TRUMP: why do so many hate him?

[Sandlord]

The only person In America that has the final authority to enact spending is the POTUS.

That is what the constitution states clearly.

Any time a president, regardless of political affiliation signs a spending bill that spends an amount greater than is what is coming in is by mathematical fact endorsing higher taxes.

It may not be now, but it eventually has to be paid.

That is just basic math that every American citizen should understand but seems to miss.

Doesn't that bolded part mean that he can withhold spending aid to Ukraine?

 

[530RL]

Okay, my turn.

Do you think Hunter and Joe Biden are guilty of corruption in the Ukraine by getting a cush job on the board of a gas company despite having no business or gas experience?
Joe Biden is on video bragging about withholding aid to the Ukraine unless the prosecutor looking into his son's job was fired. Is this not quid pro quo?
Do you think Joe Biden should be immune from investigation (by the Ukrainian government because that's where the situation took place) just because he is running for office?
If Trump had done the same for his son would you feel differently?

I agree with your premise.

And consistent with your premise Jodi Ernst has stated that if Biden wins the election she thinks he should have impeachment proceedings started against him.

Yet she voted not guilty.

How do we square her two disparate views?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Doesn't that bolded part mean that he can withhold spending aid to Ukraine?

Zing.

 

[530RL]

Doesn't that bolded part mean that he can withhold spending aid to Ukraine?

Only if we amend the constitution such that once a president signs into law a spending bill he can ignore the law he just signed.

He can certainly choose to veto the spending bill, but once He signs it into law, it is law.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I agree with your premise.

And consistent with your premise Jodi Ernst has stated that if Biden wins the election she thinks he should have impeachment proceedings started against him.

Yet she voted not guilty.

How do we square her two disparate views?

They aren’t disparate views. Trump withheld money that was eventually given and really got nothing in return. As a byproduct the whole controversy smoked Biden’s chances anyway..

Biden threatened to withhold money to Ukraine blatantly, (that by your own definition he had no control over the money in the first place) to enrich his son (himself).

Multiple Democrat senators threatened to not approve aid to Ukraine if they did not go along with presenting information against Trump.

This is how international politics is done, you know that, and I know that. Trump’s dealings with Ukraine really are on the weaker end of the spectrum here.

 

[rivermobster]

First, the question was “Medicare” for all, not “Healthcare” for all. Point is, tomorrow we can implement Medicare for all because the system is already in place. Yes, “Taxes” would go up. As for ER’s, your point is already happening, people without Ins. go to ER and overcrowd them. So we agree Medicare for all is good and works otherwise every 65 y.o wouldn't be using it.

Wait, what??

People over 65 use it cause it's GOOD??

How about they use it cause the ALREADY paid for it while they were working??

Isn't it pretty much mandatory??

Is there an option??

 

[saucedaddy]

Medicare is healthcare (well, actually healthcare insurance which is commonly refered to now as just healthcare). Taxes will go up so the middle class will bear the biggest burden but I don't think they can ever tax enough to pay for it.
Just because the system is over burdened now doesn't mean we should make it worse.
Medicare sort of works but there are plenty of problems. Everyone over 65 has Medicare because it is mandatory (at least part A is). Many people have supplemental insurance as well.
Yes we agree it would be good for all but not that "it works" or maybe I should say works well.

Nothing “Works” for all. But for the far majority it does. Now that we agree and the “Debate” has concluded, here’s Daddys plan.
1. Overhaul Medicare
2. Medicare mandatory for all day one
3. You can opt out of Medicare if you have equal or above private ins coverage.
Then we can focus on Prescription Drug reform and ease restrictions for treatments for stem cells etc.

 

[rivermobster]

First, the question was “Medicare” for all, not “Healthcare” for all. Point is, tomorrow we can implement Medicare for all because the system is already in place. Yes, “Taxes” would go up. As for ER’s, your point is already happening, people without Ins. go to ER and overcrowd them. So we agree Medicare for all is good and works otherwise every 65 y.o wouldn't be using it.

Also....

I have insurance and have gone to the ER.

Where else would I go in an emergency situation??

 

[530RL]

They aren’t disparate views. Trump withheld money that was eventually given and really got nothing in return. As a byproduct the whole controversy smoked Biden’s chances anyway..

Biden threatened to withhold money to Ukraine blatantly, (that by your own definition he had no control over the money in the first place) to enrich his son (himself).

Multiple Democrat senators threatened to not approve aid to Ukraine if they did not go along with presenting information against Trump.

If my parents find out the income I have earned to enrich myself really is theirs they may adopt you.

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

I agree with your premise.

And consistent with your premise Jodi Ernst has stated that if Biden wins the election she thinks he should have impeachment proceedings started against him.

Yet she voted not guilty.

How do we square her two disparate views?

Because I don't believe Trump (and I assume Jodi Ernst doesn't either) is guilty of either charge. He asked the new Ukrainian leader to look into something he thought warranted investigation. There was no abuse of power nor obstruction of congress.

I also disagree with her that Biden should be impeached if elected. Instead, I think he should be investigated immediately. I think he is the one guilty of abuse of power by not only getting his son this "job" but also withholding aid in exchange for the prosecutor getting fired and the investigation dropped (actual quid pro quo). If the democratic leaders had any inkling of integrity they would state the same and remove him from their candidate list.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

If my parents find out the income I have earned to enrich myself really is theirs they may adopt you.

Is your last name Biden? And did your daddy get you your job?

 

[rivermobster]

Nothing “Works” for all. But for the far majority it does. Now that we agree and the “Debate” has concluded, here’s Daddys plan.
1. Overhaul Medicare
2. Medicare mandatory for all day one
3. You can opt out of Medicare if you have equal or above private ins coverage.
Then we can focus on Prescription Drug reform and ease restrictions for treatments for stem cells etc.

Stem cells get treated??

The girl that used to cut my hair was an intern for City of Hope. They are doing amazing things with stem cell treatment over there.

She's never talked about Any restrictions. Just all the cool shit being done with that technology.

Are you unaware that stem cell treatments are being used widely today?

 

[530RL]

Because I don't believe Trump (and I assume Jodi Ernst doesn't either) is guilty of either charge. He asked the new Ukrainian leader to look into something he thought warranted investigation. There was no abuse of power nor obstruction of congress.

I also disagree with her that Biden should be impeached if elected. Instead, I think he should be investigated immediately. I think he is the one guilty of abuse of power by not only getting his son this "job" but also withholding aid in exchange for the prosecutor getting fired and the investigation dropped (actual quid pro quo). If the democratic leaders had any inkling of integrity they would state the same and remove him from their candidate list.

Fair enough.

I believe both violated the law and more importantly the principles that our founding fathers hoped for.

And I think Americans deserve better.

But I accept we respectfully disagree.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Stem cells get treated??

The girl that used to cut my hair was an intern for City of Hope. They are doing amazing things with stem cell treatment over there.

She's never talked about Any restrictions. Just all the cool shit being done with that technology.

Are you unaware that stem cell treatments are being used widely today?

Of course not. The guy slings Ragu and regurgitates talking points from MSNBC.

 

[RCDave]

He is likely referring to stem cells harvested from aborted fetuses

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

Fair enough.

I believe both violated the law and more importantly the principles that our founding fathers hoped for.

And I think Americans deserve better.

But I accept we respectfully disagree.

Out of curiosity, what law do you think Trump violated?

 

[saucedaddy]

Wait, what??

People over 65 use it cause it's GOOD??

How about they use it cause the ALREADY paid for it while they were working??

Isn't it pretty much mandatory??

Is there an option??

Your missing the point with all your questions. Of course your using Medicare (socialized medicine) because it’s cheap.!

 

[saucedaddy]

Also....

I have insurance and have gone to the ER.

Where else would I go in an emergency situation??

Again you missed the point. Which was what uninsured do.
Cmon man do some research and understand adult conversations

 

[530RL]

Out of curiosity, what law do you think Trump violated?

The same laws violated by Biden in his activities.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Fair enough.

I believe both violated the law and more importantly the principles that our founding fathers hoped for.

And I think Americans deserve better.

But I accept we respectfully disagree.

What laws did either actually violate? None.

Who really polices our foreign policy? No one.

We have “deserved better” for 100 years now. If we stopped letting half the world rely on us for safety and security, perhaps we would not have to deal with corrupt governments and situations like these.

We deal with corrupt governments because we can buy their loyalty. That really is one of the cornerstones of our foreign policy for over half a century.

 

[saucedaddy]

Stem cells get treated??

The girl that used to cut my hair was an intern for City of Hope. They are doing amazing things with stem cell treatment over there.

She's never talked about Any restrictions. Just all the cool shit being done with that technology.

Are you unaware that stem cell treatments are being used widely today?

I’m very aware of what City of Hope, UCLA and U of Texas do for Cancer. Cancer is a small part of stem cells treatment and it is severely restricted in the U.S compared to Europe, Mexico and Canada.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The same laws violated by Biden in his activities.

And those would be what?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Again you missed the point. Which was what uninsured do.
Cmon man do some research and understand adult conversations

Translation : watch more MSNBC

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

The same laws violated by Biden in his activities.

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Are you saying Trump used his position as president for him or his son to gain financially? Are you saying he then withheld aid to stifle an investigation into such ill-gotten gains?

 

[rivermobster]

Your missing the point with all your questions. Of course your using Medicare (socialized medicine) because it’s cheap.!

You assume too much. I have Kaiser.

Could you please answer My question now?

 

[rivermobster]

I’m very aware of what City of Hope, UCLA and U of Texas do for Cancer. Cancer is a small part of stem cells treatment and it is severely restricted in the U.S compared to Europe, Mexico and Canada.

Clearly you are not...

What she was doing there had zero to do with cancer treatment.

One of the story's she told me was abo6 a boy who lost his ear. They 3D printed a new ear from stem cells for him and attached it to his head.

Crazy stuff!

Are you telling me you would rather go to Mexico for treatment than say, City of Hope? Is that what you want me to believe?

 

[saucedaddy]

You assume too much. I have Kaiser.

Could you please answer My question now?

You won’t when your 65.
Do your own research and report back.

 

[rivermobster]

Again you missed the point. Which was what uninsured do.
Cmon man do some research and understand adult conversations

So you've insulting me and at the same time trying to convince me I need to have an adult conversation? Is that what I'm hearing from you?

The Kaiser ER is Always packed. You can't get into it unless you have Kaiser insurance.

Were you aware of those two facts?

 

[saucedaddy]

Clearly you are not...

What she was doing there had zero to do with cancer treatment.

One of the story's she told me was abo6 a boy who lost his ear. They 3D printed a new ear from stem cells for him and attached it to his head.

Crazy stuff!

Are you telling me you would rather go to Mexico for treatment than say, City of Hope? Is that what you want me to believe?

Don’t know about your 3rd hand info and not here to make any Trumpkin “believe” anything! Opinion statements kid just like your messiahs Beck, Tucker, Hannity, Leykis, and poor Rush!

 

[rivermobster]

You won’t when your 65.
Do your own research and report back.

Nice change of subject...

Would you please answer my medicare question now?

 

[saucedaddy]

So you've insulting me and at the same time trying to convince me I need to have an adult conversation? Is that what I'm hearing from you?

The Kaiser ER is Always packed. You can't get into it unless you have Kaiser insurance.

Were you aware of those two facts?

WRONG! Anybody can go to any Kaiser ER! Are you aware your severely confused about your “Facts”? Cmon man your not even a starter on JV.

 

[saucedaddy]

Nice change of subject...


Would you please answer my medicare question now?

The teacher told the student to go do your own research then report back to the class.

 

[rivermobster]

Don’t know about your 3rd hand info and not here to make any Trumpkin “believe” anything! Opinion statements kid just like your messiahs Beck, Tucker, Hannity, Leykis, and poor Rush!

Of course you don't.

More childish insults from you to compensate for your ignorance.

I'm starting to see why peeps feel the way they do about you. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[saucedaddy]

Of course you don't.

More childish insults from you to compensate for your ignorance.

I'm starting to see why peeps feel the way they do about you. Thanks for clearing that up!

Ok, now your emotional. Daddy will pull out!

 

[rivermobster]

The teacher told the student to go do your own research then report back to the class.

The only thing I have learned from you so far, is that if you can't provide an answer to a question, you provide insults.

Nice teaching style! It is impressive.

 

[rivermobster]

Ok, now your emotional. Daddy will pull out!

Wise move son. Wise move.

 

[530RL]

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Are you saying Trump used his position as president for him or his son to gain financially? Are you saying he then withheld aid to stifle an investigation into such ill-gotten gains?

I’m stating my belief and the belief of several republican senators and all democratic senators which is that Trump used his political office for personal gain.

To be fair those republican senators that came to that conclusion with the exception of Romney stated he did such activity but it did not rise to the penalty of removal from office. And some R’s agree with you that Trump did nothing wrong at all.

Consistent with my above belief and statement regarding Trump is that I believe Biden used his political office for personal gain.

I understand many also believe on both side that neither Trump nor Biden did anything wrong depending upon where they sit.

My conclusion is different. They both violated the oath of their office. Not a statutory violation of law but a constitutional violation of law. They taught us such mental gymnastics in my constitutional law classes I took in college.

But as I said before. I respect that others can come to the conclusion that Trump’s activities are good and Biden’s bad. And I respect those that come to the opposite conclusion.

That is why we all get a vote in November.

 

[RCDave]

Of course you don't.

More childish insults from you to compensate for your ignorance.

I'm starting to see why peeps feel the way they do about you. Thanks for clearing that up!

You got him figured out. Any time spent responding to him is a complete and total waste of time

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

I’m stating my belief and the belief of several republican senators and all democratic senators which is that Trump used his political office for personal gain.

To be fair those republican senators that came to that conclusion with the exception of Romney stated he did such activity but it did not rise to the penalty of removal from office. And some R’s agree with you that Trump did nothing wrong at all.

Consistent with my above belief and statement regarding Trump is that I believe Biden used his political office for personal gain.

What personal gain are you talking about? Because Biden is running for president then he shouldn't be investigated? If Biden hadn't committed the crime to begin with Trump wouldn't have had to ask the Ukrainians to look into it.

 

[rivermobster]

You got him figured out. Any time spent responding to him is a complete and total waste of time

That does seem to be the case!

 

[saucedaddy]

You got him figured out. Any time spent responding to him is a complete and total waste of time

 

[530RL]

What personal gain are you talking about? Because Biden is running for president then he shouldn't be investigated? If Biden hadn't committed the crime to begin with Trump wouldn't have had to ask the Ukrainians to look into it.

We are now having a circular argument regarding “appropriateness” that has been going on for the last three weeks in the senate.

Clearly we come to different conclusions as did R senate members as laid out in their speeches prior to the vote.

I fully respect we have come to different conclusions as did R Senate members and that neither of us will change each other’s minds.

At the end of the day it is subjective like most things in life. I think Romney got it right. I appreciate others think he got it wrong. But listen to his entire statement. It is thoughtful even if one disagrees with the conclusion.

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

We are now having a circular argument regarding “appropriateness” that has been going on for the last three weeks in the senate.

Clearly we come to different conclusions as did R senate members as laid out in their speeches prior to the vote.

I fully respect we have come to different conclusions as did R Senate members and that neither of us will change each other’s minds.

You seem to be intentional vague in your replies. I guess you are saying you think Trump was inappropriate in asking the Ukraine's to investigate. If so, then yes we do disagree.

The bottom line is Trump was acquitted and I think for most people in the country, the democrats have done damage to their reputation and believe the impeachment was politically motivated.

What I'd really like to see is some branch of the government investigate the Biden's along with every other politician that has ties with Ukrainian gas companies. There clearly is a lot of hinky stuff going on over there.

That is another thing I'm critical about Trump. He promised to drain the swamp. Now I know he is getting resistance from both sides on it but I'd really like to see some ass kicking. Maybe once re-elected he will step up.

 

[530RL]

You seem to be intentional vague in your replies. I guess you are saying you think Trump was inappropriate in asking the Ukraine's to investigate. If so, then yes we do disagree.

The bottom line is Trump was acquitted and I think for most people in the country, the democrats have done damage to their reputation and believe the impeachment was politically motivated.

What I'd really like to see is some branch of the government investigate the Biden's along with every other politician that has ties with Ukrainian gas companies. There clearly is a lot of hinky stuff going on over there.

That is another thing I'm critical about Trump. He promised to drain the swamp. Now I know he is getting resistance from both sides on it but I'd really like to see some ass kicking. Maybe once re-elected he will step up.

Yes I am saying it is inappropriate so let me be clear in my view.

There are several appropriate law enforcement branches of government to investigate such alleged wrongdoing by the Biden’s and both are lead by handpicked individuals by Trump. Further both the republican controlled House and republican controlled Senate could have legally undertaken such investigations in the first two years of his tenure and forwarded their findings to appropriate law enforcement.

It is not appropriate for the President, a political leader, to engage his private attorney to undertake such Law enforcement investigations, let alone doing so under the threat of withholding lawfully approved aid even if the aid eventually flowed after a delay.

So yes we disagree and the reason we disagree is that I don’t think such private and political law enforcement activities are consistent with the rule of law and due process under the constitution.

I accept you disagree but I hope this makes it less vague.

 

[regor]

We are now having a circular argument regarding “appropriateness” that has been going on for the last three weeks in the senate.

Clearly we come to different conclusions as did R senate members as laid out in their speeches prior to the vote.

I fully respect we have come to different conclusions as did R Senate members and that neither of us will change each other’s minds.

At the end of the day it is subjective like most things in life. I think Romney got it right. I appreciate others think he got it wrong. But listen to his entire statement. It is thoughtful even if one disagrees with the conclusion.

He fucking lied and of course you believe him...........he’s bought and paid for by the same handlers.

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

Yes I am saying it is inappropriate so let me be clear in my view.

There are several appropriate law enforcement branches of government to investigate such alleged wrongdoing by the Biden’s and both are lead by handpicked individuals by Trump. Further both the republican controlled House and republican controlled Senate could have legally undertaken such investigations in the first two years of his tenure and forwarded their findings to appropriate law enforcement.

It is not appropriate for the President, a political leader, to engage his private attorney to undertake such Law enforcement investigations, let alone doing so under the threat of withholding lawfully approved aid even if the aid eventually flowed after a delay.

So yes we disagree and the reason we disagree is that I don’t think such private and political law enforcement activities are consistent with the rule of law and due process under the constitution.

I accept you disagree but I hope this makes it less vague.

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you mostly except for the part about Trump with holding aid. I've never seen any proof of that happening.

Again, I am disappointed that he didn't initiate investigations immediately after taking office (drain the swamp). On the other hand, given the actions of some in the FBI and other agencies I don't blame him for not trusting their abilities or intentions. I think he should have cleaned house right away and not let all these democratic loyalists (as well as some unloyal republicans) remain in their jobs. They are clearly Trump's enemies and it is his bad for letting remain in government.
I would have much rather seen Trump be a one term president and had him truly drain the swamp.

 

[brgrcru]

Because I don't believe Trump (and I assume Jodi Ernst doesn't either) is guilty of either charge. He asked the new Ukrainian leader to look into something he thought warranted investigation. There was no abuse of power nor obstruction of congress.

I also disagree with her that Biden should be impeached if elected. Instead, I think he should be investigated immediately. I think he is the one guilty of abuse of power by not only getting his son this "job" but also withholding aid in exchange for the prosecutor getting fired and the investigation dropped (actual quid pro quo). If the democratic leaders had any inkling of integrity they would state the same and remove him from their candidate list.

Good luck chilli , you'll never get a straight answer. Why the pretzel gets baked.

 

[530RL]

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you mostly except for the part about Trump with holding aid. I've never seen any proof of that happening.

Again, I am disappointed that he didn't initiate investigations immediately after taking office (drain the swamp). On the other hand, given the actions of some in the FBI and other agencies I don't blame him for not trusting their abilities or intentions. I think he should have cleaned house right away and not let all these democratic loyalists (as well as some unloyal republicans) remain in their jobs. They are clearly Trump's enemies and it is his bad for letting remain in government.
I would have much rather seen Trump be a one term president and had him truly drain the swamp.

Appreciate the civil discussion.

Put the aid disagreement aside for a second and let’s look at where I think we agree.

The founding fathers set up a system so that no single political leader should be able to take such authority in their own hands as it is ripe for abuse.

So even when it may be necessary, I stand by the rightful fear that once accepted, the wrong people may abuse it.

So my greatest fear is the same as the founding fathers outlined in their writings. Not that one may use it for good, but that once accepted many will use it for bad. And that will truly be the end of the greatest experiment known to man....our system of government.

 

[regor]

Appreciate the civil discussion.

Put the aid disagreement aside for a second and let’s look at where I think we agree.

The founding fathers set up a system so that no single political leader should be able to take such authority in their own hands as it is ripe for abuse.

So even when it may be necessary, I stand by the rightful fear that once accepted, the wrong people may abuse it.

So my greatest fear is the same as the founding fathers outlined in their writings. Not that one may use it for good, but that once accepted many will use it for bad. And that will truly be the end of the greatest experiment known to man....our system of government.

So giving pallets of cash to a country that repeatedly declares death to America is good?

Allowing our intellectual property to be stolen and the destruction of our manufacturing sector all in the name of greed is good?

Making up lies to start a war that enriches the elite and their war machine companies is good?

I don’t recall you crying about those.

 

[Angler]