Standing while moving

[PlanB]

This is one of the things I hate about Arizona. I got charged with a bullshit misdemeanor almost 15 years ago. It's mind boggling how easy it is to get popped with a misdemeanor in Arizona. I got a lawyer and showed up to court and my lawyer basically told me to plead guilty because going to a jury trial in Havasu is a losing proposition. I am a retired LEO, and this experience blew my mind. They enforce letter of the law out there and even then, they stretch statutes to make arrests. MCSO is one of the worst agencies I have dealt with. All the years going to the river, and I have never been stopped by a California Agency. It's a night and day difference how the AZ agencies operate compared to their CA counterparts.

 

[PlanB]

I just had to go to court for a class 2 misdemeanor. Won’t get into the details, but it was just as dumb as what you got cited for.

Unfortunately you can’t plead your case. You show up and either plead guilty or not guilty. If you plead not guilty, you go to trial and need a lawyer and more time/money.

I ended up pleading guilty and taking a $92 fine. My charge was for a stupid off-roading violation, but a few others in the court room had boating violations that were similar to yours. They paid anywhere from $100-$300, and had to take a boating safety course.

You’ll have a criminal record for the rest of your life. I’m currently working on getting my record clean, which is not easy given you have to deal with the .gov.

I always supported cops and backed the blue. After my experience and reading stories like this, can’t say I still do. I actually took my blue line flag sticker off my truck last week. Based on how full the court room was with people being criminally charged with bullshit, there has to be a breaking point eventually.

Let me know how cleaning your record goes. The first time I went to buy a gun in Arizona after my bullshit I had a three-day hold placed for an extended background check. I have an Arizona CCW now to avoid further issues, but that really pissed me off.

 

[Regency Tim]

Unfortunately people need to start contesting the charges. If you get a few cases thrown out the agency will change their attitude towards citations.

Edit.

I guarantee their (officer’s) attitude is that who’s going to actually come back for a trial?

I am! This is bullshit!

 

[Regency Tim]

Labor Day a few years back
Bennington pontoon with the "flip seat back" in rear. coming into Thompson Bay barney lights me up..
Two adults were sitting on the rear seat ,,,full railings....barney says not legal "transom riding...WTF
No day to argue...it was definitely a "safety check"

Had to appear in court...If you pled not guilty you had to come back...i listened to two others with same ticket....plead guilty=$300 fine

I had no interest in coming back pled no contest and paid $300

Big decision for me. My situation with 1 person moving seems so wrong. I'm planning on pleading not guilty. I wonder my odds of anyone even listening.

 

[Regency Tim]

This is one of the things I hate about Arizona. I got charged with a bullshit misdemeanor almost 15 years ago. It's mind boggling how easy it is to get popped with a misdemeanor in Arizona. I got a lawyer and showed up to court and my lawyer basically told me to plead guilty because going to a jury trial in Havasu is a losing proposition. I am a retired LEO, and this experience blew my mind. They enforce letter of the law out there and even then, they stretch statutes to make arrests. MCSO is one of the worst agencies I have dealt with. All the years going to the river, and I have never been stopped by a California Agency. It's a night and day difference how the AZ agencies operate compared to their CA counterparts.

I am planning on a not guilty plead. I'm worried about it and all the things you have said.

 

[hallett21]

I am planning on a not guilty plead. I'm worried about it and all the things you have said.

They still need to prove an obstruction of view.

In a legitimate trial I don’t see how an officer saying “his (operator) view was obstructed” is that’s good enough.

If you’re going to go the distance I think you need an attorney.

 

[ArizonaKevin]

They still need to prove an obstruction of view.

In a legitimate trial I don’t see how an officer saying “his (operator) view was obstructed” is that’s good enough.

If you’re going to go the distance I think you need an attorney.

Wouldn't be surprised if there's strategically placed cameras throughout the channel. I know that both MCSO and LHC PD wear BWC.

 

[hallett21]

Wouldn't be surprised if there's strategically placed cameras throughout the channel. I know that both MCSO and LHC PD wear BWC.

But how do you prove what the driver can or cannot see?

Did the driver have sunglasses on? How do you know if his eyes were open or closed?

I assume they’re making this “assessment” from a minimum of 100ft away.

 

[ArizonaKevin]

But how do you prove what the driver can or cannot see?

Did the driver have sunglasses on? How do you know if his eyes were open or closed?

I assume they’re making this “assessment” from a minimum of 100ft away.

There are some pretty impressive video forensic software tools that can do distance measurements using triangulation etc

The question is, is MCSO prosecutors willing to put in all of that work over a misdemeanor like this. I'm not sure.

 

[GreenEnergy28]

I am planning on a not guilty plead. I'm worried about it and all the things you have said.

Go for it man. I back LEO as much as I can, but this whole deal seems unreasonable, and your record is at stake. Clearly you were at a wakeless speed, attempting to moor your vessel before the LEO approached you.

 

[PlanB]

I am planning on a not guilty plead. I'm worried about it and all the things you have said.

When I went to court, I was not prepared. My attorney on the phone talked a big game but when we got into court that morning, he basically told me if I elect to go to trial, I was most likely going to lose. Havasu juries lean very heavily towards the prosecution. There were about 30 people with me that morning in court, and only one pled not guilty.

Almost every defendant was an out of towner or at least not a fulltime Havasu resident. It was a circus and I decided it was better to pay the $1000.00 fine and go to jail for 24 hours. I was pissed. I was actually going to sell my house and everything and get the fuck out of that town, but this was 2009 just after the crash. I put my boat up for sale and no takers. If that boat would have sold, the house would have been next, and we were looking at a condo in downtown San Diego right next to Petco Park to roll the money into.

I stayed away from Havasu for a year after that and we changed our program to try and avoid future issues. Good luck in court!

 

[Regency Tim]

First court date tomorrow. NOT guilty

 

[havasuhusker]

Good luck!

 

[Regency Tim]

Plead not guilty with a date to meet with county prosecutor 8/6 for a pre-trial conference. Prosecutor asked for a continuance on Friday because he just received the information. Bullshit. Now set for 9/9 and the prosecutor is looking for $300 fine, boating safety glass, 6 months probation and keep the class 2. No way will I accept that. Will see how it goes at the pre-trial conference.

 

[LHC30]

I remember as a kid, people used to get tickets for the fuzzy dice hanging from the cars mirror and the cop claimed obstructed vision. Well that got squished by the courts pretty hard because no cop was able to explain why and to what extent vision was obstructed. Might be a point here.

 

[Regency Tim]

I remember as a kid, people used to get tickets for the fuzzy dice hanging from the cars mirror and the cop claimed obstructed vision. Well that got squished by the courts pretty hard because no cop was able to explain why and to what extent vision was obstructed. Might be a point here.

That is one of my points. Sheriff wasn't in my driver seat so how can he say what view I had.

 

[DLC]

Plead not guilty with a date to meet with county prosecutor 8/6 for a pre-trial conference. Prosecutor asked for a continuance on Friday because he just received the information. Bullshit. Now set for 9/9 and the prosecutor is looking for $300 fine, boating safety glass, 6 months probation and keep the class 2. No way will I accept that. Will see how it goes at the pre-trial conference.

I would do some reading on the violation ….

Does it exclude Leo ?

Go to the Channel & Take some video and some still shots / pics & include LEO boats….

Then build your case / presentation ….

 

[jetboatperformance]

QUOTA Stop

 

[Kurt96]

Plead not guilty with a date to meet with county prosecutor 8/6 for a pre-trial conference. Prosecutor asked for a continuance on Friday because he just received the information. Bullshit. Now set for 9/9 and the prosecutor is looking for $300 fine, boating safety glass, 6 months probation and keep the class 2. No way will I accept that. Will see how it goes at the pre-trial conference.

Best of luck. That seems like a hell of a punishment for doing nothing, gotta love the AZ judicial system… My class 2 was only a $92 fine with nothing else. Looking back I should have fought, but ended up pleading guilty to get out of dealing with a circus. Haven’t run into any issues with having a criminal record so far, but I also haven’t tried buying a gun yet since then. That might be interesting.

 

[Mikes56]

Plead not guilty with a date to meet with county prosecutor 8/6 for a pre-trial conference. Prosecutor asked for a continuance on Friday because he just received the information. Bullshit. Now set for 9/9 and the prosecutor is looking for $300 fine, boating safety glass, 6 months probation and keep the class 2. No way will I accept that. Will see how it goes at the pre-trial conference.

We were leaving Pirates Cove in my boat several years ago. I had been drinking, so I had my non drinking buddy driving. My wife was sitting on the back of the boat with her feet on the swim step. As soon as we crossed over the No Wake Zone into the river we got lit up by Fish and Game in their boat. We got stopped for “transom riding.” The driver, my buddy that was driving, got a ticket. He fought the ticket and after several meetings with the prosecutor it got dropped to a $20 fine, no probation and no misdemeanor. Something to think about. It did take 3-4 meetings with the prosecutor.

The kicker on this is that my buddy and I are LEO and had our guns on board. We identified ourselves and told them about the guns. The FG Officer said sorry, I have to treat you like everyone else. We said NO you don’t, if you and your partner were getting your asses kicked by a bunch of guys, we’d stop and help you and not treat you like everyone else. Yea, my buddy still got the ticket.

 

[TimeBandit]

Y'all make Arizona out to be God's country.

This is taxation without representation just like all the "fees" we pay in California.

Revenue generation plain and simple.

He was pissed they didn't make more money with the DUI.

 

[EarpRider]

Y'all make Arizona out to be God's country.

This is taxation without representation just like all the "fees" we pay in California.

Revenue generation plain and simple.

He was pissed they didn't make more money with the DUI.

Cops don't care about generating revenue. They either like writing tickets or they don't. They don't give a shit about revenue.

 

[TimeBandit]

Cops don't care about generating revenue. They either like writing tickets or they don't. They don't give a shit about revenue.

Maybe a few cops will chime in on this I'm sure they are encouraged to write a few tickets on every shift, as well as get some DUI's.

So if a cop doesn't like to write tickets I don't know how he would keep his job a long time.

Like the sales clerk pushing a store credit card.

A dealership mechanic over selling unnecessary service items.

Life is sales like it or not.

 

[PlanB]

Maybe a few cops will chime in on this I'm sure they are encouraged to write a few tickets on every shift, as well as get some DUI's.

So if a cop doesn't like to write tickets I don't know how he would keep his job a long time.

Like the sales clerk pushing a store credit card.

A dealership mechanic over selling unnecessary service items.

Life is sales like it or not.

I worked in SoCal. I did not work traffic enforcement, and I rarely wrote cites. There were absolutely zero quotas. I was responsible for handling calls on my beat and that was it. I did a lot of self initiated activity targeting criminals, but that was not a requirement. I have no idea how things work in Havasu.

 

[yz450mm]

A month ago my old boat didn't want to cooperate (again)at the ramp and I had had enough, so I took it to boat brokers and went and bought a new boat at the dealer. Signed paperwork Friday, picked it up Saturday morning and headed straight to Windsor.

I knew I was going to get rolled at some point for having no registration numbers, so I made sure the dealer gave me a packet with all the paperwork and temp registration.

Went around the island and into Thompson Bay to jump in and cool off, and it only took a few minutes for the AZ sheriff's to cruise over. I told him it was brand new and I didn't have any numbers yet, he asked "how new" and I said about 45 minutes new, lol.

Totally cool guys, handed one the paperwork and chatted with the other for a minute and then we were on our way. I heard the guy checking the paperwork put out a radio call saying that the black and blue Yamaha with no numbers is good to go, and he said we should be fine the rest of the day. We were, and it was a pleasant experience.

 

[Rondog4405]

Plead not guilty with a date to meet with county prosecutor 8/6 for a pre-trial conference. Prosecutor asked for a continuance on Friday because he just received the information. Bullshit. Now set for 9/9 and the prosecutor is looking for $300 fine, boating safety glass, 6 months probation and keep the class 2. No way will I accept that. Will see how it goes at the pre-trial conference.

That's fucking insane! That's a straight up asshole cop! Madness that they are actually carrying on with that crap! Holy shit!

 

[jet496]

Here’s the actual statute:

C. No watercraft shall be operated with a passenger or passengers on the bow in such a manner as to obstruct the view of the operator.

You could maybe make the argument that a pontoon boat is not the same as a bow of a regular boat and the passenger area is the entire pontoon.

Seems pretty petty to be cited for that when it’s not really the meaning of the statute (keeping people off the bow of a boat that probably isn’t meant as a seating area).

I would contest it & simply say my view wasn't obstructed and that maybe it was obstructing the sheriffs view but they weren't sitting where I was. Just sayin'

 

[spectra3279]

I think it’s amazing that we have rationalized safety check and sobriety tests as “normal”..

Wasn’t that long ago people would want to know what the pc was for even being given a sobriety test..

Now it’s just submit and move on.

Don't think people accept it as normal. But know it's their SOP. Besides, how do you fight it?

 

[DLC]

The problem is the Pain in the ASS to prove your RIGHT - VRS $92 - $150 - $300 bucks
One would Think….
You’ll have way more $$$ into your case to just arrive and show up.

And
Then When you do fight it and show up MULTIPLE TIMES - The Cop doesn’t SHOW and you win….

But Then No Fault or responsibility from the ticket Issuing cop

Write 100 citations from a Holiday weekend to prove your pay & all while collecting OT
and
Then Not having any accountability for those citations


I’m 100 % pro COP
However
On holidays it seems ZERO Tolerance prevails and common sense is lost….

 

[EarpRider]

Maybe a few cops will chime in on this I'm sure they are encouraged to write a few tickets on every shift, as well as get some DUI's.

So if a cop doesn't like to write tickets I don't know how he would keep his job a long time.

Like the sales clerk pushing a store credit card.

A dealership mechanic over selling unnecessary service items.

Life is sales like it or not.

I worked the streets of Long Beach for 29 years, I rarely wrote tickets and I kept my job just fine.
Management never even said anything about revenue.
If anything, we would be asked to work a certain area for a particular problem, like speeding on a certain street, or not stopping or slowing down in a school zone. But NEVER for revenue.

 

[DLC]

Way back in the Day ….

Think it was the early 90’s we had a Mobil home at Lake Martinez…

Holiday weekends we full ON ZERO TOLERANCE

For Instance you could NOT drive your golf cart from Martinez over to Fishers
We had to push the cart while on the main paved road - like 100 /125 yards

So we jumped out of the cart and pretended to push the cart while the driver reached in and pushed on the GO peddle …

 

[lbhsbz]

I worked the streets of Long Beach for 29 years, I rarely wrote tickets and I kept my job just fine.
Management never even said anything about revenue.
If anything, we would be asked to work a certain area for a particular problem, like speeding on a certain street, or not stopping or slowing down in a school zone. But NEVER for revenue.

Long Beach ain’t the place to write tickets if the goal is revenue…lol

 

[Regency Tim]

Thanks for all the words and thoughts. I do intend to talk about the code that states, person on the bow, and a pontoon bow is in front of the fence. Then that my view was not obstructed. How would they try to prove or say it was obstructed. LEO was not in my position to be able to prove it.

 

[DLC]

Watched a 4th of July video ….

Lots of standing….

 

[CLCookie]

I got pulled over for this a couple of years, no cite. But I was asking the LEO some questions in regard, what he told me the driver can stand up all he wants, just the passengers need to be seated if the boat is underpower. All of this was on a Pontoon. I followed up with the question, "so the driver is legal to get his own beers out of the cooler?", he just laughed and left.

 

[TimeBandit]

It's like pointing out all the other speeders on the road while you are getting a ticket

He can only get one at a time.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

We were leaving Pirates Cove in my boat several years ago. I had been drinking, so I had my non drinking buddy driving. My wife was sitting on the back of the boat with her feet on the swim step. As soon as we crossed over the No Wake Zone into the river we got lit up by Fish and Game in their boat. We got stopped for “transom riding.” The driver, my buddy that was driving, got a ticket. He fought the ticket and after several meetings with the prosecutor it got dropped to a $20 fine, no probation and no misdemeanor. Something to think about. It did take 3-4 meetings with the prosecutor.

The kicker on this is that my buddy and I are LEO and had our guns on board. We identified ourselves and told them about the guns. The FG Officer said sorry, I have to treat you like everyone else. We said NO you don’t, if you and your partner were getting your asses kicked by a bunch of guys, we’d stop and help you and not treat you like everyone else. Yea, my buddy still got the ticket.

So you were asking to use the ol' Brass Pass ehh? (I really dont care and think its a BS to ticket for that) I just like using the phrase.

 

[Regency Tim]

It's like pointing out all the other speeders on the road while you are getting a ticket

He can only get one at a time.

Yes but who has even heard of the law

 

[Regency Tim]

Yes but who has even heard of the law

Also, potential 4 months in jail and class 2 for the rest of your life. Does that seem justified?

 

[Regency Tim]

Watched a 4th of July video ….

Lots of standing….


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Great pics. Any with LEO?

 

[Rajobigguy]

Do you have to appear in Havasu or Kingman??

 

[jetboatperformance]

What about whaler type boats that are designed to be driven either standing or sitting ? FWIW too I had a LEO once tell me about "the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law" Ya might wanna run that concept by the Judge along with the hundreds of pictures earlier in the thread

 

[Regency Tim]

Do you have to appear in Havasu or Kingman??

Lake Havasu. First appearance done with second set with the prosecutor. Pre-trial conference. He postponed once already. Back on 9/9 with an option not in court but by phone. I live in Phoenix now. Bit of a pain.

 

[TX Laramie]

Watched a 4th of July video ….

Lots of standing….


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First photo is best example of just how awesome this country can be. Offending citizen...did your standing passenger look like Miss America? Hahaha

 

[ArizonaKevin]

I got pulled over for this a couple of years, no cite. But I was asking the LEO some questions in regard, what he told me the driver can stand up all he wants, just the passengers need to be seated if the boat is underpower. All of this was on a Pontoon. I followed up with the question, "so the driver is legal to get his own beers out of the cooler?", he just laughed and left.

Unfortunately, his explanation of "the passengers need to be seated if the boat is underpower" doesn't match the following statute. "No watercraft shall be operated with a passenger or passengers on the bow in such a manner as to obstruct the view of the operator."

Would be much easier to enforce (both legally and enforce on my own boat) if the statute was written as simply as "no standing while boat is under power," the vagueness of obstructed view can create some issues. I am 6'5", if I sit in the bow of a boat that is driven by someone that is vertically challenged, I am probably obstructing their view to some extent.

 

[DWC]

Unfortunately, his explanation of "the passengers need to be seated if the boat is underpower" doesn't match the following statute. "No watercraft shall be operated with a passenger or passengers on the bow in such a manner as to obstruct the view of the operator."

Would be much easier to enforce (both legally and enforce on my own boat) if the statute was written as simply as "no standing while boat is under power," the vagueness of obstructed view can create some issues. I am 6'5", if I sit in the bow of a boat that is driven by someone that is vertically challenged, I am probably obstructing their view to some extent.

Yes.

 

[ArizonaKevin]

Yes.

No I wasn't thinking about you when I wrote that message, you can't prove it, I plead the 5th

 

[Regency Tim]

First photo is best example of just how awesome this country can be. Offending citizen...did your standing passenger look like Miss America? Hahaha

I wish

 

[Regency Tim]

Today met with the County Prosecutor for the pre trial conference. What a joke. All he said is , do you accept our plea. Said he could not change it. Bench trial to be set next. More time and money for everyone.

 

[12vMan]

Unfortunately, his explanation of "the passengers need to be seated if the boat is underpower" doesn't match the following statute. "No watercraft shall be operated with a passenger or passengers on the bow in such a manner as to obstruct the view of the operator."

That's the kicker. The passenger wasn't on the bow. Besides being in a no-wake zone, they were within the confines of the railing.