Andddd they shut off my power

[Xring01]

Nope. But we all seem to know a rat when we smell one in every other scenario.. You've got siblings of elected officials on the boards of these companies, These companies lobby for their own regulation or self regulation to control costs, and are slapped on the wrist anytime they do anything wrong. No one is held accountable for anything.

If we replaced So Cal Gas and Jerry Brown with Joe Biden and Burisma, what would you all be saying?

Once again, there is blame up and down the stack across state and public utility leadership. You can't tell me any of these companies are incentivised to solve problems and make anything better. Yes the power companies are hamstrung on what they can do by the state, and yes the state props them up and makes sure they are monopolies.

It is amazing that these problems only seem to exist in CA. it is a complex problem, yes, but to say this is the best that it can be is asinine.

Well, its not just Ca, alot of the democratic run States, that follow CA regulations have the same problems.
Take a guess at Texas grid... they do the opposite of Ca, and have one of the best grids on the planet.

Literally, when Texas see's Ca doing something new... They sit back for 5 years, take all the "Lessons Learned" on that, and do it 10x better and get it right the first time. Ca is the proving grounds for most of the US Utilities FOR WHAT NOT TO DO. I am not joking about that. They seriously laugh at the decisions made here.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Well, its not just Ca, alot of the democratic run States, that follow CA regulations have the same problems.
Take a guess at Texas grid... they do the opposite of Ca, and have one of the best grids on the planet.

Literally, when Texas see's Ca doing something new... They sit back for 5 years, take all the "Lessons Learned" on that, and do it 10x better and get it right the first time. Ca is the proving grounds for most of the US Utilities FOR WHAT NOT TO DO. I am not joking about that. They seriously laugh at the decisions made here.

All I'm asking for is to objectively look at the current system. I don't see how anyone could disagree that the current relationship between state government and the public utilities contains the following:

1. Little accountability
2. Lots of waste
3. Collusion
4. Could be a much better service for the ratepayer

That is it. I am not saying that anyone that works for a utility is a bad person, or is doing a bad job - aside from the c suite and the board of these utilities, as well as state government.

 

[Rajobigguy]

@LargeOrangeFont, @4Waters...

Do either of you have utility experience in CA in the course of your careers on a constant basis?

I dont know about the two that you asked but I have over 25 yrs. in the industry and while I agree that there are many problems, I doubt that most of the answers that have been proposed here have any real validity (well except of course mine).

 

[Wizard29]

Nope. But we all seem to know a rat when we smell one in every other scenario.. You've got siblings of elected officials on the boards of these companies, These companies lobby for their own regulation or self regulation to control costs, and are slapped on the wrist anytime they do anything wrong. No one is held accountable for anything.

If we replaced So Cal Gas and Jerry Brown with Joe Biden and Burisma, what would you all be saying?

Once again, there is blame up and down the stack across state and public utility leadership. You can't tell me any of these companies are incentivised to solve problems and make anything better. Yes the power companies are hamstrung on what they can do by the state, and yes the state props them up and makes sure they are monopolies.

It is amazing that these problems only seem to exist in CA. it is a complex problem, yes, but to say this is the best that it can be is asinine.

Okay, so the answer for both of you is no utility experience.

That being established, I say that without having done any significant research (and I do mean significant) to supplement the lack of industry knowledge, you might just be out of your depth to make the statements you're making. I can also tell by some of the statements that have been made, no significant research has been done.

Yes, the whole deal is a shit sandwich. The fact of the matter though is what we are seeing is the result of stupid liberal politicians and their stupid decisions. I can tell you firsthand that the state regulations force utilities to take certain courses of action that no sane company ever would. I get the feeling that @Xring01, @Brobee, @bldrinker and some others know exactly what I mean by that.

We could have a fantastic and modern infrastructure in place if it were not for the prohibitive costs/restrictions CA regulations put on accomplishing that. As Xring said, other utilities in other areas laugh at what goes on in CA.

It's real easy to blame the utilities right off because that seems like the most obvious cause. I don't blame people for doing that as a knee jerk reaction. But arguing with people who work in the industry and know the game when they point out what's really happening is asinine.

Dig deeper. Live it. Then you may see things differently.

 

[Xring01]

There might be one state with a worse grid that Ca... especially when you consider what they charge there customers..
Thats Hawaii... owe man... they have serious problems.

Chicago has some serious problems, but started investing heavily after a major black out, in the middle of summer, resulted in many deaths of elderly people, because breathing machines couldnt work, and no AC. Its taken them over 10 year of investing heavily to start tilting the scale in the other direction.

Louisiana... wow... after hurricanes and floods... never winning battle.

FL... its practically brand new every 5 years... lol...

People didnt fully understand the true costs of renewable 15-20 years ago. Politicians sold them its a better idea, thats its green, no evil carbon, no smog etc etc etc. But no one put 2 + 2 together have they.... Green 15-20 years ago, results in 200% rate increase realized today... Wow, how good of an idea was it then?

How much greener can you afford to go?

The new buzz word is all about Energy Storage, gonna solve all your problems... OMG this cracks me up, on so many levels...
Dont get me wrong, there is a place for small scale energy storage. It can be cost effective. But thinking that Large Scale can replace a Power Plant. Sorry, that math just doesnt add up...

Nat Gas Power Plant, can produce power 24x7x 360 days a year... lets say 5 days of maintenance per year...

Energy Storage, well it discharges based on the load, which is typically designed for 12 hours... then it has to charge for 12 hours. So what happens after the power plants that are 30 years old and not maintained, are not running to charge the battery???? Or the transmission line is down??? How does the battery charge...??? Whats the maintenance schedule again??? Or the Total Ownership Cost... OHHH Ca Politicians just dont give a SHIT. The stupid citizens/voters, want to be green at any price. So lets give them all they want... They may not have electricity, but they will sleep better at night, knowing they reduced there carbon footprint. Especially when there no Power Plant in my back yard...

FUCK I AM CRACKING MYSELF UP NOW... IS IT TIME FOR BOURBON YET.. . I NEED ONE...

 

[mash on it]

How do they keep the power on when they keep shutting down plants?

Mohave generating station, Laughlin (SCE) 2005.
Navajo generating plant, Page (LADWP 21%) 2019.
San Onofre Nuke plant, (SCE) 2013.

These are just the ones I know of.

Dan'l

 

[Taboma]

FUCK I AM CRACKING MYSELF UP NOW... IS IT TIME FOR BOURBON YET.. . I NEED ONE...

" FL... its practically brand new every 5 years... lol... " ---- So FL has the highest utility rates in the nation ? Or awesome insurance Who's paying for this ??

For the record I appreciate your posts on this subject. No hate here.

So sue the utilities, how dare you, enjoy the blackouts --- Yes, I saw that coming, just as I explained to my neighbors 12 years ago, intent on suing SDG&E after our fire, who'd end up eventually footing the bill.

With the Chicago case in mind and based on what you've written, what I see is a massive power struggle between the goliaths of the utilities vs the politicians.
Both the victim and leverage, is the roll of the customer. With sufficient pain and inconvenience, the customer base will revolt and force change.
Essentially the Chicago plan, enough folks die, shit happens.
The two giant monopoly IOU's in CA with over 5 million customers each, PG&E and SCE, don't compete, leaving the customers with one possible remedy, force the politicians to bend a knee.

If there's another possible solution that doesn't involve using the customers as leverage by forced suffering, I apologize for not picking up on it.

Again, Thanks.

 

[Xring01]

How do they keep the power on when they keep shutting down plants?

Mohave generating station, Laughlin (SCE) 2005.
Navajo generating plant, Page (LADWP 21%) 2019.
San Onofre Nuke plant, (SCE) 2013.

These are just the ones I know of.

Dan'l

Theres alot more than that, and more coming, because Ca now has regulations that prevent Power Plants from using Ocean Water, as cooling water to the power plant. Yes I am serious. Several plants that will be shut down due to this regulation, unless they can get cooling water at an affordable price. Yep this is Ca, water is not cheap.

There is a very very long answer to your question of where does the power come from. its not that simple... to get the point across in the least amount of typing.. We are going to talk about what happens after dark when the Wind/Solar in CA is producing ZERO....

They ship the majority power from the surrounding states for the most part. But thats not a good idea, if you truly understand how a Huge Grid operates.

After a major outage, lets say 3 states go dark, how do you re energize that grid. You cant just close the breakers to the energized power plants, and expect everything to just power back up. NOPE NOPE NOPE.... (A Key thing on this - Renewables do not provide any Inertia, they actually make the problem worse).

Remember energy only flows, when it sees, a path to ground... If that path is 800 miles away... you have to have "Inertia" to re energize long transmission lines. This goes way way way over my pay grade.... PhD Electrical Engineering/Protection/Generation type of minds fully understand these topics. But Large Power Plants, give a long transmission line that Inertia to re energize.

So in a few years, when Ca, shuts down a few more Nat Gas Plants, and we have a major outage, we may not be able to get the lights turned back on... YEP Thats a fact jack.

The key aspect of San Onofre, was a huge Nuke Plant, that created that Inertia, when we had to restart the grid. SCE/SDGE and other other owners of San Onofre at the time understand Inertia and Grid Reliability. They fought tooth and nail to be allowed to repower it, with 2000MW of Nat Gas Power Plant. Because it gives SoCal the key thing that it needs in black out restarts... But the CPUC says ohhh helll no... thats just stupid silly engineers. Lets use Synchronous Condensers that dont put out any carbon, or heat up the ocean, cause thats please's the voters...

Take a wild guess on how that new technology is working out in place of a Nuke Power Plant.... I can introduce you to engineer responsible for it.. You would love to get him drunk one night... When the truth comes out... WOW.

 

[SKIDMARC]

I just don't understand how we pay all this money to SCE and then when it gets windy or hot they have to shut the power off? I mean my family lives in AZ and when it gets to 115 for 4 months they don't lose power? When a dust storm comes they don't shut the power of? Bunch of BS SCE is. And then when you get solar, it takes them 7 months and a complaint to the public utilities commission to update your account.

Fucking BS

 

[Rajobigguy]

There might be one state with a worse grid that Ca... especially when you consider what they charge there customers..
Thats Hawaii... owe man... they have serious problems.

Chicago has some serious problems, but started investing heavily after a major black out, in the middle of summer, resulted in many deaths of elderly people, because breathing machines couldnt work, and no AC. Its taken them over 10 year of investing heavily to start tilting the scale in the other direction.

Louisiana... wow... after hurricanes and floods... never winning battle.

FL... its practically brand new every 5 years... lol...

People didnt fully understand the true costs of renewable 15-20 years ago. Politicians sold them its a better idea, thats its green, no evil carbon, no smog etc etc etc. But no one put 2 + 2 together have they.... Green 15-20 years ago, results in 200% rate increase realized today... Wow, how good of an idea was it then?

How much greener can you afford to go?

The new buzz word is all about Energy Storage, gonna solve all your problems... OMG this cracks me up, on so many levels...
Dont get me wrong, there is a place for small scale energy storage. It can be cost effective. But thinking that Large Scale can replace a Power Plant. Sorry, that math just doesnt add up...

Nat Gas Power Plant, can produce power 24x7x 360 days a year... lets say 5 days of maintenance per year...

Energy Storage, well it discharges based on the load, which is typically designed for 12 hours... then it has to charge for 12 hours. So what happens after the power plants that are 30 years old and not maintained, are not running to charge the battery???? Or the transmission line is down??? How does the battery charge...??? Whats the maintenance schedule again??? Or the Total Ownership Cost... OHHH Ca Politicians just dont give a SHIT. The stupid citizens/voters, want to be green at any price. So lets give them all they want... They may not have electricity, but they will sleep better at night, knowing they reduced there carbon footprint. Especially when there no Power Plant in my back yard...

FUCK I AM CRACKING MYSELF UP NOW... IS IT TIME FOR BOURBON YET.. . I NEED ONE...

You were doing pretty good until you got the part about a nat gas plant requiring 5 days of maintenance a year.

 

[Xring01]

" FL... its practically brand new every 5 years... lol... " ---- So FL has the highest utility rates in the nation ? Or awesome insurance Who's paying for this ??

For the record I appreciate your posts on this subject. No hate here.

So sue the utilities, how dare you, enjoy the blackouts --- Yes, I saw that coming, just as I explained to my neighbors 12 years ago, intent on suing SDG&E after our fire, who'd end up eventually footing the bill.

With the Chicago case in mind and based on what you've written, what I see is a massive power struggle between the goliaths of the utilities vs the politicians.
Both the victim and leverage, is the roll of the customer. With sufficient pain and inconvenience, the customer base will revolt and force change.
Essentially the Chicago plan, enough folks die, shit happens.
The two giant monopoly IOU's in CA with over 5 million customers each, PG&E and SCE, don't compete, leaving the customers with one possible remedy, force the politicians to bend a knee.

If there's another possible solution that doesn't involve using the customers as leverage by forced suffering, I apologize for not picking up on it.

Again, Thanks.

Here is what I can tell you.
When a Politician tell you they are gonna fix health care... what happened? Price go up/down, and how about the level of care?
When a Politician tells you they are gonna fix the grid... what happened?

I am not blaming everything on Politicians...
But in the Utility's case, the IOU's had a great track record, prior to Grey Davis and Democratic Governors changing the rules/regulations. They more they changed it, the rates went up, reliability went down. But there has to be some oversight, I know. But you cant afford to have two utilitys feeding the same geographical area. Because that means 2X the Transmission Lines, 2x the Distribution Lines, 2x everything, If a company is spending 2 x, with 50% of the customers, then how is that profitable. Its not, and will never happen, unless the US Government siezes all the Transmission & Distribution Assets of those Utility's. I dont think that will ever happen.

So, there will most likely be only one utility in any one area, based on the cost of being a Utility. So if you not happy with your utility, then you better start getting your elected officials updated on what the problems are actually are. Because as I have stated many times.. LEGISLATION AND REGULATIONS HAVE TO CHANGE...

Or just go off the grid... It can be done, but its not cheap, unless you truly change your lifestyle and conserve energy.

 

[Xring01]

You were doing pretty good until you got the part about a nat gas plant requiring 5 days of maintenance a year.

OK OK OK,,, talking about newer ones, not the 30-40 year old pieces of shit on the west coast... got me there.

 

[Xring01]

I just don't understand how we pay all this money to SCE and then when it gets windy or hot they have to shut the power off? I mean my family lives in AZ and when it gets to 115 for 4 months they don't lose power? When a dust storm comes they don't shut the power of? Bunch of BS SCE is. And then when you get solar, it takes them 7 months and a complaint to the public utilities commission to update your account.

Fucking BS

How many times has APS or SRP been sued for causing a wildfire?
PG&E will probably be out $50 Billion minimum based on the Paradise fire... thats one fire!

Hell SCE got sued for starting a wildfire, that started near a de energized transmission line. Get this... the line had been out of service for 18 months, but they didnt have time or resources to take the structures/wires down...

GOT SUED ANYWAY.... when they couldnt have started the fire due to an energized line... NOPE NOPE NOPE...

 

[Dirtbag]

I just don't understand how we pay all this money to SCE and then when it gets windy or hot they have to shut the power off? I mean my family lives in AZ and when it gets to 115 for 4 months they don't lose power? When a dust storm comes they don't shut the power of? Bunch of BS SCE is. And then when you get solar, it takes them 7 months and a complaint to the public utilities commission to update your account.

Fucking BS

when you sue the utility company feeding you because power lines start fires this is what happens. Maybe we should put the forest service to work and give edison some flexibility otherwise our prices will continue to go higher and we will be out of power more.

 

[4Waters]

How many times has APS or SRP been sued for causing a wildfire?
PG&E will probably be out $50Billion based on the Paradise fire... thats one fire!

How many fires does their equipment start?

when you sue the utility company feeding you because power lines start fires this is what happens. Maybe we should put the forest service to work and give edison some flexibility otherwise our prices will continue to go higher and we will be out of power more.

Judges don't have to hear the case, they can say shit happens, deal with it, but no not here in liberalville, we'll allow you to sue everyone for anything.

 

[Mr. C]

Generate your own power:
View attachment 948506


View attachment 948507
Its astoundingly quiet and powerful. Neighbors can’t hear it and neither can we.

When the neighborhood is dark from the blackout you open the drapes and turn on the big screen and house lights and show off to the neighbors.

TPC, I'm late to the party, but what roughly was the cost to install the set up to run the whole house like you have it.
Mainly interested because the MIL is on oxygen. but having power for other things is a definite plus.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

when you sue the utility company feeding you because power lines start fires this is what happens. Maybe we should put the forest service to work and give edison some flexibility otherwise our prices will continue to go higher and we will be out of power more.

And make them responsible for maintaining the infrastructure. Everyone keeps glossing over that there are *usually* complaints about faulty equipment days before a fire starts in the area.

 

[Taboma]

Here is what I can tell you.
When a Politician tell you they are gonna fix health care... what happened? Price go up/down, and how about the level of care?
When a Politician tells you they are gonna fix the grid... what happened?

I am not blaming everything on Politicians...
But in the Utility's case, the IOU's had a great track record, prior to Grey Davis and Democratic Governors changing the rules/regulations. They more they changed it, the rates went up, reliability went down. But there has to be some oversight, I know. But you cant afford to have two utilitys feeding the same geographical area. Because that means 2X the Transmission Lines, 2x the Distribution Lines, 2x everything, If a company is spending 2 x, with 50% of the customers, then how is that profitable. Its not, and will never happen, unless the US Government siezes all the Transmission & Distribution Assets of those Utility's. I dont think that will ever happen.

So, there will most likely be only one utility in any one area, based on the cost of being a Utility. So if you not happy with your utility, then you better start getting your elected officials updated on what the problems are actually are. Because as I have stated many times.. LEGISLATION AND REGULATIONS HAVE TO CHANGE...

Or just go off the grid... It can be done, but its not cheap, unless you truly change your lifestyle and conserve energy.

Off the grid --- Nope, but for the record, we haven't paid SDG&E for electricity in ten years. Of course we paid for that solar independence, but you pay either way and with an 100% electric home and all the initial incentives, our system paid for itself about year 3. Besides, I knew a guy in the business.

After 50 years of electrical contracting and replacing primary distribution and substations on various Navy bases, I understand a little. I'm certainly not suggesting multiple company owned distribution grids. As a matter of fact, I'm not suggesting anything other than what I stated as being obvious.

Although one option might be, a separation of production and distribution. Not sure it would help, but WTF might and the public gets the pleasure of burying a knife in somebody.

The customer when they have suffered enough will leverage change. We know that and your bosses know that and the fact they know that, I find seriously troublesome.

The only card customers have to play is to complain loudly and leverage with our votes.
I'm sure you're not suggesting that the average customer base has the ability to provide direction to politicians regarding utility policy making ?? Most can barely diagnose a defective light bulb.
So in that regard, the general public are like babies, all we can do is scream and keep screaming, what other choices are there ?? We scream at you, we scream at the politicians, each has a story and each is pointing fingers at the other, we're not system operators, so we just hate everybody equally.

Again, thanks for taking the time !!

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Okay, so the answer for both of you is no utility experience.

That being established, I say that without having done any significant research (and I do mean significant) to supplement the lack of industry knowledge, you might just be out of your depth to make the statements you're making. I can also tell by some of the statements that have been made, no significant research has been done.

Yes, the whole deal is a shit sandwich. The fact of the matter though is what we are seeing is the result of stupid liberal politicians and their stupid decisions. I can tell you firsthand that the state regulations force utilities to take certain courses of action that no sane company ever would. I get the feeling that @Xring01, @Brobee, @bldrinker and some others know exactly what I mean by that.

We could have a fantastic and modern infrastructure in place if it were not for the prohibitive costs/restrictions CA regulations put on accomplishing that. As Xring said, other utilities in other areas laugh at what goes on in CA.

It's real easy to blame the utilities right off because that seems like the most obvious cause. I don't blame people for doing that as a knee jerk reaction. But arguing with people who work in the industry and know the game when they point out what's really happening is asinine.

Dig deeper. Live it. Then you may see things differently.

No, I'm not out of my depth saying there is a better way and both the state government and the utility companies sit on their hands for a litany of reasons.

Once again, all I am saying is the following -

All I'm asking for is to objectively look at the current system. I don't see how anyone could disagree that the current relationship between state government and the public utilities contains the following:

1. Little accountability
2. Lots of waste
3. Collusion
4. Could be a much better service for the ratepayer

That is it. I am not saying that anyone that works for a utility is a bad person, or is doing a bad job - aside from the c suite and the board of these utilities, as well as state government.

 

[4Waters]

Yes, the whole deal is a shit sandwich. The fact of the matter though is what we are seeing is the result of stupid liberal politicians and their stupid decisions. I can tell you firsthand that the state regulations force utilities to take certain courses of action that no sane company ever would.

This is exactly what we are talking about, not you guys in the field, we are talking about how the CEO's, boards and politicians allow this shit to happen. When the utilities start a fire the politicians immediately point fingers at the utility companies and they are told to just accept it, the politicians are tying the utilities hands when in fact the cause is actually the actions of the politicians, it's time to throw them under the bus, believe me the voters will have the utilities back, we're tired of power interruptions and fires.

 

[Taboma]

How many times has APS or SRP been sued for causing a wildfire?
PG&E will probably be out $50 Billion minimum based on the Paradise fire... thats one fire!

Hell SCE got sued for starting a wildfire, that started near a de energized transmission line. Get this... the line had been out of service for 18 months, but they didnt have time or resources to take the structures/wires down...

GOT SUED ANYWAY.... when they couldnt have started the fire due to an energized line... NOPE NOPE NOPE...

Well if a jury decided that verdict, that confirms that the vast majority have no idea why light bulbs even light
This also confirms how democrats get elected
( Sorry I had to toss that in, my ranking in RDP's two "Unhinged" sections has been seriously downgraded as of late due to a couple of misguided "Likes" )

Hold on whilst I get the neighbors to start sending advise to Sacramento on how to fix our failing power grid ---- ummmmmm nope.

 

[Wizard29]

That however does not relieve them of their responsibility to maintain their infrastructure....*snip*...The ratepayer money has been squandered and mismanaged for decades. To believe anything else is a cop out. Other states don't have these problems. Why is that?

No, I'm not out of my depth saying there is a better way and both the state government and the utility companies sit on their hands for a litany of reasons.

Once again, all I am saying is the following -

All I'm asking for is to objectively look at the current system. I don't see how anyone could disagree that the current relationship between state government and the public utilities contains the following:

1. Little accountability
2. Lots of waste
3. Collusion
4. Could be a much better service for the ratepayer

That is it. I am not saying that anyone that works for a utility is a bad person, or is doing a bad job - aside from the c suite and the board of these utilities, as well as state government.

I guess you meant something else with your first quote above. There is a ton of money spent on infrastructure maintenance. A ton. But a ton just isn't enough given the costs involved with doing it in CA. And who says the fires and power shut offs are all due to insufficient maintenance? Can you provide details as to the percentage of utility caused fires that were started as a direct result of lack of maintenance? Can you provide details on how rate payer money has been squandered?

Other states don't have these problems because, well, they aren't CA. It is that simple. Where the utilities come up short can usually be directly tracked back to something some dumb CA politician did. Are the utilities perfect? Certainly not, but it is important to keep in mind that utilities have a responsibility to provide shareholders with a benefit just like any other company, but must also adhere to more stringent CA regulations that other companies don't. Difficult spot.

You mentioned a few points:


1. Little accountability - Actually there's quite a bit. The reports utilities must file with the CPUC on a variety of topics is never ending.
2. Lots of waste - Mainly state mandated waste. Like any company, sometimes money gets spent on stupid stuff here and there, but the lion's share is spent on things required for compliance with some rule or another.
3. Collusion - Not sure on specifics there. Could always be some backdoor deal between some politician and members of the board, but with literally billions of dollars in play, how big of an impact would a backdoor deal be? In my experience, the state rarely does anything for the sheer benefit of the utility, so can't be that many good deals going on.
4. Could be a much better service for the ratepayer - Sure could if the state would get the F out of the way and let the utilities do their jobs without all the red tape and dollars that go with it.

 

[Wizard29]

This is exactly what we are talking about, not you guys in the field, we are talking about how the CEO's, boards and politicians allow this shit to happen. When the utilities start a fire the politicians immediately point fingers at the utility companies and they are told to just accept it, the politicians are tying the utilities hands when in fact the cause is actually the actions of the politicians, it's time to throw them under the bus, believe me the voters will have the utilities back, we're tired of power interruptions and fires.

I'm not in the field. Take that for what it's worth. The bottom line is utilities don't have a choice. They are are at the mercy of the state. Instead of being mad at the utilities, take a hard look at what the state is making them do.

now edison doesn't have to upgrade and maintain their shit because they can just shut it off when the wind blows, they get rewarded for doing a shitty job.

There is an unbelievable amount of money spent on upgrades and maintenance. But the costs are so high (thank CA), the utilities must manage within that. Take wood transmission poles. Roughly $30K on average to replace one of them. Do you know how many of those there are on the system? Chances are you won't be able to drive very far without seeing a line of them. Is $30K high for one pole? Sure is, but thank the state (once again) for the costs associated with getting permits, environmental compliance, etc. There just isn't enough money available to replace the whole grid and make it what people want to see. The state approves only so much to be spent per three year period.

Besides, this whole topic started with the shutting off of someone's power because of the wind. That has little to nothing to do with maintenance. Fires don't typically start as a result of deficient maintenance. They usually start with something getting into the lines or an equipment malfunction.

 

[Rajobigguy]

The worst thing that has happened was the deregulating of the the electric companies. Back when they were actual "utilities" the system worked very well with all most no interruptions. Back in that time Edison was the 1000 lb. gorilla and ran the entire system. Then in '99 deregulation forced them to sell off most of their generating stations to independent power producers for the sake of competition which would of course drive down the rates ( anyone remember their rates going down ). This was all done at a time when most older units were required to retrofit catalytic reduction units to their boilers and required months long outages to do this. Price per megawatt went from $3.75 to $1700 due to the fact that it was now an open free market rather than a regulated utility.
The way it used to work was that Edison had a contract with the state to generate and deliver power in a safe reliable way. Edison would front all the money to assure this was possible and then send the bill to the state for reimbursement, the state would review the bill and gauge the money vs performance and then pay it. The whole thing worked flawlessly . The state figured that they could get out of using taxpayer money by deregulating and making it a free market where the end user would foot the entire bill and allow the state to use that tax money for other things ( you know like high speed bullet trains ).
Today power generators are completely on their own to maintain equipment so maintenance has been shifted from proactive to reactive in order to save money and not make large investment in units that have a limited life left, all the large coastal units will be forced to shut down in very near future because they use ocean water to cool the condensers and environmentalists don't like us adding warm water to the ocean ( you know, the whole global warming thing).

 

[spectra3279]

I'm not in the field. Take that for what it's worth. The bottom line is utilities don't have a choice. They are are at the mercy of the state. Instead of being mad at the utilities, take a hard look at what the state is making them do.



There is an unbelievable amount of money spent on upgrades and maintenance. But the costs are so high (thank CA), the utilities must manage within that. Take wood transmission poles. Roughly $30K on average to replace one of them. Do you know how many of those there are on the system? Chances are you won't be able to drive very far without seeing a line of them. Is $30K high for one pole? Sure is, but thank the state (once again) for the costs associated with getting permits, environmental compliance, etc. There just isn't enough money available to replace the whole grid and make it what people want to see. The state approves only so much to be spent per three year period.

Besides, this whole topic started with the shutting off of someone's power because of the wind. That has little to nothing to do with maintenance. Fires don't typically start as a result of deficient maintenance. They usually start with something getting into the lines or an equipment malfunction.

Why does it cost 30k to replace? I know for a fact those poles only cost about 2-300 bucks based on length. I can see maybe 5k to 10k based on labor and equipment. But sure as guvk not 30k per pole

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[rrrr]

Although one option might be, a separation of production and distribution. Not sure it would help, but WTF might and the public gets the pleasure of burying a knife in somebody.

That's how it's done here. I'm paying 11¢/kWH, including all taxes and fees.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Why does it cost 30k to replace? I know for a fact those poles only cost about 2-300 bucks based on length. I can see maybe 5k to 10k based on labor and equipment. But sure as guvk not 30k per pole

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Not sure but I know it’s $500K a mile for high power transmission lines.


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[Looking Glass]

Most people are concerned with their Elec. bill, and everyone here just wants the power on. Excuses,Excuses.

 

[hallett21]

Why does it cost 30k to replace? I know for a fact those poles only cost about 2-300 bucks based on length. I can see maybe 5k to 10k based on labor and equipment. But sure as guvk not 30k per pole

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Poles are closer to $700 in CA.

Crew of 4 guys 5-6k a day. I’d say to change the pole safely you need minimum 2 trucks and closer to 8 guys so call it 12k.

Then there’s the trucks and equipment. I have no idea what they are billed out at.

I’d say if everything went perfect the pole “costs” 15k, no profit.


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[Taboma]

Poles are closer to $700 in CA.

Crew of 4 guys 5-6k a day. I’d say to change the pole safely you need minimum 2 trucks and closer to 8 guys so call it 12k.

Then there’s the trucks and equipment. I have no idea what they are billed out at.

I’d say if everything went perfect the pole “costs” 15k, no profit.


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Now add in enough overhead to run a small country and get-er-done

 

[mesquito_creek]

How do they keep the power on when they keep shutting down plants?

Mohave generating station, Laughlin (SCE) 2005.
Navajo generating plant, Page (LADWP 21%) 2019.
San Onofre Nuke plant, (SCE) 2013.

These are just the ones I know of.

Dan'l

Mesquite Power Plant and Gila River Power Plant were built and purchased to replace the Navajo GS Base load. New large modern Nat gassers built in the valley named San Tan and Kyrene Generation stations. While San Onofre is gone, SRP recently purchased another 2% of nuke output from PaloVerde this year... I think there has been over 5,000 MW of solar added in AZ in the past 10 years... So its being built, but not very exciting and making the news like bringing down a large historic coal plant. The simple economics is that Nat Gas is cheaper than coal price wise for fuel and building highly flexible smaller plants makes good business vs shipping coal power 300 miles across the desert. They also will add capacity to existing plants by adding a turbine etc and that rarely makes the back page of the news. I think there are options to build more capacity to both Mesquite/Gila River... Adding a GE nat gas turbine is almost as simple as placing an order for one off of amazon. Joking, but not really, they are engineered and built to spec off the assembly line.

There is actually a website... https://www.ge.com/power/gas LOL... just contact them and have one sent. The new model is the turbine manufacture tells the utility here's the turbine and built the plant this way, where in the past the utility would engineer and build to design. Those days are long gone.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Another example of Edison being transparent and really forward thinking and looking out for the lives of their customers

As OC Bond Fire Evacuations End, Residents Call Out Failures in Wildfire Emergency Communications

After their second evacuation in two months, canyon residents note poor public communication in evacuations.

voiceofoc.org

Cliff notes - OC has meeting to address communications shortcomings to Silverado Canyon residents that have exposed themselves from the last 2 evacuations in as many months. Of course no representation from Edison shows up. Residents say they weren’t given notice their power would go off. Edison says they were told repeatedly the power would be turned off.

Residents in the canyon could not call in the fire and hit spots allowing it to spread quickly when it broke out, and few knew they were even being evacuated.

 

[WhatExit?]

TPC, I'm late to the party, but what roughly was the cost to install the set up to run the whole house like you have it.
Mainly interested because the MIL is on oxygen. but having power for other things is a definite plus.

The generator alone is around $3,000

Amazon.com : Powerhorse Inverter Generator — 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts : Garden & Outdoor

Amazon.com : Powerhorse Inverter Generator — 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts : Garden & Outdoor

www.amazon.com

Not counting the electrical work on the house...

 

[Mr. C]

The generator alone is around $3,000

Amazon.com : Powerhorse Inverter Generator — 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts : Garden & Outdoor

Amazon.com : Powerhorse Inverter Generator — 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts : Garden & Outdoor

www.amazon.com

Not counting the electrical work on the house...

For the amount of times I might need it, I'm more looking towards the HF - Predator 9000 for about $700.00

 

[Uncle Dave]

Just make sure you understand what you are getting with a predator 9000 in terms of run time (bout 5 gallons every 8 hours) and noise - those are double pane windows.

 

[Mr. C]

Just make sure you understand what you are getting with a predator 9000 in terms of run time (bout 5 gallons every 8 hours) and noise - those are double pane windows.


View attachment 950203

Thanks for the heads up, I guess my neighbors will suffer. LOL The electrical is on the far end of my house.
We have not had our power shut off ever.Fingers crossed. Yes there has been outages for short times.
Just need to be prepared in case. I could get a little inverter one and just run a fridge and my MIL oxygen.

 

[Turnup]

I bought a Generac 6500/7500 from Depot for 800ish (T.O. has 22 last I checked). Its a tad louder than the 3500 but barely hear it inside the house.

 

[Wizard29]

Why does it cost 30k to replace? I know for a fact those poles only cost about 2-300 bucks based on length. I can see maybe 5k to 10k based on labor and equipment. But sure as guvk not 30k per pole

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The cost of the pole itself along with other material, delivery, and you have to pay someone to actually do the ordering and material management.

Crews, vehicles, traffic control as needed...costs more to do on premium time (outside of regular working hours) which is sometimes required to avoid outages at certain times or comply with permit requirements.

Permits and environmental clearances (lots of this in CA) as needed along with paying people to obtain them...

Site restoration such as concrete or asphalt that needs to be replaced after the pole is set as well as dealing with any underground facilities like sewer or water lines that could be affected...

Crews to perform switching as needed as well as paying people to write the switching programs and labor associated with that...

Project management and other miscellaneous overhead costs...

It all adds up. Not every pole hits the $30K mark. That's an average. Some are really easy out in the desert set in dirt with only one transmission circuit and no distribution underbuild. Others are not so easy and sometimes require specialized crews and equipment including helicopters to get done.

Replacing a pole looks easy at first glance, but there's a whole lot more to it than people realize.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Replacing a pole looks easy at first glance, but there's a whole lot more to it than people realize.

Looks like a fuckin nightmare to me -even the easy ones.

 

[Wizard29]

Another example of Edison being transparent and really forward thinking and looking out for the lives of their customers

As OC Bond Fire Evacuations End, Residents Call Out Failures in Wildfire Emergency Communications

After their second evacuation in two months, canyon residents note poor public communication in evacuations.

voiceofoc.org

Cliff notes - OC has meeting to address communications shortcomings to Silverado Canyon residents that have exposed themselves from the last 2 evacuations in as many months. Of course no representation from Edison shows up. Residents say they weren’t given notice their power would go off. Edison says they were told repeatedly the power would be turned off.

Residents in the canyon could not call in the fire and hit spots allowing it to spread quickly when it broke out, and few knew they were even being evacuated.

Yeah, because SCE and other CA utilities just shut off power to customers without making any effort to notify them. Do you really believe that?

I have friends who live in that area. They borrowed a generator from me because their power was out. They received a text notification in the morning and the power was shut off at about 9 that night. Seems like pretty adequate notice. Is it possible that there were data errors in the system and some people weren't notified? Yes. I wonder though how many of these people have their contact information properly updated so SCE could actually reach them. There is no way SCE shut off power before sending out notices that power would be shut off. Outside of an unexpected emergency, that just doesn't happen.

If you saw the level of effort and money that goes into outage notifications, you might see it differently.

Few even knew they were being evacuated? When I've been in an evacuation situation, I didn't receive a text or phone call to tell me. Cops or firefighters showed up at the door. Is it SCE's fault that didn't happen for some residents in this case? Seems like that one falls on the Sheriff's department and fire departments. Understandably, that can be a tough job to get to every house in a canyon that isn't a tract layout and there are random properties here and there.

When you live in a rural-ish area or really anywhere for that matter, you have to know that in an emergent situation, communications might not work as designed. If you live up that canyon and it's windy and SCE has repeatedly said that power could be shut off in certain areas and they've done it several times (so much so that it's even a recurring topic on the news) you have to expect that might happen. Best thing is be prepared and don't rely entirely on other agencies for your safety

 

[hallett21]

Yeah, because SCE and other CA utilities just shut off power to customers without making any effort to notify them. Do you really believe that?

I have friends who live in that area. They borrowed a generator from me because their power was out. They received a text notification in the morning and the power was shut off at about 9 that night. Seems like pretty adequate notice. Is it possible that there were data errors in the system and some people weren't notified? Yes. I wonder though how many of these people have their contact information properly updated so SCE could actually reach them. There is no way SCE shut off power before sending out notices that power would be shut off. Outside of an unexpected emergency, that just doesn't happen.

If you saw the level of effort and money that goes into outage notifications, you might see it differently.

Few even knew they were being evacuated? When I've been in an evacuation situation, I didn't receive a text or phone call to tell me. Cops or firefighters showed up at the door. Is it SCE's fault that didn't happen for some residents in this case? Seems like that one falls on the Sheriff's department and fire departments. Understandably, that can be a tough job to get to every house in a canyon that isn't a tract layout and there are random properties here and there.

When you live in a rural-ish area or really anywhere for that matter, you have to know that in an emergent situation, communications might not work as designed. If you live up that canyon and it's windy and SCE has repeatedly said that power could be shut off in certain areas and they've done it several times (so much so that it's even a recurring topic on the news) you have to expect that might happen. Best thing is be prepared and don't rely entirely on other agencies for your safety

My thoughts as well.

Growing up in a rural area I was taught that help may not ever come. Every fire I’ve dealt with I knew about long before the cops/fire dept were at the door.

We can go round and round on the short comings of utilities. Fact is they all said in CA there would be shutdowns. You can either prepare for it, generate your own power, or move away.

I make more money working than fighting the man. And no, the majority of our business is not generator work.


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[Uncle Dave]

Yeah, because SCE and other CA utilities just shut off power to customers without making any effort to notify them. Do you really believe that?

I have friends who live in that area. They borrowed a generator from me because their power was out. They received a text notification in the morning and the power was shut off at about 9 that night. Seems like pretty adequate notice. Is it possible that there were data errors in the system and some people weren't notified? Yes. I wonder though how many of these people have their contact information properly updated so SCE could actually reach them. There is no way SCE shut off power before sending out notices that power would be shut off. Outside of an unexpected emergency, that just doesn't happen.

If you saw the level of effort and money that goes into outage notifications, you might see it differently.

Few even knew they were being evacuated? When I've been in an evacuation situation, I didn't receive a text or phone call to tell me. Cops or firefighters showed up at the door. Is it SCE's fault that didn't happen for some residents in this case? Seems like that one falls on the Sheriff's department and fire departments. Understandably, that can be a tough job to get to every house in a canyon that isn't a tract layout and there are random properties here and there.

When you live in a rural-ish area or really anywhere for that matter, you have to know that in an emergent situation, communications might not work as designed. If you live up that canyon and it's windy and SCE has repeatedly said that power could be shut off in certain areas and they've done it several times (so much so that it's even a recurring topic on the news) you have to expect that might happen. Best thing is be prepared and don't rely entirely on other agencies for your safety

Cant speak for SCE, but I can tell you PG&E did a crappy communication job last year and it got just a bit better this year

I had to time 200 employees over two shifts, and they didnt get the turn off or turn on time right once, and we couldn't get a map that actually had street names on it at first and addresses lookups weren't correct.

Then we found out we were on the hospital microgrid which wasnt communicated to to us initially (we found out when the power surprising came back on when it was supposed to be down) , and it had its own up/ down timing windows and availability so it couldnt be fully depended on either.

What this means was every event had an off -on-off-on cycle each one unreliable in its timing that on top of scheduling nightmares we had to ride through each cycle with our own onsite generators to keep our IT from imploding, or if we took our own gensets down at risk the Microgrid burping which it did a few times.

You tell an office full of people not to show up one day or that they should leave early they only want to know one thing - Am I being paid fully for the day, and the 250K-ish per day of shipments had to be cancelled and rescheduled because you cant let people stay in a dark building and the emergency stuff all got flattened from dozens of 100% depletions over days and weeks of being up and down.

Add in a few random snow days, and keep it going through 2020 and covid - and this shit has taken years off my life

 

[TPC]

Do most gas stations have back up generators ? Curious how much gas you guys keep stored around the house for the 2 to 3 days you need to run a generator .

We have 60 gallons in the toy hauler and usually 30 more in containers staged for off road trips.

I’d prefer to have a natural gas powered generator but can’t find one that is a quiet inverter at 50 amps. Noisy ones sure but not quiet ones

The Honda 7000i natural gas conversion only has 30 amp outlets.

 

[TPC]

Our new truck puked again and we’re stuck in Sedona.

Power went out for 24 hours back home and the kids fired up the generator and powered the house.

Freezer, refer everything. They have online classes and tests all day long so It was essential.

My phone blew up with texts from the neighbors asking how the entire house was powered up.
WTF? They asked.

They didnt hear the Generator.
Maynard kept it fueled and dialed in.
We’re still dealing with the broken truck.
Lemon law still pending.

 

[spectra3279]

Poles are closer to $700 in CA.

Crew of 4 guys 5-6k a day. I’d say to change the pole safely you need minimum 2 trucks and closer to 8 guys so call it 12k.

Then there’s the trucks and equipment. I have no idea what they are billed out at.

I’d say if everything went perfect the pole “costs” 15k, no profit.


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Your saying those guys are making over a thousand a day in pay?

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[hallett21]

Your saying those guys are making over a thousand a day in pay?

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No. I’m saying they cost over 1,000 a day including their pay.

General liability and workman comp for electrical work is stupid expensive.


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[mesquito_creek]

How do they keep the power on when they keep shutting down plants?

Mohave generating station, Laughlin (SCE) 2005.
Navajo generating plant, Page (LADWP 21%) 2019.
San Onofre Nuke plant, (SCE) 2013.

These are just the ones I know of.

Dan'l

FYI Dan'l... Not anything you would probably catch, unless you are an industry bot like I am,... but this week another 100 MW came on line at Saint Solar owned by NextEra Energy Resources LLC. Its a 20 year design solar generator... You can find stuff online about it. Its in Coolidge AZ.

 

[Mr. C]

Well, I have to give SCE a little shout out. They came out today (to the house) because they are going to be doing maintenance from 9pm til 4am on Jan 3rd and know we have a person in the house that needs power for her oxygen. Not sure if it was to confirm or verify or what but the wife said they will be dropping off a generator for us to use during the outage.
So for all the bitching and complaining I wanted to give props when i can.

 

[4Waters]

So during the last wind event Edison shut off nearly half of Simi Valley and the wind gusts barely got over 30mph, well this wind event the wind gusts are well over 45mph and only a couple of neighborhoods are turned off. Apparently the stronger the wind the less potential for downed powerlines and fires. SMH

 

[jeteater1]

So during the last wind event Edison shut off nearly half of Simi Valley and the wind gusts barely got over 30mph, well this wind event the wind gusts are well over 45mph and only a couple of neighborhoods are turned off. Apparently the stronger the wind the less potential for downed powerlines and fires. SMH

Its been blowing 20 30 mph for the last couple hours, suprized they haven't shut ours off in Aguanga. Good size fire going on in De Luz.