New member, old boat

[AngrySailor]

Hey guys first post checking in. Working on my early 70’s Hondo true flat which I’ve owned for near 20 years now but only hit the water again this past summer after work/moving/life put a hold on things for near 15 years... I’m making some big changes so figured I’d sign up and absorb some advice/knowledge.

The boat was gutted and new floors/stringers installed back in the early 2000’s, I rigged her up back then from a bare hull with an 800hp 489 BBC. She’s a 10* boat, engine forward (two seater) and has an 11 1/4” 15p steel two blade prop with 18% gears in the casale split case box.

The V-drive is a 12* box so the engine was rigged to compensate however it looked bad. I ran it back in the day like this but hated the look. Obviously a 10* box is the solution but this past summer I dropped the engine level and gave her a shot with a mild 454. I noticed no vibration or issues but she would only haul 6300rpm with that engine.

I’m currently in the process of building a blown/injected gas 598 BBC so I figure I need to change things up prop and/or gear wise as the 489 would blow the prop to 7200rpm on the hit. I’ve been in touch with JJ at Beaver Fab who I see posts here occasionally and he’s been very helpful. I’m planning to source some gears and a prop release kit from Beaver Fab this winter which now has me wondering if I should source parts for a 10* box or just roll with the 12* as it doesn’t seem to be an issue. Also is it just a matter of changing the case halves and using my internals or are the guts different? (gears are obviously different). I see some empty case halves on eBay occasionally...

I have no idea who’s prop I have but I discussed a swap to 25% or 29% gears with JJ and testing with my current prop. That’s a good cost effective option however I’m not against changing the prop either. I was considering the Ron Hill 11 1/4x16p as an option and am just looking for any input from those running similar rigs. It’s my understanding that prop rpm works better than increased pitch? My main concern is holding the 598 below 7400rpm on the whack. It should be a solid 1000+hp with a 14-71 and Enderle injection.

This is a Non competition boat but will see lots of 1/4 mile hits and some river cruising usually at 60+ mph, I am more interested in being 100+mph capable than cruising efficiency so a three blade doesn’t seem like a good option. I have NO vibration issues with the boat in either previous engine combination or angle at the moment.

Just putting the feelers out for possible parts and suggestions. I’ll see if I can figure out how to post a few pics. (Don’t make fun of my POS trailer... Its on the list to fix and tandem axle swap. I had to cut it apart and shoved the boat and trailer into a 26’ UHAUL van then tetrised half my shop stuff in with it. Hauled it 1200miles to its new home)...

Thanks guys

 

[TonyFanelli]

Great lookin float! @ Clank123 as well as numerous people on here are very knowledgeable. Your questions will most likely be answered on this site. Welcome aboard!

 

[Backlash]

It won't see 100mph with only a single axle trailer....

Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride!!

 

[AngrySailor]

Thanks guys. It sure is good to have dusted the old girl off and pulled it out of storage this past summer. It’s been far too long high and dry. The mild 454 was pieced together with all my left over parts and it’s taken all the abuse I can throw at it but it needs more power. The boat trimmed out way nicer with the 489, I could actually get on the up pedal and free it up, the mild 454 can’t carry the bow and you’re always on the down pedal to keep the porpoise out of it. I think i got the lack of power on the way to being sorted though... some pics fresh out of storage bird poop and all, also the “junk” ‘54 getting the marine treatment after spending the previous summer in my square body.

 

[AngrySailor]

Fuel system question for the Mechanical Injected guys... Fuel tank placement/surge tanks... How are you rigging your fuel systems? I have two 10gal tanks going side mounted using the original fill locations however the mechanical injection pump wants no suction head and the shortest possible inlet line. I was planning two small surge tanks mounted vertically either side of the injection pump, one which the injection pump draws from and another the injection system returns to, both connected a their bottoms by a large balance tube with a stand pipe in the suction side tank to keep any air crossing over well above the mechanical pumps suction. This would keep any return fuel aeration away from the pump suction. The return tank will be fed from the storage tanks with a 150gph electric pump, with the overflow returning to the storage tanks out of the tank which the mechanical pump draws from, I was planning to use a discriminator valve in the return tank to allow vapor to vent back to the storage tanks which when closed (no vapor present) would also cause a positive flow from the return tank to the suction tank at 150gph minus engine consumpsion. This would give the mechanical pump appoxamately 6" positive head pressure depending on how high I mount the surge tanks. Am I over complicating this? I just dont see many high mounted rear tanks feeding injection pumps and dont really care for that look either...

 

[AngrySailor]

Block for the 598 made a long trip but finally landed at my shop.

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

Fuel system question for the Mechanical Injected guys... Fuel tank placement/surge tanks... How are you rigging your fuel systems? I have two 10gal tanks going side mounted using the original fill locations however the mechanical injection pump wants no suction head and the shortest possible inlet line. I was planning two small surge tanks mounted vertically either side of the injection pump, one which the injection pump draws from and another the injection system returns to, both connected a their bottoms by a large balance tube with a stand pipe in the suction side tank to keep any air crossing over well above the mechanical pumps suction. This would keep any return fuel aeration away from the pump suction. The return tank will be fed from the storage tanks with a 150gph electric pump, with the overflow returning to the storage tanks out of the tank which the mechanical pump draws from, I was planning to use a discriminator valve in the return tank to allow vapor to vent back to the storage tanks which when closed (no vapor present) would also cause a positive flow from the return tank to the suction tank at 150gph minus engine consumpsion. This would give the mechanical pump appoxamately 6" positive head pressure depending on how high I mount the surge tanks. Am I over complicating this? I just dont see many high mounted rear tanks feeding injection pumps and dont really care for that look either...

On my old jet I had 2 11 gallon saddle tanks that fend into a 2.5 gallon bullet tank, the bullet tank had a carb bowl, which never allowed it to overfill. It was filled by a clay smith mechanical pump. The bullet tank gravity fed my enderle pump. Never had an issue with the setup. It worked perfectly for many years.

 

[AngrySailor]

On my old jet I had 2 11 gallon saddle tanks that fend into a 2.5 gallon bullet tank, the bullet tank had a carb bowl, which never allowed it to overfill. It was filled by a clay smith mechanical pump. The bullet tank gravity fed my enderle pump. Never had an issue with the setup. It worked perfectly for many years.

I’ve heard of this working but Kinsler specifically poo-poo’d any thought of that set up...

 

[AngrySailor]

Spoke with Kinsler this morning to check my parts order and they said the Holley float bowls can work in lower flow/smaller pump systems, they didn’t feel it would work in my application. I’m curious how the BGF/BAF systems are set up?

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

I'll try and find some better up close pictures, but this is how my jet was, it was on gas, my current boat is on m1, it's stupid simple the way it's set up. I'm only running 1 tank on it tho.

 

[AngrySailor]

I'll try and find some better up close pictures, but this is how my jet was, it was on gas, my current boat is on m1, it's stupid simple the way it's set up. I'm only running 1 tank on it tho.

That is bad azz. Thanks. You must have a big needle and seat in that bowl to flow enough fuel.

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

That is bad azz. Thanks. You must have a big needle and seat in that bowl to flow enough fuel.

Just used a regular xp bowl, never had an issue.

 

[AngrySailor]

Just used a regular xp bowl, never had an issue.

Awesome. Thanks for the pictures, that’s a real clean looking rig.

 

[n2otoofast4u]

The motor will only consume more fuel than your “lift” pump can pump when under full throttle. My surge tank is 2 gallons and is constantly fed with a Holley mechanical pump in the OEM location. The surge tank is constantly fed and gravity feeds back into saddle tanks. I have a valve on the inlet and outlet on the saddle tanks to control which side the fuel is returned to.

I specifically stayed away from electric lift pump for simplicity and the fact they will virtually always prime because the saddle tanks don't have baffles and the lift pump will suck air on let off as the fuel sloshes forward.

 

[Familyties]

Nice!!!

 

[AngrySailor]

The motor will only consume more fuel than your “lift” pump can pump when under full throttle. My surge tank is 2 gallons and is constantly fed with a Holley mechanical pump in the OEM location. The surge tank is constantly fed and gravity feeds back into saddle tanks. I have a valve on the inlet and outlet on the saddle tanks to control which side the fuel is returned to.

I specifically stayed away from electric lift pump for simplicity and the fact they will virtually always prime because the saddle tanks don't have baffles and the lift pump will suck air on let off as the fuel sloshes forward.

Thanks, My concern with running a OEM style pump without any float bowl was the diaphragm travelling full stroke as its free flowing fuel with no restriction. Maybe that’s not an issue and would definitely simplify things...

 

[n2otoofast4u]

Thanks, My concern with running a OEM style pump without any float bowl was the diaphragm travelling full stroke as its free flowing fuel with no restriction. Maybe that’s not an issue and would definitely simplify things...

That is not something I thought of but I suppose it could be a potential issue? Probably not something I’m going to worry much about.

 

[AngrySailor]

That is not something I thought of but I suppose it could be a potential issue? Probably not something I’m going to worry much about.

It’s probably not an issue, I was mostly concerned with fuel in the oil but it’s not like the side tanks are higher than the pump in case of a diaphragm issue it shouldn’t gravity feed into the oil pan, probably just keep an eye on the pumps weep hole and be fine. I would rather eliminate having an electric pump...

 

[n2otoofast4u]

This is the pump I used. I had to slot the motor plate just a bit to make room. It moves a pile of fuel!

 

[AngrySailor]

Nice. Whats the aeromotive pump for? Just a thought while bouncing "unconventional ideas" around (I have lots of time on night watch to come up with horrible ideas)... What about using a commonly available "in tank" pump/sending unit? Not trying to be cheap at all but pic attached is cheap as dirt, has a sender for fuel gauges and i could weld a flange in each tank with a fabricated drop in sump to help with fuel slosh, TIG some AN outlet fittings on too... It would also let me select which tank I'm drawing from with the throw of a switch then just use a single 3 way valve in the return from the surge tank. If one craps the bed the other hopefully doesn't at the same time... Just a thought...

 

[n2otoofast4u]

That’s an Aeromotive filter. That particular one is my final filter. I filter before the mechanical then filter again (with the one you see) after the high pressure pump (pushes through) before fuel heads to injectors.

As for the in tank deal, probably would work fine. I always try to take user error out of the equation. If they would come on with the same switch as ignition, ok. But if it’s a separate step, or separate switch to remember to turn on, I am fearful of forgetting and running the surge tank dry. It’s also adding more load to the battery and alternator. My program is very sensitive to good/clean power and I didn’t want to run a big alternator so the mechanical option was the route I took.

That all to say, I have a dipshit buddy go is building something very similar to mine and he elected to use a Holley Black electric pump as his program doesn’t have provisions for a mechanical pump on the block. I suspect it will work fine as well. You’re on the right track with the “lots of ways to skin the cat” on this deal.

 

[AngrySailor]

Been thinking about the in tank pump deal... it’s got some advantages, the pump is away from any bilge water, an inline pump likes to be gravity fed so the in tank pump eliminates bottom tapped tanks/dry priming issues too. Disadvantages would be cheap chinesium pumps as well as issues n2Otoofast4u mentioned about current draw and remembering the darn things. That’s probably not too much of an issue as I’m the only one in the drivers seat other than my pops when he’s feeling adventurous but I’m right with him.

I’m running a little 35a Denso alternator so power draw is a bit of an issue. I’m gearing up a water to water heat exchanger for cooling so I have an electric pump for the fresh water loop, I am looking at a belt driven raw water pump from Hardin marine for the raw water side just not sure I can slow it enough with pulley ratio to survive.

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

Why not run a cam driven water pump?

 

[AngrySailor]

Why not run a cam driven water pump?

Injection pump is in its place.

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

Injection pump is in its place.

Run a river rat or a splitter.

 

[AngrySailor]

Run a river rat or a splitter.

Run a river rat or a splitter.

Have you got any links to them? I found the mike kuhl river rat but are they still in production? Only impeller kits come up and I have no idea what a splittler is as nothing comes up when I search that. Thanks, I had considered one of these sandwich pumps but had heard there’s issues?

Edit: found them available to Performance Motorsports, This could be a real good option... Thanks

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

Have you got any links to them? I found the mike kuhl river rat but are they still in production? Only impeller kits come up and I have no idea what a splittler is as nothing comes up when I search that. Thanks, I had considered one of these sandwich pumps but had heard there’s issues?

Edit: found them available to Performance Motorsports, This could be a real good option... Thanks

I have one if they are out of stock.

 

[AngrySailor]

View attachment 1458822 View attachment 1458823
I have one if they are out of stock.

Thanks for the reply/pics. Now thats something I haven't seen before. Who makes that? I'm not sure that would fit well with the blower drive though? I have to get assembly started and begin mocking the drive up to see where things land I guess. I'm diggin' the River Rat for fitment though, I only have a beat up old Nicson V-505 pump with a cracked mechancial seal face and beat up impeller cover so replacing that with a river rat gets me a pump extension and pump in one shot while saving space between the blower belt. I ordered blower pulleys on the smaller side so space might be at a premium in there but thats an easy change. I'm running a drive hub, no harmonic damper, one V belt accessory pulley for the alternator, the river rat is apparently about 3 1/2" long which I think will get things clear of the blower drive nicely. I'll be starting assembly in January when I get home from working on the Great Lakes. The crankshaft is out for a balance touch up as I changed plans and went with blower pistons which were 58g lighter. Kinsler almost has my fuel system parts and pump ready to ship, got Brodix DS365 heads on order, those should be ready in January, went with Jesel shaft rockers cuz I love the T&D's I have on my 496 but I bought them nearly 20 years ago before their pricing went to the moon! I'm hoping I have enough camshaft for 598 cube to pull to 7400rpm , its probably a bit small but I have it on the shelf, Crower grind, 278/[email protected]" with 0.765" lift. I'll be tearing the blower apart and clearancing it for gasoline use this winter also. That should be interesting if not tedious. I've done some Detroit blowers over the years but its been a while!

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

Thanks for the reply/pics. Now thats something I haven't seen before. Who makes that? I'm not sure that would fit well with the blower drive though? I have to get assembly started and begin mocking the drive up to see where things land I guess. I'm diggin' the River Rat for fitment though, I only have a beat up old Nicson V-505 pump with a cracked mechancial seal face and beat up impeller cover so replacing that with a river rat gets me a pump extension and pump in one shot while saving space between the blower belt. I ordered blower pulleys on the smaller side so space might be at a premium in there but thats an easy change. I'm running a drive hub, no harmonic damper, one V belt accessory pulley for the alternator, the river rat is apparently about 3 1/2" long which I think will get things clear of the blower drive nicely. I'll be starting assembly in January when I get home from working on the Great Lakes. The crankshaft is out for a balance touch up as I changed plans and went with blower pistons which were 58g lighter. Kinsler almost has my fuel system parts and pump ready to ship, got Brodix DS365 heads on order, those should be ready in January, went with Jesel shaft rockers cuz I love the T&D's I have on my 496 but I bought them nearly 20 years ago before their pricing went to the moon! I'm hoping I have enough camshaft for 598 cube to pull to 7400rpm , its probably a bit small but I have it on the shelf, Crower grind, 278/[email protected]" with 0.765" lift. I'll be tearing the blower apart and clearancing it for gasoline use this winter also. That should be interesting if not tedious. I've done some Detroit blowers over the years but its been a while!

Check out alkydigger.com. They have a ton of cool stuff available. I'm not sure who made the one I have tho, it's pretty cool tho, my intention was to use it with my setup but we decided not to run a water pump.

 

[Eliminator21vdrive]

View attachment 1458822 View attachment 1458823
I have one if they are out of stock.

Looks like a dual mag drive?

 

[@BigRedBryan13]

Looks like a dual mag drive?
View attachment 1459478

Yeah same thing basically.

 

[AngrySailor]

Santa came to the ship today...