Big brother is watching....from somewhere near the I40 bridge in Topock

[FreeBird236]

To me the markers in the back ground start the no wake channel. Looks like the boater from Texas cut thru the lane to get in the no wake chanel. Maybe if the boat hit the marker next to him it would be more clear.

I don't think the background bouy's actually start the no wake zone, but I haven't been though there for awhile, the water has been up all spring and summer.

You technically can blast up outside the bouys on the Ca. side if you want to chance it. I doubt that's the case with this picture however.

 

[Taboma]

I'm still waiting for "the money shot" where the Fountain running at speed with almost everybody standing, having just passed an underwater obstruction buoy (red diamond), discovers a sand bar. :yikes

Not that I have any desire to see anybody injured, but I can't help but be reminded of another infamous Fountain video where everybody standing didn't work out so well.

I get the concept of 'trim high and let it fly', but with that many passengers standing, I can't even remotely consider that safe boating, given the area.

I'm also not sure if the brownish color change almost directly in front of him is a sandbar or something out of focus in the foreground.

I don't know for sure where the 1st 5 mph buoy starts, but if you check out an aerial, the 5 mph he's coming up on is the 3rd buoy pair, the 1st pair being the one well off his stern in the distance.

There's nothing in the FWS statement regarding the promotion of safe and enjoyable recreational boating within the NWS --- it's all about the birds, beasts and fish and the observation of same.

There can be zero doubt that SRice's superiors have gotten their collective dicks (metaphorically speaking ) stepped on and are hell bent on proving the validity of their actions and intentions.

In no way do I blame SRice, he's been tasked with a job and as a good employee will perform it. Warnings or tickets, no matter in the big picture, it's all a numbers game and we can all rest assured, next time FWS / NWR comes to town, they will be well armed with reams of statistics. :grumble:

 

[SRice]

Mr Rice, thank you for your responses. I thank you and your staff for your service and conservation efforts!

I was hoping a mission statement would help me better understand your efforts of educating boaters, safety or enforcement. Maybe I missed it.

My last question, what do you or your agency hope to improve with the boaters by mailing citations or warnings?

View attachment 496858

If you compare the mission statement of the three big Department of the Interior agencies (Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, and Fish and Wildlife Service- Forest Service is actually Dept of Agriculture but probably similar) you'll find all three have some variation on "protect the resource for the benefit of the people" but each emphasizes the relative importance of those two components a little differently. BLM and Forest Service are the most permissive though if areas are designated Wilderness by Congress or contain critical endangered species habitat, far stricter secondary regulations are applied. Each of these particular mission statements is a short philosophic statement based on much longer legal language in the agency's enabling legislation passed by Congress. For NPS the so called "Organic Act" is the enabling legislation. FWS has the Refuge Improvement Act but also the Lacey Act, Migratory Bird Protection Act, Endangered Species Act and many others which define our core role. These make it clear that wildlife conservation is our primary responsibility and recreation according to Congress is a secondary mission as long as it remains compatible with wildlife conservation. Hence the legal requirement to periodically complete compatibility determinations such as the boating CD from this spring. Yes, I know this explanation of my agency's priorities is not going to be popular- try to remember Congress wrote the law, not me and don't shoot the messenger (also cut me a little slack if some arm chair lawyer finds any tiny mistakes in what I'm explaining- I do not regularly work with these laws other than our 50 CFR regulations). Wildlife Refuges were typically established to protect the critical last remnants of important habitat. In the case of Havasu, when The dams were installed on the lower Colorado River they flooded vast amounts of the riparian and backwater habitat critically important to waterfowl and especially birds like the endangered Ridgeways rail which is only found here. In the mid 1940s Congress agreed Okay, if we're going to flood and destroy most of that area as wildlife habitat, we will protect what remains with wildlife refuges at Havasu, Cibola,and Imperial. Originally Havasu NWR was much bigger and included the lake and part of town (I don't know exact boundaries from that time myself) but we did land swaps with BLM, State Trust, and others which added the bighorn sheep habitat of the Needles Mountains to us and eventually gave the Lake and now city of Havasu to other agencies. A couple decades later and LHC was born.i think you need to keep that history and Congressional intent in mind as you read the national mission statement of FWS.

As far as the intent of warnings and tickets, the intent is always to deter or modify behavior which is prohibited by law. A warning letter serves the same purpose on an individual level that those regulatory buoys were intended to serve at a population level- educating visitors of what the regulations are and, since they have already violated those regulations, reminding them that there could be consequences to continuing to violate regulations. We also have a locals file database with the names of folks who have been warned or cited and this allows us to appropriately increase our response from warning, to ticket, to mandatory appearance ticket, to ban, to arrest if that escalation is required by repeat violations. I had a guy earlier this week who committed a felony by fleeing from me six months ago and part of his plea included a ban from the refuge. I found him at Mesquite and now he's looking at up to six months (but probably a lot less) jail time for that violation of probation- we need a database so that any officer could recognize and address the repeat violation.

 

[sirbob]

What I mean is this pic shows a long lens shot that does not accurately show the distance to the marker from the boat - is he approaching the no wake zone? The markers in the background look to me like they are marking a no wake zone lateral to the direction of the boat.

To me the markers in the back ground start the no wake channel. Looks like the boater from Texas cut thru the lane to get in the no wake chanel. Maybe if the boat hit the marker next to him it would be more clear.

I'm also not sure if the brownish color change almost directly in front of him is a sandbar or something out of focus in the foreground.

I don't know for sure where the 1st 5 mph buoy starts, but if you check out an aerial, the 5 mph he's coming up on is the 3rd buoy pair, the 1st pair being the one well off his stern in the distance.

So we are in agreement - based on this picture we can't tell what we are looking at - we all seem to see it differently.


Regarding the brownish color change in the foreground...

I see that as foliage in front of the long lens camera that is hidden out of plain site in an effort to avoid being seen so as to best entrap the passing boaters.

 

[throttle]

Biggest issue with that mission statement; Nothing is stated about continuing to allow recreational usage to these areas. I think the mission statement needs to be modified to include that verbiage.
Also, I think we have to many agencies patrolling Havasu (Needles Bridge to the Springs), with varying laws and we need consistency on the laws and enforcement practices.

I don't think anything needs to be changed with their mission statement. I think he should go back to watching birds and fish.

 

[Bobby V]

So we are in agreement - based on this picture we can't tell what we are looking at - we all seem to see it differently.


Regarding the brownish color change in the foreground...

I see that as foliage in front of the long lens camera that is hidden out of plain site in an effort to avoid being seen so as to best entrap the passing boaters.

It is not clear what the buoys in the back ground are for. But it is clear the buoy to the port side of the boat says "No Wake". Even if the boat is 50' behind the buoy they are still going to blow past the no wake zone buoy at that speed. This I'm sure we can agree on.

 

[sirbob]

It is not clear what the buoys in the back ground are for. But it is clear the buoy to the port side of the boat says "No Wake". Even if the boat is 50' behind the buoy they are still going to blow past the no wake zone buoy at that speed. This I'm sure we can agree on.

I understand what you think you see and If 50' is accurate - you may be right.

Assuming you are correct and he is going to blow through the no wake area - is it legal to give a ticket for something that somebody is GOING to do but hasn't done yet?


But what I know for sure is with a long range telephoto lens distances are severely distorted - and I really don't know or am I able to estimate the distance between the boat and the buoy in the foreground.

 

[Bobby V]

I did not have any opportunity to stop this boat or the others we are discussing. If I could have stopped him then and there I would have done so. everybody We would then have completed a vessel safety inspection and looked for any indication that he was impaired as we do with we contact in real time. I do believe though that even a week later this individual will learn some lesson from getting a ticket in the mail. If not, the next time he is contacted he will likely be given a mandatory appearance citation and explain to the magistrate why he is continuing to operate recklessly. With many of our mandatories (for a wide variety of offenses from OUI to dumping) the magistrate has accepted pleas which include bans from FWS and BLM lands, so incrimentally we are getting rid of some of the chronic offenders.

So part of your "Safety Inspections" is to look for impaired drivers. ?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I understand what you think you see and If 50' is accurate - you may be right.

Assuming you are correct and he is going to blow through the no wake area - is it legal to give a ticket for something that somebody is GOING to do but hasn't done yet?


But what I know for sure is with a long range telephoto lens distances are severely distorted - and I really don't know or am I able to estimate the distance between the boat and the buoy in the foreground.

Exactly why this type of enforcement needs to be clearly posted on the river and can not come from a dude sitting in the bushes with a camera.

 

[Bobby V]

I understand what you think you see and If 50' is accurate - you may be right.

Assuming you are correct and he is going to blow through the no wake area - is it legal to give a ticket for something that somebody is GOING to do but hasn't done yet?


But what I know for sure is with a long range telephoto lens distances are severely distorted - and I really don't know or am I able to estimate the distance between the boat and the buoy in the foreground.

IMO he is already in the no wake zone.

 

[sirbob]

IMO he is already in the no wake zone.

And there is where we see it differently - I'm not saying he isn't in the no wake zone...

I just don't see the pic as indisputable evidence that he is and would hold up in court.

To use your own words stated earlier - "it is not clear"

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

And there is wear we see it differently - I'm not saying he isn't in the no wake zone...

I just don't see the pic as indisputable evidence that he is and would hold up in court.

To use your own words started earlier - "it's not clear"

Winner!

 

[sirbob]

Question for you. SRice posted just 1 pic. If this was going to go to court. Do you think they would show up with just this pic or the whole timeline of this incident. My guess would be that a good lawyer would be asking these questions BEFORE he goes into the court room.

Some how I liked your post - I did not do that on purpose. If I knew how to remove I would.

Regarding your post - in my very first response on this issue I asked "is that all you got?" I have already asked the question yon are bringing up now.

My personal experience with photo tickets has been that they don't show up with a "whole timeline of the incident" - the pic is all they got and they are often overturned because of that.

 

[Bobby V]

Some how I liked your post - I did not do that on purpose. If I knew how to remove I would.

Regarding your post - in my very first response on this issue I asked "is that all you got?" I have already asked the question yon are bringing up now.

My personal experience with photo tickets has been that they don't show up with a "whole timeline of the incident" - the pic is all they got and they are often overturned because of that.

There is a "remove thanks" button on the right hand side. Unless you are on Tapatalk. If so that would explain the reason you can't see how close the boat is to the "NO WAKE" buoy. :skull

 

[sirbob]

There is a "remove thanks" button on the right hand side. Unless you are on Tapatalk. If so that would explain the reason you can't see how close the boat is to the "NO WAKE" buoy. :skull

I am on TT - thank you for the tip on the remove button...

Not sure what that has to do with not being able to accurately ascertain the distorted distance between 2 objects when viewed through a long range telephoto lens.

 

[Bobby V]

I am on TT - thank you for the tip on the remove button...

I deleted my post so your "thanks" has been removed.

 

[sirbob]

I deleted my post so your "thanks" has been removed.

You didn't have to go that far [emoji12]

It's a beautiful day out - I'm signing off for a while - let's not let the day get away from us, I'm going to get out and enjoy it !

[emoji1360]

 

[SRice]

So part of your "Safety Inspections" is to look for impaired drivers. ?

Absolutely.

Also, I have a burst of photos which would establish to the satisfaction of any reasonable observer that this boat did in fact blow this wakeless zone and that the violation did not stop at the zone boundary.

 

[Ziggy]

Absolutely.

Also, I have a burst of photos which would establish to the satisfaction of any reasonable observer that this boat did in fact blow this wakeless zone and that the violation did not stop at the zone boundary.

:thumbsup
I figured you guys to have a series of photos for each violation and not just the one mailed to your new "customer"

 

[milkmoney]

24 pages and u assclowns are still at it.

SRice- assclown is a term for all members including me. Kinda like motherfucker that Rivermobster uses. So guess u pooped ur cherry and now u belong in the category of the assclown club. [emoji41][emoji12][emoji202]

 

[Ziggy]

24 pages and u assclowns are still at it.

SRice- assclown is a term for all members including me. Kinda like motherfucker that Rivermobster uses. So guess u pooped ur cherry and now u belong in the category of the assclown club. [emoji41][emoji12][emoji202]

You're such an elephant penisoint:smackhead.............

 

[milkmoney]

You're such an elephant penisoint:smackhead.............

No I prefer dork. [emoji202]

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

Train wreck thread....

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

No I prefer dork. [emoji202]

U prefer dorks over teets....noted.

 

[milkmoney]

U prefer dorks over teets....noted.

Good god hoots. Keep up. Lol. [emoji202][emoji41]

 

[Ziggy]

No I prefer dork. [emoji202]

You got it...I'll even capitalize it for you. Dork.:cool

 

[milkmoney]

You got it...I'll even capitalize it for you. Dork.:cool

I knew that would make u feel better [emoji106][emoji202]

 

[Ziggy]

U prefer dorks over teets....noted.

BNAG!

 

[GRADS]

48 pages?:yikes Can someone summarize this thread in a couple sentences for me?

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

48 pages?:yikes Can someone summarize this thread in a couple sentences for me?

River thugs be all up in arms cuz the popo trying to do his job on the water that's all. It's the start of the new BLM movement.......Boaters Lives Matter.

 

[SRice]

24 pages and u assclowns are still at it.

SRice- assclown is a term for all members including me. Kinda like motherfucker that Rivermobster uses. So guess u pooped ur cherry and now u belong in the category of the assclown club. [emoji41][emoji12][emoji202]

Gee, thanks!

 

[AZRiverRunner]

Forgive me if this was already brought up in this thread... The no wake zone that, when going down river, begins 200 yards above the train bridge/I-40, and continues to below the overhead gas lines isn't marked properly.

Coming down river, there's the first set of buoys, then another set just south of the I-40 bridge. Newbys think that's the end of the no-wake zone because from there, you can't see the 3rd set of buoys that are around the turn and below the overhead gas lines.

I made that mistake the first time through there, and see it a lot now(boats taking off south of the I-40 Bridge).

 

[Bigbore500r]

:thumbsup
I figured you guys to have a series of photos for each violation and not just the one mailed to your new "customer"

Are they mailing the photo with the warning or ticket? The warning my friend received was only the letter / warning. No photo included

 

[Ziggy]

Are they mailing the photo with the warning or ticket? The warning my friend received was only the letter / warning. No photo included

Don't know, just assuming it was being done like the red light camera tickets.:headscratch:

 

[SRice]

Forgive me if this was already brought up in this thread... The no wake zone that, when going down river, begins 200 yards above the train bridge/I-40, and continues to below the overhead gas lines isn't marked properly.

Coming down river, there's the first set of buoys, then another set just south of the I-40 bridge. Newbys think that's the end of the no-wake zone because from there, you can't see the 3rd set of buoys that are around the turn and below the overhead gas lines.

I made that mistake the first time through there, and see it a lot now.

I agree that is confusing and I have also raised that question with our staff. Unfortunately,FWS is responsible for the no camping/fires/skiing buoys in the middle and Lake Havasu Marine Association (I believe) is responsible for the north and south no wake buoys. The other perhaps bigger problem is that there is a
Limit to how much info can go on a buoy and still be read by a passing boater. I have yet to hear or come up with a better idea (I did suggest we hang our info on signs overhead, but that idea didn't get any traction), but happy to forward a suggestion if you have a good fix. Perhaps LHMA could add "next 1/4 mile" to their buoys? Right now the expectation is just that boaters read every regulatory buoy they pass and follow its guidance, but I would like to make this easier for newbies to comply. Thx.

 

[SRice]

Are they mailing the photo with the warning or ticket? The warning my friend received was only the letter / warning. No photo included

I've generally included a photo with citations but not with warnings. Perhaps every time with tickets, but I won't swear to it. The legal requirement would be that between an initial appearance and trial a suspect is entitled to receive complete disclosure of the government's case. I have also gotten calls from people regarding warnings and generally offered them a photo if they call, but I'm not routinely taking that additional step unless they object to the warning.

 

[outboardrick]

Forgive me if this was already brought up in this thread... The no wake zone that, when going down river, begins 200 yards above the train bridge/I-40, and continues to below the overhead gas lines isn't marked properly.

Coming down river, there's the first set of buoys, then another set just south of the I-40 bridge. Newbys think that's the end of the no-wake zone because from there, you can't see the 3rd set of buoys that are around the turn and below the overhead gas lines.

I made that mistake the first time through there, and see it a lot now.

I went to Topock for breakfast early Friday morning. While sitting and having breakfast I probably saw 10 boats go through the no wake zone outside of the marina (remember it was early, about 8am) and out of those 10 boats, probably 8 went through half on plane. It's our responsibility as boaters to obey the laws, even if we find it inconvenient. It really irritates me when people think they can't be bothered or that they're too special to have common courtesy :grumble:

 

[Bigbore500r]

I went to Topock for breakfast early Friday morning. While sitting and having breakfast I probably saw 10 boats go through the no wake zone outside of the marina (remember it was early, about 8am) and out of those 10 boats, probably 8 went through half on plane. It's our responsibility as boaters to obey the laws, even if we find it inconvenient. It really irritates me when people think they can't be bothered or that they're too special to have common courtesy :grumble:

And if u say anything to them you are met with the 1-finger salute. That's the problem....and these idiots are gonna ruin it for the rest of us

 

[Stainless]

River thugs be all up in arms cuz the popo trying to do his job on the water that's all. It's the start of the new BLM movement.......Boaters Lives Matter.

[emoji23]

 

[spectra3279]

effort to avoid being seen so as to best entrap the passing boaters.

You just said the magic word......entrap.

You know entrapment is illegal

 

[SRice]

You just said the magic word......entrap.

You know entrapment is illegal

C'mon. Entrapment is when a cop talks somebody into breaking a law they would not have otherwise broken. It has zero relevance to this situation. The only guys who could potentially attempt an entrapment defense are the guys I contact in plainclothes who solicit sex in the bushes from me, and I follow very clear guidance from my prosecutor on how to legally walk that line. I'll assume you're not one of the folks I've met coming from the adult bookstore.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/entrapment

 

[spectra3279]

You are the one that said it. Not me

 

[Hullbilly]

You are the one that said it. Not me

So the camera induces boaters to create a wake in a no wake zone that they normally would not create a wake in? Basically the camera is compelling boaters to create a wake....lol

 

[spectra3279]

Hey he actually stated entrap.

 

[Hullbilly]

That was why I was being a smartass, hence the lol....I'll just stick to the to signify my facetiouness!

 

[SRice]

You are the one that said it. Not me

I said it? I see you in post #490 quoting sirbob in post #454.

 

[spectra3279]

Your right. My bad. I scrolled to far I guess

 

[Taboma]

I agree that is confusing and I have also raised that question with our staff. Unfortunately,FWS is responsible for the no camping/fires/skiing buoys in the middle and Lake Havasu Marine Association (I believe) is responsible for the north and south no wake buoys. The other perhaps bigger problem is that there is a
Limit to how much info can go on a buoy and still be read by a passing boater. I have yet to hear or come up with a better idea (I did suggest we hang our info on signs overhead, but that idea didn't get any traction), but happy to forward a suggestion if you have a good fix. Perhaps LHMA could add "next 1/4 mile" to their buoys? Right now the expectation is just that boaters read every regulatory buoy they pass and follow its guidance, but I would like to make this easier for newbies to comply. Thx.

If the Lake Havasu Marine Association is responsible for the north and south No Wake Zone buoys (as you stated in the quote), does this mean they are responsible for establishing those zones ?

I realize they created (by dredging) the channel at the river entrance from the lake. That's one zone and due to the nature of the channel it may have been required as part of the approval.

The other two zones would be at Devils Elbow and the Topock / I-40 bridge area. Are they responsible for establishing those zones ?

 

[SRice]

If the Lake Havasu Marine Association is responsible for the north and south No Wake Zone buoys (as you stated in the quote), does this mean they are responsible for establishing those zones ?

I realize they created (by dredging) the channel at the river entrance from the lake. That's one zone and due to the nature of the channel it may have been required as part of the approval.

The other two zones would be at Devils Elbow and the Topock / I-40 bridge area. Are they responsible for establishing those zones ?

That stuff had all been worked out before I got here and I don't know the answers for sure. I believe FWS was responsible for creation of the Devils Elbow no wake and FWS does maintain those buoys and buoys at entry to backwaters. Pretty sure LHMA maintains both I40 and CA side mouth of the river (definitely not maintained by FWS) and that they requested those through AZGFD. Jim Salscheider with LHMA would be the best person to answer this question definitively. I think RDP member TwoCents might also know the full history.

 

[rivermobster]

I agree that is confusing and I have also raised that question with our staff. Unfortunately,FWS is responsible for the no camping/fires/skiing buoys in the middle and Lake Havasu Marine Association (I believe) is responsible for the north and south no wake buoys. The other perhaps bigger problem is that there is a
Limit to how much info can go on a buoy and still be read by a passing boater. I have yet to hear or come up with a better idea (I did suggest we hang our info on signs overhead, but that idea didn't get any traction), but happy to forward a suggestion if you have a good fix. Perhaps LHMA could add "next 1/4 mile" to their buoys? Right now the expectation is just that boaters read every regulatory buoy they pass and follow its guidance, but I would like to make this easier for newbies to comply. Thx.

It's hard to get Any info across to the once or twice a year weekend douche boaters. They don't have time to read, just time to get drunk and cause problems!

But making new threads on here, educating us to what's up, and what's going on in the background, would really help those of us that care.

👍