DC plane crash.

[t&y]

The irony about the backlash against DEI is that those who say they want to judge people solely based on merit now judge everyone on everything but merit.

They become willing participants of that exact thing they so proudly profess to hate. Assuming those who are not white, straight, Christian males are DEI hires and lack any merit.

If you oppose Robbery, and speak out against it, does that mean you are now participating and supporting it? That must be some of that tier 1 Super Ultra Conservative shit right there.

 

[530RL]

Someone on here or a pilot interviewed by Meygan Kelly I can't remember said military helicopters don't have black boxes. Was I hearing thing's???

They will have both a data and voice recorder as well as a HUMS recorder for maintenance.

 

[t&y]

I just keep thinking the real DEI issue is that the Air Traffic Control tower was understaffed. Did that contribute to the accident? Were qualified people not hired because a quota was trying to be met? Were qualified people not hired because of the color of their skin?

This issue has been reported in the news as of late.

 

[regor]

Have they ruled out suicidal tendencies? Maybe she had worse TDS than even 5 thirty and decided to end it.

You're not suggesting a loud and proud dyke that worked in the Biden Administration would purposely do something like that, especially coming on the heels of a complete ass whooping and a total rejection of her mentally ill beliefs now, are you?

 

[t&y]

According to the NTSB the collision occurred at 200 feet, so the helo was not above the deck limit so the black box says. Yet he still explained it with conflict. And they still don't have the black box from the helo, yet they said that it could have severe water damage...what gives?

200 feet on a short final for an inbound airplane wouldn't surprise me really. And I don't think that was the issue. I believe the helo was off it's intended path which made that 200 ft (or whatever it was) a direct conflict with the approach into the airport. Had they been on the east side the river, 200 ft elevation sounds like it would not have been an issue as it would have been safely under the approach flight path.

 

[4Waters]

No I completely agree, from everything we know at this point, the helicopter is at fault. My point is that her gender, sexuality, or extracurricular career choices were not the causal factor.


Let’s not confuse PIC (Pilot in command) with PAC (Pilot at controls).

PIC is the one who is in charge of the flight and signs for the aircraft. They are ultimately responsible for the conduct of the entire flight. They could be sitting in either seat and be at the controls or not at the controls, it doesn’t matter.

Rank has no place in the cockpit, qualification does. If she was being evaluated, the the instructor is the PIC. As an O3, I flew with plenty of O5s and O6s where I was the PIC because I held the higher qualification.

I would say the plane is not at fault, it sounds like ATC was understaffed and the helicopter missed an order

 

[regor]

Well, there is good news on the DEI front, besides the fact that President Trump is wiping it off the face of the USA map.

The Godfather of it can't get his library built!!!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1886051591112802630

 

[Andy B.]

Well, there is good news on the DEI front, besides the fact that President Trump is wiping it off the face of the USA map.

The Godfather of it can't get his library built!!!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1886051591112802630

Karma is a bitch!!!

 

[ChumpChange]

Well, there is good news on the DEI front, besides the fact that President Trump is wiping it off the face of the USA map.

The Godfather of it can't get his library built!!!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1886051591112802630

Building codes are racist it appears.

 

[MPHSystems]

Ok pilots. Where does PIC begin and end.

Even if air traffic control had gone silent the chopper crew was flying to high and knew there flying through a flight path of a commercial air port.
So unless the airtraffic controllers told them to fly to high into a plane or have bad info I don't see them as responsible.
Could they have done a better job helping preventing the cray maybe but they didn't fly a helicopter to high in the wrong place . That on the pilot and crew and who ever had them fly the exercise if mistakes were made in the info. IMO

 

[brianwhiteboy]

This begs the question….who is RDP’s resident DEI Officer? Asking for a friend.

 

[86403]

Screen shot of controllers display. PAT25 at 200' and a few seconds later PAT25 at 300'. Red CA is Collision Alert. Despite PAT25 calling traffic in sight and requesting visual separation, it does not relinquish the ATC controllers responsibility to provide separation for the IFR RJ. The Blackhawk and RJ should've never been allowed to get that close. That being said, based on the ATC recordings, the controllers task loading was unreasonably high.

 

[MPHSystems]

First woman to hit a commercial airliner with a military helicopter. If she is LGBBQ, then this makes it even more historic!

Can’t wait to read the posthumous Silver Star citation as I’m sure it’s going to be a whopper…

Smashed right through that glass ceiling!

 

[TimeBandit]

Nobody will ever know "who had the stick".

Ever.

ATC? that's another issue.

I've had Burbank tower "forget about me" as I was going thru their airspace. Mistakes happen.

 

[TonyFanelli]

200 feet on a short final for an inbound airplane wouldn't surprise me really. And I don't think that was the issue. I believe the helo was off it's intended path which made that 200 ft (or whatever it was) a direct conflict with the approach into the airport. Had they been on the east side the river, 200 ft elevation sounds like it would not have been an issue as it would have been safely under the approach flight path.

Yea my bad, the guy said the jet was at 300+/- 25ft, but right after that he said the collision occurred at 200 ft...I dunno

 

[t&y]

Nobody will ever know "who had the stick".

Ever.

ATC? that's another issue.

I've had Burbank tower "forget about me" as I was going thru their airspace. Mistakes happen.

Lol.. coming back from Camarillo and ATC completely ignored me while mentioning my aircraft, elevation, and heading multiple times while they directed traffic all around me over Van Nuys Point Magu released me and had me switch. I attempted to check in a couple times then switched over to departure to confirm the radio was working. That ATC confirmed, giggled, and just said "yeah, he's kinda busy, just maintain heading and altitude and switch back." All that diversion traffic continued and the only transmission from him to me was when he released my frequency over El Monte. I'm still curious what that was all about, but I did get to see some large commercial jets up close as they flew over me.

 

[regor]

This begs the question….who is RDP’s resident DEI Officer? Asking for a friend.

 

[RVR SWPR]

Any Opinions regarding turbulence in the entire area of that airport? According to info every 40 seconds jet aircraft depart that airport.

 

[530RL]

Nobody will ever know "who had the stick".

Ever.

ATC? that's another issue.

I've had Burbank tower "forget about me" as I was going thru their airspace. Mistakes happen.

The voice recorder will tell the investigators who was sitting where.

The control inputs from each station that are recorded should then help identify who made inputs and when.

 

[ToMorrow44]

Screen shot of controllers display. PAT25 at 200' and a few seconds later PAT25 at 300'. Red CA is Collision Alert. Despite PAT25 calling traffic in sight and requesting visual separation, it does not relinquish the ATC controllers responsibility to provide separation for the IFR RJ. The Blackhawk and RJ should've never been allowed to get that close. That being said, based on the ATC recordings, the controllers task loading was unreasonably high. View attachment 1475200 View attachment 1475201

One thing to remember is the AA plane was performing a circle to land procedure (at request of ATC) which is not IFR, it’s a visual maneuver. If an aircraft is operating IFR, there’s a 3nm bubble that exists around them that can’t be penetrated.

Often times ATC will ask the planes to confirm when visual so they can sequence the traffic a little closer and faster.

Still a lot to learn in this case, especially from the helo black box. I’d like to hear the conversation going on (not sure if we’ll be able to though).

 

[530RL]

One thing to remember is the AA plane was performing a circle to land procedure (at request of ATC) which is not IFR, it’s a visual maneuver. If an aircraft is operating IFR, there’s a 3nm bubble that exists around them that can’t be penetrated.

Often times ATC will ask the planes to confirm when visual so they can sequence the traffic a little closer and faster.

Still a lot to learn in this case, especially from the helo black box. I’d like to hear the conversation going on (not sure if we’ll be able to though).

Even under VFR one would assume he would choose a 3 degree glide path conforming with the PAPI which would according to the chart prevent a collision if everyone was on path?

As you and everyone has stated, more data is needed.

 

[MPHSystems]

The voice recorder will tell the investigators who was sitting where.

The control inputs from each station that are recorded should then help identify who made inputs and when.

I read the Blackhawks don't have a black box. Is that true?

 

[530RL]

I read the Blackhawks don't have a black box. Is that true?

They have both voice and data recorders as well as a HUMS recorder.

 

[86403]

One thing to remember is the AA plane was performing a circle to land procedure (at request of ATC) which is not IFR, it’s a visual maneuver. If an aircraft is operating IFR, there’s a 3nm bubble that exists around them that can’t be penetrated.

Often times ATC will ask the planes to confirm when visual so they can sequence the traffic a little closer and faster.

Still a lot to learn in this case, especially from the helo black box. I’d like to hear the conversation going on (not sure if we’ll be able to though

The RJ was cleared the MT VERNON Visual Rwy 1 a charted visual flight procedure (CVFP). When the RJ accepted the runway change to Rwy 33 they were still cleared a visual approach. AIM 5-4-23 "Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions"......unless the pilot has the preceding aircraft in sight, "ATC retains both separation and wake vortex separation responsibility." If the RJ had called the preceding aircraft in sight, ATC would relinquish responsibility for providing separation from that aircraft.

 

[kurtis500]

I heard the NTSB say the last known high resolution data point of the AA flight was at 325ft -/+ 20 feet. That puts the helicopter 100ft above its designated ceiling in that corridor. Radar shows it at 003 at the last second too. Not sure why they went up, a little spacial disorientation in a helicopter with all the city lights around?? not sure how that works

If she is a qualified pilot how might DEI/affirmative action comes into play. The answers involved the special privileges and exemptions that come with it. 500 hrs in 5+ years is not a lot, and it looks like she was removed from that duty for a period of time for optics. She was taken off flight duty to become a show piece at the White House. “Hey all you dignitaries and VIPs, look at how progressive we are with our female LGBQT combat helicopter pilot. Aren’t we so awesome?” But by doing that, you actually take her out of the pilot’s seat and reduce her readiness, the opposite of the virtue you are attempting to signal.

Regardless, it seems like an accident but with huge consequences.. :/

 

[Activated]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">FAA SUED FOR DENYING 1,000 AIR TRAFFIC JOBS TO MEET DIVERSITY QUOTAS<br><br>A lawsuit alleges the FAA rejected 1,000 qualified applicants to hit diversity hiring targets, raising safety concerns after deadly air disasters.<br><br>Lead plaintiff Andrew Brigida, who scored 100% on his FAA… <a href="https://t.co/jG3NSEjFBY">pic.twitter.com/jG3NSEjFBY</a></p>&mdash; Mario Nawfal (@MarioNawfal) <a href="

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1886090955973087259

">February 2, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Hotrod Realtor]

I'm disappointed that two pilots flying the helo missed the altitude deviation. It's a team effort to ensure the flight is done correctly. One pilot flying and one pilot monitoring. Adding to my disbelief is, as I understand it, there was a third instructor pilot. I'm not a military pilot, but in my world that instructor pilot had no duties other than to evaluate the pilots flying. The instructor pilot had no duties, so his situational awareness should have been wide open. He heard the ATC calls about traffic just as the other pilots heard it.

Additionally, having less than 500 hours in an aircraft over a 5 year period is really, really low time. Most professional pilots fly 500 hours in a year or two at the most. For example, I've flown 340 in the last 12 months and I don't fly that much. I fly fixed wing, not helicopters so others might chime in on average helo hours.

Last thing that I will say in this post. ATC is understaffed. There are many times that I need to talk to ATC but can not. They are handling multiple frequencies, doing a great job, but they are so busy you can't get a radio message to them. When you try to contact them you are transmitting at the same time other pilots are keying their mics and they can't hear or understand.

 

[500bbc]

This begs the question….who is RDP’s resident DEI Officer? Asking for a friend.

RACIST!!!

 

[RVR SWPR]

I'm disappointed that two pilots flying the helo missed the altitude deviation. It's a team effort to ensure the flight is done correctly. One pilot flying and one pilot monitoring. Adding to my disbelief is, as I understand it, there was a third instructor pilot. I'm not a military pilot, but in my world that instructor pilot had no duties other than to evaluate the pilots flying. The instructor pilot had no duties, so his situational awareness should have been wide open. He heard the ATC calls about traffic just as the other pilots heard it.

Additionally, having less than 500 hours in an aircraft over a 5 year period is really, really low time. Most professional pilots fly 500 hours in a year or two at the most. For example, I've flown 340 in the last 12 months and I don't fly that much. I fly fixed wing, not helicopters so others might chime in on average helo hours.

Last thing that I will say in this post. ATC is understaffed. There are many times that I need to talk to ATC but can not. They are handling multiple frequencies, doing a great job, but they are so busy you can't get a radio message to them. When you try to contact them you are transmitting at the same time other pilots are keying their mics and they can't hear or understand.

Welcome RDP

 

[rrrr]

No I completely agree, from everything we know at this point, the helicopter is at fault. My point is that her gender, sexuality, or extracurricular career choices were not the causal factor.


Let’s not confuse PIC (Pilot in command) with PAC (Pilot at controls).

PIC is the one who is in charge of the flight and signs for the aircraft. They are ultimately responsible for the conduct of the entire flight. They could be sitting in either seat and be at the controls or not at the controls, it doesn’t matter.

Rank has no place in the cockpit, qualification does. If she was being evaluated, the the instructor is the PIC. As an O3, I flew with plenty of O5s and O6s where I was the PIC because I held the higher qualification.

I should have said PF, as the IP would indeed have been PIC. I pointed out rank because another poster said the IP outranked the trainee, which was incorrect.

 

[ToMorrow44]

I'm disappointed that two pilots flying the helo missed the altitude deviation. It's a team effort to ensure the flight is done correctly. One pilot flying and one pilot monitoring. Adding to my disbelief is, as I understand it, there was a third instructor pilot. I'm not a military pilot, but in my world that instructor pilot had no duties other than to evaluate the pilots flying. The instructor pilot had no duties, so his situational awareness should have been wide open. He heard the ATC calls about traffic just as the other pilots heard it.

Additionally, having less than 500 hours in an aircraft over a 5 year period is really, really low time. Most professional pilots fly 500 hours in a year or two at the most. For example, I've flown 340 in the last 12 months and I don't fly that much. I fly fixed wing, not helicopters so others might chime in on average helo hours.

Last thing that I will say in this post. ATC is understaffed. There are many times that I need to talk to ATC but can not. They are handling multiple frequencies, doing a great job, but they are so busy you can't get a radio message to them. When you try to contact them you are transmitting at the same time other pilots are keying their mics and they can't hear or understand.

The 3rd crew member was a crew chief, not a pilot.

Helo pilots don’t build flight time like a fixed wing, but it’s more “quality” flight time. What I mean by that, my fixed wing friends always use to joke that they’re actually flying the plane for ~60 seconds of any given flight, takeoff and landing. Otherwise it’s on a form of autopilot. Versus helos, we’re flying the whole time with very little automation. In the CG, to become an aircraft commander, fixed wing pilots had to have 1000hrs vs helos at 750hrs.

I know one year I flew ~350 hours, and I was one of the top helo pilots in the CG that year. My DOD friends weren’t that lucky, most were flying 8-10 hours a month and were shocked to hear I was flying 20-25 consistently.

I say all that to say, 500 hours is a decent amount of experience in a helicopter. I was flying a helicopter single pilot at 500 hours.

 

[PlanB]

Night vision goggles have limited peripheral view. The forward vision area covered by the goggles is only about 40 degrees. That might be a factor.

I can't imagine them using NVG's in a metro area with the lights of the city. When we were using NVG's near towns with lights we would have issues with the goggles washing out. We were using PVS-5's when I was flying so maybe the new NVG's don't have the same issues. You are spot on about lack of peripheral vision. We used scanning techniques while using NVG's to try and overcome this.

 

[4Waters]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">FAA SUED FOR DENYING 1,000 AIR TRAFFIC JOBS TO MEET DIVERSITY QUOTAS<br><br>A lawsuit alleges the FAA rejected 1,000 qualified applicants to hit diversity hiring targets, raising safety concerns after deadly air disasters.<br><br>Lead plaintiff Andrew Brigida, who scored 100% on his FAA… <a href="https://t.co/jG3NSEjFBY">pic.twitter.com/jG3NSEjFBY</a></p>&mdash; Mario Nawfal (@MarioNawfal) <a href="

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1886090955973087259

">February 2, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

A short staffed tower and this lawsuit, sounds like a DEI problem

 

[rrrr]

I can't imagine them using NVG's in a metro area with the lights of the city. When we were using NVG's near towns with lights we would have issues with the goggles washing out. We were using PVS-5's when I was flying so maybe the new NVG's don't have the same issues. You are spot on about lack of peripheral vision. We used scanning techniques while using NVG's to try and overcome this.

I've heard they were using the newer white phosphor NVGs.

It seems like a really poor idea to be on the goggles in that environment. They were supposed to find AA 5342 through the urban washout, plus the lights from other aircraft in the stepdown parade coming up the river.

 

[Dog]

Regardless, it seems like a mistake but with huge consequences.. :/

fixed it for you

 

[ToMorrow44]

I've heard they were using the newer white phosphor NVGs.

It seems like a really poor idea to be on the goggles in that environment. They were supposed to find AA 5342 through the urban washout, plus the lights from other aircraft in the stepdown parade coming up the river.

White phosphor NVGs are awesome. It’s like a high def black and white TV. But yeah, I always flipped them up if flying around city lights. You can see better without them.

 

[BoatCop]

This whole thing is like a giant acid flashback for me. In Jan, 1982 when the Air Florida plane crashed in DC, I was Engineering Officer assigned to the USCGC Cleat, a 65' Harbor Tug in Gloucester City, NJ (Philadelphia). A good friend was the Officer-In-Charge of the USCGC Capstan at the time, a sister 65' Tug out of DC. When the crash happened, my crew was recalled and put on immediate standby. Although we never got dispatched to DC, we were ready to go. The below pics show the Capstan involved in the recovery on the Potomac.

Even though we didn't get sent, we were swamped with media from Philly stations, as we were a similar vessel to what was being highlighted in DC. They wanted to know what kind of preparations or plan we had, in case of a similar occurrence at PHL, as it has the approach and depart over the Delaware River, similar to DC. Although we didn't have a specific set OPLAN for such an evolution, we were all experienced enough to know what to do when/if it happened. However, less than 2 week later, we had a plan, not just for us, but for all Coast Guard, State, Local and Federal Agencies in the region.

Every one of these things hurt. BAD! The demons love it when it's time for them to come out of hiding.