First date with your wife and/or girl of your dreams..

[mbrown2]

Met my wife in high school we had a class together...both Jr's...tried to flirt with her... Saw her before that class and always thought she was pretty but she never really gave me the time of day... So once we were in class together I was able to get to know her better. We went to a couple of dances/parties but it sort of fizzled... She thought I was a player ....and probably right... but we remained friends. As things slowed with Jamie, I met another girl Lynette different high school and we started dating ....for like 9 months...but during that time Jamie and I remained friends and became closer... She became the girl Lynette worried about......well Lynette and I hit a lull and likely because I really wanted Jamie and we were growing beyond friends... Well ended up breaking up Lynette and Jamie and I started dating officially...I loved Lynette too and felt bad how the breakup came to fruition but I owned it and she hated me for it... At that young age the heart does what it does.. That was 35 years ago, 27 of them married...so breaking up with Lynette, who was great, was worth it.

So to answer your question....just cause it does seem not perfect now.....it may change with time. Humans are social beings and the more time spent together you will either grow together or grow apart...you can't change this courting artificially....

Someone said it earlier....keep her in the lineup but don't push all your chips in at this point...

 

[jetboatperformance]

A guy once told me "marriages are like corvettes , you need on to wreck and one to drive" My first wife was a Cheerleader /wealthy family hottie who was f*king around before we were 6 months married , Met my current wife of 46 years cruisin SLO she was 17, loved her from the moment I met her , never looked back best thing ever happened to me

 

[PlumLoco]

I was dating a girl for about 5 months. Shannon was 18 and I was 25. We spent a lot of time naked, but at some point I decided that it wasn't going anywhere. There was no hard feelings, I just was ready to move on.
Shannon offered to set me up with her best friend, whom I had never met. I didn't think she was serious, but she showed me a picture of the two of them in the bathtub together feeding each other pudding. She said she thought we would get along pretty good. Ok NOW I'm intersted.

A few days later I called her and set up a date to go to the movies.
Deanna and I dated for 6 years, some of them I was still sowing some wild oats. But I finally saw the light, put all the others away, and we were married in 1994. It was a very good decision. I could not imagine a better life partner to go through this world with.

 

[petie6464]

All of my ex- wife's claimed I was the one, for most once the yo stopped rolling they were down the road.

The others stuck around for a while, not 100% why a few of them blew out maybe that just couldn't take my foul and abusive demeanor?

 

[Cdog]

I wonder if the online dating & apps like tinder has changed the dynamic to just hooking up and not setting down like us 40+ crowd has.

I read about a lot of train wrecks. I’m not in that world anymore so I really don’t know what’s true or not.

 

[attitude]

I wonder if the online dating & apps like tinder has changed the dynamic to just hooking up and not setting down like us 40+ crowd has.

I read about a lot of train wrecks. I’m not in that world anymore so I really don’t know what’s true or not.

When it comes to tinder it really just depends on looks. From what I’ve noticed is if you are an average looking guy who wants to hook up you will usually get passed over by girls in your league because the are looking for guys out of their league who are desperate lol. I do have some buddies who get more ass than a toilet seat on those apps but they are the same guys who could do that in a bar.

 

[pronstar]

Since we’re posting pictures…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[throttle]

mmmm, I took her with me to buy a trailer, promised her drinks and dinner after I made her back up the trailer first

 

[mbrown2]

I was dating a girl for about 5 months. Shannon was 18 and I was 25. We spent a lot of time naked, but at some point I decided that it wasn't going anywhere. There was no hard feelings, I just was ready to move on.
Shannon offered to set me up with her best friend, whom I had never met. I didn't think she was serious, but she showed me a picture of the two of them in the bathtub together feeding each other pudding. She said she thought we would get along pretty good. Ok NOW I'm intersted.

A few days later I called her and set up a date to go to the movies.
Deanna and I dated for 6 years, some of them I was still sowing some wild oats. But I finally saw the light, put all the others away, and we were married in 1994. It was a very good decision. I could not imagine a better life partner to go through this world with.

Shannon was a stand up girl...where did she end up? For her to be mature enough that she knew you guys were not a long term match but to see her friend as a better fit...talk about selfless.

 

[Bowtiepower00]

I was a senior, she was a sophomore. Double date to the movies with some mutual friends and to the beach after. Lol. That was 1999. 22 years later here we are…. Not sure how the new generation does it with the social media bullshit.

 

[TITTIES AND BEER]

Went to high school with her , partying on 2 Nd st El Cajon Firestone tire store one night both drinking ( 17/16 her ) anyway I ask her if she wanted to go 4 wheel n ( that line worked a lot ) so off we go the hills above granite Hills high school water tank not to many trucks could make it and you had time to finish your Business before it got crowded it was a tough hill you could see anyone coming up the hill , so we are getting to business at hand having a good time in my Jimmy so I’m push n her head to the south she says “ I don’t do that “ I said “ long walk back to town “ 43 years later - love of my life

 

[napanutt]

Cruising Jefferson street in Napa was the thing to do to see and be seen when I met my wife 1983.
She was with a mutual friend. They saw me. Wifey asked her friend who I was.
We hung out a few times at her friends place before I got the courage to make a move.
Couple months later was her 21st birthday. Took her to Tahoe. I was playing blackjack, she was watching. I was 19 and she got carded.
Married 1987.

 

[PlumLoco]

Shannon was a stand up girl...where did she end up? For her to be mature enough that she knew you guys were not a long term match but to see her friend as a better fit...talk about selfless.

Both girls were from Norco (Horsetown U.S.A.). Shannon married a redneck mechanic who is a great guy and they are living up near Yosemite. We used to see them often, but haven't lately. Shannon's parents retired to Lake Nacimiento and we all boated up there often. She runs a small interior design place now, and teaches art classes.
I consider her a blessing in my life, she has been a solid friend.

 

[PRORACER7474]

This got me thinking what would have happened if we did not decide friday nite to make a overnite trip to Blythe, what would have happened if we did not decide to go to Charlies Bar? what would happened if my wife did not go to Charlies Bar? Would I still have 2 great kids, one a 5x NHRA World Champion and one a Lawyer, would I have been as successful as I am with someone else? would I be married to the same person or on number 3 or 4? would I have ended up in Vegas or stayed in Socal? so many what ifs. Has anyone else ever thought what would of happened is you were not just at the right place at the right time, it was not like I knew anyone she knew or vice vrs, So our one chance of meeting was a 1 hours window at a run down bar in a town I had never been to on a Sat night in 1983

 

[LBsuperJET]

We were fixed up in 2011 by her mom and my best friends mom who worked together. I picked her up to go have coffee and she said "how about a beer instead?"

I was hooked from that moment on LOL. We closed O'Malley's in Seal Beach down that night talking and we go back there every once in a while and try to sit in the same seats and pound beers. 17YO stepson just graduated high school and we have a 4YO daughter together. I married out of my league!

Haven't introduced Sarah to the river just yet (been that long since I've owned a boat) but it is a goal of mine soon.

 

[1tonfun]

When we were kids we lived down the street from each other, her older sister used to babysit me when I was a kid. They moved when she was 5 yrs old. Set up on a blind date at the last minute to take her to her homecoming in 1986 since her date couldn't make it. Married in 1989 and still together loving life. Can't imagine what life would be like without her.

 

[TPC]

I was sitting in my truck waiting for Best Buy to open.
A group of people were out front also waiting.

A nice looking girl in size 3 pink levis, long hair down to her shapely, trim ass, flat stomach, cute face, button nose, perky boobs was in that group. I took note. "Yeah, those were the days."

So Best Buy opened. Everyone went in and I headed to the counter get one of the kids an iPod/Mp3 kinda dealio.

Then I heard behind me "What's the best one to buy?" - In a slow, dick hardening, Southern drawl.
It was the girl in the Pink levis there to buy the same thing.
I said "the Sony," grabbed one and headed over to look at something else in route to the cashier.
Then she appeared again and we chatted.

What the hell I asked her to lunch, she accepted. We walked over to Fridays.

"I have a tri tip slow cooking in the crockpot if you like to stop by tonight at 7 for dinner"
I asked her. Bold step but what the hell.

She accepted and at exactly at 7 the doorbell rang.

That weekend we went to the river, Foxes, Desert bar,, it went well. On the way home we spent a few days at Dumont Dunes. First thing she took one of my YFZ 450s up comp hill full throttle, never missed a shift. Fearless.

3 months later she mentioned in a birthday card she "wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, we're a good team." I still have that card.
Shortly after on a boat trip the sun was going down on Lake Mead and a stranded boater off in the distance was waving a life vest at us. We towed him in and he gave me his card and said "No one ever gets a discount, but I'll see to it you will." He was an exec with Tiffany's.

I took advantage of that and got Ali a really bad ass ring. Fucking dope. Thank you Sporting Wood Angie for your guidance in picking one out.
6 months later we married and that was 15 years ago.

Still going strong.
Most amazing woman I've ever known.

 

[coolchange]

“Can’t imagine what life would be without her” Ya I do that every day.

 

[Skyskier]

you didn't give the guy the have her home by 11 speech and if ya did I would start packing the car with lyme trashbags a shovel and load the shptgun....

THIS served me well with BOTH my daughters, ages 45 & 43 today,............................................10 Rules For Dating My Daughter...........hope this helps,...........

Rule One:
If you pull into my driveway and honk you'd better be delivering a package, because you're sure not picking anything up.

Rule Two:
You do not touch my daughter in front of me. You may glance at her, so long as you do not peer at anything below her neck. If you cannot keep your eyes or hands off of my daughter's body, I will remove them.

Rule Three:
I am aware that it is considered fashionable for boys of your age to wear their trousers so loosely that they appear to be falling off their hips. Please don't take this as an insult, but you and all of your friends are complete idiots. Still, I want to be fair and open minded about this issue, so I propose this compromise: You may come to the door with your underwear showing and your pants ten sizes too big, and I will not object. However, in order to ensure that your clothes do not, in fact,
come off during the course of your date with my daughter, I will take my electric nail gun and fasten your trousers securely in place to your waist.

Rule Four:
I'm sure you've been told that in today's world, sex without utilising a "barrier method" of some kind can kill you. Let me elaborate, when it comes to sex, I am the barrier, and I will kill you.

Rule Five:
It is usually understood that in order for us to get to know each other, we should talk about sports, politics, and other issues of the day. Please do not do this. The only information I require from you is an indication of when you expect to have my daughter safely back at my house, and the only word I need from you on this subject is "early."

Rule Six:
I have no doubt you are a popular fellow, with many opportunities to date other girls. This is fine with me as long as it is okay with my daughter. Otherwise, once you have gone out with my little girl, you will continue to date no one but her until she is finished with you. If you make her cry, I will make you cry.

Rule Seven:
As you stand in my front hallway, waiting for my daughter to appear, and more than an hour goes by, do not sigh and fidget. If you want to be on time for the movie, you should not be dating. My daughter is putting on her makeup, a process that can take longer than painting the Golden Gate Bridge, so, Instead of just standing there, why don't you do something useful, like changing the oil in my car?

Rule Eight:
The following places are not appropriate for a date with my daughter: Places where there are beds, sofas, or anything softer than a wooden stool. Places where there are no parents, policemen, or nuns within eyesight. Places where there is darkness. Places where there is dancing, holding hands, or happiness. Places where the ambient temperature is warm enough to induce my daughter to wear shorts, tank tops, midriff T-shirts, or anything other than overalls, a sweater, and a goose down parka - zipped up to her throat. Movies with a strong romantic or sexual theme are to be avoided; movies which features chain saws are okay. Hockey games are okay. Old folks homes are better.

Rule Nine:
Do not lie to me. I may appear to be a pot-bellied, balding, middle-aged, dim-witted has-been. But on issues relating to my daughter, I am the all-knowing, merciless god of your universe. If I ask you where you are going and with whom, you have one chance to tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I have a shotgun, a shovel, and five acres behind the house. Do not trifle with me.

Rule Ten:
Be afraid. Be very afraid. It takes very little for me to mistake the sound of your car in the driveway for a chopper coming in over a rice paddy near Hanoi. When my Agent Orange starts acting up, the voices in my head frequently tell me to clean the guns as I wait for you to bring my daughter home. As soon as you pull into the driveway you should exit your car with both hands in plain sight. Speak the perimeter password, announce in a clear voice that you have brought my daughter home safely and early, then return to your car - there is no need for you to come inside. The camouflaged face at the window is mine.

 

[traquer]

This thread made me smile! So many good stories. I want what you guys are having, this one isn't the one but she's out there!

 

[Xtrmwakeboarder]

I was sitting in my truck waiting for Best Buy to open.
A group of people were out front also waiting.

A nice looking girl in size 3 pink levis, long hair down to her shapely, trim ass, flat stomach, cute face, button nose, perky boobs was in that group. I took note. "Yeah, those were the days."

So Best Buy opened. Everyone went in and I headed to the counter get one of the kids an iPod/Mp3 kinda dealio.

Then I heard behind me "What's the best one to buy?" - In a slow, dick hardening, Southern drawl.
It was the girl in the Pink levis there to buy the same thing.
I said "the Sony," grabbed one and headed over to look at something else in route to the cashier.
Then she appeared again and we chatted.

What the hell I asked her to lunch, she accepted. We walked over to Fridays.

"I have a tri tip slow cooking in the crockpot if you like to stop by tonight at 7 for dinner"
I asked her. Bold step but what the hell.

She accepted and at exactly at 7 the doorbell rang.

That weekend we went to the river, Foxes, Desert bar,, it went well. On the way home we spent a few days at Dumont Dunes. First thing she took one of my YFZ 450s up comp hill full throttle, never missed a shift. Fearless.

3 months later she mentioned in a birthday card she "wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, we're a good team." I still have that card.
Shortly after on a boat trip the sun was going down on Lake Mead and a stranded boater off in the distance was waving a life vest at us. We towed him in and he gave me his card and said "No one ever gets a discount, but I'll see to it you will." He was an exec with Tiffany's.

I took advantage of that and got Ali a really bad ass ring. Fucking dope. Thank you Sporting Wood Angie for helping me pick it out.
6 months later we married and that was 15 years ago.

Still going strong.
Most amazing woman I've ever known.

Great story, TPC. I do miss your old tales of single life on Hotboat though..... For some reason, your use of damfino always stuck with me. lol

 

[TPC]

Great story, TPC. I do miss your old tales of single life on Hotboat though..... For some reason, your use of damfino always stuck with me. lol

Best reply around drunks at the bar when any questions pop up.

 

[HocusPocus]

Certainly not love at first site for her, I think she may have even disliked me all together. Not sure how we eventually fell in love and neither one of us can remember even deciding on getting married. I do know our first date was to a gun range, we had one at the place I worked at and I was one of the range masters. 32 years, 4 kids and one grandson later we are still loving life together.
Pic not in Hawaii but in Havasu on the island near the little lighthouse close to the channel.

 

[Mrs. Riley1]

I met my husband in the parking lot of a bar. My girlfriend had been talking to a guy all night and he offered us a ride home. As we were walking to his truck, two other guys came running up and got in as well. When we got to my friend’s house she and the guy kept talking so I was left with the other two. One of them pulled out a tall can and I asked him to give it to me. He said no, but he would share it with me.
We went on our first date a week later. We started out at Buffalo Wild Wings and ended up in Laughlin for four days. We just celebrated 12 years together with 8 years married.

Back in the day

 

[81Sprint]

1st wife- High school sweetheart married at 18, divorced at 20.
2nd wife- They say you never take a stripper home, well i did and then married her. Was fun for a minute, then it was pure hell.
3rd and final- met on EHarmony in '07 when it was the new thing, married 4 months later. She takes care of me and puts up with my shit which is no easy task, She's a keeper

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

I feel like I'm reading a Cosmo mag in a Doctor's office.

 

[TITTIES AND BEER]

I feel like I'm reading a Cosmo mag in a Doctor's office.

and Jack n off ?

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

and Jack n off ?

Nah, none of your wives are that hot. And I'm not into Grads either.

 

[Cray Paper]

Lots of great testimonials posted about how we found love, lost it, kept it and or found it again. It doesn't matter how or why, the most important thing is to have it and be happy.
I met my 3rd and final wife between my Sophomore and Junior year in HS. I recall thinking she was the most beautiful girl I had ever seen. We went to a year round HS and little did I know she would be working next to me soon at Round Table Pizza in Citrus Heights Sacramento. We connected in a way that teenagers today cannot comprehend, and had a relationship that formed what I wanted in relationships from that day forwards.
It didn't last through our senior year in HS but the impact she had on me, my life and how I looked at things changed because of her that were so positive later in life I can never thank her enough. We connected in the summer of 1986 and that formed my objectives for what I have looked for in a mate that has endured for several decades. We broke up early in our SR year in HS but I knew she was my soulmate and always held out hope that we would reconnect.

30 years plus passed, a 25 year relationship with another women, 19 year marriage with 2 awesome sons later, I was left with being attacked and bombarded with no hope of a future. I was at the bottom of my life experience at that point in time and it went to the highest point in a shockingly short amount of time later.

Then my soulmate called and left a message on my work phone. Yes ( Paul Harvey voice is implied!) my soulmate from HS called and and wanted to reconnect. That was on 5/15/2019. In the past 2 years we have reconnected, she left her job of almost 20 years to move from Sacramento to the Non Liberal part of Western Washington, we bought a home together, were married in our back yard on 9/14/2019 and have been mostly happy since. She is the best thing that has ever happened to me, back in the 80's and now. She changed my life was I was a kid and is changing my life now, in a good way. She has always made me a better human being, then and now.

 

[Cray Paper]

Before and after, 1987 and 2020.

 

[Blue Oval]

I first met my wife when I picked up my fire gear from my Fire Chief. She was 6 years younger then me. She was my Chief’s daughter. A couple months went by and I asked her out. A day before we were suppose to go out she called and canceled. I told her you have my number, call me if you want to go out. A couple months went by, it was the 4th of July. I was always looking for people to drive my Father’s old cars in the Parade. Her girl friends were here from college and all agreed to drive a car. They talked her in to calling me back. Our first date was on a 22ft Glastron. The boat broke down in the middle of the lake and overheated. There was a couple of my friends with us. She always laughs and said all she did on our first date was stare at my butt sticking out of the engine hatch. September 1st will be our 31 wedding anniversary. We have twin boys and many years of boating together and still like each other.

 

[28Eliminator]

My wife (at the time) was having an affair with my current wife’s husband. We were all originally friends. The ex husband started sending us on “dates” while our other halves were busy at trade shows and crap. After we both realized what was up, we both left our ex’s, started hanging out, and now 21 years together. My ex ended up in jail for embezzlement 3 years after we split, her ex died of a massive heart attack 2 years after we got together…. Karma .

 

[RVR SWPR]

Jody responsible for me still being this side of the grass (rocks & sand) at my age. I appreciate having had the time to enjoy a good life for 43 years.

 

[stoker2001]

View attachment 1034714

View attachment 1034715

Before and after, 1987 and 2020.

CH is a small town,i grew up there..you recall any Krafts?

 

[LuauLounge]

She picked me up in a bar 50 years ago this November. Been together ever since and married 24 years.
You can’t stop growing older, but no one says you have to grow up.

 

[mbrown2]

My wife (at the time) was having an affair with my current wife’s husband. We were all originally friends. The ex husband started sending us on “dates” while our other halves were busy at trade shows and crap. After we both realized what was up, we both left our ex’s, started hanging out, and now 21 years together. My ex ended up in jail for embezzlement 3 years after we split, her ex died of a massive heart attack 2 years after we got together…. Karma .

Wow...that is some crazy karma shit....amazing how things work out...

 

[j21black]

I actually cold called my wife before ever meeting.

We talked on the phone for several hours - All was well - She said she'd call me the next day and never did, so I said the hell with it and went about my business.

A couple months later, my phone rang....It was her, apparently she thought I was someone else, and when she mentioned it to her friend, her friend said, oh no, you are mistaken, you better call him back...So she did, we dated off and on for a few years - (took a year off, her choice not mine) - One day her dad called me out of the blue and asked if I'd speak to her if she called me - That was 2003, been together since.

 

[Nanu/Nanu]

I met my wife through her brother (brother and i worked together) at the time i was seeing a different girl but wasnt really into her.

Couple guys from the hotshot crew i was on went to Powell to unwind for days off after working fires on the way back we picked her up in Flagstaff. I was the DD while everyone else was drinking and she rode up front with me. We chatted the whole way home. Shortly later i ditched the girl i was with for her and that was the best decision ever!

She can launch and retrieve a boat whether shes in the truck or boat. And she can rip like no other on her trx250r or trx450r. Shes a nurse that can patch me up. Too smart for my shenanigans and blessed me with two amazing little girls. And most importantly she loves God. We've been married for ten years this June and together for 14.

 

[mbrown2]

RDP braintrust question. Not sure if this will make me feel better or worse about myself lol.. But.. What did your girl say, how did she feel about you when you first started talking to each other?

Was it love at first sight? Or did she want to have nothing to do with you lol

I'm currently in the second camp with an awesome girl, but my 2 best buddies said their wife told them the same thing when they first met them (didn't like them). Thx!

Since someone bumped this old thread... @traquer how did things work?

 

[Yoshiro]

Quote from a former boss I had:

My wife and I have been happily married for 8 years! We just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary.

 

[Cdog]

Old thread bumped. Here's a pic of us from New years 22/23. I've got less hair and her boobs got even bigger. HAHA! 20 yrs and going strong. We're in our mid 40's now.

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

Lots of great stories and photos. Love the "then and now" photos.

I'm envious of you guys that have been lucky enough to find "the one", especially those with long term marriages. Nothing better in life than growing old with someone you love, watching your kids grow up and have their own kids. All the boats, cars, fancy houses and other crap are just stuff that comes and goes. Family is forever.

I kind of fucked up my life. I'm 66 with no wife or kids and no likely prospects.

 

[clarence]

I kind of fucked up my life. I'm 66 with no wife or kids and no likely prospects.

You've probably another ~20 years to change things up.

 

[HNL2LHC]

You've probably another ~20 years to change things up.

X2. It is never too late. It is tough both single and married.

I will bite on the thread topic. The wife and I have been married for 30 years now. We both worked in the same industry. She worked at a company that I worked with. We talked almost daily. I decided to move to CA after we had been talking for about 18 months. I knew now one in CA so we met up and were friend for a year. We both had relationships and we again were friends. We would go snowboarding and Skiing as well as weekend with other friends. We started dating 9 months before I decided to move back to Hawaii. She said that she wanted to go and I said let’s get married so we did. We have had many ups and downs in the 30 years. But she has been a great partner for those years. The hard part is the medical challenges that she has had in th elast 3 yeaRS. Things are not the same and still great partners just that she lost a bit of her ability and a lot more on my shoulders. Now the goal is to make the best of the years that we have left because who knows that will end…..

 

[Cdog]

Lots of great stories and photos. Love the "then and now" photos.

I'm envious of you guys that have been lucky enough to find "the one", especially those with long term marriages. Nothing better in life than growing old with someone you love, watching your kids grow up and have their own kids. All the boats, cars, fancy houses and other crap are just stuff that comes and goes. Family is forever.

I kind of fucked up my life. I'm 66 with no wife or kids and no likely prospects.

Are you in Scottsdale this week for Barrett J?

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

Are you in Scottsdale this week for Barrett J?

I'll be there Monday afternoon. Will be in town until Feb 2.

 

[Cdog]

I'll be there Monday afternoon. Will be in town until Feb 2.

Look me up for lunch & a beer.

Corey 480-720-7649

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

You've probably another ~20 years to change things up.

I've kind of given up hope. At my age, the available pool is pretty small and those in it seem to carry a lot of baggage. I also live in a rural area and not too many woman want to live out in the sticks. Plus, being a short ugly Asian dude doesn't help. Asians are the least desirable race for American women. I've heard this line a hundred times, "You're a great guy. You're just not my type".

I can deal with being single the rest of my life. What's tough is not having any kids, especially as I age. It's funny (not ha ha funny) when I talk to my buddies that are having problems with their wives or kids and they tell me I'm lucky being single, I have a bunch of toys and I can do what ever I want whenever I want. I tell them they are the lucky ones. Check your ego and your pride and work things out. When you're old and sitting on that rocking chair on the front porch with your wife of 60 years watching as the kids and grandkids pull in the driveway for the family get together and you all are talking and telling "Remember When" stories, you'll be glad you did.

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

Look me up for lunch & a beer.

Corey 480-720-7649

I'll hit you up. Thanks.

-Al

 

[2Driver]

First date with your wife and/or girl of your dreams.​

For your health and welfare it’s best to refer to these people as the same person.