A.O.C Healthcare is a "right"

[Uncle Dave]

It cannot be.

For it to be a "right" someone must force a 3rd party to give it to a receiving party.

By doing so you remove that persons right to liberty.

"Rights" don't work that way.



UD

 

[Racey]

A right cannot come at the obligation of another, an impossible concept for a socialist to understand.

You can have a right to feed yourself, you do not have a right to steal someone else's food, or force them to feed you.

 

[SNiC Jet]

 

[Jakeleft]

I think that AOC and the whole democratic party needs to relearn the definition of the word right

 

[boatdoc55]

I think that AOC and the whole democratic party needs to relearn the definition of the word right

I think AOC and the whole democrat party need to go to sea on a boat with a 500 mile range and turn around at 300 miles.

 

[squeezer]

It cannot be.

For it to be a "right" someone must force a 3rd party to give it to a receiving party.

By doing so you remove that persons right to liberty.

"Rights" don't work that way.



UD

Yes because the biggest issue we have with health care are doctors who don’t want to help people....

 

[Uncle Dave]

Yes because the biggest issue we have with health care are doctors who don’t want to help people....

I'm trying to understand your position on this.......can you elucidate a bit?

UD

 

[was thatguy]

Yes because the biggest issue we have with health care are doctors who don’t want to help people....

I'm trying to understand your position on this.......can you elucidate a bit?

UD

I too am interested in further explanation of that statement.
Is he talking about actual paid physicians with real expensive degrees, or volunteer doctors from the peace Corp?

 

[500bbc]

Yes because the biggest issue we have with health care are doctors who don’t want to help people....

In other words, "YOU work for free, it's not for me!".

 

[Jakeleft]

I think AOC and the whole democrat party need to go to sea on a boat with a 500 mile range and turn around at 300 miles.

They might just do it

 

[500bbc]

I too am interested in further explanation of that statement.
Is he talking about actual paid physicians with real expensive degrees, or volunteer doctors from the peace Corp?

"Doctors" with degrees from Guatemala U who sneak across the border with someone's kid under each arm.

 

[Uncle Dave]

What do you call a medical student that graduated at the bottom 5% of his class from an online medical school in the Caribbean?

"Dr.".

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

I too am interested in further explanation of that statement.
Is he talking about actual paid physicians with real expensive degrees, or volunteer doctors from the peace Corp?

I'm totally open to dialog about this and not looking for a throwdown.

I married a Canadian (2 now) and go to Europe/ Latin America/ Asia all the time - I've seen all kinds of healthcare.

UD

 

[pronstar]

View attachment 733049

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[RodnJen]

Is the discussion about whether HC is a right or is about whether everyone in America should have access to true HC, not just emergency care?

 

[was thatguy]

I'm totally open to dialog about this and not looking for a throwdown.

I married a Canadian (2 now) and go to Europe/ Latin America/ Asia all the time - I've seen all kinds of healthcare.

UD

Understood.
I don’t understand his statement though?
What doctors “don’t want to help people”...? What does that even mean?
Is he talking about the oath and doctors are supposed to help all patients with or without pay?
Is he blaming doctors as the biggest flaw in our system?

On a side note...you have 2 wives???

 

[mash on it]

On a side note...you have 2 wives???

Special Canadian sale? 2 for 1?

Dan'l

 

[Uncle Dave]

Understood.
I don’t understand his statement though?
What doctors “don’t want to help people”...? What does that even mean?
Is he talking about the oath and doctors are supposed to help all patients with or without pay?
Is he blaming doctors as the biggest flaw in our system?

On a side note...you have 2 wives???

I dont understand it either.

Wife 1 was a Montreal Francophone 97-05
Wife 2 was a Montreal Anglophone 2011-current.

(My co HQ was in Montreal so I naturally met women there as a single guy)


UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Is the discussion about whether HC is a right or is about whether everyone in America should have access to true HC, not just emergency care?

My point was that it cannot be a right.

It should be and is a service.

It can and should be made affordable through a combination of insurance and co-pay that everyone should have to buy into.
Obama missed the mark in areas, but did get a few things right - but blew it BIGTIME when it let friends of the party "waiver out ".

" all the animals were equal " - except they weren't.




UD

 

[squeezer]

Show up bleeding at any emergency room in this country and they will provide care. Required by law. There is no consideration given to the Dr’s “Right” to say no... So by the asanine standards this thread was started to discuss, emergency room doctors must be the most persecuted members of society...

 

[Hullbilly]

Show up bleeding at any emergency room in this country and they will provide care. Required by law. There is no consideration given to the Dr’s “Right” to say no... So by the asanine standards this thread was started to discuss, emergency room doctors must be the most persecuted members of society...

Yes we know you love free shit. #doitforher

 

[squeezer]

I'm trying to understand your position on this.......can you elucidate a bit?

UD

Open the conversation with a statement that isn’t absurd and we can discuss it.

Saying all Americans shouldn’t have access to healthcare because it tramples on a Dr’s rights to refuse care is rediculous.

 

[squeezer]

Yes we know you love free shit. #doitforher

Wow, you must have worked hard to come up with that in depth, well thought out response to the health care delivery problems this country faces...

 

[Old Texan]

Show up bleeding at any emergency room in this country and they will provide care. Required by law. There is no consideration given to the Dr’s “Right” to say no... So by the asanine standards this thread was started to discuss, emergency room doctors must be the most persecuted members of society...

So is that part of the answer to your earlier statement Biff?????

I recall some rant you had early on when you started posting regarding a medical issue in your family. I suspect that to be the root cause of your issue against the nation's pre Obama and current health care industry. Welllll?

 

[squeezer]

So is that part of the answer to your earlier statement Biff?????

I recall some rant you had early on when you started posting regarding a medical issue in your family. I suspect that to be the root cause of your issue against the nation's pre Obama and current health care industry. Welllll?

Swing and a miss...

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Open the conversation with a statement that isn’t absurd and we can discuss it.

Saying all Americans shouldn’t have access to healthcare because it tramples on a Dr’s rights to refuse care is rediculous.

All Americans (and non americans) have access to health care. The questions is who pays for it.

 

[Hullbilly]

Wow, you must have worked hard to come up with that in depth, well thought out response to the health care delivery problems this country faces...

As soon as you post up a solution that does not cost taxpayers money to care for others I’ll take you seriously

Its simple, get a job with health care coverage. Or pay for it with your wages, and not buy toys. Its not my job to support other grown adults and their spawn

 

[Hullbilly]

So is that part of the answer to your earlier statement Biff?????

I recall some rant you had early on when you started posting regarding a medical issue in your family. I suspect that to be the root cause of your issue against the nation's pre Obama and current health care industry. Welllll?

No, he just likes the concept that taxpayers pay for free shit for leeches

 

[Uncle Dave]

Open the conversation with a statement that isn’t absurd and we can discuss it.

Saying all Americans shouldn’t have access to healthcare because it tramples on a Dr’s rights to refuse care is rediculous.

Ok, so now I understand what you mean.

Dont try to put words in my mouth. I dont do that to you.

Go back and read what I said subsequently - I never said they should not have access to healthcare - but the right mechanism to do that isn't to create a slave class of servants.

You seem to have no problem forcing people to work for the sake of others.

Who gets to pick who becomes someone else's indentured servant?

where would that stop? The right to free housing? The right to free food?

Cops aren't obligated to help us - but hospitals and doctors should be forced to perform services at the whims of patients?

Do you know why there are no Drs. in Toronto that can run a Davinci Surgical robot? (or werent 5 years ago)
They fly in from the US.

UD

 

[Old Texan]

Swing and a miss...

I don't think so. I think it was a direct hit on your early talks about being raised on a "dirt" farm and such. Hell I remember you naively even posting your name and address before you realized how crazy things can run around here.

You were pissed over some medical slight. If you don't care to talk about it I understand as it's personal and nobody's business, but you got pissed off at some point in life and changed your views over it.

 

[squeezer]

I don't think so. I think it was a direct hit on your early talks about being raised on a "dirt" farm and such. Hell I remember you naively even posting your name and address before you realized how crazy things can run around here.

You were pissed over some medical slight. If you don't care to talk about it I understand as it's personal and nobody's business, but you got pissed off at some point in life and changed your views over it.

Strike two...

 

[Hullbilly]

Uuuuuutopia is what Splogee is after, free shit.....no wonder he adores oac they both are clueless.

 

[Hullbilly]

Strike two...

That was a well thought out response....solid work

 

[squeezer]

Ok, so now I understand what you mean.

Dont try to put words in my mouth. I dont do that to you.

Go back and read what I said subsequently - I never said they should not have access to healthcare - but the right mechanism to do that isn't to create a slave class of servants.

You seem to have no problem forcing people to work for the sake of others.

Who gets to pick who becomes someone else's indentured servant?

where would that stop? The right to free housing? The right to free food?

Cops aren't obligated to help us - but hospitals and doctors should be forced to perform services at the whims of patients?

Do you know why there are no Drs. in Toronto that can run a Davinci Surgical robot? (or werent 5 years ago)
They fly in from the US.

UD

This conversation is not about forcing Dr’s or anybody else into indentured servitude and you know that. Leave the Libertarian prattle to those more versed in it.

 

[squeezer]

That was a well thought out response....solid work

Not taking the bait today. You want to talk healthcare delivery then talk it. Anything else is going to be swatted away.

 

[Hullbilly]

Not taking the bait today. You want to talk healthcare delivery then talk it. Anything else is going to be swatted away.

I gave you a response...but its not good enough for you as you think it is my job to provide for others...ie free shit for scumbags.

You come up with a solution that costs taxpayers nothing, to provide healthcare to those that refuse to care for themselves and their spawn and we can have an intelligent conversation

Until then youre just another free shit utopian dreamer

 

[squeezer]

As soon as you post up a solution that does not cost taxpayers money to care for others I’ll take you seriously

Its simple, get a job with health care coverage. Or pay for it with your wages, and not buy toys. Its not my job to support other grown adults and their spawn

Are you willing to actully look at how other countries deliver better results at lower costs or are you just beating a right wing talking point.

Because there are numerous examples of better cost/benefit outcomes if you can do simple math and can read.

 

[Hullbilly]

This conversation is not about forcing Dr’s or anybody else into indentured servitude and you know that. Leave the Libertarian prattle to those more versed in it.

So then its about taxpayers paying for freeloaders....

 

[Hullbilly]

Are you willing to actully look at how other countries deliver better results at lower costs or are you just beating a right wing talking point.

Because there are numerous examples of better cost/benefit outcomes if you can do simple math and can read.

Would you like to start with Canada? Perhaps a scandanavian country?

 

[was thatguy]

I don't think so. I think it was a direct hit on your early talks about being raised on a "dirt" farm and such. Hell I remember you naively even posting your name and address before you realized how crazy things can run around here.

You were pissed over some medical slight. If you don't care to talk about it I understand as it's personal and nobody's business, but you got pissed off at some point in life and changed your views over it.

And if true that’s unfortunate.
My experience has been the opposite.
As a young man around 21 years old, my first daughter was extremely sick starting at 1-2 years old. After 3 years of constant trips to the Emergency room, months at a time in ICU, twice jump started with the paddles, trips all over the Country with her doctor and Dr. Scott from UCLA she was diagnosed with an incredibly rare genetic disorder.
All of this was with no insurance and minimal income. The doctors did all this without any pay from me. Early on her doctor in Anchorage pulled our files from his contracted billing service, basically violating his contract with them. I remember going to his office with a couple hundred in cash that I had scraped up as some sort of token payment and he refused the money. I told him that I felt like I was jeopardizing her treatments. He took great offense and umbrage with that, saying that there was nothing that would ever jeopardize her treatment, least of all my inability to pay what would ultimately be millions of dollars.
Of course more recently my journey through the cancer maze also produced a similar experience, although I did have the best insurance money could buy. I worked anywhere and did whatever I had to to make sure that policy was current, even dropping my own to make damn sure she was covered.
These are committed doctors and researchers that truly do care.
Yeah, they get paid big bucks, but my experience is that with the great ones it isn’t about the money.
Yes, there was incompetence encountered along the way, and “doctors” that certainly did not fit the above narrative, but I would quickly dismiss them and get her into somewhere better, like Stanford and UC Davis.

 

[was thatguy]

Are you willing to actully look at how other countries deliver better results at lower costs or are you just beating a right wing talking point.

Because there are numerous examples of better cost/benefit outcomes if you can do simple math and can read.

Name what you consider the top 3 other country’s. I’ll bite.

 

[Uncle Dave]

This conversation is not about forcing Dr’s or anybody else into indentured servitude and you know that. Leave the Libertarian prattle to those more versed in it.

Actually, as the OP that started the thread - it is about that.

My point was that "rights" for one person - cannot be obligations to others.


UD

 

[mjc]

Are you willing to actully look at how other countries deliver better results at lower costs or are you just beating a right wing talking point.

Because there are numerous examples of better cost/benefit outcomes if you can do simple math and can read.

I want to know what countries have better health care than us?

 

[squeezer]

This is really pretty simple folks...

Ask yourself a few questions:

First, are You willing to let people die in Emergency room parking lots.

Yes or No .... ????

If Yes, then this conversation is over.

If No then here is the next question...

Who pays for that care now?

This one is open to some discussion but I bet we could all agree that whatever formulas, ratios of taxes to private plans, etc, etc that we’re thrown out there the ultimate answer would be WE DO.

If you can agree to that point we can move on to the next question.

Are we getting good value for the $$$ spent?

Now is where opinions can differ as judging quality and quantity of care depends on chosen metrics with respect to both costs and outcomes.

I suspect that healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP would be easy enough to agree on... If there is a more substantive indicator of costs please suggest what it is and we can refine the conversation.

As far as outcomes as a success metric I suspect, based on posts in the lounge... That many of you only care about the cost of your Viagra prescription and the quality of your 3rd wife’s fake tits. Don’t need Viagra and have not had the opourtunity to examine the quality of all that many of your wives boobs... So unless Dave let’s us start posting better pictures let’s use infant mortality rates and expected lifespan to judge outcomes...

With that to get us started please list all developed countries that spend more $$$ per capita on healthcare than we do.

 

[Hullbilly]

This is really pretty simple folks...

Ask yourself a few questions:

First, are You willing to let people die in Emergency room parking lots.

Yes or No .... ????

If Yes, then this conversation is over.

If No then here is the next question...

Who pays for that care now?

This one is open to some discussion but I bet we could all agree that whatever formulas, ratios of taxes to private plans, etc, etc that we’re thrown out there the ultimate answer would be WE DO.

If you can agree to that point we can move on to the next question.

Are we getting good value for the $$$ spent?

Now is where opinions can differ as judging quality and quantity of care depends on chosen metrics with respect to both costs and outcomes.

I suspect that healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP would be easy enough to agree on... If there is a more substantive indicator of costs please suggest what it is and we can refine the conversation.

As far as outcomes as a success metric I suspect, based on posts in the lounge... That many of you only care about the cost of your Viagra prescription and the quality of your 3rd wife’s fake tits. Don’t need Viagra and have not had the opourtunity to examine the quality of all that many of your wives boobs... So unless Dave let’s us start posting better pictures let’s use infant mortality rates and expected lifespan to judge outcomes...

With that to get us started please list all developed countries that spend more $$$ per capita on healthcare than we do.

So it’s about free shit, and you go full drama on letting people die....Good liberal tactics junior.


Are you in the healthcare field or just another self appointed RDP know it all?

 

[was thatguy]

Wow.
You parameters seem unrelated to the topic.
“Dying in E Room parking lots”?
Who exactly assumes the role of God in your scenario?

You want ME to list the Country’s that you say are “better”?

C’mon man.

 

[squeezer]

Actually, as the OP that started the thread - it is about that.

My point was that "rights" for one person - cannot be obligations to others.


UD

Yes they can.

“Rights” do not exist without responsibilities (Obligations). Some of those obligations are individual and others are socialized.

What do you think supporting the 6th amendment costs US taxpayers?

 

[was thatguy]

So it’s about free shit, and you go full drama on letting people die....Good liberal tactics junior.


Are you in the healthcare field or just another self appointed RDP know it all?

I’ll bet he has NEVER parked in an E room parking lot with the intent to help anybody.

 

[Old Texan]

Are you willing to actully look at how other countries deliver better results at lower costs or are you just beating a right wing talking point.

Because there are numerous examples of better cost/benefit outcomes if you can do simple math and can read.

Oh boy, here come the pie charts and graphs. Then the slanted articles based on select stats to meet those articles points.

It's pretty obvious the US has as good or better healthcare situation than the vast majority of the world. So many ways to reach that conclusion when we see how many come to the US from other nations to get superior care. Of those that go elsewhere it's typically because the US doesn't do experimental procedures and medicines as many other nations allow, and folks are desperate to try anything as the well should when terminal or unknown maladies are involved.

But at the end of the day, we get it right far more often than anyone else......Another thing to back this all up, is the number of foreign Drs' that come to the US to get their education and end up staying here in our highly prestigious and technically superior medical centers around the nation. The US more often than not, has the finest and best from around the world in our system. Because our system "is" superior......

Argue away Biff, it's your world, we're just trying to live in it.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Get back on track -

So you agree with AOC its a right? vs a service?

Emergency care is one aspect -

Long term care and access to technology like MRI machines for say cancer patients and expensive drugs are the other pieces of that.

To what extent do you feel others should be obligated to provide these services?

Where does it stop in your scenario?