Who's the expert on Fire Code? I have a couple questions

[Racey]

Fire Department is telling me that a building I lease out (which is sprinklered, built in 1987) all of a sudden has to have live alarm monitoring, dual (redundant) phone lines + a private company monitor the system, which adds up to about $100 a month. It's a block building, and it's massively sprinklered, and the sprinkler system is totally current on it's tags etc. The building has never been monitored, ever, it's not set up to be monitored, there are no phone lines to the panel, it's always been fine until now. Now they want to squeeze me for an extra $1,200 a year basically, plus whatever it's gonna cost to have some dipshit with a special license come hook up some little wires to a new panel for however much an hour, plus permit fees for even looking at that stupid ass panel, Let's just say I'm not pleased at all, it's always something new with these guys. Am i forced to comply out of the blue and fork out a shit load of cash to update the building all of a sudden? is there any grandfathering with this stuff? Like i said the building is just as it sits when it was built, nothing has changed, now they are basically saying out of the blue i need monitoring to comply with International Fire Code (which without saying so directly means all the other shit that goes along with it). :thumbsdown

What's the dealy-o

 

[djunkie]

Havasu1986 is in the fire sprinkler business.

 

[Hammer]

Is it currently occupied ?

 

[.boatpoor]

I heard they are going to warm up with you , then they're headed down to Pasadena on Altadena dr looking for the BIG DOG'S shop......

 

[Racey]

Is it currently occupied ?

Yes tenant has been there for probably going on 10 years, they are in the warehousing business, selling electronics online

 

[Angler]

What city?

 

[Racey]

What city?

Boulder city, NV

 

[SBMech]

Tell them to fuck off. Have them bring you a court order to comply with the "new law". You either find out "A" that it's legit and you need to comply..or "B" that as you suspect...they are just dicking you. Your Insurance Co should have sent you a letter with your renewal if it was an issue I would think......

But I am in CA...they will say and try to bully you into doing most of their job for them...75% of it is supposed to be "suggested" not presented as a new permit.

 

[Go-Fly]

Best thing to do is, sit on your hands and wait until you have a second call in writting. Then call the installer or the person that does your yearly inspection, if not the same and have them look at the system. They then can write you a letter addressing any changes that need to be done. I know what you have described is for multiple family dwellings not warehouse space.:headscratch:

 

[CampbellCarl]

Ask them for a written 'Notice of Correction'. It will cite the code that is in 'violation'. Then do your research to determine if all 'new' construction is required and/or ALL buildings (grandfather effect). Don't lie down with them Shane. Find the codes and read them yourself.

All of the 'redundant dialer' etc is correct for current code. Also research the code when the building was built and sprinkled.

Arm yourself with as much code knowledge as you cam.

CC

 

[Luvnlife]

Just wait for the next guy to come inspect the property. All of those issues will be alright but he will have a list of his bullshit hoops to jump through:grumble::grumble:

 

[CampbellCarl]

Best thing to do is, sit on your hands and wait until you have a second call in writting. Then call the installer or the person that does your yearly inspection, if not the same and have them look at the system. They then can write you a letter addressing any changes that need to be done. I know what you have described is for multiple family dwellings not warehouse space.:headscratch:

Also retail spaces. I build and remodel big box retail that requires dual and sometimes double/dual monitoring.

CC

 

[Racey]

This is not retail space, it's not open to customers, it's shop space basically, industrial park, we have zero easement between buidlings (other independent buildings common wall to mine, 3 total, mine is the only one with sprinklers, mine was there first before any of the others, the other adjoined addresses owned by others fall under the sq ft limit to not need sprinklers). Believe me i will not lie down for this, not only is it total bullshit in my opinion, even if the building was monitored and there was a fire they'd just sit out front and wait for the sprinklers to put it out, hell the sprinklers would put it out before they even arrived most likely. The building is not some run down pos, it's a bitchin, clean cinder block building with nice office space and about 5,000 feet of open warehouse, all air conditioned, etc.

 

[Go-Fly]

This is not retail space, it's not open to customers, it's shop space basically, industrial park, we have zero easement between buidlings (other independent buildings common wall to mine, 3 total, mine is the only one with sprinklers, mine was there first before any of the others, the other adjoined addresses owned by others fall under the sq ft limit to not need sprinklers). Believe me i will not lie down for this, not only is it total bullshit in my opinion, even if the building was monitored and there was a fire they'd just sit out front and wait for the sprinklers to put it out, hell the sprinklers would put it out before they even arrived most likely. The building is not some run down pos, it's a bitchin, clean cinder block building with nice office space and about 5,000 feet of open warehouse, all air conditioned, etc.

Is this the local FD telling you this or your yearly inspection on your sprinkler system?

 

[CampbellCarl]

Is this the local FD telling you this or your yearly inspection on your sprinkler system?

Original post sez FD.

CC

 

[rocket98]

Is this the local FD telling you this or your yearly inspection on your sprinkler system?

x2 Who is requiring you to make the up grades.

 

[Racey]

x2 Who is requiring you to make the up grades.

FD, they sent a certified letter, but it's very benignly worded, it just says i have to have monitoring to meet International Fire Code, it also has a copy of a cancellation letter from some company that claimed to be doing the monitoring before (though i don't see how, as i said the system isn't set up for, or capable of monitoring period) that was addressed to my tenant, not me, and courtesy copied to the FD making them aware that they were no longer providing monitoring services....

 

[FlatNv]

Ask them for a written 'Notice of Correction'. It will cite the code that is in 'violation'. Then do your research to determine if all 'new' construction is required and/or ALL buildings (grandfather effect). Don't lie down with them Shane. Find the codes and read them yourself.

All of the 'redundant dialer' etc is correct for current code. Also research the code when the building was built and sprinkled.

Arm yourself with as much code knowledge as you cam.

CC

good advice.

Shane, if you end up needing some referrals give me a buzz.:thumbsdown (hope not)

Scott 702-232-8469

 

[Chipster27]

First and foremost, tell them to fuck off and they will shut you down. 20+ years doing fire alarms I've seen it before.

Fire alarm is NFPA 72 and UFC, over 100 heads has to be monitored. AHJ can make you comply at anytime, their sandbox, their rules.

Monthly for fire alarm monitoring shouldn't be over $15/mo. System does require quarterly inspections. Most alarm companies can provide them. Or you can do them yourself, as long as they are documented.

You might want to consider leasing the install as its an operating expense and will save you some capital.

 

[Go-Fly]

FD, they sent a certified letter, but it's very benignly worded, it just says i have to have monitoring to meet International Fire Code, it also has a copy of a cancellation letter from some company that claimed to be doing the monitoring before (though i don't see how, as i said the system isn't set up for, or capable of monitoring period) that was addressed to my tenant, not me, and courtesy copied to the FD making them aware that they were no longer providing monitoring services....

Sounds like a form of spam letter. Call or stop by the FD station 1 and show it to them. If they still want it, have your inspector determin what you need and put it in writting. Put that together with a letter from you, that cancellation letter was a scam. F D won't be happy with the scam letter and may let you off.

 

[Motor Boater]

As others have said do not go on the defensive and tell these guys to fuck off. Asking questions and being nice can literally make this go away. You don't need to lay down, you've got to be firm and gently push the issue but if your a dick...your fucked. I would call a local fire sprinkler architect (someone with a seal that does plans and interprets codes) and have him tell you the code, if the code is not in your favor I would ask every question you can about whats holding you to that code and see if you can get around it. Also, unless you've changed something, applied for new permits, done something without a permit and they caught you...you should be in good shape under your original permit. There are millions of buildings that don't comply with current code and they aren't subject to that code unless they make changes, lose their C of O etc. A lot can be accomplished by going to the city and talking with a reviewer and explaining the situation. Face to face if you are cool to them, they will help you out. If they wont talk to you or say no one is available tell them thank you and you will be sitting in the lobby waiting until someone is available. Plead your case but say as little as you can about the actual building etc. Sometimes if you give up too much info you can bury yourself.

 

[Bobby V]

First and foremost, tell them to fuck off and they will shut you down. 20+ years doing fire alarms I've seen it before.

Fire alarm is NFPA 72 and UFC, over 100 heads has to be monitored. AHJ can make you comply at anytime, their sandbox, their rules.

Monthly for fire alarm monitoring shouldn't be over $15/mo. System does require quarterly inspections. Most alarm companies can provide them. Or you can do them yourself, as long as they are documented.

You might want to consider leasing the install as its an operating expense and will save you some capital.

Thats the key over 100 fire sprinklers.

We do quarterly, semi annual and annual inspections. The fire dept. doesn'r require them. Its usually the insurance company. The fire dept. does require a Title #19 inspection very 5 years though.

 

[Bobby V]

As others have said do not go on the defensive and tell these guys to fuck off. Asking questions and being nice can literally make this go away. You don't need to lay down, you've got to be firm and gently push the issue but if your a dick...your fucked. I would call a local fire sprinkler architect (someone with a seal that does plans and interprets codes) and have him tell you the code, if the code is not in your favor I would ask every question you can about whats holding you to that code and see if you can get around it. Also, unless you've changed something, applied for new permits, done something without a permit and they caught you...you should be in good shape under your original permit. There are millions of buildings that don't comply with current code and they aren't subject to that code unless they make changes, lose their C of O etc. A lot can be accomplished by going to the city and talking with a reviewer and explaining the situation. Face to face if you are cool to them, they will help you out. If they wont talk to you or say no one is available tell them thank you and you will be sitting in the lobby waiting until someone is available. Plead your case but say as little as you can about the actual building etc. Sometimes if you give up too much info you can bury yourself.

I have been in the fire sprinkler business for 30 years. The last 10 in sales and inspections. Its not going to go away. The code is over 100 heads needs to be monitored.

 

[Racey]

Obviously I'm not going to go in shooting, I will be as civil as possible, I'll have to count the heads, there is close to 100, not sure if it's over, But the thing is they have pulled this same shit on my buddy and he doesn't even have sprinklers period, Monitoring is the smallest part of the equation, it's 2 phone lines you have to pay for, or 2 wireless radio connections, plus the money to fuck with the panel. It doesn't sound like a lot but it's a throwing good money away for absolutely nothing, $1,000 a year covers a quarter of the property taxes, or utilities for a month, or any number of other things that actually are of productive use.....

 

[Outdrive1]

Racey my wife is a fire inspector. She said the only reason you would have to bring it up to code is if you are changing or altering anything building wise or changing the occupancy.

 

[Bobby V]

Obviously I'm not going to go in shooting, I will be as civil as possible, I'll have to count the heads, there is close to 100, not sure if it's over, But the thing is they have pulled this same shit on my buddy and he doesn't even have sprinklers period, Monitoring is the smallest part of the equation, it's 2 phone lines you have to pay for, or 2 wireless radio connections, plus the money to fuck with the panel. It doesn't sound like a lot but it's a throwing good money away for absolutely nothing, $1,000 a year covers a quarter of the property taxes, or utilities for a month, or any number of other things that actually are of productive use.....

Threre could be more costs. Does your fire sprinkler system have a electric bell or a water motor gong type bell. You will need a flow switch and a tamper switch installed if you don't have one already.

Racey my wife is a fire inspector. She said the only reason you would have to bring it up to code is if you are changing or altering anything building wise or changing the occupancy.

Yes this is true in some cities. But every department has there own requirements.

 

[Racey]

Racey my wife is a fire inspector. She said the only reason you would have to bring it up to code is if you are changing or altering anything building wise or changing the occupancy.

Would that mean if the current renters leave and new tenants came in, or if they left and i moved my shop in, i would have to bring it up to code?

 

[Outdrive1]

Would that mean if the current renters leave and new tenants came in, or if they left and i moved my shop in, i would have to bring it up to code?

She says it depends on if the new tenants are changing the occupancy. Like from a business to a mercantile.

She's speaking from IFC, International Fire Code. Not all cities and states follow it the same.

 

[Racey]

She says it depends on if the new tenants are changing the occupancy. Like from a business to a mercantile.

She's speaking from IFC, International Fire Code. Not all cities and states follow it the same.

Gotcha, they aren't changing, and they are saying this is about IFC compliance...

 

[Bobby V]

I have seen more water damage from a broken pipe or fire sprinkler that happened over a weekend and didn't have their system moniored.

Check with your insurance they may give you a discount.

 

[Motor Boater]

I have been in the fire sprinkler business for 30 years. The last 10 in sales and inspections. Its not going to go away. The code is over 100 heads needs to be monitored.

Believe me, he can get it to go away. I've done it a million times. He clearly wasn't subject to that code when the bldg was built and even if it's just something they missed they can't make him bring the building up current code unless he is making changes to his existing permits, occupancy etc. think about all the old buildings in Cali that are not up to current earthquake code, they can't randomly go in and tell these guys to tear down the building because it doesn't comply. Codes change every year.

 

[Deckin Around]

WRONG GUYS!!!! At least in Cali

In Cali- Fire Marshall Trumps ALL- regardless if permits/changes/ or upgrades are being made. Building Inspectors can Not do this.

ONLY a Fire Marshall can mandate changes or corrections when there is NO work or corrections being done. Regular building codes and earthquake stuff does not apply but the Fire marshall can and will cite corrections during an annual inspection.


I just had a job in Hollywood where the Fire Marshall made the condo building HOA re-wire all the hallway lights separate from the emergency back-up lights and also secure all the power boxes to the HVAC units on the roof so Fire fighters didn't kick them over when waling on the roof in the dark.

Good Luck.:thumbsup

 

[Motor Boater]

He's in Nevada, it's much different than Cali. Hell in AZ the state fire Marshall has all but disolved their office. They don't even do any reviews anymore, it's all handled by the city. Theres not even a state fire Marshall office in Tucson. I'm not sure about NV since I've only permitted 2 or 3 projects there so that's why I told him to call a local fire sprinkler guy that can interpret the code for him or go to the city and start asking questions.

 

[Bobby V]

WRONG GUYS!!!! At least in Cali

In Cali- Fire Marshall Trumps ALL- regardless if permits/changes/ or upgrades are being made. Building Inspectors can Not do this.

ONLY a Fire Marshall can mandate changes or corrections when there is NO work or corrections being done. Regular building codes and earthquake stuff does not apply but the Fire marshall can and will cite corrections during an annual inspection.


I just had a job in Hollywood where the Fire Marshall made the condo building HOA re-wire all the hallway lights separate from the emergency back-up lights and also secure all the power boxes to the HVAC units on the roof so Fire fighters didn't kick them over when waling on the roof in the dark.

Good Luck.:thumbsup

Yep. See it all the time here in So Cal. The fire marshall is always looking for corrections. This is from NFPA #13. 2002

 

[Racey]

My tenants are dealing with the fire department, they got the letter a few days ahead of me, seems like the Fire Captain is on board with not needing the monitoring as the building it sprinklered and all good to go from an objective safety standpoint, which is some good news, now it just comes down to the city's fire inspector being ok from a strictly compliance standpoint (who is an active duty firefighter from another city working as an independent contractor for the city of boulder city in the role of inspector).....

 

[Bobby V]

Did you find out how fire sprinklers you have. If the building is under 10K sq. ft. you probably don't exceed 100 heads.

 

[rrrr]

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Marshall:

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Marshal: