Big brother is watching....from somewhere near the I40 bridge in Topock

[MOUZER]

they keep your cf number in there data and you get pulled over for it again it shows you were warned by email instant fine:eek

 

[Racey]

That stuff had all been worked out before I got here and I don't know the answers for sure. I believe FWS was responsible for creation of the Devils Elbow no wake and FWS does maintain those buoys and buoys at entry to backwaters. Pretty sure LHMA maintains both I40 and CA side mouth of the river (definitely not maintained by FWS) and that they requested those through AZGFD. Jim Salscheider with LHMA would be the best person to answer this question definitively. I think RDP member TwoCents might also know the full history.

Typical government bureaucracy, no one is certain which agencies are responsible for the infrastructure, or who to address questions and concerns to for a definitive answer, But none of them seem to have any problem when it comes time to dole out citations and where the money gets sent to

This isn't directed to you personally SRice, just the system as a whole. I'm sure you know this more than most seeing it first hand from the inside.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

Typical government bureaucracy, no one is certain which agencies are responsible for the infrastructure, or who to address questions and concerns to for a definitive answer, But none of them seem to have any problem when it comes time to dole out citations and where the money gets sent to

This isn't directed to you personally SRice, just the system as a whole. I'm sure you know this more than most seeing it first hand from the inside.

Bingo ! Why do you think all these riots and protests are taking place all over the country ? People are SICK of the harassment and hyper-enforcement of the smallest probable cause for a pull over , then some f'ing minor infraction written up and a nice hefty fine paid to some F'ing bureaucratic agency . A $500 ticket for a drain plug left in ? Come on ...
The biggest joke is the picture of the ranger / fish and game boat breaking the law by creating a wake , he'll probably be given a talking to by his superior , then a promotion ...
Ok , rant over ...

 

[RiverDave]

48 pages?:yikes Can someone summarize this thread in a couple sentences for me?

People are suspicious of federal government in the modern era. A employee of the government has come on to try ad educate and offer a few personal opinions. Some people have responded negatively, some are listening, others are doing their carnival act which is starting to irritate me.

I agree that is confusing and I have also raised that question with our staff. Unfortunately,FWS is responsible for the no camping/fires/skiing buoys in the middle and Lake Havasu Marine Association (I believe) is responsible for the north and south no wake buoys. The other perhaps bigger problem is that there is a
Limit to how much info can go on a buoy and still be read by a passing boater. I have yet to hear or come up with a better idea (I did suggest we hang our info on signs overhead, but that idea didn't get any traction), but happy to forward a suggestion if you have a good fix. Perhaps LHMA could add "next 1/4 mile" to their buoys? Right now the expectation is just that boaters read every regulatory buoy they pass and follow its guidance, but I would like to make this easier for newbies to comply. Thx.

Did the no wake zone by Topock get larger recently? Because now the southern one is below that White House around the corner? Used to be further up by the bridge I thought?

C'mon. Entrapment is when a cop talks somebody into breaking a law they would not have otherwise broken. It has zero relevance to this situation. The only guys who could potentially attempt an entrapment defense are the guys I contact in plainclothes who solicit sex in the bushes from me, and I follow very clear guidance from my prosecutor on how to legally walk that line. I'll assume you're not one of the folks I've met coming from the adult bookstore.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/entrapment

Did you just say other men solicit you for sex in the bushes? WTF is going on up there??

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Did you just say other men solicit you for sex in the bushes? WTF is going on up there??

Ya really. I didn't think GRADS has been to Havasu?

 

[t&y]

Damn this thing is still going:eek

Well then I'd like to take the time to personally THANK SRice for sticking it out. Welcome to the RDP crowd, and stand by for nonsense now that everyone knows what you do. It's great that you are taking the time to offer the perspective your agency on the matters brought up in here. Ignore the usual drama... AND STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE BUSHES IN PLAIN CLOTHES:skull

 

[SRice]

Typical government bureaucracy, no one is certain which agencies are responsible for the infrastructure, or who to address questions and concerns to for a definitive answer, But none of them seem to have any problem when it comes time to dole out citations and where the money gets sent to

This isn't directed to you personally SRice, just the system as a whole. I'm sure you know this more than most seeing it first hand from the inside.

In this case the issue is more that there are multiple bureaucracies involved. We have three Federal agencies (FWS, BLM, BOR), Coast Guard on occasion, two county sheriffs (SBCSO and MCSO), AZGFD plus non governmental entities like LHMA. Probably forgetting a few. Let me give you another example. The only way I learned of the two accidents on the water over 4th of July Weekend (above the gorge and mouth of the river) was from you all on this forum. MCSO did not inform us nor did the tow companies (who are required under the terms of their special use permit to notify us of accidents >$50 property damage). The tow companies I could at least send a letter reminding them of their obligations, but the breakdown in information sharing caused by so many agencies working the same geographic area is frustrating to me as well.

 

[SRice]

People are suspicious of federal government in the modern era. A employee of the government has come on to try ad educate and offer a few personal opinions. Some people have responded negatively, some are listening, others are doing their carnival act which is starting to irritate me.



Did the no wake zone by Topock get larger recently? Because now the southern one is below that White House around the corner? Used to be further up by the bridge I thought?

Not to my knowledge though the buoys occasionally drag anchor and float downstream until they can be dragged back into position.

Did you just say other men solicit you for sex in the bushes? WTF is going on up there??

Yes. We are uncomfortably close to the adult bookstore and that apparently makes us a destination for "cruisers" as well as the junkies smoking meth and kids having sex in their parked cars. Every season has its own unique issues here at Havasu.

 

[RiverDave]

Did that NWZ increase in size recently?

 

[Bigbore500r]

I'm glad SRice has joined and is willing to share some info, and I would say "dont shoot the messenger" is the situation here. He seems to be loosening up...not many would talk about escapades in bushes with other men soliciting sex - Welcome to RDP lol. We're not gonna get input from guys on the "other side" very often, so I would welcome the knowledge and try to get some understanding of WHY his agency is doing what they do, how they perceive us, and perhaps we can educate each other and get on a level playing field and see eye to eye on some stuff.

SRice - It does seem that your view of Havasu and the river is that it is the "wild west" and needs to be tamed. Perhaps you just need to settle in and get comfortable in your surroundings a bit? We boat here with the family and have done so for the last 10 years, and love it more than anywhere else. Yea it's busy but with discretion and common sense I am comfortable taking my family pretty much anywhere out there.

I originally posted this because the warning letters were something we had never seen before, and yea it was disturbing to find out that there are cameras hidden in bushes, apparently at more than one location along the river for enforcement of no wake zones, and other basic boating laws. The glass bottle one was a new one to me.....obviously its good practice to NOT have them, but I didn't know it was illegal. I'm guessing just in this protected wildlife area?

Is a friendly warning better than a out and out citation ? Yes. But is it also building a "file" against you CF number for future reference? Most likely yes..

I think the big problem why this went over like a fart in church, is that nobody was notified this was going to be done and it blind sided us. The timing of when this started coincided with the controversial draft proposal, and that made it even more suspect and made me think "why did this start....well....to build a case against "us" to back the closure of the area of course"... I think many others took it this way as well. I'm still not 100% convinced this campaign wasn't related, but if it is merely a way to police the waterways with limited resources then it more understandable (everyone is using technology to make their jobs easier and more efficient these days).

I obey no wake zones, and I can drink beverages from plastic or aluminum and it wont ruin my day. But I'd like to see greater transparency on stuff like this. Don't red light cameras have a sign usually that says "photo enforcement" or the like? I know anything in public view can be legally photographed without notice or consent, but it's kinda like you neighbors wife sunbathing on his deck - You can see it, but if you take a picture of it without giving notice that's considered an asshole move :rolleyes

Rant over - Carry on :thumbsup

 

[t&y]

Did that NWZ increase in size recently?

I don't think it has Dave. I'm not a regular on the lake by any means, but at least for the last three years, the south side bouy's have always been south of the high pressure white pipes past the house on north side of the river around the turn.

 

[hallett21]

Yes. We are uncomfortably close to the adult bookstore and that apparently makes us a destination for "cruisers" as well as the junkies smoking meth and kids having sex in their parked cars. Every season has its own unique issues here at Havasu.

eek:eek

Thank you for the humor. Holy shit you better start putting your uniform on at home :rotflmao:

 

[SBMech]

SRice,

Nice to see you have loosened up a bit, welcome to RDP :thumbsup

If you don't mind, can you give us the details of the agency that actually closed the cove and why they feel that they can just break protocol for 1 single person?

All this patty cake does not excuse the fact that some agency broke agreed upon protocol and closed that cove illegally.

If it was the FWS why have you not removed the buoys and restored peace to the river?

I appreciate your efforts to understand where we are coming from, but this is something that still needs addressing.

 

[Havdesert]

SRice,

Nice to see you have loosened up a bit, welcome to RDP :thumbsup

If you don't mind, can you give us the details of the agency that actually closed the cove and why they feel that they can just break protocol for 1 single person?

All this patty cake does not excuse the fact that some agency broke agreed upon protocol and closed that cove illegally.

If it was the FWS why have you not removed the buoys and restored peace to the river?

I appreciate your efforts to understand where we are coming from, but this is something that still needs addressing.

He and they won't address it they hide from all their illegal restrictions. Sounds harsh. But it's the truth just google search the USFW.

 

[SRice]

SRice,

Nice to see you have loosened up a bit, welcome to RDP :thumbsup

If you don't mind, can you give us the details of the agency that actually closed the cove and why they feel that they can just break protocol for 1 single person?

All this patty cake does not excuse the fact that some agency broke agreed upon protocol and closed that cove illegally.

If it was the FWS why have you not removed the buoys and restored peace to the river?

I appreciate your efforts to understand where we are coming from, but this is something that still needs addressing.

Alright, I will try but I already know this is gonna stir things up again and frankly I have a very superficial knowledge of the NEPA process. You will also have to forgive me if I make any errors in trying to explain something that is outside of my first hand knowledge. However, since you asked...For starters, FWS is solely responsible for the 1/2 mile extension of the Speed Alley restrictions. Most folks asking this question or questions like it are referring to the fact the public commenrt is required if an issue is "controversial"- and both the Speed Alley restrictions and CD certainly proved to be controversial. However, the law actually calls for public comment if a change is going to be "environmentally controversial" and according to the policy folks I work with this is quite different. As I understand it, "environmentally controversial" means there are competing opinions about what is the best action to protect the resource. I am told that concern over recreation etc is NOT what the law is referring to as "controversial" when read in its entirety. You have to remember that the Refuge Improvement Act and other Federal laws which govern this agency are unambiguous- National Wildlife Refuges exist to protect wildlife habitat. Any other human activity is secondary under the Federal law which established this Refuge, and it must be found to be compatable with habitat protection. So there you go. Nobody in my chain of command considers the Speed Alley restrictions to be illegal or improper and nobody feels any legal obligation to reverse those restrictions. That is why when folks insist that the restrictions are illegal, I have to respond that when parties have differing opinions of legal matters it is pointless to just scream "That's illegal!" We have a system in place where you go to Court where a judge considers the law and arguments from both sides and then decides on the legality or Constituionality of an issue. Plus if you hire a lawyer, you probably get much better info than what I have to offer. Lastly, bear in mind that the CD and last year's restrictions at Speed Alley are separate. The Speed Alley decision was based on both the initial human safety concerns and on secondary wildlife considerations. Where a manager believes there are safety concerns they actually have other authority to restrict activity, but I can't tell you (because I don't know) where to find those.

 

[t&y]

Ahhh shit... here we go:grumble:

 

[SRice]

Ahhh shit... here we go:grumble:

Yeah, I know- but he asked and I did my best to answer. Can't believe it's been two hours since I wrote that with no reply...If this forum explodes in the next few hours and I don't respond, it's because I have a date with a a surgeon and a lot of Percocet tomorrow.

 

[t&y]

Yeah, I know- but he asked and I did my best to answer. Can't believe it's been two hours since I wrote that with no reply...If this forum explodes in the next few hours and I don't respond, it's because I have a date with a a surgeon and a lot of Percocet tomorrow.

Nope, not going to accept that. If you don't condemn the actions of your department and grab a pitch fork your words will not be accepted.:skull

Good luck with the surgery. Hopefully it's not too invasive. Been there from work related injury already and now I'm in better overall shape now than before the injury. Had to change the way I do things starting with not trying to bench press 400 lbs... but you can make the necessary adjustments and still remain more than fit for duty.:thumbsup

 

[rivermobster]

Yeah, I know- but he asked and I did my best to answer. Can't believe it's been two hours since I wrote that with no reply...If this forum explodes in the next few hours and I don't respond, it's because I have a date with a a surgeon and a lot of Percocet tomorrow.

Best of luck. 👍

 

[alexJ]

when folks like A[hislastname] insist that the restrictions are illegal, I have to respond that when parties have differing opinions of legal matters it is pointless to just scream "That's illegal!"

Thanks for calling me out sRice- specifically me, and thank you for publicly sharing my last name- which I didn't realize I had done on RiverDaves; I mean my username is AlexJ, I guess you just wanted to confirm there really is a target on me and my boat?

While I obviously side with anyone against your agency's agenda, and their statements- even if they call the closures illegal, I actually (to quote you) have never "insisted that the restrictions were illegal" or ever just screamed "that's illegal." Not once, not in a meeting, not on social media- I mean I spend over 4 minutes of video talking about what a ridiculous, unjustified, stupid move the closure was, but didn't once call it illegal. I'm not a lawyer- I don't know the laws, so I don't need to speak on them; a child could look at the situation logically and figure it out with or without laws involved. What I am guilty of is calling the USFWS' people responsible for making the decision liars and boneheads, sorry. Hope your surgery went well.

 

[Hallett Dave]

The proposed Colorado river restrictions are no more than Federal take over.

Does anyone remember Senator Dianne Feinstein's California Desert Protection Act legislation.

I damn sure do!

Ms. Frankenstein promised that there would be no limitations to access. Bull Shit!!!!

There are places that I and other seniors don't have vehicle access to that I would like to revisit when I was a kid growing up at Edwards AFB.

The DoD, R-2508 Complex does not and will not honor the expanded boundary of Death Valley National Park. The DoD honors the boundary of the old Death Valley National Monument, period.

I'm an old Air Traffic Controller and an Airspace Manager for R-2508 Complex ready to retire with 32 years of service, March 2017.

I don't know what it will take to block this Federal push to take over this beautiful section of the River.

Can you imagine a no wake zone from the Gorge all the way to Big Bend State Park?

Boater Lively Hoods matter.

Boat responsibly my friends.

HD

 

[SRice]

Thanks for calling me out sRice- specifically me, and thank you for publicly sharing my last name- which I didn't realize I had done on RiverDaves; I mean my username is AlexJ, I guess you just wanted to confirm there really is a target on me and my boat?

While I obviously side with anyone against your agency's agenda, and their statements- even if they call the closures illegal, I actually (to quote you) have never "insisted that the restrictions were illegal" or ever just screamed "that's illegal." Not once, not in a meeting, not on social media- I mean I spend over 4 minutes of video talking about what a ridiculous, unjustified, stupid move the closure was, but didn't once call it illegal. I'm not a lawyer- I don't know the laws, so I don't need to speak on them; a child could look at the situation logically and figure it out with or without laws involved. What I am guilty of is calling the USFWS' people responsible for making the decision liars and boneheads, sorry. Hope your surgery went well.

I apologize for accidentally mangling your username, though I've been called worse in this thread (I'm talking to you, RiverMobster)... I edited it out of my original post. Thanks for your final comment.

 

[rivermobster]

I apologize for accidentally mangling your username, though I've been called worse in this thread (I'm talking to you, RiverMobster)... I edited it out of my original post. Thanks for your final comment.

Well I hope you know now I was just messing with you.

You have to have thick skin to hang around here, but it's mostly just having fun and messing around. Well, for the majority of us anyway. There are always those few that wanna take it too far. :rolleyes

Even though it's closed now, look forward to showing you and your son around Parker some day. We roll a bit differently south of the dam...