Obnoxious Racing Engines and Racetech Pistons

[Outdrive1]

So I'm freshening a 620cu Aluminum BBC.

This motor had 20 hours on it when I got it. The Magnaflow cam driven water pump leaked into the motor. I had water in the oil and couldn't find the cause. Pulled the headers. Tested them. Then pulled the intake. Looked for leaks. Then pulled the heads looking for a bad head gasket. Pressure checked the heads. Still couldn't find an issue. So out came the motor. Wasn't until I tore it down that I discovered the pump leaking.

I figured why I have it all apart. I might as well do all new bearings and rings.

Motor is an all aluminum Keith Black KB600. Basically it's a 1" tall deck. It's also 18 degrees. Dart Big Chief Pontiac Heads. Dry Sumped. Keith Black Knife Edged Crank. 4.75 stroke. 4.520 bore. 13/1 compression on race gas.

I got Barry involved once I started digging into it. I just wanted it back to stock and fresh. The old Felpro Head gaskets were 90's technology.

By the time I had the cylinders honed we realized that it was going to end up 4.540 bore. So I figured I might as well drop the compression to 11.5 so I could run AV gas instead.

Next call was to Jeremy at RaceTech. Barry gave him a deck height and they came up with some custom pistons. With in a day Jeremy had a cad file, and a couple of days later like magic a custom set of pistons. I'm still amazed how fast he pulled this all off.

 

[Cole Trickle]

Hard to beat that combo....that's what's in the 210[emoji41][emoji631][emoji106]

 

[Outdrive1]

Here's the block all honed. It's been machined washed but Barry says we will be hand washing two/three times in preparation for assembly.

It's basically an "8 bolt" main and uses a 426 Hemi pan. 18 Degree means it's an Oldsmobile block drilled for Chevy Heads. The block extends past the crank and has side bolts as well. These parts are super exotic and rare and replacement cost is cubic dollars. This combination would be rarer than a 426 Hemi.

 

[Outdrive1]

Assembly starts Monday night. I'll post pics and details as we go.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Here's the block all honed. It's been machined washed but Barry says we will be hand washing two/three times in preparation for assembly.
It's basically an "8 bolt" main and uses a 426 Hemi pan. 18 Degree means it's an Oldsmobile block drilled for Chevy Heads. The block extends past the crank and has side bolts as well. These parts are super exotic and rare and replacement cost is cubic dollars. This combination would be rarer than a 426 Hemi.

Dodge boys call it a skirted block. All the Mopar B/RB big blocks have the skirted design.

I believe the technical factory real name, is Y block, the only other to precede that I know of was the 292 -312 Ford style.

Racetec FTW!!

Brian

 

[Outdrive1]

Dodge boys call it a skirted block.

I believe the technical factory real name, is Y block, the only other to precede that I know of was the 292 -312 Ford style.

Racetec FTW!!

Brian

You're right. Sorry Jeremy for butchering your name. [emoji51]

Good info on the block. It's definitely not something most people have seen before.

 

[wsuwrhr]

You're right. Sorry Jeremy for butchering your name. [emoji51]

Good info on the block. It's definitely not something most people have seen before.

Yes sir.

The skirt makes the crank bore/block very rigid. In the Iron version though, that comes at a 75lb cost.

My alloy Indy and KB versions still can be picked up by one guy. Iron, not so much.

Brian

 

[28skater]

Here's the block all honed. It's been machined washed but Barry says we will be hand washing two/three times in preparation for assembly. View attachment 568258

It's basically an "8 bolt" main and uses a 426 Hemi pan. 18 Degree means it's an Oldsmobile block drilled for Chevy Heads. The block extends past the crank and has side bolts as well. These parts are super exotic and rare and replacement cost is cubic dollars. This combination would be rarer than a 426 Hemi.

That looks thirsty!

 

[wsuwrhr]

I am curious though.....how did the water pump leak internally into the motor?

Brian

 

[Outdrive1]

Yes sir.

The skirt makes the crank bore/block very rigid. In the Iron version though, that comes at a 75lb cost.

My alloy Indy and KB versions still can be picked up by one guy. Iron, not so much.

Brian

True. I can pick the block up by hand. I don't know what it weighs but I would guess 60/70 pounds? Maybe a little more?

 

[Outdrive1]

That looks thirsty!

That's an understatement. I calculated it to 100 dollars from the Keys to the damn per trip if your stay out of the throttle. Lol.

 

[wsuwrhr]

True. I can pick the block up by hand. I don't know what it weighs but I would guess 60/70 pounds? Maybe a little more?

Oooooo 60-70lbs? I think that is closer to the weight of a head.

Pooosibly, but I imagine it is closer to 100-120lbs.

 

[Outdrive1]

I am curious though.....how did the water pump leak internally into the motor?

Brian

I would have thought it would leak out of the weep hole. But the seals must have been gone, maybe water pressure pushed it past the seals? Either way when I pulled it out you could see water and rust on the shaft where it was pushing past the seals and bearings. I would have never thought it was possible.

 

[wsuwrhr]

That's an understatement. I calculated it to 100 dollars from the Keys to the damn per trip if your stay out of the throttle. Lol.

Fun normally carries a well justified price tag.

 

[ductape1000]

Baller!

So I'm guessing you got your parts delivery covered??

Looking forward to seeing this come together!

 

[wsuwrhr]

I would have thought it would leak out of the weep hole. But the seals must have been gone, maybe water pressure pushed it past the seals? Either way when I pulled it out you could see water and rust on the shaft where it was pushing past the seals and bearings. I would have never thought it was possible.

I get that, but forgive what may be a silly question, how does it past the engine "internally" to get water into the oil?

 

[Outdrive1]

I get that, but forgive what may be a silly question, how does it past the engine "internally" to get water into the oil?

Ok. This mounts to the timing gear cover and the shaft has a key way on the timing gear inside the cover. So it's open to the motor internally. You couldn't run the motor without the pump or a plate covering the hole.

 

[Outdrive1]

I also think the suction of the dry sump contributes in this case since there's a negative vacuum inside this block. Theoretically the block is sealed unlike a normal motor and there's 3 12an lines sucking oil and returning to the dry sump tank at 16an which is huge for an oil system.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Ok. This mounts to the timing gear cover and the shaft has a key way on the timing gear inside the cover. So it's open to the motor internally. You couldn't run the motor without the pump or a plate covering the hole.

Crap. Yep, got you now, what I would call a "Vdrive style" water pump.

Bummer deal to break it all down to find what could have been a simple fix.

 

[Outdrive1]

Crap. Yep, got you now, what I would call a "Vdrive style" water pump.

Bummer deal to break it all down to find what could have been a simple fix.

No shit. A 300 dollar pump. [emoji51]

 

[wsuwrhr]

I also think the suction of the dry sump contributes in this case since there's a negative vacuum inside this block. Theoretically the block is sealed unlike a normal motor and there's 3 12an lines sucking oil and returning to the dry sump at 16an which is huge for an oil system.

Yea, that could be an issue with a huge negative atmosphere.

Can you fit another seal facing the other way in the timing cover to try and further isolate the drive from the pump?

 

[Outdrive1]

Yea, that could be an issue with a huge negative atmosphere.

Can you fit another seal facing the other way in the timing cover to try and further isolate the drive from the pump?

That's a good thought. I'll look at it and see if I can add something if not I may have to go to Bravo style water pump that mounts like an accessory if I can find brackets that fit this block. [emoji51]

 

[wsuwrhr]

That's a good thought. I'll look at it and see if I can add something if not I may have to go to Bravo style water pump that mounts like an accessory if I can find brackets that fit this block. [emoji51]

I know it isn't as sexy but arent there conventional style block mounted pumps, even some that are electric? Similar to Meziere?(sp)

You know which I am talking about?

 

[Outdrive1]

I know it isn't as sexy but arent there block mounted pumps, even some that are electric? Similar to Meziere?(sp)

You know which I am talking about?

I'll google it. Adding another belt is a whole issue with the dry sump gear hanging on the front of the balancer. One off custom shit can be a total pain sometimes.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Just random thoughts about the seal design, I don't see how it would EVER work, since all the seals in the waterpump are designed to hold water IN the pumps pressure chamber.

Maybe if it had a double lip design....

Negative atmosphere should easily pull water from the seal backside resulting in the exact problem you found.

Brian

 

[Outdrive1]

Just random thoughts about the seal design, I don't see how it would EVER work, since all the seals in the waterpump are designed to hold water IN the pumps pressure chamber.

Maybe if it had a double lip design....

Negative atmosphere should easily pull water from the seal backside resulting in the exact problem you found.

Brian

Damn. Good thought Brian. That may have been a flaw in that initial setup. I'm going to have to do some research on what I can change.

 

[wsuwrhr]

I'll google it. Adding another belt is a whole issue with the dry sump gear hanging on the front of the balancer. One off custom shit can be a total pain sometimes.

I make a good living providing solutions to those problems.

I can't imagine no one else has experienced this same issue running negative atmosphere in marine type use.

 

[wsuwrhr]

I'll google it. Adding another belt is a whole issue with the dry sump gear hanging on the front of the balancer. One off custom shit can be a total pain sometimes.

https://www.meziere.com

Soooouper good peeps.

They have helped me with projects from time to time with my Mopar stuff.

I set my Hondo up with an electric pump instead of running one off the engine. She looks so much sexier without any belts and pulleys.

 

[BDMar]

I would have thought it would leak out of the weep hole. But the seals must have been gone, maybe water pressure pushed it past the seals? Either way when I pulled it out you could see water and rust on the shaft where it was pushing past the seals and bearings. I would have never thought it was possible.

I've seen this a few times throughout the years.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Very cool build looking forward to hearing numbers.

 

[Outdrive1]

Very cool build looking forward to hearing numbers.

The distributor has two pickups in it and you can change timing with a switch on the dash depending on fuel. It made over 1000 set on kill before and mid 800's at like 30 degrees timing. If I can still make in the 9's and not have to run race gas I'm going to be very pleased.

 

[obnoxious001]

I've seen this a few times throughout the years.

This boat sat for 20 years, so my first guess is there was a problem with the seal.

 

[Blubyu]

Freaking bad ass!! Some call these Y blocks, extended skirt pan rails and side bolted main caps like an LS. Built a couple of these before. One 598 inch with some big chief heads also, 1200HP.

 

[BamBam]

This boat sat for 20 years, so my first guess is there was a problem with the seal.

That's what I was thinking too.

Could you add a stage to the oil pump that's isolated and pumps water? I know I've seen it before. I have seen fuel and water pumps added as stages to barnes dry sump set-ups. Just a thought but it would eliminate the original problem and not add any extra belts or fabrication.

 

[Outdrive1]

That's what I was thinking too.

Could you add a stage to the oil pump that's isolated and pumps water? I know I've seen it before. I have seen fuel and water pumps added as stages to barnes dry sump set-ups. Just a thought but it would eliminate the original problem and not add any extra belts or fabrication.

That's probably not a bad idea.

 

[Heylam]

This boat sat for 20 years, so my first guess is there was a problem with the seal.

 

[mjc]

What is this going in?

 

[Outdrive1]

What is this going in?

Going back where it was.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Going back where it was.

Fuckin Tease.

Somekinnahotrodvbottomvdrive. Noted.

 

[stevesdcb]

Going back where it was.

View attachment 568496

Is this ^ the Schiada that Tony purchased a while back in N Cal? WOW!

 

[hallett21]

That's an understatement. I calculated it to 100 dollars from the Keys to the damn per trip if your stay out of the throttle. Lol.

Running AV or 110?

 

[Outdrive1]

Running AV or 110?

110.

 

[Outdrive1]

Just a cheap old crank.

The balance work and knife edges are beautiful.

 

[28skater]

4.750 :headscratch:

 

[Outdrive1]

4.750 :headscratch:

4.75 stroke. Deck height is 10.780. [emoji106]

 

[wsuwrhr]

4.75 stroke. Deck height is 10.780. [emoji106]

Mine is 4.3

Dizang that is a good size arm.

 

[rivermobster]

You got the right man for the job Paul. Subscribed.

 

[milkmoney]

Looks great so far.
Rudder on back burner lol [emoji202] [emoji6]

 

[obnoxious001]

The block was measured for main bearing clearance yesterday, and right away didn't like what the #1 bearing had (too tight even with an extra clearance bearing), so Paul is running it back to the machine shop in Havasu today to be align honed. I had inspected the bearings when it came apart and didn't see anything drastic, but there is no sense putting it back together too tight, or anything less than perfect. I was pretty happy that I had not washed the block yet at the point that I measured the mains. Meanwhile the rod bearing clearances are all within .0003", so oil flow should be very even, partially due to Revco doing a little tune up on the Carrillo rods while they were at the balance shop.

 

[RaceTec]

Looking good Barry! Can't wait to see this beast all together! :thumbsup

Paul, text me an address to send your extra piston to... You know how it goes, if you have it you will (Hopefully) never need it!