my self I can remember when boat builders thought that the use of tabs was because the bottom was bad.... you would go to them and say, my boat rides like shit when it's ruff, they would say, well, don't go out when it's ruff...

 

[Melloyellovector]

They do make go pros and suction cups for a reason. We use them on the backs of boats all the time to see what’s going on and for setup adjustment

I get it, but I’m only doing it with your ass hanging off the back while I hold your beer.

I completely understand the concept and how they work on different hulls etc
But when it comes to 210s unless your running huge power and 6 drives, changing the center of gravity and the wet surface of the bottom etc...
I don’t believe there is a noticeable difference with running them even w keel or horizontal (on a 210 or vector)
Honestly running tabs as big as mine for an average boater can get you in trouble quick if you don’t know what your doing. They for sure work and can change handling characteristics in seconds. Used wrong at high speeds could make for a bad day.

Just my 2 cents

 

[RCDave]

For 90% of boaters, the need for 2-3' tabs are an indicator you need a bigger boat!!!

 

[2FORCEFULL]

and for the record... I still say a cav plate would eliminate the need for anything else

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I get it, but I’m only doing it with your ass hanging off the back while I hold your beer.

I completely understand the concept and how they work on different hulls etc
But when it comes to 210s unless your running huge power and 6 drives, changing the center of gravity and the wet surface of the bottom etc...
I don’t believe there is a noticeable difference with running them even w keel or horizontal (on a 210 or vector)
Honestly running tabs as big as mine for an average boater can get you in trouble quick if you don’t know what your doing. They for sure work and can change handling characteristics in seconds. Used wrong at high speeds could make for a bad day.

Just my 2 cents

heres what I think... and I have checked...running them horizonal if you get in the front of the boat and have someone in the boat lift them up...while on the trailer....you can't see them, and if you have them lower them they have to be pretty far down before you see them.... but when you do the same thing with them parallel... when they go down, they end up wider than the back of the boat as they kick out to the side instead of going down... so you see the sides of them....

 

[Taboma]

you're correct, but that not the point nore is it the intended use of the plate...the plate stops the kiting and lets the boat run smoother in ruffer water,...on glass water.. probley won't be doing much,... but running across lake havasu on sat... that's when you will see the difference... I don't know of anybody that was running a center sponson tab on a cat when I did it.... but it's sure hard to find one without one now...

I've been reading you and Dave argue about these things, or thing this, whatever it is, for years --- have you posted a pic of this actually mounted on one of your boats ?
If you have any form of trim tabs, then why would you need this Wamo (?) plate ? I use my tabs for many things other than to run in rough water, especially if a hefer comes on board Or to plane at slow speeds, or water start skiers, it sounds like your plate only serves one purpose.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

For 90% of boaters, the need for 2-3' tabs are an indicator you need a bigger boat!!!

your right, and they weren't designed for that either... but when you are in competition , and limited to a 21' boat....that's when they are needed..like I said... you can go faster than 70 in a Hallett 210...but you are gonna spend some doe on the transom..

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I've been reading you and Dave argue about these things, or thing this, whatever it is, for years --- have you posted a pic of this actually mounted on one of your boats ?
If you have any form of trim tabs, then why would you need this Wamo (?) plate ? I use my tabs for many things other than to run in rough water, especially if a hefer comes on board Or to plane at slow speeds, or water start skiers, it sounds like your plate only serves one purpose.

the reason I first tried the plate was because I needed a smoother ride in ruff water..running tabs down farther and farther just scrubs off speed.. and then runs the boat too wet... ride actually get ruffer...but with the plate I was able to run on pin and stay on the keel...

 

[RCDave]

your right, and they weren't designed for that either... but when you are in competition , and limited to a 21' boat....that's when they are needed..like I said... you can go faster than 70 in a Hallett 210...but you are gonna spend some doe on the transom..

3' tabs are mostly for racing. For the rest, they are indicated by transom protologists. Lol

 

[Taboma]

the reason I first tried the plate was because I needed a smoother ride in ruff water..running tabs down farther and farther just scrubs off speed.. and then runs the boat too wet... ride actually get ruffer...but with the plate I was able to run on pin and stay on the keel...

So you removed the trim tabs ? Even tabs up are going to help keep the transom from squatting as the bow rises ---- but then again I'm not sure what this device even looks like.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

One of the reasons I like to buy different boats, I take them out, all in using every thing they came with..and see how they work....some boats.. need nothing, as in all the schiada's I've owned... call it lucky... but out of a dozen... none needed anything done to the bottom or transom...but the rest....always som ting wong...

 

[RiverDave]

Post some pictures ca of the whamo plates installed Steve.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

So you removed the trim tabs ? Even tabs up are going to help keep the transom from squatting as the bow rises ---- but then again I'm not sure what this device even looks like.

not at all, it's just adding a 3rd trim tab,... and you are correct, tabs, even when up cause transom lift...I've taken them off run the boat, and put them back on... there is a difference...most tabs you can just remove the plates and go run it..

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Post some pictures ca of the whamo plates installed Steve.

what about the one on your garage wall...

 

[2FORCEFULL]

3' tabs are mostly for racing. For the rest, they are indicated by transom protologists. Lol

like the weekend race to topoc???

 

[RCDave]

like the weekend race to topoc???

Hah!!!!! 98% of those are wanna be racers or think their boat is fast.

You forgot the 8 minute ride from dam to dam below Havasu.

 

[Blackmagic94]

3' tabs are mostly for racing. For the rest, they are indicated by transom protologists. Lol

So I need a bigger boat

 

[Taboma]

not at all, it's just adding a 3rd trim tab,... and you are correct, tabs, even when up cause transom lift...I've taken them off run the boat, and put them back on... there is a difference...most tabs you can just remove the plates and go run it..

Adding a 3rd tab ? Well that's not what I was picturing OK, I'm sure eventually I'll guess right, but nope, I'm just going to return to my seat and wait for a pic of the -------

 

[Outdrive1]

and for the record... I still say a cav plate would eliminate the need for anything else

Well, good thing I have a set of those.


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[2FORCEFULL]

Adding a 3rd tab ? Well that's not what I was picturing OK, I'm sure eventually I'll guess right, but nope, I'm just going to return to my seat and wait for a pic of the -------

View attachment 682145

computer problems, pics won't load

DSC03574.JPG

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

it's pretty basic really...water seeks it's own level....as a boat goes across the water it compresses the water... as soon as it hits the transom the water level trys to go back up to the original level... so if you had a drawing of the bottom of the boat, the angle of the returning water would not be straight with the bottom or at the same angle... the angle would be more opposite as in heading back up to water level

For the record, water does not compress Mr. Science.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

Well, good thing I have a set of those.


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that's not long enough to do shit, One day i'm gonna slap a go pro on there and show you

 

[Outdrive1]

that's not long enough to do shit, One day i'm gonna slap a go pro on there and show you

I see what you did there.


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[2FORCEFULL]

Question
Can you compress a liquid (water)?
Asked by: Guy Matthews

Answer
The answer is yes, You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible.

To understand what happens, remember that all matter is composed of a collection of atoms. Even though matter seems to be very solid, in actuality, the atoms are relative far apart, and matter is mostly empty space. However, due to the forces between the molecules, they strongly resist being pressed closer together, but they can be. You probably have experienced compressing something as hard as steel. Have you ever bounced a steel ball bearing off a sidewalk? When you do that, the 'bounce' is due to compressing the steel ball, just a tiny little spot that comes into contact with the sidewalk. It compresses and then springs back, causing the bounce.

The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface.

A consequence of compressing a fluid is that the viscosity, that is the resistance of the fluid to flow, also increases as the density increases. This is because the atoms are forced closer together, and thus cannot slip by each other as easily as they can when the fluid is at atmospheric pressure.
Answered by: David L. Alexander

 

[RCDave]

Question
Can you compress a liquid (water)?
Asked by: Guy Matthews

Answer
The answer is yes, You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible.

To understand what happens, remember that all matter is composed of a collection of atoms. Even though matter seems to be very solid, in actuality, the atoms are relative far apart, and matter is mostly empty space. However, due to the forces between the molecules, they strongly resist being pressed closer together, but they can be. You probably have experienced compressing something as hard as steel. Have you ever bounced a steel ball bearing off a sidewalk? When you do that, the 'bounce' is due to compressing the steel ball, just a tiny little spot that comes into contact with the sidewalk. It compresses and then springs back, causing the bounce.

The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface.

A consequence of compressing a fluid is that the viscosity, that is the resistance of the fluid to flow, also increases as the density increases. This is because the atoms are forced closer together, and thus cannot slip by each other as easily as they can when the fluid is at atmospheric pressure.
Answered by: David L. Alexander

This a great case study to report the impact of 3' tabs on a 21' boat. At the end of the day, it's still insufficient to offset the impact of 10,000 lb wake surf boat wakes or victory at sea Mead days

 

[2FORCEFULL]

So you removed the trim tabs ? Even tabs up are going to help keep the transom from squatting as the bow rises ---- but then again I'm not sure what this device even looks like.

post #49 has a pic...

https://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/finally-pulled-the-trigger.37228/#post-535365

 

[guest hs]

Can someone post a pic of a steped or notched transom you guys are talking about? Advantage uses it on some of their boats and I have my own interpretation of what it does.

 

[spectracular]

Personally, I like the idea of these vs a set of flaps. Appears to be a whole lot more science behind them vs a simple tab. Tabs will add drag when touching the water. As others have stated tabs should be clear of the water when retracted. Tabs cannot create lift.

http://www.arneson-industries.com/page.php?type=products&id=rocker

2ff is right...water can be compressed...however the affect on a boat is basically squat.water temp will affect the viscosity more than compression. My gut tells me that the influence of increased viscosity due to compression of water within the boundary layer along the running surface is about the same as the extra bit of thrust a 747 would experience if someone farted during takeoff.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Question
Can you compress a liquid (water)?
Asked by: Guy Matthews

Answer
The answer is yes, You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible.

To understand what happens, remember that all matter is composed of a collection of atoms. Even though matter seems to be very solid, in actuality, the atoms are relative far apart, and matter is mostly empty space. However, due to the forces between the molecules, they strongly resist being pressed closer together, but they can be. You probably have experienced compressing something as hard as steel. Have you ever bounced a steel ball bearing off a sidewalk? When you do that, the 'bounce' is due to compressing the steel ball, just a tiny little spot that comes into contact with the sidewalk. It compresses and then springs back, causing the bounce.

The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface.

A consequence of compressing a fluid is that the viscosity, that is the resistance of the fluid to flow, also increases as the density increases. This is because the atoms are forced closer together, and thus cannot slip by each other as easily as they can when the fluid is at atmospheric pressure.
Answered by: David L. Alexander

Yea Steve, you are compressing water atoms with your wham-o plate. That’s why if you pour that same water in your engine you start bending connecting rods.

You are displacing the water, not compressing it.

If you were compressing water with the hull or piece of metal bolted to your hull, you’d have no boat left, as you’d create a water jet.

Those operate at an average of 60,000 PSI, and compress water around 11%.

For the purposes of this discussion, water does not compress.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Personally, I like the idea of these vs a set of flaps. Appears to be a whole lot more science behind them vs a simple tab. Tabs will add drag when touching the water. As others have stated tabs should be clear of the water when retracted. Tabs cannot create lift.

http://www.arneson-industries.com/page.php?type=products&id=rocker

2ff is right...water can be compressed...however the affect on a boat is basically squat.water temp will affect the viscosity more than compression. My gut tells me that the influence of increased viscosity due to compression of water within the boundary layer along the running surface is about the same as the extra bit of thrust a 747 would experience if someone farted during takeoff.

You too are confusing displacement with compression.

 

[guest hs]

You too are confusing displacement with compression.

This is 100% correct water can’t be compressed but it can be dissplaced

 

[spectracular]

You too are confusing displacement with compression.

Actually I am not. Its highly unlikely, but it is possible.

Quick excerpt.

Yes! Temperature effects the viscosity of water and it’s an inverse relation between them.

Viscosity is mainly governed by two things,

1. Cohesive Forces between molecules
2. Intermolecular collisions between layers

The Cohesive forces can easily be explained as whenever a top layer (suppose with higher velocity) moves, the neighboring molecules try to pull it back decreasing its velocity and similarly the top layer will pull the neighboring molecules forward.

Now, consider two layers and suppose the layer on top is having a higher velocity than the layer below. We know molecules have a random motion and often collide with each other. So, let’s say some molecules from the top layer move towards the bottom layer and similarly some from the bottom layer move towards the top layer. As the top layer has more velocity, the top layer molecules will give away some of its K.E to the bottom layer molecules there by increasing the velocity of the bottom layer. Similarly the top layer as it has lost some energy, its velocity will decrease.

Coming to the effect of temperature, when the temperature increases the K.E of the molecules increases, this is seen more prominently in gases and in fact the K.E is proportional to the square root of temperature. Now as the K.E is more there will be more collisions and hence more energy transfer and hence more viscosity. Which is the reason why the viscosity increases with increase in temperature for gasses.

The same is not the case with liquids/water for that matter as although the K.E of the molecules increases (but not as much as it is in gases), the cohesive forces decrease by a huge amount making the viscosity less for water.

Is water compressible or incompressible?
Of course, the water, like any other matter is compressible. But before you could throw in a debatable statement of incompressible fluids into our discussion box below, you might have to brush up about the term bulk modulus. In general, it’s defined as how much a liquid or a solid can resist the pressure applied to compress it from all the directions. As water has a bulk modulus of 2.2×109 Pa, water is compressible.

But it is not practically compressible for the least. In order to compress water, you would need so much pressure. Even at the deepest regions of our oceans, the density of water is only a little higher than that of the water at the surface, and the compression is approximately around 1.8% only. So the bottom line is when you compress the water, it turns into solid, the density increases apparently and it exists in one of the 16—excluding the one in your freezer—known crystalline phases of the ice. As of 2015, we only know that there are only a few high-pressure ice phases of water and the rest will be unlocked very soon in the future, if we could attain pressures beyond the existing limits.