Alaska Airlines window malfunction

[boatpi]

Rrrrr, that’s a great photo. Why don’t you see if you can capture one off of published photos and put both of them side-by-side look where the tabs are bolted to the fuselage that’s probably the issue.

Here’s what I found not the best, but I’m looking at the tabs. It almost looks like the plug itself might’ve been ripped away if you noticed the bolts are still in place and it almost looks like the tabs from the plug are still there. If that’s the case, then I would imagine it be a structural failure on the plug itself.

Hard to tell.

 

[n2otoofast4u]

The worlds biggest geocache competition is happening in my backyard with people looking for the door.

 

[86403]

I wandered over to PPrune for the first time in a couple of years to see if I could gain some technical knowledge about the way the door or plug interfaces with the fuselage. All I can say is holy shit, the website has been taken over by sim pilots, FR24 geeks, planespotters, and momma's basement dwellers.

About 50% of the posts regarding the Alaska Airlines incident are from noobs that signed up in the last 48 hours. The thread about the JAL collision at Haneda is unbelievable. There's 46 pages of absolute stupidity.

Fair assessment. 10-15 years ago The Prune was a good source for accurate info. Not so much anymore.

 

[JDKRXW]

A lot of people losing their minds over supposed Boeing malfeasance don't have a clue that Spirit AeroSystems built the fuselage, and if it wasn't done correctly, they're the ones that should be holding the shit sandwich.

Perception is 99% of what's going to happen.
The name on the brass plate above your head when step on the plane through the main boarding door says Boeing.
They're the ones who are going to be left holding the sandwich.

 

[86403]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/

 

[FasterBae]

Alaska airlines partnered with hisun on that door

 

[RitcheyRch]

A leading theory on airline forum is the bolts holding plug in place were not tightened down by Boeing. The plug is installed loosely by the fuselage contractor and Boeing either puts a door in the spot or finishes tightening down in the factory depending on how many seats airline wants. A fairly common procedure is B will take the plug out frequently even if it is going to be reinstalled to add access to install the interior components. It’s theorized in this case they did not remove plug to finish interior and missed tightening the bolts to spec which then loosened and there you go.

 

[wzuber]

And this is another reason to keep the seatbelt on when in your seat ! Whether it’s sudden turbulence or some other crazy shit like this.

Solid point and good reminder. Thx

 

[wzuber]

Probably be dead way before you hit the ground

Right?
Or at least unconscious.... hopefully. Can't imagine how horrible it would be to do that consciously...

 

[OLDRAAT]

Curious on how many flights the plane had performed since being delivered? Would repetitive pressure/depressure cycles be a contributing factor for the total failure of the plug if the attachment hardware was installed or torqued out of spec. initially?
Just thinking out loud.

 

[Sandlord]

Have they retrieved the door plug?

 

[n2otoofast4u]

Have they retrieved the door plug?

No.

I am in Cedar Hills right now, and there is an all out search party going on right now! Cedar Hills is HIGHLY populated, it’s a fkn miracle this didn’t go through someone’s roof or tent!

 

[Markus]

Curious on how many flights the plane had performed since being delivered? Would repetitive pressure/depressure cycles be a contributing factor for the total failure of the plug if the attachment hardware was installed or torqued out of spec. initially?
Just thinking out loud.

I think it said 145 flights.

 

[Markus]

Perception is 99% of what's going to happen.
The name on the brass plate above your head when step on the plane through the main boarding door says Boeing.
They're the ones who are going to be left holding the sandwich.

Given Boeing’s track record of f-ck-ups with the 787 and the 737 MAX, Boeing will have a lot to explain.

 

[Orange Juice]

A leading theory on airline forum is the bolts holding plug in place were not tightened down by Boeing. The plug is installed loosely by the fuselage contractor and Boeing either puts a door in the spot or finishes tightening down in the factory depending on how many seats airline wants. A fairly common procedure is B will take the plug out frequently even if it is going to be reinstalled to add access to install the interior components. It’s theorized in this case they did not remove plug to finish interior and missed tightening the bolts to spec which then loosened and there you go.

And it had not been through an annual inspection, as it’s too new.

I’m wondering if they were having trouble on previous flight holding pressure.?

 

[wzuber]

And it had not been through an annual inspection, as it’s too new.

I’m wondering if they were having trouble on previous flight holding pressure.?

You would think if that were the case reports of a noise or scream from that area would have been made by passengers or personnel with that much vacuum over that surface area?

 

[traquer]

I'm sure aerospace is better, but a friend works at the Toyota plant in texas and he has some stories lol. Not the best and brightest putting together those Tundras that's for sure.. Good thing the Mr Toyoda inspired SOPs and pokiyoki tools exist!

That being said, workers might be getting more stupid and lazy, but thankfully modern materials and design is better than ever before. That composite airbus that crashed in Japan held up extremely well. So that's comforting at least lol. They say the fire from the bottom would have eaten through an aluminum plane a lot faster than composite, as composite has insulating properties of sorts, and although it will for sure burn, aluminum would have simply melted a lot quicker.

 

[530RL]

When looking at the two pictures, it appears the plug came off cleanly without breaking or bending any of the airframe mounting brackets?

 

[FreeBird236]

Rrrrr, that’s a great photo. Why don’t you see if you can capture one off of published photos and put both of them side-by-side look where the tabs are bolted to the fuselage that’s probably the issue.

Here’s what I found not the best, but I’m looking at the tabs. It almost looks like the plug itself might’ve been ripped away if you noticed the bolts are still in place and it almost looks like the tabs from the plug are still there. If that’s the case, then I would imagine it be a structural failure on the plug itself.

Hard to tell. View attachment 1320287

View attachment 1320287

I wonder if there's a type of threaded bung welded to the plug tabs, and the welds were bad? That or defective, too short, or loose bolts.

 

[boatpi]

Looks like all the bolts are in place, and they seem to have retainers. Soooooo not torqued to spec?

 

[wzuber]

Does it seem strange to anyone else that it appears as though the entire retention system failed ALL at once and suddenly? All bolts/tabs etc. whatever it is that failed, appear to have all sheared at the same moment...no tearing from one point across the failed component as if torn out as typically would occur in a failure.

 

[86403]

Great technical description of the plug-type door on the Max 9.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

And it had not been through an annual inspection, as it’s too new.

I’m wondering if they were having trouble on previous flight holding pressure.?

Reminds me of a story from back in my avionics days... A small airline had purchased 2 brand new Fairchild Metroliners. They had been flying them for about a month when the flight crew squawked the altimeters not indicating correctly on one bird. The instruments would stop at 8000 feet, a few thousand above the field elevation in ABQ.

We test the whole system starting with the altimeters, it was all good until we did a static air check and the system wouldn't hold (it is supposed to hold vacuum with no leaks) which meant the altimeters were simply indicating the pressure inside the cabin.

I started checking fittings and found the static line tube was hanging loose at the static port in the tail. The compression nut had never been installed from the factory. It had remained inserted into the static port by friction until it rattled free. That system has been tested numerous times and passed each test.

Now that isn't even close to what happened to the Boeing airplane, but it shows that workmanship defects can slip past all sorts of tests and checks, but still hang on for quite a few hours.

 

[Orange Juice]

 

[FreeBird236]

Great technical description of the plug-type door on the Max 9.

After watching the video, it's obvious I didn't have a clue how the door attaches.

 

[rrrr]

When looking at the two pictures, it appears the plug came off cleanly without breaking or bending any of the airframe mounting brackets?

Looks like all the bolts are in place, and they seem to have retainers. Soooooo not torqued to spec?

Great technical description of the plug-type door on the Max 9.

The plug moves out and up when the four bolts are removed. Those striker pads on the mishap aircraft aren't damaged because the plug opened in the manner it was supposed to. It just happened quickly.

Those plug pins in the striker pads are for alignment, not retention. If you look closely at my photo, you can see the two bolts at the top in the retainer channel, and the two at the bottom on the spring hinge assembly. That's what holds it in place. You can also see the steel cable retainer strap near the retainer channel. They're all pointed out specifically in the video. BTW the photo I posted is not the mishap aircraft. It's a United Airlines plane undergoing maintenance.

 

[n2otoofast4u]

Plug found in a backyard!

Also 2 phones found. One still works!

 

[n2otoofast4u]

 

[boatpi]

Portland area man finds missing door ‘plug’ torn from Alaska Airlines flight in backyard

After an Alaska Airlines flight’s shocking emergency landing at Portland International Airport Friday evening, authorities and community members spent Sunday searching for parts of the missing airplane section and other debris.

www.kptv.com

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

Nice. They knew it was leaking air and don’t take it out of service for maintenance.

Not flying Alaska.

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Newsmax is also reporting the airplane had 3 different pressurization warnings on 3 different flights days before the failure.
So what they did was restrict the aircraft to short hop type flights, and took it off of the Hawaii route.
I think Boeing may have just got a senior partner in the blame for this mess.

 

[FreeBird236]

Not giving a number, but United Airlines said they have found loose bolts on several planes that have been inspected so far. NBC.

 

[Racey]

View attachment 1320491

What damning thing did the pilots say?...

"Accidentally erased" my ass.

 

[hallett21]

What damning thing did the pilots say?...

"Accidentally erased" my ass.

There’s been a recording going around on Instagram, pilot sounds calm and put together.

Do the ATCs not record as well?

 

[cofooter]

Who would even willingly board a Max plane.......what else could possibly go wrong..........

 

[BabyRay]

What damning thing did the pilots say?...

"Accidentally erased" my ass.

I only “know” what I read, and I read that it wasn’t erased. Rather, it was recorded over because the box only has limited capacity. Apparently, they only care about a flight’s end.

 

[Racey]

I only “know” what I read, and I read that it wasn’t erased. Rather, it was recorded over because the box only has limited capacity. Apparently, they only care about a flight’s end.

How long did they fly around with the fucking door gone? That recorder has got to hold a couple hours or more...

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Who would even willingly board a Max plane.......what else could possibly go wrong..........

my sentiments exactly....I avoid that contraption at all costs when flying. Just not going to get on the cheap bidder death tube that should have been cancelled and scrapped during the original fiasco...

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

How long did they fly around with the fucking door gone? That recorder has got to hold a couple hours or more...

It’s 2 hours. Unlike, for some reason, Europe where theirs goes for 24 hours. Maybe the lawyers in this country would have a field day with 24 hours of cockpit banter?

 

[hallett21]

It’s 2 hours. Unlike, for some reason, Europe where theirs goes for 24 hours. Maybe the lawyers in this country would have a field day with 24 hours of cockpit banter?

From the videos I’ve seen they had 18,000 lbs of fuel on board when the pilot makes the emergency landing call. I guess I assumed this was made shortly after take off? Well inside 2 hours…?

 

[bowtiejunkie]

There's a circuit breaker in the cockpit that must be pulled to stop the CVR. I'm only aware of this from reading the transcript of Southwest 1380 NTSB docket recently. The Alaska Air flight was 20 minutes from what I read, add in time at the gate upon landing with emergency personnel coming aboard. Then, the pilots likely left the plane before NTSB boarded to actually obtain the CVR. I could see 2 hours elapsing from take off to whenever NTSB obtained the CVR.

 

[thmterry]

Whats the difference between a Max 8 and Max 9? I am flying to Florida tomorrow on a Southwest Max 8

 

[shintoooo]

NTSB live now

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[4Waters]

Whats the difference between a Max 8 and Max 9? I am flying to Florida tomorrow on a Southwest Max 8

One number different


Honestly IDK

 

[rrrr]

Whats the difference between a Max 8 and Max 9? I am flying to Florida tomorrow on a Southwest Max 8

Fuselage length and passenger capacity. The MAX-8 is shorter, and has a single overwing exit opening on each side.

The MAX-9 has two overwing exit openings on each side. Alaska's utilized seating capacity is two classes, which doesn't require an exit in that opening. That's why the plug is there. Airlines that utilize a single class, and therefore denser configuration, require the additional exit.

 

[JDKRXW]

Whats the difference between a Max 8 and Max 9? I am flying to Florida tomorrow on a Southwest Max 8

Max 8's don't have this door and apparently not all Max 9's have it. Depends on total # of seats.

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

Max 8's don't have this door and apparently not all Max 9's have it. Depends on total # of seats.

Southwest doesn’t do the door plug as they are straight cattle car.

 

[Singleton]

Max 8's don't have this door and apparently not all Max 9's have it. Depends on total # of seats.

Issue is with those 9’s where the emergency exit is plugged and not an emergency exit door.
Too many folks touch that plug after assembly. Door is used to load interior at each customers finish shop as an example. Gut says the plugs are going bye bye and it’s becomes a full emergency exit on all.

 

[rrrr]

There’s been a recording going around on Instagram, pilot sounds calm and put together.

Do the ATCs not record as well?

The cockpit voice recorders in US registered aircraft are only required to record 2 hours of cockpit conversation after the system is powered up before departure. On longer flights, when the 2 hours pass, the previous data is cleared and a new 2 hour period begins. When the CVR is restarted for a new flight, the previously stored information is overwritten.

Aircraft flying under European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) authority have CVRs that record in 25 hour increments. On December 4, 2023, the FAA issued a notice of proposed rulemaking that would require new US manufactured aircraft to comply with EASA standards.

The Alaska Airlines aircraft was apparently left powered up after landing back in Portland. After 2 hours of recording, the previously captured CVR data during the flight was overwritten, so in this case the investigators don't have a recording of what transpired in the cockpit leading up to and after the decompression event.

While tapes of radio communications between the aircraft and Portland tower ground, departure, approach control, and the Seattle Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) exist, they did not capture any dialogue between the Alaska crew members.

 

[rrrr]

Newsmax is also reporting the airplane had 3 different pressurization warnings on 3 different flights days before the failure.
So what they did was restrict the aircraft to short hop type flights, and took it off of the Hawaii route.
I think Boeing may have just got a senior partner in the blame for this mess.

The alarm was almost certainly unrelated to the decompression. If the plug had been leaking enough to cause a cabin altitude alert, the noise from the escaping pressure would have easily been noticable to cabin crew and passengers. That would cause a cabin altitude alarm.

It's more likely the alarm was related to one of the two redundant cabin pressure controller modules, which is a different alarm than the cabin altitude alarm. If one module fails, the other one still maintains the correct cabin pressure. This is not uncommon.

The alarm condition and loss of redundancy requires that the airplane be removed from the extended twin engine operations, or ETOPS, routes over water, because if the second controller fails and cabin pressure is lost, the aircraft cannot fly above 10,000' altitude for obvious reasons. The lower altitude substantially increases fuel burn, and if the second failure happens over a certain distance from land, the aircraft cannot make landfall before fuel depletion.