Hey Tariff Morons.............

[regor]

Makes no sense.
If China doesn't get hurt, why would they be so against the Tariff?

He’s trying to protect his sweat shops, plain and simple.

Sweat shops for thee, money for me AND I’m a Constitutionalist hahahaha.

Turdy only cares about money aka whore.

 

[Andy B.]

So basically it cuts in to his bottom line because he has to pay more to get it in the US which i'm sure he passes on to his customers so it really doesn't affect him, does that sum it up?

 

[wallnutz]

So basically it cuts in to his bottom line because he has to pay more to get it in the US which i'm sure he passes on to his customers so it really doesn't affect him, does that sum it up?

That’s what it sounds like to me. Might be a little more clear if he answered my last question.

 

[Andy B.]

Well when i asked him about his dealings overseas he pretty much denied it so i'm just assuming lol

 

[was thatguy]

It’s just a longer lap to get back to “Orange man bad and it’s all our fault because we are stupid Trumpkins”....

His decree would be nearly identical if Hillary had won, it would still be all our fault, regardless that he removed himself from the process.

 

[530RL]

Well when i asked him about his dealings overseas he pretty much denied it so i'm just assuming lol

I said Regor was full of shit with respect to “sweat shops” as we do not own any “sweat shops”. We do however manufacture in China, use contract manufacturers in China, as well as multiple other countries.

And your analysis is correct, since we can move our manufacturing around, we get higher margins as when the market raises prices to the new price including the tariffs, because we are not subject to them, we get more profit and the US consumer gets less goods for every dollar.

It’s a silly economic policy. But it is the reality when governments interfere in capitalism.

I am against government interference in markets as it is a form of socialism, but I understand others, like Regor, support government over capitalism and believe those that believe in capitalism are “whores”.

 

[Andy B.]

So you pay your oversea's labor $15.00/hr? So it is all about you in the end,Trumps just trying to get to an equal playing field thanks for the admission I totally understand you now. IMO you're kind of hypocritical and interference a kind of socialism nice stretch Juan Williams!

 

[regor]

I said Regor was full of shit with respect to “sweat shops” as we do not own any “sweat shops”. We do however manufacture in China, use contract manufacturers in China, as well as multiple other countries.

And your analysis is correct, since we can move our manufacturing around, we get higher margins as when the market raises prices to the new price including the tariffs, because we are not subject to them, we get more profit and the US consumer gets less goods for every dollar.

It’s a silly economic policy. But it is the reality when governments interfere in capitalism.

I am against government interference in markets as it is a form of socialism, but I understand others, like Regor, support government over capitalism and believe those that believe in capitalism are “whores”.

I support AMERICA whore and thanks for confirming your lie.

 

[530RL]

So you pay your oversea's labor $15.00/hr? So it is all about you in the end,Trumps just trying to get to an equal playing field thanks for the admission I totally understand you now. IMO you're kind of hypocritical and interference a kind of socialism nice stretch Juan Williams!

Level the playing field? You mean like “an economy that works for everyone”? Sounds like someone in the debates.......I think there is a thread on this in the P&G?

Holy Shit, you’re now advocating for the government “leveling the playing field”? How about government mandated higher minimum wages? How about mandatory health care? How about leveling the health care field so everyone has an equal access to health care? Maybe 1000 a month to all citizens?

Hell no we don’t pay them 15 an hour, we pay them whatever the market wage is.

I never thought that you guys would all become socialists? But the transformation is rapidly becoming complete.

 

[RCDave]

Tariffs hurt the citizens, not the governments that impose them. They give the governments more capital to become bigger governments to impose their wills against the people.

Free markets provide the best outcome for all.

 

[fmo24]

Tariffs hurt the citizens, not the governments that impose them. They give the governments more capital to become bigger governments to impose their wills against the people.

Free markets provide the best outcome for all.

This is absolutely true But it is not really a free market outside of the US as I understand it. Every country is subsidizing their own markets to benefit them

 

[RCDave]

This is absolutely true But it is not really a free market outside of the US as I understand it. Every country is subsidizing their own markets to benefit them

I don't disagree. But the US has more influence and meddling in markets than most countries. The power of the US dollar peg let's us manipulate world markets like no other country. And allows our government to get away with much irresponsible actions

 

[was thatguy]

I don't disagree. But the US has more influence and meddling in markets than most countries. The power of the US dollar peg let's us manipulate world markets like no other country. And allows our government to get away with much irresponsible actions

You guys are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to global trade. So I ask this sincerely.

Who is the answer as far as a candidate?
Would things be better or worse with a Clinton admin?

 

[Andy B.]

Level the playing field? You mean like “an economy that works for everyone”? Sounds like someone in the debates.......I think there is a thread on this in the P&G?

Holy Shit, you’re now advocating for the government “leveling the playing field”? How about government mandated higher minimum wages? How about mandatory health care? How about leveling the health care field so everyone has an equal access to health care? Maybe 1000 a month to all citizens?

Hell no we don’t pay them 15 an hour, we pay them whatever the market wage is.

I never thought that you guys would all become socialists? But the transformation is rapidly becoming complete.

More power to you was just making a point trump lowers the cooperate tax rate so hypocrites like you could come back to us and support our economy you just can't face facts the truths hurts buddy pretty easy I see to get the pretzel master wound up!! The 15/hr was a joke the minimum wage is fine you want more work harder that's what is true conservatives believe! Nice try Trump wants America bach and you can't stand that it costs you a few bucks I'm in it for the long haul not a quick buck!

 

[was thatguy]

More power to you was just making a point trump lowers the cooperate tax rate so hypocrites like you could come back to us and support our economy you just can't face facts the truths hurts buddy pretty easy I see to get the pretzel master wound up!! The 15/hr was a joke the minimum wage is fine you want more work harder that's what is true conservatives believe! Nice try Trump wants America bach and you can't stand that it costs you a few bucks I'm in it for the long haul not a quick buck!

Helicopter and jet fuel ain’t cheap!
Have you seen the registration fees for a fiat lately??

 

[Andy B.]

I will say 530 you can't find hard working Americans for $1/hr so my advice stay put in the 3rd world countries that's just good business sense!

 

[530RL]

I will say 530 you can't find hard working Americans for $1/hr so my advice stay put in the 3rd world countries that's just good business sense!

Only under trump could you guys come to the conclusion that capitalism, lowering costs, competition and free markets are bad for America and American consumers.

You guys should petition trump to drop Pence and add Sanders to his ticket as VP in 2020.

 

[Andy B.]

Only under trump could you guys come to the conclusion that capitalism, lowering costs, competition and free markets are bad for America and American consumers.

You guys should petition trump to drop Pence and add Sanders to his ticket as VP in 2020.

I love the fact that I got your panties in a bunch your just as fun as gmac!!!

 

[Andy B.]

The truth hurts long live American capitalism!!!! Some of us can live ,work,employ and make a living here in america without excuses stay overseas we don't want your dirty money!!!

 

[530RL]

I love the fact that I got your panties in a bunch your just as fun as gmac!!!

You don’t bother me at all.

You are actually one of the few who can disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[was thatguy]

You don’t bother me at all.

You are actually one of the few who can disagree without being disagreeable.

You fact check your earlier accusations yet?

 

[spectra3279]

When a country has two job openings for every person looking for work, trade deficits are actually to our advantage as we are getting goods and services from them at a lower price than we could produce them and as such we have a higher standard of living as a nation at a lower cost.

So it has nothing to do with the Trump supporters view that if one disagrees with him it is due to hate as their view is an emotional as opposed to logical argument.

So I disagree with the fundamental economic fallacy perpetuated by Trump that trade deficits are bad when in fact the are actually good for us as we are exploiting their labor, natural resources and environment to our benefit and their expense. We live at a higher standard of living at their expense.

So you would rather move your base of operations to another cheaper country because it's better for the US?

How exactly is it better? You take jobs from US citizens and give them to some butt scratcher in another country. Exactly how does that help make our economy better?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[sprintcvx]

So you would rather move your base of operations to another cheaper country because it's better for the US?

How exactly is it better? You take jobs from US citizens and give them to some butt scratcher in another country. Exactly how does that help make our economy better?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

It just does.. But you should know that by now.

 

[BONER]

So now China is coming to the table and wanting to negotiate.

Must be that huge concern for the American Taxpayer............................

 

[Uncle Dave]

In a situation with no global alternative, an import tariff only has downside to the American consumer.

Sustained high prices incent industries to invest in alternative bases of manufacturing hurting the long term prospect of Chinas native industries.

Ultimately these alternatives can erode Chinas long term growth. Avoidance of real alternatives is why China to want to resolve.

A given industry is unlikely to make long term plans (a new plant with 15+ year payback) with what is perceived as a temp or short term tariff war.

In a short term deal where no actual manufacturing bases chang - only American consumers get hurt.

UD

 

[wallnutz]

In a situation with no global alternative, an import tariff only has downside to the American consumer.

Sustained high prices incent industries to invest in alternative bases of manufacturing hurting the long term prospect of Chinas native industries.

Ultimately these alternatives can erode Chinas long term growth. Avoidance of real alternatives is why China to want to resolve.

A given industry is unlikely to make long term plans (a new plant with 15+ year payback) with what is perceived as a temp or short term tariff war.

In a short term deal where no actual manufacturing bases chang - only American consumers get hurt.

UD

For a short term as you noted. So when our economy is good, why not fix it now?

 

[530RL]

For a short term as you noted. So when our economy is good, why not fix it now?

Having a tariff war does not fix anything.

Those plants are not coming back to America, they will simply be moved to another low cost country that might not be as low cost as China, but none the less cheaper than America.

Net result, American consumers pay more and the jobs still did not come back.

Unless Trump wants to tariff all 195 countries in the world at various rates to make their entire costs identical to America’s, he is just playing whack a mole at the expense of the American Consumer who will endure higher costs and taxes via tariffs.

 

[BONER]

Just like anything else in Life, only opportunity happens overnight. Success takes years to build. DT knows this because he's the World's best Businessman and Negotiator. Running this Country is running a Business.

Again, if Tariff'd Country doesn't feel it, than why do Tariffs continue to force Negotiations?

Oh, also. Name one Tax you paid because of these Tariffs. I'll wait....

 

[t&y]

So you would rather move your base of operations to another cheaper country because it's better for the US?

How exactly is it better? You take jobs from US citizens and give them to some butt scratcher in another country. Exactly how does that help make our economy better?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Lol.. You misread "US". It doesn't mean the United States... it means his business partners.

 

[BONER]

Having a tariff war does not fix anything.

It does, actually. It got 15k Mexican Troops at the Border.

Done.

 

[530RL]

Oh, also. Name one Tax you paid because of these Tariffs. I'll wait....

The tariff itself.

 

[BONER]

The tariff itself.

That's your answer?! Hahaha!

*points and laughs at 530*

 

[wallnutz]

Having a tariff war does not fix anything.

Those plants are not coming back to America, they will simply be moved to another low cost country that might not be as low cost as China, but none the less cheaper than America.

Net result, American consumers pay more and the jobs still did not come back.

Unless Trump wants to tariff all 195 countries in the world at various rates to make their entire costs identical to America’s, he is just playing whack a mole at the expense of the American Consumer who will endure higher costs and taxes via tariffs.

I'm talking about eveni

Having a tariff war does not fix anything.

Those plants are not coming back to America, they will simply be moved to another low cost country that might not be as low cost as China, but none the less cheaper than America.

Net result, American consumers pay more and the jobs still did not come back.

Unless Trump wants to tariff all 195 countries in the world at various rates to make their entire costs identical to America’s, he is just playing whack a mole at the expense of the American Consumer who will endure higher costs and taxes via tariffs.

Let me ask it this way, Who pays higher tariffs on imports, China or USA?
If China buys corn from us how much do they pay? If we buy corn from China how much do we pay? Don't have time to look it between working on projects this morning.

 

[Uncle Dave]

For a short term as you noted. So when our economy is good, why not fix it now?

Because actually fixing it is hard and takes time. It's easy to "shake things up" - but hard to actually fix things.

Without the longer term plan to incent and reinstall a new manufacturing base - nothing actually gets fixed, and there is short term pain with no long term benefit.





UD

 

[regor]

Because actually fixing it is hard and takes time. It's easy to "shake things up" - but hard to actually fix things.

Without the longer term plan to incent and reinstall a new manufacturing base - nothing actually gets fixed, and there is short term pain with no long term benefit.





UD

What percentage of bringing back manufacturing jobs would you consider to be a tariff success?

 

[wallnutz]

Because actually fixing it is hard and takes time. It's easy to "shake things up" - but hard to actually fix things.

Without the longer term plan to incent and reinstall a new manufacturing base - nothing actually gets fixed, and there is short term pain with no long term benefit.





UD

Did you read my above post? Do you have an answer for that?
I do get what you are saying about bringing manufacturing back, it's not going to happen overnight. But I think that is just one part of the equation. I do believe we pay more for their exports than they pay for our exports. That is evening the playing field to me. I could be wrong on that, but I know that is the way it was years ago.

That and also the intellectual property theft. I know of two companies owned by personal friends that have been flat ripped off by the Chinese. Products copied down to the very last detail. At one time, one of them even had their company name on the copied piece.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I dont spend a ton of time on any given forum I'm likely to miss questions sorry.

I think the rate paid on our imports depends on a bunch of factors and isnt identical across all product groups, but I think you are pointing out that there is an imbalance in % today. (with many places china is just one)
I think where you are going is that if there is substantive inequality in existing trade deals it needs a redo- Im for that and agree
A given rate paid cant really be made up for a gigantic imbalance in volume which is where we are at today.

I agree that IP theft is a huge deal, and I'm all for leveling the field here.
That said only manufacturing capitalizes on IP, and regardless of the policy
If we continue to allow Offshore manufacturing the uniqueness of teh IP goes away.

For example - Mexico knows a hell a lot more about making cars now pre nafta - so simply by allowing the offshoring you transfer gigantic pieces of knowledge.

Interesting to me is that Trump just green lit Huawei (not that any American company will touch it now) - will be interesting to see what happens with Meng.

 

[Uncle Dave]

What percentage of bringing back manufacturing jobs would you consider to be a tariff success?

I not sure I can answer your question but I can give an answer as to what Id consider success.



Id like to see fed and state legislation and accommodation to bring all imported sectors back to the US and tit for tat or better trade policies.

Id like to see policy so sound it can't be undone by the next guy - something I as an owner, investor or stock purchaser can back a 25-year year investment on.

The backbone of the US was built on a manufacturing economy - We let 80% of it go away.

UD

 

[wallnutz]

I dont spend a ton of time on any given forum I'm likely to miss questions sorry.

I think the rate paid on our imports depends on a bunch of factors and isnt identical across all product groups, but I think you are pointing out that there is an imbalance in % today. (with many places china is just one)
I think where you are going is that if there is substantive inequality in existing trade deals it needs a redo- Im for that and agree
A given rate paid cant really be made up for a gigantic imbalance in volume which is where we are at today.

I agree that IP theft is a huge deal, and I'm all for leveling the field here.
That said only manufacturing capitalizes on IP, and regardless of the policy
If we continue to allow Offshore manufacturing the uniqueness of teh IP goes away.

For example - Mexico knows a hell a lot more about making cars now pre nafta - so simply by allowing the offshoring you transfer gigantic pieces of knowledge.

Interesting to me is that Trump just green lit Huawei (not that any American company will touch it now) - will be interesting to see what happens with Meng.

Thanks UD, I honestly think that is what needs to happen. Then some manufacturing will slowly come back. it would be a farce if anyone thought it would all come back. Maybe this is what Trump wants, and just feels hardball is the quickest way there.

 

[regor]

I not sure I can answer your question but I can give an answer as to what Id consider success.



Id like to see fed and state legislation and accommodation to bring all imported sectors back to the US and tit for tat or better trade policies.

Id like to see policy so sound it can't be undone by the next guy - something I as an owner, investor or stock purchaser can back a 25-year year investment on.

The backbone of the US was built on a manufacturing economy - We let 80% of it go away.

UD

Then it’s worth fighting for now.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Thanks UD, I honestly think that is what needs to happen. Then some manufacturing will slowly come back. it would be a farce if anyone thought it would all come back. Maybe this is what Trump wants, and just feels hardball is the quickest way there.

I think the quickest way there is to open the road to investment before you yank the tariff cord.

Then it’s worth fighting for now.

I would argue the intent is great- but without the plan behind it its just a price increase to Americans.

I would debate 530 that its not a "tax", but actually a cost basis increase but I understand his position on this.

In a ready, aim, fire plan.... we went right to " fire" without anything in place behind it.

Good intent - but classic NY guy shit, A smarter more saavy guy would have his ducks lined up better before yanking the "fire" lanyard.

UD

 

[530RL]

I would debate 530 that its not a "tax", but actually a cost basis increase but I understand his position on this.

UD

All I know is what they teach you in school. And at no time did I ever hear someone say that a tariff or a duty was not a tax.

Trump supporters want to say he is for lower taxes, and the only way to do so is to basically take the position that it is not a tax.

In either event, years from now his actions will have changed nothing material and the costs will have been very high. Human nature wants the best deal, and the best deal is always via free markets.

Further, the more Trump mandates businesses undertake higher minimum wages and mandates more US content just for the sake of it needs to be US content, the quicker US businesses will become less competitive in the global market and as a result, the US will lose its #1 rank in GDP that much quicker.

The world is growing faster than the US for obvious demographic reasons, and Trump’s economic policies on trade are making it harder for US companies to keep up with the competition.

And what is most interesting to me is that those who most despise liberal positions of government “making the economy work for everyone”, support a Trump government in this case trying to “make the economy work for everyone”. Government is the problem, unless of course it is a Trump government, then it is the solution. It’s classic cognitive dissonance.


https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tariff.asp

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/what-tariff-and-who-pays-it

 

[Uncle Dave]

I see a tax as no option a fee forced upon my institution by fed, local, or state on a product I sell to an end user.

I see the tariff as an increase in supplier parts (not assembly or manufacturing, we choose to do these things in the US)- I can't source all my parts in the US regardless of my checkbook.

Because I have the option to pass it on to my clients, eat it, or something in the middle its not so much a "tax". - where a tax removes alternatives I may offer to the increase in cost.

UD

 

[530RL]

I see a tax as no option a fee forced upon my institution by fed, local, or state on a product I sell to an end user.

I see the tariff as an increase in supplier parts (not assembly or manufacturing, we choose to do these things in the US)- I can't source all my parts in the US regardless of my checkbook.

Because I have the option to pass it on to my clients, eat it, or something in the middle its not so much a "tax". - where a tax removes alternatives I may offer to the increase in cost.

UD

Fair enough.

But following that logic, not all income tax is a tax. For we can change the characterization of income via financial structuring and as a result, not be required to pay it, defer it to the next owner, defer it to future periods or not pay any at all via death and a step up in basis.

Point being, this has devolved into a futile exercise of arguing whether or not a tariff is a tax, versus will tariffs against one or two countries, bring manufacturing back to America when companies have another 190 to choose from.

Quite frankly its pretty silly as no one is going to change anyone’s mind. I think I’ll go to the hangar and take the bird out for a spin with my free market whore dollars. Just like Ronald Reagan intended........

 

[wzuber]

And what is most interesting to me is that those who most despise liberal positions of government “making the economy work for everyone”, support a Trump government in this case trying to “make the economy work for everyone”.

I'm not so sure anybody/everybody is against "making the economy work for everyone" as a general idea or concept but the way in which the two parties choose to go about achieving it. Clearly the dems want to tax us producers and give to the non-producers (aka freeloaders) in an effort to buy their votes only to get essentially nothing in the end. I believe the Trump Concept is to tax the producers less allowing them prosper, grow and expand their businesses, start new enterprises and as a result create more jobs and opportunities for those so driven to do so and allow people to move up in the careers thereby creating job growth opportunities from the lower levels to the upper levels of their respective occupations, industries etc.

 

[530RL]

I'm not so sure anybody/everybody is against "making the economy work for everyone" as a general idea or concept but the way in which the two parties choose to go about achieving it. Clearly the dems want to tax the producers and give to the non-producers (aka freeloaders) in an effort to buy their votes only to get essentially nothing in the end. I believe the Trump Concept is to tax the producers less allowing them prosper, grow and expand their businesses, start new enterprises and as a result create more jobs and opportunities for those so driven to do so and allow people to move up in the careers thereby creating job growth opportunities from the lower levels to the upper levels of their respective occupations, industries etc.

Fair enough,

So how does Trump's tariffs policies that raise prices on consumers, raise taxes on US importers, put US multi-national corporations at a cost disadvantage with respect to exporting goods, and cut off some of the largest agricultural export markets to US farmers fit in with your description above?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Fair enough.

But following that logic, not all income tax is a tax. For we can change the characterization of income via financial structuring and as a result, not be required to pay it, defer it to the next owner, defer it to future periods or not pay any at all via death and a step up in basis.

Point being, this has devolved into a futile exercise of arguing whether or not a tariff is a tax, versus will tariffs against one or two countries, bring manufacturing back to America when companies have another 190 to choose from.

Quite frankly its pretty silly as no one is going to change anyone’s mind. I think I’ll go to the hangar and take the bird out for a spin with my free market whore dollars. Just like Ronald Reagan intended........

not all income tax is a tax.-

agreed it can often be passed on, waived, or deducted in some way.

I think we agree on several things -

The main one being a short term tariffs mainly hurts American consumers that the notion the "Chinese pay it" isn't the case at all.

We agree its a cost increase - our mechanisms are monikered differently but as it sits today in many sectors it's some form of increase that Americans pay - regardless of where it sits on the ledger.



UD

 

[530RL]

not all income tax is a tax.-

agreed it can often be passed on, waived, or deducted in some way.

I think we agree on several things -

The main one being a short term tariffs mainly hurts American consumers that the notion the "Chinese pay it" isn't the case at all.

We agree its a cost increase - our mechanisms are monikered differently but as it sits today in many sectors it's some form of increase that Americans pay - regardless of where it sits on the ledger.



UD

Agreed.

I think we also agree Trump's current tariff policies makes US companies less competitive as opposed to more competitive, limits their flexibility with respect to product innovation/improvement, raises their costs relative to global competitors, and lowers their ability to grow exports and compete with global competitors.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I'm not so sure anybody/everybody is against "making the economy work for everyone" as a general idea or concept but the way in which the two parties choose to go about achieving it. Clearly the dems want to tax us producers and give to the non-producers (aka freeloaders) in an effort to buy their votes only to get essentially nothing in the end. I believe the Trump Concept is to tax the producers less allowing them prosper, grow and expand their businesses, start new enterprises and as a result create more jobs and opportunities for those so driven to do so and allow people to move up in the careers thereby creating job growth opportunities from the lower levels to the upper levels of their respective occupations, industries etc.

So far the execution (d-) doesn't meet the concept (a+)

There are no significant changes in our business environment to effect any real change.

After Nafta- to USMCA none of the factories came back - offshoring was rewarded for leaving.
The "here it comes" moment of change that was promised never happened and in fact got worse.

Agreed - the dems freely give away others money for clout.
What we need is an Eisenhower Republican in office - not the current version of "republicans".



UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

Agreed.

I think we also agree Trump's current tariff policies makes US companies less competitive as opposed to more competitive, limits their flexibility with respect to product innovation/improvement, raises their costs relative to global competitors, and lowers their ability to grow exports and compete with global competitors.

This has happened to us.

My competition either builds offshore anyway, or brings it in sideways through a foreign country, and my costs have gone up on the sole source parts I can't get elsewhere.