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Howard 22 Offshore Planing

Chili Palmer

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I recently upgraded to a Howard 22 Offshore and love it. It's got the 496 HO with a Bravo 1X and runs great, but it seems to take a while to get up on plane. I've tried playing with the trim tabs, but they don't seem to do much good coming out of the hole. It also seems to be prone to porpoise-nosing in semi rough water with the drive all the way down and the tabs adjusted.

I've been toying with idea of installing K-Planes to see if that would do the trick. I did some searching before I posted this and it seems that the K-Planes would help with the porpoise-nosing, but I didn't see anything about helping it to plane quicker.

Then there is the question about orientation. Do I follow the contour of the hull or do I keep them parallel to the water?


Thanks in advance.
 

Chestah Cheetah

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Let's back up for a second before you go drilling holes and spending money. What size prop are you running? Might be too big??
 

Scott E

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Gene might have an idea of what to do...
 

Chili Palmer

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Let's back up for a second before you go drilling holes and spending money. What size prop are you running? Might be too big??

I really don't know. I'll check next weekend when head out to Parker to visit the boat.
 

Chestah Cheetah

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I've been in larger/heavier boats with the same engine/drive package that get up on plane normally. Should be a good setup. Something doesn't add up.
 

TCHB

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I've been in larger/heavier boats with the same engine/drive package that get up on plane normally. Should be a good setup. Something doesn't add up.


I had a Howard 22 Offshore and I think I ran a 4 Blade 22 Pitch prop which planning was never a problem.
 

GregG

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I really don't know. I'll check next weekend when head out to Parker to visit the boat.

You don't know what style of prop or what size? Do you know if it a 3 blade or 4 blade?
 

GregG

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You have a lot of prop experimenting to do before anything else. What year is the 220? Does it have the forward Delta Pad and notched transom or is it the straight 22 degree V?
 

Chili Palmer

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You have a lot of prop experimenting to do before anything else. What year is the 220? Does it have the forward Delta Pad and notched transom or is it the straight 22 degree V?

It's a 2002 with the delta pad.
 

Chili Palmer

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Does the transom have a notch?

Here's a couple of pics I've pulled of my phone:

IMG_1298.jpg IMG_1299.jpg
 

FreeBird236

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Gene might have an idea of what to do...

This is who I'd ck with. As has already stated this doesn't seem right. I have the same engine and drive in a 236 Eliminator, even with everyone in the back, it's on plane in about 3 sec. with the 24 or 26 4 blade Bravo 1, with no trim tabs. This may seem obvious, but are you trimming all the way in?
 

RiverDave

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I will ask a fairly obvious question.. Trouble planing compared to what? Are you comparing it to a smaller shallower vee like an ultra? Or ? Deeper vee boats especially shorter ones with a big block tend to drag ass getting on plane compared to smaller shallower vee's.. Start with prop pitch though as suggested. I would t imagine it would struggle with a 22 or a 24..
 

BasilHayden

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Chili,

I have a 92' 22 and it is an interesting boat. Granted I have a lot more motor, about 700hp currently running a 24P( its a nicely built LS6 with a B&M 250 blower and merlin heads), but here is what I discovered after a bit of trial and error with Bob JeanBlanc of BJ's marine.

Planing, It jumps up pretty good, but I need the drive all the way down, I mean all the way. As it planes I have the trim switch in hand and start pouring on the trim until it has quite a bit. If I don't have the drive ALL the way down it will take a few seconds to roll over. In addition, you have to get on the power pretty decent, If I don't it starts leaning like crazy, perhaps you've seen this as well at lower speed. By the way, speed more than anything is what cures the lean. But if the lean is bothering you as it was me, I swear there were times I thought I was going to drop out of the boat. BJ discovered a significant fix was available by reversing the rotation of the prop. BJ accomplished this, so at the helm I don't put it in reverse to go forward, or visa versa, but god help the bastard that puts a standard rotation prop on this boat and tries to blow out of the marina, lol.

Trim tabs, well I have big dana tabs that are flat to the water, yes we tried them at the angle of the bottom, just don't do it, trust me. I hope BJ will chime in with his 2 cents. Now I barely use tabs other than to balance the load of the passengers. After talking with Gene at Howard, he mentioned "you know, once on plane that boat is very stable, it just doesn't like to go slow...". Well after a few years with it, I absolutely agree. This boat cruises from 40 to 60 like a much bigger hull, it should, according to Gene it was a 24 schiada :eek (seriously look at it next to the ultimate 24 schiada, he wasn't joking), with the rear 2 feet cut off to meet class for the catalina race. However under 30 it wants to fall off plane, at 2500 rmp I can barely keep her on plane. At 3000 rpm Im doing around 40. But be careful over 70, she does chine walk a bit, in fact ask BJ, he was a bit twitchy after we took it past 75. Gene kind of chuckled when I mentioned that, he said, yes you have about all the motor you need in that hull. Yes it will do 80 as is, but it gets interesting!

Anyways I love this boat, and laughed as "player" was looking for his ultimate boat. In this size range the Howard is close to as good as it gets. I grew up on a 22 schiada day cruiser, it was great, but I have to say the Howard is pretty f...ing good.

Oh yeah, enjoy my desert storm pic, courtesy of Pink Taco, I love this boat, even with the pink stripe!

Howard 2013 Desert Storm (2).jpg
 

GregG

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Here's a couple of pics I've pulled of my phone

It is hard to tell from the angle you took the photo, you'd have to take it lower, almost looking "up" at the bottom. Here is a pic of a small hull with a "Notch" and a pad. The "Notch" is an inset cut on the transom keel of anywhere from 1" to 12". See if you have that on that on yours.
 
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GregG

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Chili, I have a 92' 22 and it is an interesting boat. Granted I have a lot more motor, about 700hp currently running a 24P. Trim tabs, well I have big dana tabs that are flat to the water, yes we tried them at the angle of the bottom, just don't do it, trust me.

Some really great info from BasilHayden. One thing to note though is that BH's 220 Offshore hull bottom is different than your 220 hull bottom. His is a straight V right to the transom. Notice he is running 24pitch with 700hp. Bourbon man, what model prop is your 24P? Is it a Bravo 1 4 blade?
 

GregG

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Chili, I have a 92' 22 and it is an interesting boat. Planing, It jumps up pretty good, but I need the drive all the way down, I mean all the way. As it planes I have the trim switch in hand and start pouring on the trim until it has quite a bit. If I don't have the drive ALL the way down it will take a few seconds to roll over.

Spot on, you must have the drive all the way in because the 220's have so much bow angle dead rise. The same bow angle cut that gives you that soft ride in rough water is a drag on the hull coming up on plane. It will grab and fight the water until you get it "up and over" and start to carry that wave crusher bow. Tuck in the drive all the way, until there is no more negative trim :thumbup:
 
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GregG

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According to Gene it was a 24 Schiada (seriously look at it next to the ultimate 24 schiada, he wasn't joking) with the rear 2 feet cut off to meet class for the Catalina race

The 220 Offshore's origins actually came directly from the Vaughn 22, not the Schiada 24. Picture below offers an interesting comparison ;)
 
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GregG

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Once we know exactly what hull bottom you have on your 2002 Howard 220 Offshore more prop options can be suggested :champagne:
 

BLOWN HOWARD

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Chili,

I have a 92' 22 and it is an interesting boat. Granted I have a lot more motor, about 700hp currently running a 24P( its a nicely built LS6 with a B&M 250 blower and merlin heads), but here is what I discovered after a bit of trial and error with Bob JeanBlanc of BJ's marine.

Planing, It jumps up pretty good, but I need the drive all the way down, I mean all the way. As it planes I have the trim switch in hand and start pouring on the trim until it has quite a bit. If I don't have the drive ALL the way down it will take a few seconds to roll over. In addition, you have to get on the power pretty decent, If I don't it starts leaning like crazy, perhaps you've seen this as well at lower speed. By the way, speed more than anything is what cures the lean. But if the lean is bothering you as it was me, I swear there were times I thought I was going to drop out of the boat. BJ discovered a significant fix was available by reversing the rotation of the prop. BJ accomplished this, so at the helm I don't put it in reverse to go forward, or visa versa, but god help the bastard that puts a standard rotation prop on this boat and tries to blow out of the marina, lol.

Trim tabs, well I have big dana tabs that are flat to the water, yes we tried them at the angle of the bottom, just don't do it, trust me. I hope BJ will chime in with his 2 cents. Now I barely use tabs other than to balance the load of the passengers. After talking with Gene at Howard, he mentioned "you know, once on plane that boat is very stable, it just doesn't like to go slow...". Well after a few years with it, I absolutely agree. This boat cruises from 40 to 60 like a much bigger hull, it should, according to Gene it was a 24 schiada :eek (seriously look at it next to the ultimate 24 schiada, he wasn't joking), with the rear 2 feet cut off to meet class for the catalina race. However under 30 it wants to fall off plane, at 2500 rmp I can barely keep her on plane. At 3000 rpm Im doing around 40. But be careful over 70, she does chine walk a bit, in fact ask BJ, he was a bit twitchy after we took it past 75. Gene kind of chuckled when I mentioned that, he said, yes you have about all the motor you need in that hull. Yes it will do 80 as is, but it gets interesting!

Anyways I love this boat, and laughed as "player" was looking for his ultimate boat. In this size range the Howard is close to as good as it gets. I grew up on a 22 schiada day cruiser, it was great, but I have to say the Howard is pretty f...ing good.

Oh yeah, enjoy my desert storm pic, courtesy of Pink Taco, I love this boat, even with the pink stripe!

View attachment 287379
I still kick my self for selling this boat. And glad you got that lean problem figured out it always bothered me but it was just an excuse to not go slow for me.
 

Chili Palmer

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I appreciate all the comments and responses. From what I remember (I've only had the boat a couple of months and it's stored at the river), the hull has the notch and the pad as shown in your picture. I know that for sure, as the drain plug is back about foot and on the edge of the pad.

I'll get some detailed pics when I'm at the river next weekend.
 

BasilHayden

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Some really great info from BasilHayden. One thing to note though is that BH's 220 Offshore hull bottom is different than your 220 hull bottom. His is a straight V right to the transom. Notice he is running 24pitch with 700hp. Bourbon man, what model prop is your 24P? Is it a Bravo 1 4 blade?

That's right, "a Bravo 1 4 blade" just spinning the opposite direction. Definitely not to much prop for this motor, it will run right up past 5500, of course that's when it gets a bit interesting so it isn't often that you pull past that. btw nice catch on "bourbon man". I think you may be the first that has made that link. Don't drink it as much these days, but was my favorite bourbon back when I had restaurants. So smooth its scary.
 

BasilHayden

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I still kick my self for selling this boat. And glad you got that lean problem figured out it always bothered me but it was just an excuse to not go slow for me.

Hopefully you get a chance someday to see how well she cleaned up. So far I've completely done the interior, stereo, and helm; in addition to the work figuring out the lean issues and in the process beefing up the drive a bit. Next year I'll probably go through the motor. Its still running strong. but I'm sure its time. :D
 

Marine Industries West

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BasilHayden told it pretty straight on this boat. A great boat, a 22 footer that everyone thinks is a 24 or 25. It's big, roomy, and rides like a Cadillac. When Andy first brought the boat in, we were addressing some cosmetic issues. He had mentioned the lower end handling problem and I couldn't see it. The boat looks like it would handle great. It's wide and deep, not tall and narrow or anything goofy. It looks like a great cruiser. We ended up on Elsinore with it one day where it became evident that Andy was not exaggerating about this low speed problem. This boat had a serious gangster lean, dangerous serious. Andy's boat is equipped with a set of Dana Marine 12" wide X 24" long billet tabs. they are mounted in a very odd place. When I looked at it, the tabs had no rhyme or reason for their placement.

After our first take-off and huge lean, Andy handed the helm over to me to see if it was driver error. I immediately saw it was not. The boat just has some bottom issues. You can drive thru it, at about 30 MPH the boat straightens right out and sails straight as an arrow. Handles great up until about 70-75 where the back end starts dancing pretty hard. Throw in some cross rollers and you've got a handful at the wheel.

I attempted to use the tabs to correct the low speed lean, but what you end up with is a very sensitive, over active tab and the boat reacts big time to small tab movements. The boat leans to the starboard side on take off, so even with a small amount of down tab on the starboard side it will throw it over to lean to port pretty hard.

Andy wanted the boat to be safe for his wife to drive, and I knew we had some figuring out to do. First to the phones, I talked with Howard, no help other than, yeah, we know, there's not much you can do to help it. I spoke to the guys who installed the trim tabs where they did, because the placement was so odd. They could not recall why they mounted them there other than that was the only place they would fit.

First things first, I took the tabs off. Went to the lake. The boat gets on plane great, still leans, but still straightens out at 30 mph. At that point, I'm thinking we broom the tabs all together, due to how sensitive the boat was with the tabs on it, it would be better to take the potential danger away from someone accidently hitting a tab switch or something. That was a great thought until I rolled the boat up to 70 mph. That loose problem it had before was much worse. A little scary to be honest. When you have that much boat pitching left to right, it's not a good feeling, and not one that I have felt before. And I've driven a lot of boats.

So next up was to swap out the bottom plates and use a shorter set of tabs. I went with the 12" wide X 17" long. Back to the lake. It basically was the same as it was with the 12X24 tabs on it. Still leaning, still straightening out at 30 and still squirrely on the top end.

Not having any real positive feedback for Andy, I felt we had to make some big changes. This boat was originally equipped with Bennett tabs and when they mounted the Dana tabs, they just siliconed over the old Bennett holes. We had already committed to repair the transom, so I spoke with Andy and he agreed to let me move the tabs in a more traditional spot. We proceeded to move the tabs to run parallel to the keel compared to running parallel to the water line. Due to how sensitive the boat has been to the trim tabs in the past, I figured I would start with my loaner 12 X 17 bottom plates. At this time I also threw a left hand rotation prop on the boat. Because of the type of shifter the boat is equipped with, it is easy to simply drive the boat in reverse for the time being to see if it helps.

Went to the lake. Took off, the boat lean was 95 percent gone. Not knowing what fixed the leaning problem, it could have been the reverse pitch prop or the new tab placement. I immediately went back to the trailer, ripped the tabs off on the launch ramp and went back in the water. Took off, no lean. So great, problem 1 is fixed. The boat takes off like a normal boat now. I decided to run it out with the left hand prop on it to see if that would help the upper end problem with no tabs. The boat is still really squirrely on the top end. So no luck there. Back to the ramp, put the tabs back on, back in the water. Boat takes off great, I could notice that the boat was much more sensitive with turning even with the tabs all the way up. I proceeded to run it up and at about 78 I got another dose of very dangerous chine walking.

We simply could not win on the top end. The boat is so stable from take-off to 65 mph, I just could not believe it could get so sideways within 5 MPH. At that point, we were out of options. I put the tabs back where they originally were, installed the longer bottom plates, and went back to the lake. The boat ran as stable as possible without serious bottom work. If the water is smooth you can run it out and slowly decelerate. To fast out of the pedal at those speeds and your going for a ride. With the bottom end leaning problem fixed, and the upper end as stable as we could get it, we proceeded to Islander for our gelcoat repairs. The boat rides and handles great until you pass 70 MPH. Andy knows this and drives the boat where it likes to be driven. There's not many 22 foot boats out there with this kind of interior room and the boat serves a great purpose as a fun cruiser. Just be careful over powering one of these boats.
 
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hallett21

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In regards to the top end chine walking. Is there a chance that the drive may be causing issues. Not knowing enough about boat rigging I'm just thinking if the hull is straight and the prop isn't the issue maybe the drive's hydrodynamics are funny? Has anyone tried the hull with a nose cone, imco, shorter lower or anything other than a B1? The boat looks like it could be super stable at a 100mph. Do the schiada 24s experience the same issues at the 70mph mark? Or could that two feet taken off of the stern really cause a chine walk because the motor is now "closer" to the center of the hull in comparison to the 24 schiada?
 

BLOWN HOWARD

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Hopefully you get a chance someday to see how well she cleaned up. So far I've completely done the interior, stereo, and helm; in addition to the work figuring out the lean issues and in the process beefing up the drive a bit. Next year I'll probably go through the motor. Its still running strong. but I'm sure its time. :D

Your killing me send me some updated pictures if you dont mind. And that motor was built to last and as you can see it is still going strong. Built with good parts!!!!
 

GregG

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Awesome feedback from Recycle Performance on the Generation 1 Howard 220 Offshore's handling. :thumbup:
 

GregG

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I appreciate all the comments and responses. From what I remember (I've only had the boat a couple of months and it's stored at the river), the hull has the notch and the pad as shown in your picture. I know that for sure, as the drain plug is back about foot and on the edge of the pad. I'll get some detailed pics when I'm at the river next weekend.

Ok, get some good pics when you are out there next on the Generation 2 Howard 220 Offshore. If that notch is as deep as you believe it to be, then it is possible that Howard used a higher X dimension when they mounted the drive on your boat. That higher X will hinder your hole shot but help with top end. Also, eyeball if the Delta Pad runs right to the transom notch, or does it end early, say three or four feet forward of the notch?
 

GregG

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That's right, "a Bravo 1 4 blade" just spinning the opposite direction. Definitely not to much prop for this motor, it will run right up past 5500, of course that's when it gets a bit interesting so it isn't often that you pull past that. btw nice catch on "bourbon man". I think you may be the first that has made that link. Don't drink it as much these days, but was my favorite bourbon back when I had restaurants. So smooth its scary.

I'm a big BH fan. One of the few you can buy at 80 proof unless you know of another? The Bravo 1 Four Blade is a good fit for that hull design. You might also try a Rev4 which is also a large diameter prop. You will need to add PVS holes one at a time to see what you like. The Rev4 will "lift" the whole boat, which may be a help with a the Generation 1 straight V of 22 degrees. Maybe try and borrow one although I am not sure if they come opposite spin?
 

GregG

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BasilHayden told it pretty straight on this boat. A great boat, a 22 footer that everyone thinks is a 24 or 25. It's big, roomy, and rides like a Cadillac. I felt we had to make some big changes. This boat was originally equipped with Bennett tabs and when they mounted the Dana tabs, they just siliconed over the old Bennett holes. I spoke with Andy and he agreed to let me move the tabs in a more traditional spot. We proceeded to move the tabs to run parallel to the keel compared to running parallel to the water line. The 220 Offshore rides and handles great until you pass 70 MPH. Andy knows this and drives the boat where it likes to be driven. There's not many 22 foot boats out there with this kind of interior room and the boat serves a great purpose as a fun cruiser. Just be careful over powering one of these boats.

What size trim tabs did you end up staying with?
 

Marine Industries West

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In our trial phase I ran a rev 4 25 P to see if it would help with the leaning problem (still RH rotation). It didn't react any different on the take-off leaning problem and it was more squirrely on the top end. Trust me, my recap write up could have been about 10 pages long with all the stuff I tried, but I thought from a readership standpoint I'd stick to the basics of our experience and let you know what worked. We ended up with Dana HP1000 tabs (12X24). After my conversation with Howard and my month of testing and back and forth to the lake about 20 times, I came to my own conclusion that the boat simply has a defective running surface. The strake lines are just not correct on the bottom. I'm not a bottom expert, but it doesn't take one to realize some things are just not repairable without major fiberglass work. Being that Howard concurred with the problem and basically said that boat shouldn't have much more than stock power in it kind of told me they had a lot of problems and didn't have solutions. They couldn't even make a suggestion of how to fix the leaning problem. Once we tried the left hand rotation set-up, and it corrected the leaning issue, I let Howard know so they could help other people if being questioned. I don't think they built a lot of these boats so it wasn't a major concern for them.

As mentioned by Andy, the boat is very trim sensitive on the top end. Due to a strake issue on the bottom, If you run this boat out at 70 + MPH, and you do not have the trim high enough the boat will bow steer dangerously. The trim has to be up to carry the nose and get the lowest leading strake lines up out of harms way. With the trim correct, the boat is very stable until that 70 MPH threshold. My suggestion, don't cross it without a very experienced driver that can judge the right conditions in which to do it. Like I said, throw some cross chop at it and you've got a scary situation coming. I've driven countless boats, little ones, big ones, cats and v-bottoms. Pushed many -O- boats well over 100 MPH and never been scared. This boat scared me. The boat is so heavy, when it starts chine walking, it is not easily corrected and could get violent real quick if someone isn't smart enough to get off the pedal and know how to drive out of it. Ever seen that Fountain video where everyone gets tossed? That is my fear with that boat at high speeds.

I'm sure if the boat went on a diet in the bow section it might help with that issue. If you lost the open bow interior section, you might shed 400 lbs off the nose and that might help a lot. My customer bought the boat because of how roomy it was, so I didn't think he'd be interested the idea of losing the open bow to possibly fix the problem. We got the boat as good as it's going to get. My customer knows how to drive it and knows it's limitations. That being said, the boat is awesome. It's not a go-fast boat. It's a cruiser, and a very comfortable one at that.
 
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GregG

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Excellent observations RP and you are spot on, they were built as a higher speed cruiser that was a full 8' wide and has that massive bow dead rise angle to knock down the big stuff. I'm not questioning your expertise in the least, more curious, but do you think the Rev4 spinning the opposite way (like his current Bravo 1 Four blade) would possibly produce a better result? The Rev4's tend to carry the bow equally well and also "lift" the entire boat which might neutralize the strakes a bit more. Might be worth a try next year.
 

Marine Industries West

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Anything is possible. In my opinion, the problem is so severe, a propeller is not going to correct it. This particular boat has a lot of weight in the bow, besides the open bow section, it has a lot of stereo equipment up in the drive and passenger leg sections. There could be all sorts of things to try. The boat also has huge fuel capacity. Two saddle tanks roughly 40 gallons each. The position of the tanks along with weight in the bow section could be throwing off the CG in the boat. Pretty much all of these boats are rigged differently, so without exact details it's hard to compare Andy's boat to others built. Maybe there's one of these boats out there that has the fuel tanks in a different position or maybe even a single belly tank as a closed bow version that works good. I don't know, that's why my first instinct was to call Howard. I've worked with Howard Boats very closely in the past as I did all of their rig kits for 10 years. I know those guys pretty well. I was hoping to get the straight scoop on the boat. Unfortunately, there was no ideas or solutions available other than to be careful.

A prop change may help, IMO the boat has shown it's true colors as being very sensitive on the top end. It's hard to trust a situation like that. Water conditions change, weight in the boat changes, and you never know when something is going to strike. I've seen a lot of people get hurt. It doesn't take an accident to have an accident. Plenty of people have been thrown in sides of boats. Call me Papa Bear, I just worry about this stuff, especially when kids are in the boat. Seen that movie more than once, guy has a few beers, thinks he's superman, and throttles up, cross roller hits boat, boats gets thrown in weird, sends passengers into side of boat, broken shoulders, arms, etc. Heard it all.

With enough money to throw at it, you could de-rig the boat, empty it out and start trying stuff. That would be a long road traveled and not be cheap.
 
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BasilHayden

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Hmm, maybe I should just cut it up and throw it away...

Not a chance, does it have a little quirk, yes, but in no way is this boat dangerous if used within its limits. With the motor, I have I can get to its limits, but I don't feel as unsafe as Bob's post reads. I absolutely respected all he work he has don,e and in fact he has tempered my original desire to throw even more power at it. I can honestly say I don't often need to go more than 60 on the water. And the beauty of this boat is that at 60 its the smoothest ride imaginable and has no ill traits. With all his efforts, and he isn't exagerating this boat turned into a mission for him, because he couldn't believe the extent of the original lean. I honestly believe he just about cured that. It still doesnt really like running slow (read that to be under 20), at those speeds it can still resort to the dreaded lean, but other than that its a great boat.

I definitely agree with Bob regarding weight, I have occasionally looked at the crew and suggested seat swaps to better balance the load, other times I just use the tabs. As to the weight of the stereo gear, Bob it used to have 50+ pounds in the drivers and passengers foot-wells. I pulled all that out and went with new gear that dropped the weight by a good 30 lbs. I also moved the big 12" subs from that location and had them dropped into the bottom of the rear bench. There are only 8's up there now. Bah, I actually put the boat on a diet up front compared to what was there before.

Besides when I need that speed run, I will drag the old Hallett out and make a nice little run, that is if it ever gets finished :yikes
Hopefully I'll soon be able to give a report on the rebirth of my 76' Hallett. What can I say, I like old boats. :thumbsup
 

GregG

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They are cruisers and who cares about the big number, 70 is plenty when you get all the other good stuff with it. I bet those two (40) gallon saddle tanks are a big part of the problem now that I know that is what it has. That is 280lbs each when full and even if fully baffled that is a lot of twists for the CoG. I wonder if Howard switched to a belly tank in later models. There are not many boats that can do everything a 220 can do so the compromise is no big deal. :thumbup:
 

GregG

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Howard used a unique mold when they built an open bow 220 Offshore, they did not just cut open a closed deck model like many builders do. I'd throw a reverse rotation Rev4 on it and see what happens. May be a pleasant (and cheap) surprise :thumbsup
 

Chili Palmer

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They are cruisers and who cares about the big number, 70 is plenty when you get all the other good stuff with it. I bet those two (40) gallon saddle tanks are a big part of the problem now that I know that is what it has. That is 280lbs each when full and even if fully baffled that is a lot of twists for the CoG. I wonder if Howard switched to a belly tank in later models. There are not many boats that can do everything a 220 can do so the compromise is no big deal. :thumbup:

40 gallons? I wish. Mine are only 25 gallons each. At a 1/2 tank it's 12-13 gallons to top off.
 

RiverDave

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In regards to the top end chine walking. Is there a chance that the drive may be causing issues. Not knowing enough about boat rigging I'm just thinking if the hull is straight and the prop isn't the issue maybe the drive's hydrodynamics are funny? Has anyone tried the hull with a nose cone, imco, shorter lower or anything other than a B1? The boat looks like it could be super stable at a 100mph. Do the schiada 24s experience the same issues at the 70mph mark? Or could that two feet taken off of the stern really cause a chine walk because the motor is now "closer" to the center of the hull in comparison to the 24 schiada?

24 Schiada with a Merc 600 runs just over 90mph.. So I'm going to hazard a guess that they don't have the same problem.
 

Ballyhoo

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My 24 Schiada is the full V all the way to the transom, 540 HP, B1, with a 24P Bravo prop. It does have the small Bennett tabs. I really don't use the tabs at all. It will get on plane real quick with 60 gallons of fuel, 5 adults and loaded with wakeboards and a big ice chest. I never need to hammer the throttle to get on plane. It drags for a moment and then rolls right over.
 

GregG

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The Howard 220 Offshore was not derived from the Schiada 24, it's origins are the Vaughn 22 so I doubt they have similar bottoms. Does your Schiada 24 have a belly tank and how many gallons?
 

RiverDave

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The Howard 220 Offshore was not derived from the Schiada 24, it's origins are the Vaughn 22 so I doubt they have similar bottoms. Does your Schiada 24 have a belly tank and how many gallons?

Greg, the Vaughn 22 is a direct copy of the 24 Schiada shortened, which was used as the mold to make the Howard 22. You can look at them side by side and they are exactly the same until you get to the transom area.

FYI, the 24 Schiada has a variable dead rise in the back where it is constantly changing the further it gets back. The Howard 25 Bullet and I believe the 28 (don't quote me on the 28) Bullet are loosely based on the 24 Schiada as well, but with a step, stretched etc.. They ended up turning a great working hull into a legendary hull that can pull 120's and even 130's with a single engine..

RD
 

WildHorses24

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Greg, the Vaughn 22 is a direct copy of the 24 Schiada shortened, which was used as the mold to make the Howard 22. You can look at them side by side and they are exactly the same until you get to the transom area.



RD

From member Vaughn888....now I'm confused? Maybe not a direct copy but....


22 Vaughn
There are so many stories that have gone around that I would love to straighten them out. I am Vaughn. I am a retired fireman and I was a boatbuilder. I built my own boats. They were not splashed from the 24' Schiada. Leonard Schiada sold the molds of the 24' Schiada to someone in Canada by the way. The boat had a completely different deck from a Schiada. I designed my own deck and it should be obvious that it did not look at all like the deck of the Schiada. Measurements were taken from a boat that was a 22' that had been one of the few Schiadas that had been built from the 24' mold which ultimately went to Canada. I started working on the molds in 1974. I produced the first one in 1979. Some of the changes I made were different lifting strakes as well as many others. Some boats had delta pads. Some did not. My boats would not have fit into their molds. I stopped production around 1990.
 
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GregG

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Dave I know you have said this before, but according to the owner of Vaughn boats, who posted the detailed description below, you are wrong..........

There are so many stories that have gone around that I would love to straighten them out. I am Vaughn. I am a retired fireman and I was a boat builder. I built my own boats. They were not splashed from the 24' Schiada. Leonard Schiada sold the molds of the 24' Schiada to someone in Canada by the way. Measurements were taken from a boat that was a 22' that had been one of the few Schiadas that had been built from the 24' mold which ultimately went to Canada. I started working on my molds in 1974. I produced the first one in 1979. Some of the changes I made were different lifting strakes as well as many others. Some boats had delta pads. Some did not. My boats would not have fit into their molds. I stopped production around 1990. Building boats I found out draws out a lot of people who think they know something when often they know nothing at all. I might add that the 22' Schiada which was produced around 1974 was a much more shallow V.
 

GregG

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And then according to one of the riggers who actually worked at Howard in the early 90's is this bit of revealing information on the Howard 220 Offshore which was also referred to as the 22 Offshore at some point.............

old rigger said:
When we got the Hocking mold at Howard, I was the rigger there then, we got one set of molds, the 22'. Rudy Raymos brokered the deal between Gene and who ever Hocking was. I've long forgotten his name. The only mold Howard had that had anything to do with Schiada was the little semi V 19 which was a Schiada first. As a side note of absolutely no importance, my dad?s step brother was one of Len Schiadas first employees. Floyd Chambers was his name and he, like most of the guys that worked for Schiada back in the early days, was a fireman. He died in '84 or 85, a Capt in the La Mirada fire dept. Sorry your wrong about the Howard. I was there when we took delivery of the molds from Hocking. It was a 23, (actual length was 22) it was also later stretched into a longer version at Howard.
 

MarkC

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I have the 2nd Gen Howard 1st out of the mold in 1994 non delta, that came after, The 22 offshore from what I heard was a splash off a Hocking, same bottom same deck.

I've used this boat for Marathon skiing and the Bottom does have issues, a hook on the left strake, I took my boat to Pats and he put a straight edge to it and yes this bottom need to be redone especially if you put power to it, it is a handful at around 75, I had John at Concept put some Dana plates (mounted level to the outside running surface) and hydrolic (sp) steering so when trimmed at those speeds it would calm it down a bit, same scenrio rocking motion, the second boat out of this same mold was Mike Willen's, he put a blower motor with power and used the same Dana 1000 tabs, I never got any input from him in regards to the handing at those speeds, but a friend of mine bought that boat and we raced it, I drove it in a Havasu marathon beyond 80 as it rode on the back plates it seemed more stable, its that gap between 70-78 you have to drive it, like my Tr2...

Chili, as someone mentioned here you need to check prop size and gearing, my boat gets up on a plane pretty quick with the 4 blade 24.

Mark
 

GregG

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I am certainly not an engineer, but I suspect the problem with the Generation 1 version of the Howard 220 Offshore hulls are two fold. First, with that type of hull you should always use a belly tank to manage the center of gravity. Second, when you look at how steep the bow dead rise angle is on the 220 Offshore XL hull below and how they carried the strakes forward, it becomes clear that it was designed for rough water first (which it evidently does exceptionally well) and speed second. In order to work well with todays higher horsepower mills (in 1992 a 454 Magnum made 365HP?) you need to carry the bow high but also the stern. You need the entire boat lifted as much as possible for the high speed stuff provided the bottom is actually straight. When cruising, the 22 degree straight V works great and the bow shear eats big water and keeps the deck and the peeps dry.
 

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RiverDave

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From member Vaughn888....now I'm confused? Maybe not a direct copy but....


22 Vaughn
There are so many stories that have gone around that I would love to straighten them out. I am Vaughn. I am a retired fireman and I was a boatbuilder. I built my own boats. They were not splashed from the 24' Schiada. Leonard Schiada sold the molds of the 24' Schiada to someone in Canada by the way. The boat had a completely different deck from a Schiada. I designed my own deck and it should be obvious that it did not look at all like the deck of the Schiada. Measurements were taken from a boat that was a 22' that had been one of the few Schiadas that had been built from the 24' mold which ultimately went to Canada. I started working on the molds in 1974. I produced the first one in 1979. Some of the changes I made were different lifting strakes as well as many others. Some boats had delta pads. Some did not. My boats would not have fit into their molds. I stopped production around 1990.



I have personally seen the 24 Schiada, and the 22 Howard literally directly across from each other at the LA Boat show.. I didn't have a measuring tape on me, but they sure damn looked the same to me.. Enough that I walked back and forth about 5 times, and they looked real similar up until the transom.

Gene has also said to me on multiple occasions that the bottom of the 22 is in fact a shortened 24 Schiada... So there's always that. The deck of the Vaughn looks very different then a 24 Schiada. I looks like a smooth deck 24 Schiada with a 21 Schiada gunnel put on it.

The question is very EASILY SOLVED THOUGH.. Paul OD1 has a 24 Schiada, and we have several members on here with 22 Howards.. Why don't we put them side x side and do some basic measuring and see what's what? I've got a 21 Schiada to compare the gunnel to see if it's the same as well.

RD
 

MarkC

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I agree! I love my boat, it plows through the ruff stuff real well and roomy for its size, it throws a nice wake to jump, ask Mead Snake!

Mark
 
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