Ive gone and done something incredibly stupid.

[Shlbyntro]

Well I can settle this debate right quick. I get asked fairly often why the hell im a Ford guy. I tell them its because I fix broken chevys for a living.




mike drop.


In all seriousness though. I know a bunch of you guys like to bust my balls and give me crap for being a purist. I'm going to restrain myself and say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And guys don't get me wrong, I'm not a concourse quality classic car guy, but I do believe in preserving the image of the car as it would have been back in the day on the outside, and on the inside. To me, that means keeping a like branded engine under the hood and one that is of era. It also means, no technology that is more than 10 years newer than than the car as I feel that is a reasonable modification that could have naturally happened back in the day. The stuff where I will flirt with my own line is:

1: a late model 5.0L HO where a 289, 260, or in my case here a 221 used to be. That doesn't bother me so long as the new motor is changed to outwardly appear to be an original looking motor. I prefer electronic distributors over points but I will hide the 2nd wire so I don't have to look at it.

2: stereos, I like my stereos and like quality sound. That usually means speakers that don't look like they belong in something older. I will do my best to pick something classy looking and matching to the style and era of the car as best I can but thats nearly an impossibility. This car will be getting one of the new vintage looking decks with the flip screen and built in bluetooth ill likely only be putting 2 speakers in the car on the flat space behind the rear bench.

3: brakes, safety is more important than abiding to period correctness. This car is equipped with manual 4 wheel drums on the inside of the original 13" steelys. I havent decided what I'm going to do there yet because to me, the smaller the wheels the better but it does severely limit what I will be able to do to make any brake improvements. I promise that there will not be Brembos behind 19" wheels though.

And I might drop a vintage air unit in the car at some point.

 

[MK1MOD0]

Completely agree on the brakes. That’s one area where newer is definitely better. Even if ya went to 14”wheels to get some modern discs on it, it really wouldn’t change the look.

 

[Don Johnson]

Very cool car!

I have a 67 Fairlane XL500 convertible w/ a 427 FE in it

 

[coolchange]

13s, so its a 4 bolt wheel? Just don’t put mustang mags on it. Sounds like you’re doin it the way I’m doin my shellcamino. Couple of voice frequency tuned speakers in the dash hole with radio shack speaker grills on the deck and under dash AC! Lol

 

[rivermobster]

Nah, 500lbs/ft is 500lbs/ft of torque, the difference is in the 60's that 500lbs/ft was done at 3-3500 rpms and now that 500lbs/ft goes to about 4000 and for the most part flattens instead of falling off.

There aren't a whole lot of engines today that get close to 500ft lb of torque...

The LS7, (427ci), gets close at 470. And thats a variable valve timing, tuned to the max, high tech designed engine!

Torque comes from stroke. Big blocks for the win every time. But...

Let's say we were talking about a 454 big block. That came stock with 500ft lb of torque...

If that engine isn't tuned properly, it won't get close to max torque, at Any RPM!

Valve timing (cam profiles) are what determine where the power curve will be. That's why today's variable valve timing engines have a more or less flat power band, the computer is controlling spark, fuel, ignition timing And valve timing. The computer determines where the power will be at all times, with 100 percent variable tuning.

Old school engines are only have spark timing control, and it's determined by a couple of springs and some weights.

It's an apples to oranges comparison any way you slice it. And again, the tuning is everything, in both cases. Except today, it's done with a laptop instead of a timing light and a box full of jets, springs and power valves!



In any case, I'm glad the OP's EFI if going bye bye. And that's just my 2cents in this particular situation.

 

[Canuck 1]

That was an amazing era of drag racing.
I thought the 409/409 Biscayne was a pretty even match for the Thunderbolt, even though the Thunderbolt was superior in factory support (lightweight/fiberglass/stripped) and had a 100HP on the 409 (supposedly). I love old sleepers!

The 409 couldn't even get close enough to read the license plate on a Tbolt

 

[MK1MOD0]

The 409 couldn't even get close enough to read the license plate on a Tbolt

You guys are forgetting all about the 421 Pontiac’s ! Those Tempest were sum bad mofos. And won a LOT of races.

 

[SBMech]

The 409 couldn't even get close enough to read the license plate on a Tbolt

True, hard to read a plate in the rearview mirror when you are smashing gears and stomping a ferd.

 

[Canuck 1]

You guys are forgetting all about the 421 Pontiac’s ! Those Tempest were sum bad mofos. And won a LOT of races.

Everyone gets lucky once in a while.....

 

[4Waters]

True, hard to read a plate in the rearview mirror when you are smashing gears and stomping a ferd.

Yeah you know the Impala ran 12.8 slicked and the Thunder Bolt ran 11.8, that's an ass whoopin for the bow tie

 

[SBMech]

Yeah you know the Impala ran 12.8 slicked and the Thunder Bolt ran 11.8, that's an ass whoopin for the bow tie

Impala weighs a bit more than a Biscayne...but yea. Thunderbolts were the ultimate answer in stock class until the late 60's when GM weighed in for real.

 

[Rajobigguy]

Yeah you know the Impala ran 12.8 slicked and the Thunder Bolt ran 11.8, that's an ass whoopin for the bow tie

All manufacturers had their high point but I'm going to have to side with you on this one. I've been around the drag strip my whole life and as best as can recall I never saw a 409 running better than about 12.50 and Tbolts as delivered were low 11's. I have seen some heavily modified and stripped down 409 biscayne's run at that level but then again I've seen highly modified T-bolts breaking the 10 sec. barrier. As a matter of fact I saw one break that barrier in the next lane over against my 10 Second Comet.

 

[4Waters]

All manufacturers had their high point but I'm going to have to side with you on this one. I've been around the drag strip my whole life and as best as can recall I never a 409 running better than about 12.50 and Tbolts as delivered were low 11's. I have seen some heavily modified and stripped down 409 biscayne's run at that level but then again I've seen highly modified T-bolts breaking the 10 sec. barrier. As a matter of fact I saw one break that barrier in the next lane over against my 10 Second Comet.

Seen a T-bolt run several times at LACR but never got the chance to run against it, the closest I got was me sitting in the bleach box watching it make a pass in front of me. I would have been honored to take an ass whoopin from it.

 

[MK1MOD0]

In 1963 Arlen Vanke held the record in A/FX in a 421 Tempest. 11.89 @ 123.11 mph. That’s cookin In ‘63. A Tempest also won the championship in 63. The next year GM shut the program down.

 

[MK1MOD0]

BTW. I really dig the early 60’s muscle. There is a local guy with a Thunderbolt replica . I drool over that car.

 

[4Waters]

In 1963 Arlen Vanke held the record in A/FX in a 421 Tempest. 11.89 @ 123.11 mph. That’s cookin In ‘63. A Tempest also won the championship in 63. The next year GM shut the program down.

Just like when GM shut down Buick in 1987 when the Grand National stomped GM's flagship sports car, the Corvette

 

[SBMech]

Just like when GM shut down Buick in 1987 when the Grand National stomped GM's flagship sports car, the Corvette

Yea that was rough when they had the Grand National, the Typhoon and the Cyclone all with the amazing little 3.8L Turbo that dick punched everyone in the smog dog days!

 

[coolchange]

BTW. I really dig the early 60’s muscle. There is a local guy with a Thunderbolt replica . I drool over that car.

Local to what? @pixrthis dad has a real nice one in Santa Clarita.

 

[MK1MOD0]

San Diego county. It’s a bitchen car. And with that nasty cam and exhaust. it’s just too cool.

 

[4Waters]

Yea that was rough when they had the Grand National, the Typhoon and the Cyclone all with the amazing little 3.8L Turbo that dick punched everyone in the smog dog days!

I mean it wasn't even close, the Corvette ran 14.5 and the Grand National ran 13.5

 

[4Waters]

Yea that was rough when they had the Grand National, the Typhoon and the Cyclone all with the amazing little 3.8L Turbo that dick punched everyone in the smog dog days!

I mean it wasn't even close, the Corvette ran 14.5 and the Grand National ran 13.5

 

[redone76]

Local to what? @pixrthis dad has a real nice one in Santa Clarita.

That’s true...I’ve seen it!

 

[Shlbyntro]

So I just officially insured the car through Haggerty. It was my first experience with them.

I plugged all the information into their website and it came back at $486 for the year. A fucking steal when progressive wanted over $1,600 for the exact same coverage. It all just seamed too smooth and easy (and cheap) and I felt like I fucked something up so I called them and asked for somebody to go over the quote with me to make sure we got everything right.

Sure no problem. It says here you said the cars been modified, what modifications does it have? Well it has a 302 with a fuel injection conversion and an automatic transmission conversion. Oh ok let me get with my underwriter real quick so I can make sure this doesn't affect your policy. Well sir, it did affect your policy. My underwriter does not consider those to be modifications and it dropped your rate to $281/yr for full coverage and compreshensive which includes unlimited emergency roadside service and tows up to 20 miles and a $0 deductible

HOLY FUCK AAA+++ TO HAGGERTY!!!!

 

[Shlbyntro]

View attachment 969563

A good friend of mine is going to get kick out of this lol

 

[4Waters]

So I just officially insured the car through Haggerty. It was my first experience with them.

I plugged all the information into their website and it came back at $486 for the year. A fucking steal when progressive wanted over $1,600 for the exact same coverage. It all just seamed too smooth and easy (and cheap) and I felt like I fucked something up so I called them and asked for somebody to go over the quote with me to make sure we got everything right.

Sure no problem. It says here you said the cars been modified, what modifications does it have? Well it has a 302 with a fuel injection conversion and an automatic transmission conversion. Oh ok let me get with my underwriter real quick so I can make sure this doesn't affect your policy. Well sir, it did affect your policy. My underwriter does not consider those to be modifications and it dropped your rate to $281/yr for full coverage and compreshensive which includes unlimited emergency roadside service and tows up to 20 miles and a $0 deductible

HOLY FUCK AAA+++ TO HAGGERTY!!!!

I have Haggerty for my '69, awesome pricing and since I live in California the policy has earthquake coverage automatically

 

[OCMerrill]

I mean it wasn't even close, the Corvette ran 14.5 and the Grand National ran 13.5

Back in 89 GM stuck that GNX engine in a Firebird for an Indi 500 Pace Car edition. Thought I would see that for years to come but nope. I'm thinking Corvette envy killed any hopes of higher than a "Collector Car" production run.

 

[Canuck 1]

Yeah you know the Impala ran 12.8 slicked and the Thunder Bolt ran 11.8, that's an ass whoopin for the bow tie

T bolt runs 9.89 , 61 409 runs 12.36

 

[Canuck 1]

All manufacturers had their high point but I'm going to have to side with you on this one. I've been around the drag strip my whole life and as best as can recall I never saw a 409 running better than about 12.50 and Tbolts as delivered were low 11's. I have seen some heavily modified and stripped down 409 biscayne's run at that level but then again I've seen highly modified T-bolts breaking the 10 sec. barrier. As a matter of fact I saw one break that barrier in the next lane over against my 10 Second Comet.

Brand new off the trailer the T bolt ran a 11.23 in 1964, and better once tuned

 

[SBMech]

T bolt runs 9.89 , 61 409 runs 12.36

Brand new off the trailer the T bolt ran a 11.23 in 1964, and better once tuned

You should post up the race that those times were documented at, legitimate race times that I am posting below are the only official times I can find.

"The Thunderbolt, as tested with a four-speed transmission at Lions Drag Strip in November 1963, ran a 1⁄4 mile (402 m) of 11.61 seconds at 124.8 mph (201 km/h).[13]

Thunderbolts faced off in the final of the 1964 NHRA Winternationals, driven by Butch Leal and Gas Ronda; Ronda took the win, with a pass of 11.78 seconds at 123.40 mph (198.59 km/h).[14] Ronda's Thunderbolt would go on to claim NHRA's national Top Stock crown that year.[15]

At the 1967 NHRA Winternationals, a factory Thunderbolt ran a 1⁄4 mile (402 m) of 10.365 seconds at 132.65 mph (213 km/h),[16] making it among the fastest–accelerating production cars over the quarter mile."

"The Z11 409 won several races in 62: the quickest times were in Tampa, FL. 11/25/62 F/X Hubert Platt '62 Z11 11.69 @ 117 and Long Beach, CA. 12/1/62 F/X H. Proffitt '62 Z11 11.75 @ 117."

Could not find any documentation about them runnin 9's.

 

[SBMech]

Yeah you know the Impala ran 12.8 slicked and the Thunder Bolt ran 11.8, that's an ass whoopin for the bow tie

As you see, the Biscayne 409's were quite a bit faster than the impigla, 11.69 was quick as shit, considering they gave up around 180HP to the 427 in the Thunderbolt.

The 67 Winternational car that ran a 10.3 was heavily modified.

 

[Don Johnson]

Cool thread and topics!

My dads good friend Phil Featherston I believe holds the fastest Thunderbolt crown with a Panella prepped 427 hi riser powerplant, somewhere in the 9's.

My dad has been on Panella's ranch in central Cal and his facility and dyno room is pretty awesome.

 

[Canuck 1]

You should post up the race that those times were documented at, legitimate race times that I am posting below are the only official times I can find.

"The Thunderbolt, as tested with a four-speed transmission at Lions Drag Strip in November 1963, ran a 1⁄4 mile (402 m) of 11.61 seconds at 124.8 mph (201 km/h).[13]

Thunderbolts faced off in the final of the 1964 NHRA Winternationals, driven by Butch Leal and Gas Ronda; Ronda took the win, with a pass of 11.78 seconds at 123.40 mph (198.59 km/h).[14] Ronda's Thunderbolt would go on to claim NHRA's national Top Stock crown that year.[15]

At the 1967 NHRA Winternationals, a factory Thunderbolt ran a 1⁄4 mile (402 m) of 10.365 seconds at 132.65 mph (213 km/h),[16] making it among the fastest–accelerating production cars over the quarter mile."

"The Z11 409 won several races in 62: the quickest times were in Tampa, FL. 11/25/62 F/X Hubert Platt '62 Z11 11.69 @ 117 and Long Beach, CA. 12/1/62 F/X H. Proffitt '62 Z11 11.75 @ 117."

Could not find any documentation about them runnin 9's.

My numbers are from last fall on cars that have been in the family since new

 

[SBMech]

Brand new off the trailer the T bolt ran a 11.23 in 1964, and better once tuned

It's amazing that right off the trailer, with no mods, slicks etc you were able to put Uncle or Granny in a stock as delivered Thunderbolt that ripped off a time faster than the winning SS 1964 NHRA Winternationals, driven by Butch Leal and Gas Ronda; Ronda took the win, with a pass of 11.78 seconds at 123.40 mph , that was a factory supported effort.

I'd love to see some footage! The Road And Track test was only able to get to 11.61 with a professional driver.

"The Thunderbolt, as tested with a four-speed transmission at Lions Drag Strip in November 1963, ran a 1⁄4 mile (402 m) of 11.61 seconds at 124.8 mph (201 km/h).[13]

 

[4Waters]

Saw a '64 Fairlane today, clean little stocker with a little old lady driving it.


Edit: I was right next to Pasadena, it may not have been stock, may have been a sleeper, she could have been the Little Old Lady from Pasadena

 

[chvynhra]

 

[Shlbyntro]

Well I ordered some parts from rock auto for the car so I could work on it this weekend. Water pump, tstat, plenum gasket so I can run the injectors, iac gaskets so I can install my tunable iac bypass, spark plugs, and exhaust manifold gaskets. I paid for express 2day shipping which cost more than the parts themselves, and all my shit is in Cincinnati.

But I did find a nice set of replacement headlight trim pieces. The passenger side (oh sorry this is a boating forum, I mean the starboard side) one is damaged. $80 on Ebay, so there's that....

 

[SBMech]

That's Don Johnson's friend's car! Super cool!

"original T-bolt, 496" Hi-Riser loaned to me by Jim & Jackie Gonia for these runs. Built by Panella Motorsports makes 919 hp, C-4 and 8" converter by Len Schneider, 4.30 rear 3375# with driver."

Hehe..just slightly warmed over from stock....

 

[ford 4x429]

I have a buddy up here. Got a Keith Craft 496 side oiler...4 spd in a 66 Fairlane ...was off the hook for street car.... I'll reach out and try to get some pics

 

[Shlbyntro]

I found out today that the car's name is Casper. The guy I bought it from had to ask his 70yr old Aunt who also used to drive the car. Im going to honor the name. Also after spending all day running around, I found all the parts I needed. But was too late to start work. But I have tomorrow...

 

[Shlbyntro]

Bunch of work today. And sadly mostly for not. To solve a rough cold idle, I replaced the spark plugs and ran the injectors on the machine. I also happened to have a nifty little old ford recall part handy. I remember finding that bastard online when I was having idle surge on the mustang after I changed the cam years ago. Its an idle air adjustment plate that is installed between the IAC and the Throttle body and can be adjusted to reduce the effectiveness of the IAC. They're great for cammed efi motors that don't want to idle. So, injectors, spark plugs, iac adapter plate and idle solved. For good measure, while I had the engine partially apart I replaced the tstat and waterpump. Parts were cheap and it was worth a shot, a $50.00 "let's see what happens" type of deal.

Unfortunately still getting hot. I'm gonna put a fan in front of the car while its running tomorrow to test the fan shroud idea. I don't think its going to solve it though. After a short 15 minute drive around the area with plenty of air movement she was already running 215 but was sitting there for what its worth. I watched it with a temp gun as it idled and let it creep up to 225 before shutting it down. You will notice my 3/16 hole in the new tstat for no chances taken. I let it cool down while I cleaned up from the days work. And went back out and fired it up. I was watching both heads with the temp gun think maybe possibly a flipped head gasket on the new motor. But no, they were both heating up perfectly evenly, shut down again at 195.

So the kicker is the fuel injection isn't happy, something about this motor setup just isn't jigging with the FI. I found the engine timing set at 19degrees base, and it would die at anything below 16. I can't tell you whats wrong with the conversion but somethings wrong. Its jumping the timing way the hell advanced once I take it out of base timing mode..... I really don't care to spend the time to diagnose these junkyard parts either it could be 1 of 20 things and I have no idea what the history is on any of them or if they even all came off the same car.

Fixed the exhaust leak at the manifold on the drivers side too. Turns out it was masking a lifter tick somewhere near the middle of the motor as well. So heads have to come off to pull the lifters and replace them. I might as well roller the motor while I'm in there...

This engine is getting stripped down to short block. And if its all coming apart. A carburetor is going back on. I didn't want to convert it back immediately but it looks like its gonna happen that way.

Enough can't be said about good engine builders and knowing you can trust that you have a solid foundation to start with because when you don't have one, you have to go through everything checking the builders work when you have problems like this. My hats off to all our RDP engine builders! A much deserved kudos. Us mechanics take yall for granted far too often.

 

[SBMech]

What are you running for the radiator? Lots of issues with aftermarket 4 core aluminum doing too much cooling, not enough time with a high flow pump to let any heat exchange occur because coolant runs too fast through it.

Since you had it apart I assume you did not smell exhaust in the coolant, a cracked head or blown compression ring into a coolant jacket makes it overheat pretty fast, but is pretty stinky, you can smell it easily without even dye or waving a 4 gas wand over it.

Is it a solid fan? Does it have a decent shroud? Even mechanically sound motors will heat up pretty quick with weak air flow at idle. Modern shit takes forever to get there, but then you are talking about clean mostly aluminum/plastic components with a single row aluminum radiator that disperses massive amounts of radiant heat, before fans even come into play.

Last thoughts, some of the less expensive china crap is plugged half solid if you cut it apart, have you done a simple volume test with the radiator?

Plug the lower outlet, fill it up. Unplug it, it should drain in less than 10 seconds, almost completely, if it streams instead of dumps there is a good place to start looking.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Absolutely no shroud which is why I want to put a floor fan in front of it tomorrow. It doesn't seem to make a bit of difference if its sitting still or driving at 55. It jumps up to 185 real quick and then just slowly creeps up from there. The radiator is a brand new copper core. I have no idea of the brand though. If you ask me, its fucking tiny. It literally has half the surface area of the one out of my Mustang. I'm hard pressed to believe that it couldn't cool a 200hp 302 with optimal conditions and easy driving when it was designed to cool a 150hp 221 v8. Coolant came out of it just dandy when pulled the hose to drain it today. Solid steel rad fan no clutch.Im thinking I either need a 4 core aluminum (I know I absolutely need a fan shroud but don't think its my root issue, just a contributing one) or the timing is so far advanced on the engine that its heating itself up. As soon as I pull it out of base timing mode, the timing shoots up to 24degrees at 900rpm I know my Mustang never did that and this is the same ecm and fuel injection it originally had

 

[4Waters]

Absolutely no shroud which is why I want to put a floor fan in front of it tomorrow. It doesn't seem to make a bit of difference if its sitting still or driving at 55. It jumps up to 185 real quick and then just slowly creeps up from there. The radiator is a brand new copper core. I have no idea of the brand though. If you ask me, its fucking tiny. It literally has half the surface area of the one out of my Mustang. I'm hard pressed to believe that it couldn't cool a 200hp 302 with optimal conditions and easy driving when it was designed to cool a 150hp 221 v8. Coolant came out of it just dandy when pulled the hose to drain it today. Solid steel rad fan no clutch.Im thinking I either need a 4 core aluminum (I know I absolutely need a fan shroud but don't think its my root issue, just a contributing one) or the timing is so far advanced on the engine that its heating itself up. As soon as I pull it out of base timing mode, the timing shoots up to 24degrees at 900rpm I know my Mustang never did that and this is the same ecm and fuel injection it originally had

What is base timing? You are remembering to pull the PIP right?

 

[coolchange]

I know I not gonna tell you much but unless that fan is sitting right on the radiator all the air coming off the fan is doing is going around in circles. I had a square body that was doing that. I made a half shroud and that cured it. The air comes off one side then circles 180 and comes back in the front.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Ya but that would only solve low speed overheating. This engine doesn't care. It behaves the same standing or doing 55.

I found base timing at 19 in base timing mode. I couldn't turn it down any lower than 16 without the engine dying. Once plugged back in, timing runs up to 24degrees at 900rpm. And I know for fact that timing should be hunting between 6-18 at idle. No where near 24.

 

[4Waters]

Ya but that would only solve low speed overheating. This engine doesn't care. It behaves the same standing or doing 55.

I found base timing at 19 in base timing mode. I couldn't turn it down any lower than 16 without the engine dying. Once plugged back in, timing runs up to 24degrees at 900rpm. And I know for fact that timing should be hunting between 6-18 at idle. No where near 24.

Ok so a couple things to check, I would check TDC at the piston and make sure it lines up on the balancer, if not then it could be the wrong balancer or the balancer has spun a little, I have come across both scenarios, both on a 302 and a spun balancer on a SBC.

 

[Dkahnjob]

Baby ThunderBolt!
I like it.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Ok so a couple things to check, I would check TDC at the piston and make sure it lines up on the balancer, if not then it could be the wrong balancer or the balancer has spun a little, I have come across both scenarios, both on a 302 and a spun balancer on a SBC.

Yep, it could even be a 5.0 balancer with a 302 timing mark. No matter which way I slice it, I gotta pull the heads to address the collapsed lifters at which point I might as well change the cam to something more to my liking. The only things that are for sure on this motor is that it has good oil pressure and all cylinders are hitting. Beyond that, I dont trust a damn thing. Best to tear it down in the car and just make it right.

Maybe ole Casper is just telling me that it wants its carburetor back!

 

[Shlbyntro]

Carburetor conversion parts ordered

Somebody turned me on to the quick fuel carbs in my Cobra thread. Well I ordered another. Except this is a mild cruiser car so I went with a 600cfm vacuum secondary, elec. choke carb. Summit intake, summit ready to run distributor, basic 45,000v coil, return style fuel pressure regulator, summit branded mild/moderate cam with lifters, timing cover with the fuel pump delete, "289HiPo" engine dress up kit with air cleaner.

Oh I also found a great core exchange head company. "Cylinder heads international" out of the Dallas area. I know my engine is supposed to be "new" but I just don't trust anything about it and wanted to have them gone through just to be safe. Well as it turns out, I was able to get a pair of C8TEs that are fully rebuilt with all new components for $440 shipped to me within 3 days so I said screw it.

With any luck it'll all be here for this next upcoming weekend. I figure one day to tear down and redress the motor, and one day to rewire the engine room back to stock

 

[Shlbyntro]

Hey guys with these things:

what size rear wheels, tires, and offset are you running. I think I want to shackle it and put some wider meats in the back but i don't want to mess with the body panels at all. I can take the opportunity to put some slightly larger wheels on it too to accommodate a small set of discs up front