Fatal on River nearBullhead-OUI

[PhyrMnGil]

Terrible accident. RIP to the young life lost.
Since it appears no one was at the incident, anything about it is just speculation as to cause and fault.

I will offer a personal observation. Having been involved in EMS and a Paramedic for 34 years, it is my humble opinion that anyone who thinks ingestion of alcohol does not impair ones ability to react instinctively, affect perception or reaction time, is kidding themselves. If they have been fortunate enough to not have had an incident, no matter how minor, congratulations..
I'm sure there are some who disagree, but that's ok. Just my opinion.
And for full disclosure, yes i have had a drink or two while boating, but that was well over 25 years ago once i became responsible for not only myself but a wife and children. I can wait till the end of the day or if someone else is driving. I'm not prepared to lose everything i've worked hard for so I can have a drink if an incident were to occur.

 

[rivermobster]

You are starting to sound like Dave. It's very unbecoming of you.

Now you're just being mean...

 

[grumpy88]

Thank God nobody on here drives a car over the speed limit , tired or while talking on a phone . I bet all three are the leading cause of car crashes . The radio or gps are probably in there too . There are two families that will never be the same again and that's the real tragedy . Life is precious . RIP

 

[BHC Vic]

Thank God nobody on here drives a car over the speed limit , tired or while talking on a phone . I bet all three are the leading cause of car crashes . The radio or gps are probably in there too . There are two families that will never be the same again and that's the real tragedy . Life is precious . RIP

No one defends the guy texting. We were gonna hang Bruce gender for it 😊

 

[867-5309]

Your Statement was Havasu is the most dangerous place in the country. Don't forget to include all the other check point data as well.

Hate to think you were just talking out of your ass when you made a statement like that.

We will be waiting...

I don't have have the statistics showing how dangerous it is but I do know that some insurance companies, who probably do their own statistical research, will not insure vessels on Havasu. I'm sure they didn't make that decision without research

I'm not sure of any other waterways with that insurance restriction.

 

[rivermobster]

I don't have have the statistics showing how dangerous it is but I do know that some insurance companies, who probably do their own statistical research, will not insure vessels on Havasu. I'm sure they didn't make that decision without research

I'm not sure of any other waterways with that insurance restriction.

Share with the class bro, so we all know what companies these are!

 

[JD D05]

I don't have have the statistics showing how dangerous it is but I do know that some insurance companies, who probably do their own statistical research, will not insure vessels on Havasu. I'm sure they didn't make that decision without research

I'm not sure of any other waterways with that insurance restriction.

I would really like to know who. Some insurance companies won't insure you if you drink...period. INS companies carve out all kinds of risks for all kinds of reasons.

 

[BasilHayden]

It's not just possible he was drunk, it's a fact. From the Havasu News:

Sir, while I understand your stance, charged and convicted are two very different things. Not a fact until convicted. In my opinion, most jurisdictions will "charge" if you are involved in an incident if you have any alcohol in your system as it "could" have been a factor.

Just as an fyi, and I do not condone oui in any extreme sense, though I am apparently an outlaw as i feel a couple beers if operating in a responsible manner, no 100mph runs but reasonable etc. I was coming down the river on Saturday and 4 PWC's were riding like idiots. Swerving across the river with no concern to the traffic coming behind them. Well as I passed one of them at 40mph after following for a while, about 5 minutes, I gave them the universal wtf with the back of my hand. Not the finger, but the back of the hand wtf. For the next mile as I passed the sandbar one of these clowns was passing me so he could "skid out and roost us". We were so freaked out that he would drop off his ski while in front of us that after a while I finally gunned it when he was off to the side. I finally put some ground between us and these clowns.

Now had he fallen in front of me it would have been my fault? Right? I mean I did have a corona light at Topock for lunch before responsibly trying to defensively travel down river. Its bullshit but I know I would have been assumed guilty unless I could have proven what a complete jackoff this guy had been. I hope those at the sandbar saw some of the antics, but we were so freaked out that even my video friendly brother was slow to the uptake on videoing this bullshit.


I am very sorry for the loss of life, but am unwilling to just bandwagon convict someone who happened to be in the vicinity of an accident. I pray for the reasonable assertion of responsibility by those in power. If in fact a drunk driver was responsible then hang em high, if on the other hand the young person was acting completely irresponsible, then lord help the boater affected by their actions.

So sad either way.

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

 

[BHC Vic]

Sir, while I understand your stance, charged and convicted are two very different things. Not a fact until convicted. In my opinion, most jurisdictions will "charge" if you are involved in an incident if you have any alcohol in your system as it "could" have been a factor.

Just as an fyi, and I do not condone oui in any extreme sense, though I am apparently an outlaw as i feel a couple beers if operating in a responsible manner, no 100mph runs but reasonable etc. I was coming down the river on Saturday and 4 PWC's were riding like idiots. Swerving across the river with no concern to the traffic coming behind them. Well as I passed one of them at 40mph after following for a while, about 5 minutes, I gave them the universal wtf with the back of my hand. Not the finger, but the back of the hand wtf. For the next mile as I passed the sandbar one of these clowns was passing me so he could "skid out and roost us". We were so freaked out that he would drop off his ski while in front of us that after a while I finally gunned it when he was off to the side. I finally put some ground between us and these clowns.

Now had he fallen in front of me it would have been my fault? Right? I mean I did have a corona light at Topock for lunch before responsibly trying to defensively travel down river. Its bullshit but I know I would have been assumed guilty unless I could have proven what a complete jackoff this guy had been. I hope those at the sandbar saw some of the antics, but we were so freaked out that even my video friendly brother was slow to the uptake on videoing this bullshit.


I am very sorry for the loss of life, but am unwilling to just bandwagon convict someone who happened to be in the vicinity of an accident. I pray for the reasonable assertion of responsibility by those in power. If in fact a drunk driver was responsible then hang em high, if on the other hand the young person was acting completely irresponsible, then lord help the boater affected by their actions.

So sad either way.

I'm going to have to disagree. After taking a dui to trail w a case that should have easily won having witnesses take the stand. In my opinion if you're charged you're going to be convicted. I've not much faith in the justice system. And the young girl was a passenger not sure what she could have done to be at fault?

 

[Waffles]

I love the outcome of these threads. Lol

 

[riverroyal]

AZGFD indicated they will be releasing a press statement. I asked for and received approval to give arrest and boat numbers only and will let agency release the rest as they deem appropriate.

and that's the guys that 'thought' they were fine. The real drunks went around the Island

 

[riverroyal]

in experienced boaters are the biggest cause. make a license mandatory. The smallest training and education can make a difference for a NEW boater. Nobody here is new, we are all the best in the country, just ask us.

 

[milkmoney]

Again. Some real stupid comments in this thread as it continues on. [emoji107][emoji202]

 

[milkmoney]

You are starting to sound like Dave. It's very unbecoming of you.

Thank you. Joe if you remotely agree with anything grads says , well jus move ur ass to the Sacramento area. [emoji202]

 

[riverroyal]

Again. Some real stupid comments in this thread as it continues on. [emoji107][emoji202]

about the license? Id go get one, if it makes one dumb fuck on havasu a bit smarter then sign me up. im NOT talking about my freedom and rights as a American either. I know its another form of tax and big brother. So what, we are already living that life. That ship has sailed in our lifetime. Just enjoy everyday, it ends as fast as the little girls did

 

[Mr. C]

Damn, I didn't realize i was irresponsible and selfish because I had a couple beers while on the lake in 110 degree heat. I might have to take a look at my inner self and make some improvements.:rolleyes



I think some of you confuse having a beer or two and being a drunk boater.

 

[boatpi]

I am not condoning OUI, just presenting an illustration here...

Just because you are charged with OUI, even in a fatal, justice can prevail. Anyone remember the fatal a few years back, child killed in a boat N/B just south of the I-40 bridge? Southbound boater was charged with OUi in the fatal. Basically two boats hit nearly head on.

I did much of the insurance investigation on that, including a complete video re enacting the incident based on all witness accounts and LE reports.

The OUI southbound boater was put on trial, manslaughter, OUI, etc. He had a jury trial and was only convicted of OUI. Jury was out very quick.

My point is, as bad as these fatal incidents are, being OUI can be contributing cause but not a criminal act that was a primary cause of the death, etc.

 

[RiverDave]

You can't prove a negative, but that doesn't mean you should have your head up your ass either.

The statistics in the 2014 USCG report I quoted above state unequivocally that of the fatal accidents in that year, 40% occurred in a boat driven by a drunk operator.

I'll say it again. The facts are simple. If you were in a boat crash in 2014 and a fatality occurred, 40% of the operators were drunk.

How's that for "argument purposes"?

The person driving the PWC was 42 years old. As for DC-88's answer, there has been no indication that the PWC was a rental. Several other posters have blamed the crash on driver inexperience or claimed that it was a rental without any factual basis.

So far there are only two known facts about the incident, one, a thirteen year old girl was killed, and two, the person that struck and killed her was drunk.

The number of posters ignoring those facts while substituting their own versions of events is disturbing to say the least.

Your problem is you read things as you want to read them, not as they are..

You don't know that the person was drunk. You don't know any of the circumstances regarding the incident.

Frankly nobody does except the people that were there.

You ever stop and wonder why I didn't comment on this thread? But have zero problems debating these things until the end of time in other threads?


Here's a fact.. You read a comment out of an article and based it in scientific terms as a "given." When in fact it is just a comment on the Internet.

Here's a fact.. You assigned guilt to someone without affording them the basic fundamental right of due process.. (You know that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?).

You are doing the same thing with the stats you are quoting. You are picking and choosing portions of stats and ignoring the portions that disagree with your stance. Like the larger glaring fact that inexperience outweighs alcohol by a gross margin in terms of the cause of accidents. Instead you will take a slice of the pie and talk about a slice of the slice.

You guys use words like petty.. And sad.. The only thing petty, sad and downright fucking shameful is the shock value and pulling of emotional heart strings using this little girls death to try and further agendas and prove points.

 

[aka619er]

You ever stop and wonder why I didn't comment on this thread? But have zero problems debating these things until the end of time in other threads?

I figured you were still trying to recover from last weekend. This has your name written all over it. Nothing negative meant by that.

 

[milkmoney]

about the license? Id go get one, if it makes one dumb fuck on havasu a bit smarter then sign me up. im NOT talking about my freedom and rights as a American either. I know its another form of tax and big brother. So what, we are already living that life. That ship has sailed in our lifetime. Just enjoy everyday, it ends as fast as the little girls did

My post was not directed towards you. Although your comment about " that ship has sailed". Is as about as dumb as other comments in this thread. It tells me you have given up and that's what they want you to do. I find it hard that you actually would do that , based on ur posts over the years.

[emoji202]

 

[riverroyal]

Your problem is you read things as you want to read them, not as they are..

You don't know that the person was drunk. You don't know any of the circumstances regarding the incident.

Frankly nobody does except the people that were there.

You ever stop and wonder why I didn't comment on this thread? But have zero problems debating these things until the end of time in other threads?


Here's a fact.. You read a comment out of an article and based it in scientific terms as a "given." When in fact it is just a comment on the Internet.

Here's a fact.. You assigned guilt to someone without affording them the basic fundamental right of due process.. (You know that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?).

You are doing the same thing with the stats you are quoting. You are picking and choosing portions of stats and ignoring the portions that disagree with your stance. Like the larger glaring fact that inexperience outweighs alcohol by a gross margin in terms of the cause of accidents. Instead you will take a slice of the pie and talk about a slice of the slice.

were on vacation or something.

 

[RiverDave]

I should have read the thread before making my post.. I could have just quoted some of the other common sense guys and saved myself some half asleep typing.

 

[riverroyal]

My post was not directed towards you. Although your comment about " that ship has sailed". Is as about as dumb as other comments in this thread. It tells me you have given up and that's what they want you to do. I find it hard that you actually would do that , based on ur posts over the years.

[emoji202]

I have not given up. Its more a 'pick your battles' type thing. Im more jaded on this topic I suppose. I fought for licensing PWC operators years ago. Because we saw the industry dying due to lawsuits. Fast forward to now, nothing has changed. Unfortunately the boating/PWC industry is all one. You cant separate the two. 20 years ago we tried.
For this type of tragedy it can be avoided, or partially avoided. Accident's will always happen. You cant ignore the fact that a huge number of boating deaths and accidents are from inexperience. We didn't need a static for that. You can buy a boat, but you cant buy common sense. Some need instruction, that's just how some humans are wired. You also cant separate those that need instruction and those who don't. Simply because those who need it don't have enough common sense to realize they actually do!

I really hate these type of threads, for some reason I get drawn in. Someone died then we all think we know the reason and whats right or wrong. Then its a debate, which hopefully has a positive outcome to very negative issue, loss of life. It never fails on here or Hot Boat or any public forum with key board warriors that people will start to defend their beliefs, feelings or rights. At the end of the day we all want to be safe and have our freedom to boat, ride or enjoy ourselves.

ship has sailed, meaning we are already taxed too much, told what to do too much, watched, scrutinized etc. You cant stop it, we already set ourselves up. This is as good as it gets, this day this week.

We also don't know the root cause of this accident, for all we know they were both excellent operators and it was as simple as a accident. They do happen

Disclaimer- I don't own any PWC's haven't in 16 years. I have rode on havasu in the last few years though. I stay as close to the shore as possible and always raise my hand or let the overtaking boat know I see him. But that's because I have experience on them as well as boats. The erratic behavior on these can be avoided, the operators just don't understand the risks

 

[milkmoney]

I have not given up. Its more a 'pick your battles' type thing. Im more jaded on this topic I suppose. I fought for licensing PWC operators years ago. Because we saw the industry dying due to lawsuits. Fast forward to now, nothing has changed. Unfortunately the boating/PWC industry is all one. You cant separate the two. 20 years ago we tried.
For this type of tragedy it can be avoided, or partially avoided. Accident's will always happen. You cant ignore the fact that a huge number of boating deaths and accidents are from inexperience. We didn't need a static for that. You can buy a boat, but you cant buy common sense. Some need instruction, that's just how some humans are wired. You also cant separate those that need instruction and those who don't. Simply because those who need it don't have enough common sense to realize they actually do!

I really hate these type of threads, for some reason I get drawn in. Someone died then we all think we know the reason and whats right or wrong. Then its a debate, which hopefully has a positive outcome to very negative issue, loss of life. It never fails on here or Hot Boat or any public forum with key board warriors that people will start to defend their beliefs, feelings or rights. At the end of the day we all want to be safe and have our freedom to boat, ride or enjoy ourselves.

ship has sailed, meaning we are already taxed too much, told what to do too much, watched, scrutinized etc. You cant stop it, we already set ourselves up. This is as good as it gets, this day this week.

We also don't know the root cause of this accident, for all we know they were both excellent operators and it was as simple as a accident. They do happen

Disclaimer- I don't own any PWC's haven't in 16 years. I have rode on havasu in the last few years though. I stay as close to the shore as possible and always raise my hand or let the overtaking boat know I see him. But that's because I have experience on them as well as boats. The erratic behavior on these can be avoided, the operators just don't understand the risks

Ok. I am about being responsible for actions and mind ur own fucking business unless it effects me

Which means if someone drives a pwc or a boat and is not effecting me , I jus don't give a fuck , that does not mean I don't care that people hurt or kill other people out of stupidity or drinking or no experience

What gets on my nerve is degrading pwc riders as a whole. ( yes I have owned them ). It's like saying it's ok to be a sober boat driver even if you don't know how to drive one.

I don't think getting a license is going to stop people from drinking and driving anything nor will it stop people from operating anything with little to no experience. I am for boater safety and education.

I am going to buy a M31 and the first thing I will do is go take tres driving school and have the manufacture show me some operating procedures on the water. Would also have outdrive1 ( why? Cause he is experience and my friend that I trust ) ride and drive with me my first few times on the water on my solo maiden voyage , not because I am s armed and have the money to buy anything , it's because my experience with a cat and Twins is minimal ,,,,

That is what I call boater education. [emoji202]

 

[On Cruise]

Ok. I am about being responsible for actions and mind ur own fucking business unless it effects me

Which means if someone drives a pwc or a boat and is not effecting me , I jus don't give a fuck , that does not mean I don't care that people hurt or kill other people out of stupidity or drinking or no experience

What gets on my nerve is degrading pwc riders as a whole. ( yes I have owned them ). It's like saying it's ok to be a sober boat driver even if you don't know how to drive one.

I don't think getting a license is going to stop people from drinking and driving anything nor will it stop people from operating anything with little to no experience. I am for boater safety and education.

I am going to buy a M31 and the first thing I will do is go take tres driving school and have the manufacture show me some operating procedures on the water. Would also have outdrive1 ( why? Cause he is experience and my friend that I trust ) ride and drive with me my first few times on the water on my solo maiden voyage , not because I am s armed and have the money to buy anything , it's because my experience with a cat and Twins is minimal ,,,,

That is what I call boater education. [emoji202]

The current threads,you have the posted on at least 6.:rolleyes

I guess that is your idea of minding your own fucking business:grumble:

Today is one of your off days,I guess as will be posting on every thread even though nothing about them.:thumbsdown

 

[Joker]

The current threads,you have the posted on at least 6.:rolleyes

I guess that is your idea of minding your own fucking business:grumble:

Today is one of your off days,I guess as will be posting on every thread even though nothing about them.:thumbsdown

Lol, it appears you should take off the cruise control and tap the brakes.[emoji1]

 

[DC-88]

The person driving the PWC was 42 years old. As for DC-88's answer, there has been no indication that the PWC was a rental.

I answered Tom's question about operator age law and painted a brief but accurate picture of what that place is like on a summer Saturday. I didn't see the accident and never said it involved a rental. The # of PWC riders in that area who have consumed zero alcoholic beverages on a hot Saturday would be fairly low as well from what I've seen. It's just not an environment I'd ever have put my own kids into .
PWC riders who have their shit together on the river are easy to pick out because they look back regularly , go with the traffic flow, remove themselves from it when they stop, and look back to judge traffic before they start. I still ride stand ups any time except mid day Sat. or big weekends and unless mine is dead in the water I'd say it falls into that .001% as far as a chance of getting hit which is safe enough for me -

 

[On Cruise]

Lol, it appears you should take off the cruise control and tap the brakes.[emoji1]

:hmm

 

[rivermobster]

The take away on this thread is that even though it IS legal to drink and drive in a boat, Because of the current litigious society we live it, it's not a very wise thing to do.

You could be minding your own business, and when someone crashes into you, you ARE gonna be arrested and charged. Now your gonna have to spend tons of money on scum sucking lawyers and shit, to try and get out of the mess. FUCK!!! No one wins but the lawyers.

Is this worth it to you?? That's your personal decision that only you can make.

Not drinking on the water is the safest bet. But who the fuck wants to hang out in the channel stone sober!!!!!!!!

Oh and don't forget kids, Parker is still closed. All the cool kids hang out in the channel. :cool



Oh and most importantly,

RIP little girl. You will be missed...

:cry:

 

[milkmoney]

The current threads,you have the posted on at least 6.:rolleyes

I guess that is your idea of minding your own fucking business:grumble:

Today is one of your off days,I guess as will be posting on every thread even though nothing about them.:thumbsdown

Thank you. [emoji106][emoji202]

 

[milkmoney]

Lol, it appears you should take off the cruise control and tap the brakes.[emoji1]

Johnny. Thanks but not worth it. We are here discussing opinions and some people can't respect that. It's fine [emoji106][emoji202][emoji41]

 

[Joker]

Johnny. Thanks but not worth it. We are here discussing opinions and some people can't respect that. It's fine [emoji106][emoji202][emoji41]

Did you get that lawn chair from wal mart?

 

[milkmoney]

Did you get that lawn chair from wal mart?

Yup. The cheapest one I could fine [emoji12][emoji202][emoji106]

 

[wishiknew]

Lol, it appears you should take off the cruise control and tap the brakes.[emoji1]

I think he should slam on the brakes before he gets run over by a milk truck

 

[milkmoney]

I think he should slam on the brakes before he gets run over by a milk truck

Lol. Good one. [emoji106][emoji202]

 

[BHC Vic]

Yup. The cheapest one I could fine [emoji12][emoji202][emoji106]

Find 😎

 

[milkmoney]

Find [emoji41]

God damn auto correct. And who cares. Fine find or ??? Lol [emoji106][emoji202]

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Really not a part of this debate directly but with all these statistics being thrown out in this thread (I haven't read the whole thing and certainly don't care to), I don't recall seeing any statistics regarding the ratio of accidents to total boaters on a major holiday weekend, month, season, year, etc...

Found this on the golakehavasu.com site.



2013...... 9 accidents on Lake Havasu. 4 deaths. Those 4 deaths.... tragic and their families will never be the same.

Now, take the emotion out of it for a minute and think about it like this.... How many boats are annually on Havasu? 100,000? 200,000? More (I couldn't find that stat while I was doing my limited research)? Now, how many people go boating on Havasu? I found several sources that put it over 2.5 million. So for the point of this post, let's use the figures of 150,000 boats annually and 2 million people. That means there is a .006% chance of being in a boating accident and a .0002% of dieing on Havasu.

Now, keep in mind, people and boat operators are HUMAN and humans make mistakes. You can NEVER completely eliminate mistakes.

Everybody is talking about what should be done to change this and that, what if the way it's being done now is good? Compare these 2013 statistics to some from the MTV and post-MTV years, definitely a large improvement.


Sorry, but I really feel you cannot eliminate risk, accidents, and possible early death from anything and our society has gotten so focused on preventing tragic early deaths that it has led us to over-litigate every single action someone can do.


Btw, had 2 beers out on my boat yesterday with my pregnant girlfriend and 2 year old daughter on board. I guess I'm an irresponsible selfish asshole too.