A.O.C Healthcare is a "right"

[squeezer]

So it’s about free shit, and you go full drama on letting people die....Good liberal tactics junior.


Are you in the healthcare field or just another self appointed RDP know it all?

It’s not about free shit, it’s about expensive shit... Very expensive shit that I have to pay for in the most inefficient way possible.

And one does not have to be in the healthcare field to do math...

 

[Uncle Dave]

Im a cancer patient - I know we have better healthcare.

I had access to the latest technology and services nearly immediately when I had an issue.

My Canadian counterparts pay mandatory out of their paycheck and then buy private insurance on top to get access to technology.

An antibiotic they can get easy - and MRI they wait for months.

that system doesnt work.

UD

 

[was thatguy]

Get back on track -

So you agree with AOC its a right? vs a service?

Emergency care is one aspect -

Long term care and access to technology like MRI machines for say cancer patients and expensive drugs are the other pieces of that.

To what extent do you feel others should be obligated to provide these services?

Where does it stop in your scenario?

My guess would be about the point where he gets a noticeable hit in his own wallet.

 

[Hullbilly]

What squegee in his sheltered little life has yet to realize is this world is not fair. It never has been it never will be.

Plain and simple it is not fair for me or anyone else to be obligated to provide for another human.

The reality is, if you can not pay for, barter or trade for a good or service you are not entitled to said good or service.

 

[Hullbilly]

It’s not about free shit, it’s about expensive shit... Very expensive shit that I have to pay for in the most inefficient way possible.

And one does not have to be in the healthcare field to do math...

So you are mad that you have to pay for a service? Mad enough to believe it is my responsibilty to share your burden?

There is much more to healthcare than math there partner, perhaps if you spent some time in the field you’d understand that.

 

[squeezer]

Oh boy, here come the pie charts and graphs. Then the slanted articles based on select stats to meet those articles points.

It's pretty obvious the US has as good or better healthcare situation than the vast majority of the world. So many ways to reach that conclusion when we see how many come to the US from other nations to get superior care. Of those that go elsewhere it's typically because the US doesn't do experimental procedures and medicines as many other nations allow, and folks are desperate to try anything as the well should when terminal or unknown maladies are involved.

But at the end of the day, we get it right far more often than anyone else......Another thing to back this all up, is the number of foreign Drs' that come to the US to get their education and end up staying here in our highly prestigious and technically superior medical centers around the nation. The US more often than not, has the finest and best from around the world in our system. Because our system "is" superior......

Argue away Biff, it's your world, we're just trying to live in it.

I have had some of the best steak in my life in a country where a lot of people go to bed hungry at night... Does that mean things are great?

 

[was thatguy]

Im a cancer patient - I know we have better healthcare.

I had access to the latest technology and services nearly immediately when I had an issue.

My Canadian counterparts pay mandatory out of their paycheck and then buy private insurance on top to get access to technology.

An antibiotic they can get easy - and MRI they wait for months.

that system doenst work.

UD

I haven’t dealt with Canadian HC, but I’ve certainly been through the cancer maze here. There was never any delays or waits or frustrating scheduling, not once I got her out of the sticks.
It may exist, but I’d have a real hard time believing better treatment exists outside our Country.
I’m sure better ways can be created to satisfy costs and responsibility, but to condemn our system and put it in the backs of “doctors don’t care” is ludicrous.

 

[Hullbilly]

I have had some of the best steak in my life in a country where a lot of people go to bed hungry at night... Does that mean things are great?

Yes....once again life is NOT fair. you could have shared that steak, but YOU chose not too

 

[was thatguy]

I have had some of the best steak in my life in a country where a lot of people go to bed hungry at night... Does that mean things are great?

The USA?

 

[squeezer]

So you are mad that you have to pay for a service? Mad enough to believe it is my responsibilty to share your burden?

Wrong assumption and wrong question...

 

[Hullbilly]

View attachment 733576

Wrong assumption and wrong question...

Why is it $750? hmmmmmm


Why didnt you share that steak with the hungry hmmmmmmmm?

I dont think Im wrong squeegee, this directly impacts your life, you are emotional over the issue, so it is prrsonal...keep lying to yourself though if you must

 

[was thatguy]

View attachment 733576

Wrong assumption and wrong question...

Cool....erase the ugly truth and focus on the part you champion.
Did it ever occur to you that the first part dictates the second part?

 

[spectras only]

I was born&raised in a socialist country.We had FREE universal care It was covered by an unknown percentage of your paycheck. Only the elite, actors,government workers and doctors could afford having well known excellent doctors practicing privately. If went to government run hospital for surgery, you were better had a sealed envelope with gratuity, making sure the surgeon will do his/her best.
If you visited medical centers, they were always filled to the walls with people and waiting times were usually half a day to see a doc.
Our CHEAP Canadian healthcare sux too, but don't tell anyone I said itgetting an appointment for MRI usually takes three months, elected surgery 6-8 months if you lucky. Have at it if you admire our socialistic system boys.

 

[Old Texan]

This is really pretty simple folks...

Ask yourself a few questions:

First, are You willing to let people die in Emergency room parking lots.

Yes or No .... ????

If Yes, then this conversation is over.

If No then here is the next question...

Who pays for that care now?

This one is open to some discussion but I bet we could all agree that whatever formulas, ratios of taxes to private plans, etc, etc that we’re thrown out there the ultimate answer would be WE DO.

If you can agree to that point we can move on to the next question.

Are we getting good value for the $$$ spent?

Now is where opinions can differ as judging quality and quantity of care depends on chosen metrics with respect to both costs and outcomes.

I suspect that healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP would be easy enough to agree on... If there is a more substantive indicator of costs please suggest what it is and we can refine the conversation.

As far as outcomes as a success metric I suspect, based on posts in the lounge... That many of you only care about the cost of your Viagra prescription and the quality of your 3rd wife’s fake tits. Don’t need Viagra and have not had the opourtunity to examine the quality of all that many of your wives boobs... So unless Dave let’s us start posting better pictures let’s use infant mortality rates and expected lifespan to judge outcomes...

With that to get us started please list all developed countries that spend more $$$ per capita on healthcare than we do.

Wow......Biff, you are a bitter fellow for whatever your reason, it's that obvious.

I guess I'm way out of touch as I haven't seen these folks dying in E-Room parking lots, I see great medical personnel rushing to aid though, worrying about costs later.

Healthcare has become quite politicized and there's the big business factor also involved. Treatments are being played with politically also. Legal issues create costs and redtape that can be removed with common sense in government that is obvious as hell starting with O-Care and now the socialized bullshit. You want to make the US system run efficiently and smooth, tell "your" liberal politicians to stop the game playing. To me that is the place to start......

 

[Hullbilly]

Wow......Biff, you are a bitter fellow for whatever your reason, it's that obvious.

I guess I'm way out of touch as I haven't seen these folks dying in E-Room parking lots, I see great medical personnel rushing to aid though, worrying about costs later.

Healthcare has become quite politicized and there's the big business factor also involved. Treatments are being played with politically also. Legal issues create costs and redtape that can be removed with common sense in government that is obvious as hell starting with O-Care and now the socialized bullshit. You want to make the US system run efficiently and smooth, tell "your" liberal politicians to stop the game playing. To me that is the place to start......

Perhaps if squegee stepped out on his own for once he’d experience the real world....not likely though it’s too scary

 

[Uncle Dave]

I haven’t dealt with Canadian HC, but I’ve certainly been through the cancer maze here. There was never any delays or waits or frustrating scheduling, not once I got her out of the sticks.
It may exist, but I’d have a real hard time believing better treatment exists outside our Country.
I’m sure better ways can be created to satisfy costs and responsibility, but to condemn our system and put it in the backs of “doctors don’t care” is ludicrous.

No where in the world do you get what we have.

We pay to much for it - and there are ways it can be managed better.

but simply trying to say it's my "right" - isn't going to be one of them.

By changing up the issue a bit and saying the "right" is to be able to purchase affordable insurance changes the narrative from "healthcare is a right".

it should be mandatory - everyone has to buy it (because at some point no matter how healthy everyone will need it)
no waivers- sorry Ms Pelosi.
no preexisting conditions (thats bullshit)
Everyone in the country has to have it and pay for - even migrant workers - this reduces the incentive to hire them to begin with.

This would work much better.

UD

 

[squeezer]

What squegee in his sheltered little life has yet to realize is this world is not fair. It never has been it never will be.

Plain and simple it is not fair for me or anyone else to be obligated to provide for another human.

The reality is, if you can not pay for, barter or trade for a good or service you are not entitled to said good or service.

So you open with the time tested “The world is not fair” line and then complain that’s it’s not fair for you have to share...


That’s some complex thinking right there...

 

[Hullbilly]

So you open with the time tested “The world is not fair” line and then complain that’s it’s not fair for you have to share...


That’s some complex thinking right there...

I’m not the one advocating for taxpayers to finance healthcare for those that refuse to fend for themselves.

So do tell, why didnt you share your steak with a hungry person?

 

[squeezer]

No where in the world do you get what we have.

We pay to much for it - and there are ways it can be managed better.

but simply trying to say it's my "right" - isn't going to be one of them.

By changing up the issue a bit and saying the "right" is to be able to purchase affordable insurance changes the narrative from "healthcare is a right".

it should be mandatory - everyone has to buy it (because at some point no matter how healthy everyone will need it)
no waivers- sorry Ms Pelosi.
no preexisting conditions (thats bullshit)
Everyone in the country has to have it and pay for - even migrant workers - this reduces the incentive to hire them to begin with.

This would work much better.

UD

I agree with every word of this.

Now if only there was a proven for everyone in the country to buy health coverage...

 

[Hullbilly]

I agree with every word of this.

Now if only there was a proven for everyone in the country to buy health coverage...

If only...Utopia is within reach squeegee.....just reach a little further you’ll get it

 

[squeezer]

I’m not the one advocating for taxpayers to finance healthcare for those that refuse to fend for themselves.

So do tell, why didnt you share your steak with a hungry person?

Your assumptions betray you... I did not share food off my plate but did ( And Do) hand 20’s out every time when leaving a high end restaurant...

 

[squeezer]

Wow......Biff, you are a bitter fellow for whatever your reason, it's that obvious.

I guess I'm way out of touch as I haven't seen these folks dying in E-Room parking lots, I see great medical personnel rushing to aid though, worrying about costs later.

Healthcare has become quite politicized and there's the big business factor also involved. Treatments are being played with politically also. Legal issues create costs and redtape that can be removed with common sense in government that is obvious as hell starting with O-Care and now the socialized bullshit. You want to make the US system run efficiently and smooth, tell "your" liberal politicians to stop the game playing. To me that is the place to start......

Are you arguing for or against my position OT?

 

[was thatguy]

Your assumptions betray you... I did not share food off my plate but did ( And Do) hand 20’s out every time when leaving a high end restaurant...

Yeah, I’ve eaten steak in Chicago as well.

I’m still waiting for the list of Country’s that you consider “better” for health care.

 

[regor]

Are you willing to actully look at how other countries deliver better results at lower costs or are you just beating a right wing talking point.

Because there are numerous examples of better cost/benefit outcomes if you can do simple math and can read.

 

[Hullbilly]

Your assumptions betray you... I did not share food off my plate but did ( And Do) hand 20’s out every time when leaving a high end restaurant...

I doubt it....

 

[Uncle Dave]

I agree with every word of this.

Now if only there was a proven for everyone in the country to buy health coverage...

We were getting there, but the animals weren't even - party friends all got a special waiver allowing them to skip the bill (and give it to us)

"Obamacare" ACA revisited done better - without waivers, without mandatory forced categorical inclusion (like pregnancy costs for 60 year old men and women)

If done without premeditated lying - like telling people they could keep their plans when it was known that would be impossible - and telling people fantasies like they will be saving "X" K a year.

If you dont pay you get taxed especially if you need service in between.

Then again I'm for taxing people that have kids more Vs giving them more deduction, and forcing more property (school tax) on them and letting single people that chose not to have kids not carry the burden for them.

UD

 

[Hullbilly]

$20 bills don’t feed hungry people, steaks off your plate do!

Having a job pays for healthcare, being a drain on society does not

 

[Old Texan]

Are you arguing for or against my position OT?

I'm sure there's some of both in it. You've got a lot of plates spinning in this thread, and it's a bit hard to follow where you're coming from and heading to.

My bottom line on the whole of the issue, is to get politics out of it. Doing that will get the big pharma lobbies out of it and the legal professionals driving up costs and the insurance industry, not to mention the hospital owners looking at the whole strictly from a profit angle removed or at least neutered in their quest to profit or control things in some way......And on and on.

The current system is broken to a major point, and the politicians and others mentioned, are all fighting for their share of the pie. They are not looking out for the folks that to live with the system, only what benefits them.

So yeah, we are more on the same page than not.....

I do know one thing, the plans being pushed by too many politicians, the socialist leaning types like the Bern and Oscar specifically, want to do away with any ability to buy up better insurance including the ability to access outside "their" proposed systems plans. That is bullshit and not what this nation is about. Their plan and nothing but is wrong and not what he US was founded upon. Pure socialism at it's worst and we ain't gonna accept it period

 

[squeezer]

We were getting there, but the animals weren't even - party friends all got a special waiver allowing them to skip the bill (and give it to us)

"Obamacare" ACA revisited done better - without waivers, without mandatory forced categorical inclusion (like pregnancy costs for 60 year old men and women)

If done without premeditated lying - like telling people they could keep their plans when it was known that would be impossible - and telling people fantasies like they will be saving "X" K a year.

If you dont pay you get taxed especially if you need service in between.

Then again I'm for taxing people that have kids more Vs giving them more deduction, and forcing more property (school tax) on them and letting single people that chose not to have kids not carry the burden for them.

UD

My biggest complaint about President Obama is he put in that weak assed excuse for a healthcare plan... Basic Medicare that anybody can buy in to. Hell don’t even make it mandatory. Just give every person and company in the country the chance to buy in at 60% of the private market ( Because 60% is what Medicare pays compared to private insurance) Heavily focus on health and prevention... And yea there would be a few health insurance companies go bankrupt.

As far as taxing single people less because they don’t have kids...? Last time I checked single people can and do have kids. Chose not to have kids, OK how can you prove you won’t have them next year? My school Levy per given year does not pay for a year of schooling... So it gets spread out.

And I would suggest that if educating kids is a burden you might need to take a look at how much stupid people cost us...

 

[was thatguy]

Still waiting for a list of countries.

 

[squeezer]

I doubt it....

Luckily enough my generosity is independent of your doubt.

 

[Hullbilly]

Luckily enough my generosity is independent of your doubt.

Like I said, $20 bills don’t feed hungry people, your steak would have. But you chose to be selfish

 

[squeezer]

Still waiting for a list of countries.

Keep waiting...

I’ll do you 20:1 however.

For every single country you name that spends more on healthcare than we do I will list 20 who spend less.

GO...

 

[was thatguy]

And I would suggest that if educating kids is a burden you might need to take a look at how much stupid people cost us...

Let’s do that!
We’ll start by asking NY?

 

[was thatguy]

Keep waiting...

I’ll do you 20:1 however.

For every single country you name that spends more on healthcare than we do I will list 20 who spend less.

GO...

Sorry, I’m not validating your claims for you.

YOU said there are countries that compare favorably...I’m simply asking you to list a few.

 

[Hullbilly]

Keep waiting...

I’ll do you 20:1 however.

For every single country you name that spends more on healthcare than we do I will list 20 who spend less.

GO...

name another country that has an illegal alien population of around 25 million like we do. I’m sure if we punted all their asses back to their country of origin our healthcare system would be better....GO

 

[Hullbilly]

Sorry, I’m not validating your claims for you.

YOU said there are countries that compare favorably...I’m simply asking you to list a few.

His response was straight out of the lib playbook for dummies.

 

[RodnJen]

As soon as you post up a solution that does not cost taxpayers money to care for others I’ll take you seriously

Its simple, get a job with health care coverage. Or pay for it with your wages, and not buy toys. Its not my job to support other grown adults and their spawn

What do you think insurance is?

 

[was thatguy]

name another country that has an illegal alien population of around 25 million like we do. I’m sure if we punted all their asses back to their country of origin our healthcare system would be better....GO

It’s the same old story.
They make all these claims and statements and never stand behind them.
It’s a big reason why there is never any meaningful debate.
UD has tried to engage, but Squeeze just tangents off on rhetoric.

I’m out, good luck UD.

 

[Hullbilly]

What do you think insurance is?

So whats the problem? Why can’t they buy their own “insurance”? I pay for insurance. I don’t pay for your auto policy, why should I pay for your healthcare policy?

Glad you came along to interject some logic into this conversation....

 

[Hullbilly]

It’s the same old story.
They make all these claims and statements and never stand behind them.
It’s a big reason why there is never any meaningful debate.
UD has tried to engage, but Squeeze just tangents off on rhetoric.

I’m out, good luck UD.

I hear you, but the IQ just doubled in this thread as Rodney just decided to interject his logical viewpoints....

 

[Uncle Dave]

My biggest complaint about President Obama is he put in that weak assed excuse for a healthcare plan... Basic Medicare that anybody can buy in to. Hell don’t even make it mandatory. Just give every person and company in the country the chance to buy in at 60% of the private market ( Because 60% is what Medicare pays compared to private insurance) Heavily focus on health and prevention... And yea there would be a few health insurance companies go bankrupt.

As far as taxing single people less because they don’t have kids...? Last time I checked single people can and do have kids. Chose not to have kids, OK how can you prove you won’t have them next year? My school Levy per given year does not pay for a year of schooling... So it gets spread out.

And I would suggest that if educating kids is a burden you might need to take a look at how much stupid people cost us...

Helthcare insurance has to be mandatory - thats the only way it works -
If you wait till youre sick to buy it people will fuck the system and hand me their bill.

Im not suggesting kids not be educated - I'm saying the people that have them should pay for it.
I shouldn't pay the same property tax as someone who decided to wriggle upstream and spawn if I choose not to have kids.

Child spawning and rearing is optional and choice.
Healthcare is not, everyone needs it.

UD

 

[squeezer]

Helthcare insurance has to be mandatory - thats the only way it works -
If you wait till youre sick to buy it people will fuck the system and hand me their bill.

Im not suggesting kids not be educated - I'm saying the people that have them should pay for it.
I shouldn't pay the same property tax as someone who decided to wriggle upstream and spawn if I choose not to have kids.

Child spawning and rearing is optional and choice.
Healthcare is not, everyone needs it.

UD

I don’t want to drop bombs in the ME... Can I stop paying for that?

 

[Uncle Dave]

I don’t want to drop bombs in the ME... Can I stop paying for that?

I dont either but my elected gov seems to want to no matter what they campaign on.
one can vote, be an activist or get into politics if you want to change government

We hold government accountable by voting them out (or not)

I cant vote to keep people from having kids they can't afford, and I shouldn't have to pay for or subsidize others lifestyle choices.
A personal choice like having a child is all on the couple or individual decision- they shodul pay the price for their decision.




UD

 

[squeezer]

I dont either but my elected gov seems to want to no matter what they campaign on.
one can vote, be an activist or get into politics if you want to change government

We hold government accountable by voting them out (or not)

I cant vote to keep people from having kids they can't afford, and I shouldn't have to pay for or subsidize others lifestyle choices.
A personal choice like having a child is all on the couple or individual decision- they shodul pay the price for their decision.

UD

Can you imagine how much worse this country would be if all schools were private ?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Can you imagine how much worse this country would be if all schools were private ?

thats a different topic ill play ball on if someone else starts a thread on it.

Public school is fine - paid for by property taxes in most places.

Why should people get more and more deductions and free tax paid services for having more kids?



UD

 

[500bbc]

Your assumptions betray you... I did not share food off my plate but did ( And Do) hand 20’s out every time when leaving a high end restaurant...

To who? T

So whats the problem? Why can’t they buy their own “insurance”? I pay for insurance. I don’t pay for your auto policy, why should I pay for your healthcare policy?

Glad you came along to interject some logic into this conversation....

You're supposed to pay for that fucking idiots food too.

Eating is a right more important than putting band aids on their boo boos.

 

[TeamGreene]

I was born&raised in a socialist country.We had FREE universal care It was covered by an unknown percentage of your paycheck. Only the elite, actors,government workers and doctors could afford having well known excellent doctors practicing privately. If went to government run hospital for surgery, you were better had a sealed envelope with gratuity, making sure the surgeon will do his/her best.
If you visited medical centers, they were always filled to the walls with people and waiting times were usually half a day to see a doc.
Our CHEAP Canadian healthcare sux too, but don't tell anyone I said itgetting an appointment for MRI usually takes three months, elected surgery 6-8 months if you lucky. Have at it if you admire our socialistic system boys.

Funny how none of the resident "experts" on socialism try and debate with someone who actually has first hand knowledge of it.
It's the same with the border debate, Dems won't go and ask the people who are responsible for protecting it what they need to do their job.

Terrified of the truth.

 

[Racey]

It’s not about free shit, it’s about expensive shit... Very expensive shit that I have to pay for in the most inefficient way possible.

And one does not have to be in the healthcare field to do math...

The most ineffcient way possible would be to pay the government, then have their bureaucratic overhead, waste, zero incentive for efficiency, then they pay the providers...

 

[SBMech]

Normalize healthcare costs...so how do you pay the elite? The Neurosurgeon who can do the most intricate operations, why would those people want to work for a flat fee?

I get that the majority of Dr's are indeed there to help everyone, that is their calling. How do you entice the ones who could be lifechangers to join if there is no reward?

Not everyone has the same moral code, I know Dr's on both sides, most are rewarded well enough for them to be able to focus on their calling to help humanity....

But there are a few really fucking talented surgeons I have as clients who do not give a single fuck about humanity, they are there to make a shitload of money and retire early.

Without the intake of BOTH of those types of mental states, we as a whole loose.

There are so many variables once you jump down the rabbit hole of complete social support. Where will you end it? How can you promise it will not corrode our Constitutional Rights in the name of the greater good?

It's a fucking nightmare.

IMO AHCA fucking broke what was a feasible (corrupt as fuck) system that was working. Yes it was not perfect, but Jesus fucking Christ, shit is so much worse now.