The Outboard Church

[TVMNick]

There are transom-mounted water pickups for that.

Which these don't have...

 

[TVMNick]

all good bro..you got any piks of H20 pickup locations?the V8 300Rs i seen they were on bottom of bullet near front like all sportmaster cases allowing full surfacing..My sportmaster is two plus inchs centerline of shaft above bottom of boat,so not much bullet dragging

So you do agree, there is an increase in the surface area of the larger bullet in the water causing an increase in hydrodynamic drag.

Glad we were able to arrive at a common consensus.

 

[stoker2001]

So there is more than just the skeg in the water? I'm confused.

every setup is different with X dimension..on these V8 four strokes they need huge diameter props with more blades (typically 5) to get the slip factor in check compared to older 300HP two strokes..All the V8s have a bigger diameter torpedo at 5.44" and they run then super high with not much of the bullet submerged..hope this makes sense?

 

[McKay]

every setup is different with X dimension..on these V8 four strokes they need huge diameter props with more blades (typically 5) to get the slip factor in check compared to older 300HP two strokes..All the V8s have a bigger diameter torpedo at 5.44" and they run then super high with not much of the bullet submerged..hope this makes sense?

So you’re now saying there is more than just the skeg in the water, correct?

 

[TVMNick]

every setup is different with X dimension..on these V8 four strokes they need huge diameter props with more blades (typically 5) to get the slip factor in check compared to older 300HP two strokes..All the V8s have a bigger diameter torpedo at 5.44" and they run then super high with not much of the bullet submerged..hope this makes sense?

False.

The 5.44" HD Gearcase is the fully submerged version gearcase for the respective powerplants we are discussing typically utilized on heavier boats with sub 80MPH operation. The sportmaster units we are discussing are not the gearcase you are referencing above.

 

[JD D05]

Bluetooth

This is why I run an Android.

 

[TVMNick]

every setup is different with X dimension..on these V8 four strokes they need huge diameter props with more blades (typically 5) to get the slip factor in check compared to older 300HP two strokes..All the V8s have a bigger diameter torpedo at 5.44" and they run then super high with not much of the bullet submerged..hope this makes sense?

After re-reading the posts in this thread I think where the disconnect is on this is I feel you are thinking I'm saying the R-Drive on the 500R and the SportMaster on the 450R are submerged gearcases.

Just for clarity, the cases are both surfacing cases but the water does slide along the bottom of the bullet on both the R-Drive Sport and the Sportmaster. The increased size of the R-Drive gearcase puts more surface area of bullet touching the water even though it is surfaced. Both gearcases have to have the water slide along the bottom of the bullet as that is how they pickup water.

While the difference in surface area sliding along the water is minimal between the two, there is still a difference and with hydrodynamic drag that difference is exemplified with speed. Which is why I feel between the increased drag, and the larger internal components the 500R / R-Drive combo isn't putting up better numbers than a 450R / Sportmaster combo despite the increase in engine HP output.

If this were not the case, Mercury Racing would have no reason to not build the cases larger with larger components for increased durability, also negating Markus' argument in prior posts. Inertial mass is still mass and thereby must abide by Newtons second law F=MA.

Anyway, fun discussion and some actual boating tech discussion which is something I enjoy.

Hopefully that makes sense as I feel that is where the disconnect is that started this spiral.

 

[McKay]

Thanks Professor.

 

[TVMNick]

Thanks Professor.

I'm just bitter you sold your M37r and we can't fit 6 in the FC21.

 

[War Canoe]

Pffffff…..”Houston, we have a problem.

 

[McKay]

I'm just bitter you sold your M37r and we can't fit 6 in the FC21.

Haha! Only 4 buckets going in that bitch! Wish my 37 only had 4 seats as well.

 

[clarence]

Haha! Only 4 buckets going in that bitch!

Pics?

 

[McKay]

Pics?

Not quite done. Probably end of January.

 

[Tony DCB Boats]

Not quite done. Probably end of January.

You guys are way smarter than you look... LOL

 

[McKay]

You guys are way smarter than you look... LOL

Hey, I resemble that remark!

 

[War Canoe]

You all need a buggy …. Life is too short not to own one!

 

[Markus]

If this were not the case, Mercury Racing would have no reason to not build the cases larger with larger components for increased durability, also negating Markus' argument in prior posts. Inertial mass is still mass and thereby must abide by Newtons second law F=MA.

The mass is not accelerated.

 

[Markus]

Which these don't have...

That is understood.

If the 500R gear case really generates a lot more drag than the 450R gear case even when surfaced, a transom-mounted pickup would help you gain a lot of speed while maintaining the much more robust gear case.

 

[HST4ME]

Maybe someday there will be a nice sleek dual pinion case under them

 

[McKay]

That is understood.

If the 500R gear case really generates a lot more drag than the 450R gear case even when surfaced, a transom-mounted pickup would help you gain a lot of speed while maintaining the much more robust gear case.

Wonder if Merc would be cool with that warranty wise? From memory pulling apart the riggging tube on the 450 I dont think you are fitting waterline through that. So you would need another, which not sure where you could tie that into without looking like dogshit.

 

[TVMNick]

The mass is not accelerated.

Please explain.

I'm assuming that you are saying acceleration is zero because the system is at steady state and the angular velocity of the prop is fixed for the given moment in time we are examining? If so, then yes, at that moment in time when angular velocity is in a state of no change, then angular acceleration will be zero.

There are still other factors (meaning inertial components) at play with larger internal components that make the system less efficient, and assuming that this system is truly at a steady state angular velocity would be a far stretch.

I guess bottom line, we all know it takes more energy to keep more mass moving.

 

[TVMNick]

That is understood.

If the 500R gear case really generates a lot more drag than the 450R gear case even when surfaced, a transom-mounted pickup would help you gain a lot of speed while maintaining the much more robust gear case.

Understood, but that is not the system we are dealing with. I personally would love transom pickups so I could run my X dimension higher and alleviate the exact issue we are discussing, the fact that the larger diameter R-Drive bullet increases drag.

 

[McKay]

Understood, but that is not the system we are dealing with. I personally would love transom pickups so I could run my X dimension higher and alleviate the exact issue we are discussing, the fact that the larger diameter R-Drive bullet increases drag.

Put them slightly deeper than optimal like we did on a buddies 33 the boat starts to want to drive on the bullet and makes the transom get loose. It’s a fine line of just perfect. On my 37 I was adjusting at first about 125 thou at a time and it was way to much. Started adjusting at 025 thou and got it dialed right in. 025 though could be the difference of 8-10 psi.

 

[TVMNick]

Put them slightly deeper than optimal like we did on a buddies 33 the boat starts to want to drive on the bullet and makes the transom get loose. It’s a fine line of just perfect. On my 37 I was adjusting at first about 125 thou at a time and it was way to much. Started adjusting at 025 thou and got it dialed right in. 025 though could be the difference of 8-10 psi.

Agreed. I've noticed the same in my experimenting with X Dim. Very fine line.

It does make you wonder what it would do if you could truly get the bullet completely out of the water with a high X Dim. Would it drive weird or...?

 

[McKay]

Agreed. I've noticed the same in my experimenting with X Dim. Very fine line.

It does make you wonder what it would do if you could truly get the bullet completely out of the water with a high X Dim. Would it drive weird or...?

Probably hull dependent. Not sure how much Tony and the boys calculate stern lift of the bullet in their hull design. I’m sure he’ll answer shortly. I know too deep and shit gets sketchy fast.

 

[TVMNick]

Probably hull dependent. Not sure how much Tony and the boys calculate stern lift of the bullet in their hull design. I’m sure he’ll answer shortly. I know too deep and shit gets sketchy fast.

Paging @Tony DCB Boats / Any answer for the above?

 

[jperog]

The higher the better, I can tell you from experience and Tony can verify how my boat runs. The key to the city is mobility of X dimension, I have Porta brackets on every outboard that I own including my toon.

Joe

 

[McKay]

The higher the better, I can tell you from experience and Tony can verify how my boat runs. The key to the city is mobility of X dimension, I have Porta brackets on every outboard that I own including my toon.

Joe

Better for what? Speed? Handling? Water Pressure?

 

[jperog]

Speed and acceleration. Water pressure comes and goes on my boat as we increase speed, I have to drop the motors in order to counter act the lift and maintain pressure. Its a balancing act to chase the 20Lb mark but its very effective. There is not one trim position that is optimum for all conditions--There is also not one motor height that is optimum for all conditions.

When we go into a turn, we drop the motors up to an inch depending on water conditions and traffic proximity "typically rough" at LOTO during group runs or on event weekends and the only way to turn the boat hard and confidently is with the skegs in the water. As soon as we are straighten out we go back to height for acceleration and watch the water pressure for our guidance.

I have my boat set up to run absolute neutral trim "which at many times feels high" but is manageable unless its very rough. There are several board members on here that have experienced my rig from the cockpit.

Propellers also play a big roll in set up. I run a lower rake then most and choose to keep diameter.

Joe

 

[Tony DCB Boats]

Put them slightly deeper than optimal like we did on a buddies 33 the boat starts to want to drive on the bullet and makes the transom get loose. It’s a fine line of just perfect. On my 37 I was adjusting at first about 125 thou at a time and it was way to much. Started adjusting at 025 thou and got it dialed right in. 025 though could be the difference of 8-10 psi.

Yes, and this info helped as we were dialing in the first few M-37's. We have had the engines low and high to see where it is best. Water pressure is key, and this determines the exhaust temp. Low WP will put you into guardian due to high EGT. I think it has to do with volume as well but there is no sensor for that. We have all run on the ragged edge for the number but I tend to look at slip now. Our engine height, to me is touching the conservative side and the client in the boat has hours of fun running, like @McKay & @TVMNick do. These guys run for hours and miles. They do not hang out in the channel like most think.

I love the calls and texts and pics of how much fun they are having instead of my boat is fast but having guardian issues.

Joe has more set back with his adjustable brackets and no notched transom as well. We run a set back closer to the transom and have the notch. Our set up is working and the speed and slip numbers are good for us.

The 500R is another animal and the gear case and water pick ups are different so here we go again. I find it fun and challenging and we are learning a lot. Mercury Racing is a huge help with data and set up.

I have yet to run a big pitch prop on a 500R set up but we have a few sets coming and you know I will see what it will do. In the meantime we have seen low 130's with 36 pitch. This is 1-2 faster than the 450R but we have 200 more rpm as well.

I am truly impressed with the pull and the acceleration of the 500R. You can run same or better speeds with a load of gas and a load of passengers now.

I am no expert and still learning everyday... This is what we live for and the input is always looked at and listened too.

 

[jperog]

The 500s are faster. We are looking forward to the new boat and dialing it in to keep up with traffic.

Joe

 

[McKay]

What are you building Joe?

 

[jperog]

We are putting a 42' together. Its a project but I am going to chase it until its right. I really love running at LOTO and all of the non-stop activity but the 36' is too small to run hard on many weekends throughout the summer.

Joe

 

[Markus]

I think it has to do with volume as well but there is no sensor for that.

As long as there is enough pressure for the water to get everywhere, water pressure is just a proxy for volume.

 

[clarence]

Speed and acceleration. Water pressure will comes and goes on my boat as we increase speed, I have to drop the motors in order to counter act the lift and maintain pressure. Its a balancing act to chase the 20Lb mark but its very effective. There is not one trim position that is optimum for all conditions--There is also not one motor height that is optimum for all conditions.

When we go into a turn, we drop the motors up to an inch depending on water conditions and traffic proximity "typically rough" at LOTO during group runs or on event weekends and the only way to turn the boat hard and confidently is with the skegs in the water. As soon as we are straighten out we go back to height for acceleration and watch the water pressure for our guidance.

I have my boat set up to run absolute neutral trim "which at many times feels high" but is manageable unless its very rough. There are several board members on here that have experienced my rig from the cockpit.

Propellers also play a big roll in set up. I run a lower rake then most and choose to keep diameter.

Joe

Just curious - I assume you find dealing with the sensitivity entertaining?

Or is it a little more work than you'd prefer?

 

[Markus]

Please explain.

I'm assuming that you are saying acceleration is zero because the system is at steady state and the angular velocity of the prop is fixed for the given moment in time we are examining? If so, then yes, at that moment in time when angular velocity is in a state of no change, then angular acceleration will be zero.

There are still other factors (meaning inertial components) at play with larger internal components that make the system less efficient, and assuming that this system is truly at a steady state angular velocity would be a far stretch.

I guess bottom line, we all know it takes more energy to keep more mass moving.

It is like a lighter flywheel or lighter crank or lighter pistons. It helps acceleration, but not static power.

 

[jperog]

Just curious - I assume you find dealing with the sensitivity entertaining?

Or is it a little more work than you'd prefer?

I like to stay ahead of the guys we run with. Its not for everyone and I have the choice of touching buttons or leaving them alone.

Joe

 

[Markus]

Wonder if Merc would be cool with that warranty wise? From memory pulling apart the riggging tube on the 450 I dont think you are fitting waterline through that. So you would need another, which not sure where you could tie that into without looking like dogshit.

The 2-stroke engines had a big plug in the adapter plate for that. No idea about the V8s.

 

[Markus]

I like to stay ahead of the guys we run with. Its not for everyone and I have the choice of touching buttons or leaving them alone.

Joe

Do you use TrimSync?

 

[jperog]

I am putting it on the new boat.

Joe

 

[War Canoe]

Merry Christmas to the entire congregation!
Lily is building us a new engine for New Years!

 

[Markus]

I am putting it on the new boat.

Joe

it makes it easier

 

[HST4ME]

I've had worse Christmaseseses

 

[War Canoe]

 

[War Canoe]

Here’s a little more Christmas “Cheer” for ya …

 

[stoker2001]

I like to stay ahead of the guys we run with. Its not for everyone and I have the choice of touching buttons or leaving them alone.

Joe

throttle in a bottle buttons..? you remember Chuck Goodman(RIP) the guru?Nitrox Injections in Louisiana..I had his methenol system 26 years ago.That Klotz/castor/meth is ultimate racers perfume

 

[jperog]

Most of our runs are at least 80 and up to 120 miles long, how many bottles would that take and how long will motors stay together using racers perfume? would they stay together at all? Running the distance in multi engine boats is not like the 800 ft small single drags and the cost of burn downs would likely be considerably more. The buttons I touch are bringing propellers to surface, pulling RPM, and lowering them back down for hookup and acceleration. I put more miles on my boats in a year then many do in a life time. Its something that both my son and I really enjoy running and experimenting with together.

To to the 3:13 mark and check out one of our best passes together:

I am pretty confident that the new project will keep up with our group at LOTO but time will tell. Looking forward to sorting it out and chasing the progress.

Joe

 

[ChrisV]

Most of our runs are at least 80 and up to 120 miles long, how many bottles would that take and how long will motors stay together using racers perfume? would they stay together at all? Running the distance in multi engine boats is not like the 800 ft small single drags and the cost of burn downs would likely be considerably more. The buttons I touch are bringing propellers to surface, pulling RPM, and lowering them back down for hookup and acceleration. I put more miles on my boats in a year then many do in a life time. Its something that both my son and I really enjoy running and experimenting with together.

To to the 3:13 mark and check out one of our best passes together:

I am pretty confident that the new project will keep up with our group at LOTO but time will tell. Looking forward to sorting it out and chasing the progress.

Joe

Badass man. Nitrous is great but for only short term. Would love to put jack plates on my m22. It’s something I feel it’s lacking.

 

[stoker2001]

Most of our runs are at least 80 and up to 120 miles long, how many bottles would that take and how long will motors stay together using racers perfume? would they stay together at all? Running the distance in multi engine boats is not like the 800 ft small single drags and the cost of burn downs would likely be considerably more. The buttons I touch are bringing propellers to surface, pulling RPM, and lowering them back down for hookup and acceleration. I put more miles on my boats in a year then many do in a life time. Its something that both my son and I really enjoy running and experimenting with together.

To to the 3:13 mark and check out one of our best passes together:

I am pretty confident that the new project will keep up with our group at LOTO but time will tell. Looking forward to sorting it out and chasing the progress.

Joe

LOTO short course bragging rights and spray....NAW,that would never work

 

[jperog]

LOTO short course doesn't give you bragging rights, it gives you a plaque for the wall and great memories. Running with a group for 30 miles at LOTO thru the waves, turns, traffic, and finishing up front gives you what lots of other guys wanted, (maybe bragging rights for an hour), and great memories & stories to tell, but doesn't pay much. Its all fun and we have a few more mph for this years shootout. I know we won't be the fastest this year, I am looking forward to seeing outboards run in the 40s (if they "motors and occupants" live)-we are pushing envelopes and the boats get really light.

Joe