How long should a shop stand behind their work?

[steamin rice]

I’m going to keep this as short as possible, but I’m looking for opinions regarding an issue I am having with some service that was done to my boat.

I have Eddie Marine Billet trim tabs on my boat which have been great. For anyone who is not familiar with these trim tabs, there is a collar assembly with seals that goes up into the billet ram housing, all held in place by a snap ring that fits into a recessed groove in the housing. These pics show the assembly and you can see the snap ring if you look closely.

In Dec 2018 I had a local shop rebuild both trim rams since one of them was leaking (understandable since I had 204 hours on the boat and it was 13 years old) and also had a full service done to the boat while it was in the shop.

In Sept 2019, my starboard trim ram came apart with 15 hours of use after the rebuild in Dec 2018. There was no damage to the billet housing or the snap ring. The snap ring had somehow become dislodged which allowed the seal assembly to slide out of the housing which made me wonder if the snap ring wasn’t fully seated in the housing after the rebuild.

The shop who did the rebuild told me that the trim ram came apart due to bad parts from Eddie Marine but that they would rebuild it again. I also had a full service done again even though the boat only had 15 hours since the previous service, but I wanted to show my support for the shop since I assumed they were standing behind their work on my trim tab failure. I was not charged any labor to rebuild the trim tab again, but I was charged $82.53 for a new trim tab rebuild kit with shipping and my boat was at the shop for almost a month waiting on parts.

In June 2021, my port side trim ram came apart with 30 hours of use after the rebuild in Dec 2018. Again there was no damage to the billet housing and the snap ring was still intact but had somehow became dislodged which allowed the seal assembly to slide out.

I called Eddie Marine to ask them about my situation. They have changed the design of their trim rams to a style where the seal assembly is held in by a collar that is bolted into the ram rather than using a snap ring, but Eddie Marine told me that this design change was made because it is easier/less expensive to manufacture than the snap ring style which makes sense to me. They told me that they sold my style of trim tabs for 25 years and have never had an issue with the snap rings coming out of the housings unless the billet was damaged or the snap ring wasn’t installed correctly.

The shop who did the rebuilds tells me that the failures are due to bad parts from Eddie Marine and wants to charge me for parts and labor to rebuild the port side trim ram. The shop service manager tells me that there is no warranty on this work since it was done in Dec 2018, even though I have only put 30 hours on the boat since the work was done.

Am I wrong for expecting the shop that did the work to stand behind this? This is a shop that I have been using exclusively since 2010, so I am feeling disappointed in the service I am receiving and am getting a clear signal that my business is not valued by this shop. I am looking for honest feedback, so if I am being unreasonable in my expectations I’d like to get that feedback.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

Cars / trucks = 1 year parts / labor . Boat = all bets are off . They treated you right by absorbing some cost . Jmo

 

[ltbaney1]

my .02 they did you right. i would inspect both snap ring grooves just for my piece of mind.

 

[DLow]

2 1/2 years later?
They already rebuilt one for parts only?
Move on.
Replace the rams with the new style.
Why am I not surprised the manufacturer won’t tell you it was a design change due to flaw.

 

[riverroyal]

Eddie says never a problem. 2 sides pop out?
something sounds like the snap ring was not ‘snapped’ in correctly. If that’s possible

 

[rivergames]

IMO, 30 hours on the ram is quite a long time and not the shops fault for the failure.

This sounds like a shitty failure that you'll have to eat

 

[Ziggy]

My honest opinion.
It has definitely passed any warranty period of theirs regardless of how few hours the boat has been used.....however, considering you had the same issues with both you'd think they'd step up to a similar deal as the first failure. Especially adding the fact you've been a loyal customer.
.
I can tell you for certain it is easy for a shop to loose sight of long term verses today. A friendly reminder of your loyalty(or the loss of it) might persuade them a bit.

 

[COCA COLA COWBOY]

I'd buy the new style rams and move on.

 

[snowboat]

If the o rings and the snap ring groove are good, slide it back together with a new snap ring.

 

[DLC]

You should of had the other side inspected after they fixed it. I think they did faulty rebuild / snap ring install. Faulty parts is basically saying Not My Problem!

if your a long time customer of the shop I can see a discount ( good faith ) make thing right so to speak… the original snap ring went for 200 hrs…. 30 hrs is a joke!

nothing wrong with the snap ring groove was it cleaned out, have any wear marks?

$85 bucks for parts and what $200 /300 labor / side

maybe you need to find a different shop

 

[Singleton]

Same issue on both sides after x hours. IMO, this is not a parts problem, but issue with the rebuild (labor). Shop should of verified both sides were installed correctly after the first failure, 2 years later, shop does not want to eat $150 an hour in labor when most are overbooked already. I would have the following conversation = I will pay for the parts, but want to split the cost of labor. We both know something is off for both to fail The same way after the rebuilds.
if they are not willing to meet halfway, might be time to try another shop.

 

[RCDave]

Seems like the number of hours operating the rams would be minimal over the time you ran the boat. Sounds like shoddy work to me

 

[steamin rice]

my .02 they did you right. i would inspect both snap ring grooves just for my piece of mind.

Both snap ring grooves are in perfect condition. The original powder coating is fully intact.

2 1/2 years later?
They already rebuilt one for parts only?
Move on.
Replace the rams with the new style.
Why am I not surprised the manufacturer won’t tell you it was a design change due to flaw.

I would think that if this was a problem with the design, there would have been multiple failures that wold have been posted online. I've spent some time trying to find other issues in an attempt to understand what is going on with mine, but I haven't found any. I believe that Eddie Marine was being genuine when I spoke to them.

Eddie says never a problem. 2 sides pop out?
something sounds like the snap ring was not ‘snapped’ in correctly. If that’s possible

That is my concern. I have no way to verify if my issue is labor related or parts related.

IMO, 30 hours on the ram is quite a long time and not the shops fault for the failure.

This sounds like a shitty failure that you'll have to eat

I have already concluded that I will eat the repair again, but I'm trying to decide if it's time to switch shops going forward. This is relatively inexpensive, so my bigger concern is what would happen if there was a similar issue on something more expensive.

Is 30 hours really a long time for a trim tab ram to last? My original rams were fine for 200 hours and 13 years and I know of a 20 year old boat with 800 hours on the original trim tab rams. Is it really normal to expect to rebuild trim tab rams every 30 hours?

My honest opinion.
It has definitely passed any warranty period of theirs regardless of how few hours the boat has been used.....however, considering you had the same issues with both you'd think they'd step up to a similar deal as the first failure. Especially adding the fact you've been a loyal customer.
.
I can tell you for certain it is easy for a shop to loose sight of long term verses today. A friendly reminder of your loyalty(or the loss of it) might persuade them a bit.

Thanks - To be honest I was disappointed in how they handled the first failure, since there is no evidence of any parts actually failing and the cause could have been an incorrectly installed snap ring. I have reminded the shop of my loyalty and also of the fact that I have referred some large jobs to them, however they are very busy right now and I am a small fish compared to their other clients.

 

[hawgty55]

Exclusive since 2010 id say if like to see some more effort on there part.

 

[bilz]

Move on, you'll never be comfortable with any of their work.

 

[D19]

Is the ram binding? I would think it takes a lot of pressure to blow out that snap ring.

 

[boatdoc55]

How come no one has asked if the snap-ring was installed the proper way. There are normally two sides to a snap-ring. One side is flat sharp edged and the other is more rounded. But hell, what do I know!!!

 

[185EZ]

Eddie says never a problem. 2 sides pop out?
something sounds like the snap ring was not ‘snapped’ in correctly. If that’s possible

I always thought snap rings were directional. They have a flat side and a rounded side.
Seems every manual is different on how they say to install.
I have always installed snap rings with flat side towards the "pressure" or holding side if that makes sense.
By the looks of this snap ring it was installed with the rounded side towards the pressure or holding side and I think there's more of a chance it slipping out vs the other way. I've never had a snap ring come out doing it my way

 

[CLdrinker]

Sucks, But you can really expect them to warranty something they don’t have in writing.
Boat maintenance = good times

 

[rivergames]

Is 30 hours really a long time for a trim tab ram to last? My original rams were fine for 200 hours and 13 years and I know of a 20 year old boat with 800 hours on the original trim tab rams. Is it really normal to expect to rebuild trim tab rams every 30 hours?

By all means, the ram should hold together a LOT longer than 30 hours.

It just comes down to parts failing at 30 hours is tough to put blame on a shop. If the part was installed correctly, then it would fall onto a failure of parts.

It's just one of those crappy deals that you just gotta pony up and get past it.

Since the shop already fixes the one side at no cost, I wouldn't fully hold it onto them. They could have put a new snap ring in the other side, but coulda woulda shoulda

 

[hallett21]

Wouldn’t the ring fail immediately if installed improperly?

30 hours is long enough to cycle each Ram 10-20 times up and down. You would think it would fail in the shop if installed improperly.

Could you hit a wave hard enough to dislodge the ring?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JUSTWANNARACE]

How come no one has asked if the snap-ring was installed the proper way. There are normally two sides to a snap-ring. One side is flat sharp edged and the other is more rounded. But hell, what do I know!!!

I was just going to post the same thing! But I'm just a dumb orygoniyan

 

[Done-it-again]

I agree with the posts above......There are many many shops in havi (assuming that is were the work was done) do go to a new one and have it rebuilt again or go for the updated one from Eddie.

 

[Desert Whaler]

This might be a dumb question . . . but do snap rings wear out ? Can or do they lose their tension?
Would new ones be in order during a re-build? They can't be that much $$$.

 

[JDKRXW]

In Dec 2018 I had a local shop rebuild both trim rams since one of them was leaking (understandable since I had 204 hours on the boat and it was 13 years old)

I called Eddie Marine to ask them about my situation. They have changed the design of their trim rams to a style where the seal assembly is held in by a collar that is bolted into the ram rather than using a snap ring, but Eddie Marine told me that this design change was made because it is easier/less expensive to manufacture than the snap ring style which makes sense to me.

Did the rebuild kit in 2018 come with new snap rings?
Looking back, I would have re-used the originals. Hind sight is 20/20.

One would assume that the quality of the new ones that were in the kit s were equivalent to the originals - but the way things are now -- who knows. I'm sure Eddie Marine would specify this.
Theoretically, a snap ring's thrust load holding ability is easily calculated if you know the properties of the housing it's installed into and of the snap ring itself.
If the new snap ring isn't as strong as the old one -- you run the risk of it popping out. And once they have poped out, I wouldn't trust an aluminum housing.
Also: unless there's a limit switch, whenever you hit relief pres on the pump, when cyls extend to max - the piston will pound on the gland (which is held by this snap ring) -- so if it doesn't have the same properties as the original snap ring - this could be an issue.

Not trying to start anything here (I've been with a gearbox manufacturer for 30+ yrs and I have seen this exact scenario many times with our housings and snap rings).
I highly doubt having a bolted in collar is less expensive than the original snap ring set up - but it's probably a better solution.

 

[JBS]

2 1/2 years later?
They already rebuilt one for parts only?
Move on.
Replace the rams with the new style.
Why am I not surprised the manufacturer won’t tell you it was a design change due to flaw.

The answer in bold.

There is no way the current end cap that is machined and has 4 bolts to retain it is cheaper than a snap ring and groove.

I have a lot of high pressure industrial equipment and none of the cylinders use a snap ring for retention. The shop should of just not worked on these in the first place.

 

[johnnyC]

in my onion the machined groove in the main body needs to be inspected for being square and i would install the snapp ring with the the flat side out away from the gland just to be sure the snap ring is supported fully by the groove... it should hold , have you checked your hydraulic pressure it could be too high and its overpowering the snap ring when the snap ring is installed with the rounded side to the outside

 

[Motor Boater]

There is no way Eddie would have RE engineered and re designed, re manufactured something they had no failures with. The costs for design, engineering, RE tooling, making a billet ring to replace a 8cent snap ring is something you would spend money on if there wasn’t a problem.

 

[D19]

The answer in bold.

There is no way the current end cap that is machined and has 4 bolts to retain it is cheaper than a snap ring and groove.


View attachment 1033561

Exactly. There's no way they're going to tell you their previous model sucked. Cutting a groove is was more cost/ time effective than cutting and tapping 4 holes in part and machining an additional cap. I'm thinking pressure builds then pushes the snap ring out.

He could get in there with calipers and see if the groove was cut square. That could be another issue. Once it spits a ring out, it probably rounds out the end of the groove and it will keep happening.

 

[RiverDave]

Exactly. There's no way they're going to tell you their previous model sucked. Cutting a groove is was more cost/ time effective than cutting and tapping 4 holes in part and machining an additional cap. I'm thinking pressure builds then pushes the snap ring out.

He could get in there with calipers and see if the groove was cut square. That could be another issue.

Curious as to how you would do this with calipers..

 

[riverroyal]

How come no one has asked if the snap-ring was installed the proper way. There are normally two sides to a snap-ring. One side is flat sharp edged and the other is more rounded. But hell, what do I know!!!

i did

 

[D19]

Curious as to how you would do this with calipers..

Kind of hard without the part in my hand but I'm thinkin that you put the snap ring back, pres the ring from the front if possible so it's as flat as possible to rear of grove and check the depth all around. How would you do it?

 

[OLDRAAT]

Be nice to know the manufacturer's size and width requirements and tolerances of the grooves for comparison.
Like mentioned above, the groove, snap ring or reassembly practices since you had both rebuilt are suspect. If the snap was reused, it could have been bent during removal and not checked for flatness, etc. before going back together.

If it gets salt water usage, look the grooves over for pitting or corrosion that could weaken it's function.
Also check for galling and wear marks in the cylinder bores which would indicate binding.

Hope you find the problem.

 

[Brian]

I’m going to keep this as short as possible, but I’m looking for opinions regarding an issue I am having with some service that was done to my boat.

I have Eddie Marine Billet trim tabs on my boat which have been great. For anyone who is not familiar with these trim tabs, there is a collar assembly with seals that goes up into the billet ram housing, all held in place by a snap ring that fits into a recessed groove in the housing. These pics show the assembly and you can see the snap ring if you look closely.

View attachment 1033518

View attachment 1033519



In Dec 2018 I had a local shop rebuild both trim rams since one of them was leaking (understandable since I had 204 hours on the boat and it was 13 years old) and also had a full service done to the boat while it was in the shop.

In Sept 2019, my starboard trim ram came apart with 15 hours of use after the rebuild in Dec 2018. There was no damage to the billet housing or the snap ring. The snap ring had somehow become dislodged which allowed the seal assembly to slide out of the housing which made me wonder if the snap ring wasn’t fully seated in the housing after the rebuild.



View attachment 1033520




View attachment 1033521

The shop who did the rebuild told me that the trim ram came apart due to bad parts from Eddie Marine but that they would rebuild it again. I also had a full service done again even though the boat only had 15 hours since the previous service, but I wanted to show my support for the shop since I assumed they were standing behind their work on my trim tab failure. I was not charged any labor to rebuild the trim tab again, but I was charged $82.53 for a new trim tab rebuild kit with shipping and my boat was at the shop for almost a month waiting on parts.

In June 2021, my port side trim ram came apart with 30 hours of use after the rebuild in Dec 2018. Again there was no damage to the billet housing and the snap ring was still intact but had somehow became dislodged which allowed the seal assembly to slide out.


View attachment 1033522

View attachment 1033523


I called Eddie Marine to ask them about my situation. They have changed the design of their trim rams to a style where the seal assembly is held in by a collar that is bolted into the ram rather than using a snap ring, but Eddie Marine told me that this design change was made because it is easier/less expensive to manufacture than the snap ring style which makes sense to me. They told me that they sold my style of trim tabs for 25 years and have never had an issue with the snap rings coming out of the housings unless the billet was damaged or the snap ring wasn’t installed correctly.

The shop who did the rebuilds tells me that the failures are due to bad parts from Eddie Marine and wants to charge me for parts and labor to rebuild the port side trim ram. The shop service manager tells me that there is no warranty on this work since it was done in Dec 2018, even though I have only put 30 hours on the boat since the work was done.

Am I wrong for expecting the shop that did the work to stand behind this? This is a shop that I have been using exclusively since 2010, so I am feeling disappointed in the service I am receiving and am getting a clear signal that my business is not valued by this shop. I am looking for honest feedback, so if I am being unreasonable in my expectations I’d like to get that feedback.

If the shop did the install wrong, you wouldn't of got 15-30hrs out of them if the ring didn't get re installed correctly. Just my $.02

 

[Cdog]

Had the same thing happen on my shockwave Greg. Cleaned everything and put a new C-clip in there. It's a design problem prone to failure.

I'd hit up Eddie Marine and try to get them to step up and replace a bad design. good luck with that though.

 

[rivermobster]

Snap rings have their place...

Consider an automatic transmission, and the pressures inside those things!

But I'm going with a bad design here...

Nobody wants to work for free. Boats ain't cheap.

Buy the updated rams and move on. This shop didn't do anything wrong.

 

[lbhsbz]

Eddie says never a problem. 2 sides pop out?
something sounds like the snap ring was not ‘snapped’ in correctly. If that’s possible

Bullshit…the thing is already on a lathe…takes 1 tool change and 10 more seconds to cut the snap ring groove.

Way easier than just about any alternative.

Measure the ring, go on McMaster and get some internal spiral rings…they won’t come out.

 

[timstoy]

Is the ram binding? I would think it takes a lot of pressure to blow out that snap ring.

 

[timstoy]

The snap ring in the first picture is installed wrong. The flat side of the snap ring should face to the outside.

 

[outboard_256]

I am going to guess if the snap ring wasn't in correctly it would have failed a lot sooner than 30 hours. My best guess is maybe something else is wrong and the snap ring is just the weak link failing each time.

 

[timstoy]

Bullshit…the thing is already on a lathe…takes 1 tool change and 10 more seconds to cut the snap ring groove.

Way easier than just about any alternative.

Measure the ring, go on McMaster and get some internal spiral rings…they won’t come out.

This is the best option. Call Eddie marine for the inside measurement and install the correct internal spiral lock.

 

[96motorhead]

I have seen assemblies with snap rings in place in a hydraulic press and when the part up against the snap ring moves, it is violent. Theres typically parts flying and sparks.

I only see 2 possibilities here the ram was designed wrong or the snap ring did not fit properly. The ram could have been designed wrong if the groove is not deep enough. The snap ring could be slightly undersize, which could be cause by using the wrong part or the ring was stretched out from being over compressed during install/disassembly.

Since you state you put over 200 hours on them and never had a problem I do no think this is a design issue. What I'm thinking could have happened is that the snap rings did not fit properly in the grove after the rebuild but they fit just well enough to hold a reasonable amount of pressure. Under a certain driving condition the pressure in the ram must have been high enough to push the ill fitting snap ring out of the grove. After being pushed out once the housing (I'm assuming it is aluminum) was now damaged, the edge around the snap ring groove is probably rounded and acting like a ramp to push the snap rings out now.

If I were you I would install just the snap ring in its grove and see how it felt. I would also inspect the snap ring groove very carefully.

 

[RCDave]

Would the pressure in a trim tab really be that significant? I would assume its pretty modest. Unless the tab travel was maxed out at the bottom of the range and poof

 

[lbhsbz]

No idea how expensive the new rams are, but another alternative is to find someone with a lathe (RD) to turn and cut some OD threads, then install a gland nut with a spacer to make sure the snap ring can’t get out.

 

[guest hs]

Just an FYI. If you bought a new boat with say a Mercruiser engine package. You usually get a two year warranty regardless of the hours. So if you had say a trim ram cylinder fail in the warranty period and it failed again say three years later from when the boat was purchased it would not still be covered wether it had 20 hours or 200 hours. Keep in mind that’s a multi million dollar company saying no. In my shop I can’t say how I would handle it being so long I guess I would have to look at the circumstances before I made a decision on it. I can say this much the first repair I wouldn’t have charged parts or labor. Most shops only offer a 90 day warranty. Good luck with your repair and if you have had good luck with this shop except this minor problem I would probably stick with them. It’s really hard to find quality work in some of these boat shops these days.

 

[steamin rice]

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback. It seems to be mixed which is understandable. At this point, I've concluded that it's time for me to move on to another shop and try to build a new relationship. Unfortunately for me that means a 3.5 hour tow to Havasu whenever I need service because I have limited options for performance boat shops where I am.

After giving it more thought, I will never be confident that this shop will stand behind their work in the event of an issue in the future. In my mind, this was a pretty low cost way for the shop to show me that they would step up in good faith if there was any question and they chose not to. I'm not a boat mechanic, but I don't see any way that this assembly would have come apart unless either the wrong snap ring was used or the snap ring was not installed correctly, the groove not cleaned out properly, or something else labor related. I tried a last ditch effort to find a solution on Monday when I called the shop and spoke to the service manager. He told me that he was not able to make a firm statement on if they stand behind this or not, but assured me that he would review this with the owner and one of them would call me back. I haven't heard a peep which again tells me where I stand.

This issue also caused me to take a closer look at my invoices from past services. Previously I would just pay my bill and not look at it very closely. Somehow, my boat went from taking 16 quarts of oil and 8 hours of labor for a service to 18 quarts of oil and 10 hours of labor for the same service. There may very well be a valid explanation for this, but it just raises more questions in my mind at this point.

 

[River918]

One of mine popped out a couple years ago and the reputable shop I took it to in Havasu said it was common for these older rams to do this (they have seen it happen numerous times). They put a new clip in the one that popped out and it got me through the rest of the season. Before the following season I had both rams replaced with the new, better version from Eddie so it wouldn't happen again. If it's a design flaw, which in this case I believe it is, Eddie should stand behind them and your boat shop should help facilitate that. Ultimately, I believe it's up to Eddie to take care of their products as long as they are not being abused or assembled incorrectly by a second party. In my case the initial fix and the replacement rams were on my dollar and Eddie didn't help out at all.

 

[TimeBandit]

I would install the snap ring with the rounded side towards the seal and the flat side down I think it would hold up better to pressure installed like this.

12 months warranty is all I would expect from any shop. You are well past that.

My experience with SNAP rings is they are usually pretty foolproof but pay attention to the correct orientation.

 

[Taboma]

 

[OLDRAAT]

Quickest way to get you back in action do is what Joe @rivermobster said. Get the updated units and be done. You got good life out of those original rams.