Where does your dollar go ?

[ace one]

shop rate = $98.00 per hour......can you brake this down and show me where the profit is ?? .....and mean while explain what profit is ?? :hmm

 

[River911]

98 is cheap

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[McRib]

shop rate = $98.00 per hour......can you brake this down and show me where the profit is ?? .....and mean while explain what profit is ?? :hmm

Isnt 20% the general mark for stuff like this??

 

[The Doctor]

Now, couple that with the fact that a good wrench can do a three hour job in two or less without a dime off your bill. There is value in fixing your own stuff I have learned over the years.

 

[ace one]

Isnt 20% the general mark for stuff like this??

Most Marine parts are at about 35% to 40% mark up but with the online stores some parts sell from the mfg on line for less that I can buy them :grumble:

 

[McRib]

Most Marine parts are at about 35% to 40% mark up but with the online stores some parts sell from the mfg on line for less that I can buy them :grumble:

Thats parts. Didnt u say shop labor?? 98 per hour is pure profit if ur the one wrenching. (kinda) ur payin some kid 16 an hour (just a guess) subtract that from 98 and u have ur new gross margin. Subtract overhead blah blah blah and id say ur labor profit ends up in the 45-65 range. Ad that to parts mark up and ur prob in the 65-85 an hr profit range. Im sur im way off the these numbers should prob be way less. All i know is that in my industry if ur profit is 20% ur doin good 30% ur doin fuggen great.

 

[dancudmore]

Welcome to a business where people have decided it should be illegal to make a profit.


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[cjbuilder1]

I'm with Doc here but somewhere North of 5000 RPM and your skillset isn't some of the $98/hr well spent coin?

 

[River911]

Sometimes its better to charge 1/2 as much but take twice as long to fix it. Lol

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[Tom Brown]

Welcome to a business where people have decided it should be illegal to make a profit.

That is hardly a fair representation of reality.

On my last renovation house, the previous owner showed me a quote of $18K for siding, aluminum soffet, facia. My Dad and I did it for around $3K in materials and spent two days doing it. That's $7500 per day for two guys or $3750 per person per day. That is not reasonable.

A few months ago, I changed the rear wheelbearings on my VW at a cost of $130. The parts were genuine VW but came from Portugal via an online discounter. That price includes tax and shipping for both sides. Locally, the parts would have been around $675 for both sides. I was told it would have been on the order of $1100 for the complete job. It took me about 90 minutes and was a pretty simple job. I could do it again in probably 40~45 min. I ordered the complete assembly so it was just a bolt on. Again, that isn't reasonable.

If I have to work for weeks to pay for a job that mechanic can likely do in under 60 minutes, how is that equitable?

 

[River911]

That is hardly a fair representation of reality.

On my last renovation house, the previous owner showed me a quote of $18K for siding, aluminum soffet, facia. My Dad and I did it for around $3K in materials and spent two days doing it. That's $7500 per day for two guys or $3750 per person per day. That is not reasonable.

A few months ago, I changed the rear wheelbearings on my VW at a cost of $130. The parts were genuine VW but came from Portugal via an online discounter. That price includes tax and shipping for both sides. Locally, the parts would have been around $675 for both sides. I was told it would have been on the order of $1100 for the complete job. It took me about 90 minutes and was a pretty simple job. I could do it again in probably 40~45 min. I ordered the complete assembly so it was just a bolt on. Again, that isn't reasonable.

If I have to work for weeks to pay for a job that mechanic can likely do in under 60 minutes, how is that equitable?

Once again your logic is flawed. You can't compare DIY vs hiring a professional.

I especially would not recommend performing your own medical procedures, no matter what the perceived savings might be

 

[Tom Brown]

Once again your logic is flawed.

No.

You can't compare DIY vs hiring a professional.

Can. Did.

The Doctor has my back on this one.

I'm a decent enough mechanic and pretty solid at the trades but I refuse any argument that involves a professional taking more time than I take. If someone is doing this every day and they can't keep up with me doing it for the first time, they need to find a new occupation.

Now... if a mechanic would have quoted me $400 to change my wheel bearings, I wouldn't have been doing it myself. They could have picked up a couple of hundred dollars for 90 minutes labor. That seems like a reasonable rate. Of course, they will pay way more than I did for the parts and then there is the 40~100% markup they charge so they just can't compete. I might suggest that if I can find a nice price on parts with 5 minutes of surfing, perhaps they could too, but we all know they aren't going out of their way to save anyone anything and that is the core of this entire discussion. Then there is the flat rate time charges....

 

[77charger]

That is hardly a fair representation of reality.

On my last renovation house, the previous owner showed me a quote of $18K for siding, aluminum soffet, facia. My Dad and I did it for around $3K in materials and spent two days doing it. That's $7500 per day for two guys or $3750 per person per day. That is not reasonable.

A few months ago, I changed the rear wheelbearings on my VW at a cost of $130. The parts were genuine VW but came from Portugal via an online discounter. That price includes tax and shipping for both sides. Locally, the parts would have been around $675 for both sides. I was told it would have been on the order of $1100 for the complete job. It took me about 90 minutes and was a pretty simple job. I could do it again in probably 40~45 min. I ordered the complete assembly so it was just a bolt on. Again, that isn't reasonable.

If I have to work for weeks to pay for a job that mechanic can likely do in under 60 minutes, how is that equitable?

become a mechanic

 

[River911]

No.



Can. Did.

The Doctor has my back on this one.

I'm a decent enough mechanic and pretty solid at the trades but I refuse any argument that involves a professional taking more time than I take. If someone is doing this every day and they can't keep up with me doing it for the first time, they need to find a new occupation.

Now... if a mechanic would have quoted me $400 to change my wheel bearings, I wouldn't have been doing it myself. They could have picked up a couple of hundred dollars for 90 minutes labor. That seems like a reasonable rate. Of course, they will pay way more than I did for the parts and then there is the 40~100% markup they charge so they just can't compete. I might suggest that if I can find a nice price on parts with 5 minutes of surfing, perhaps they could too, but we all know they aren't going out of their way to save anyone anything and that is the core of this entire discussion. Then there is the flat rate time charges....

Once again your twisted sense of reality has failed you.

Repeat after me "I am not a professional".

You are a DIY. Any liability you incur as a direct result of amateur repairs to your bearings or brakes rests solely with you. Now if you want to compare apples to apples, installing a stereo or replacing your wiper fluid is probably something you can do equally as well as a professional. And with just as much liability if things go south...zero.

What you're trying to do is impose you're lack of value and disregard for liability on to professional mechanics.

When it comes to jobs with a higher degree of liability, I do not like to work for wages. I don't care what the sign on the wall says. I'm gonna charge a comfortable fee and I'm gonna make sure its worth it for me.

If you don't like it, you are always welcome to patronize another shop

 

[tkrrox]

I agree plus you have overhead that a DIY guy doesn't have. Shop lease tools workmens comp insurance etc. It adds up quick

 

[Mandelon]

98 an hour

25 to the worker
4 to workers comp
1 for liability insurance
taxes
unemployment insurance
building insurance
vehicle insurance
fuel
electricity
rent
tools
safety compliance costs
equipment
phones
internet
advertising
mistakes that eat into whatever profit you do make
replacing stolen stuff
Maybe medical insurance
Maybe retirement contribution

 

[icecreaman]

Rule of thumb in So Cal is 10% of every labor hour goes straight to Workman's Comp. This price doubles and then some if you have a claim that amounts to anything. Ever hear of someone milking a back injury or some other soft tissue damage that's hard to verify. After Workman's comp, the shop owner has to pay Ins for his shop . Garage owners policy with a 2 mil liability bond plus replacement policy for any equipment is easy 3-5 hundred a month. Medical Ins for employee's, Auto ins if there is a shop car or truck, fire and hazmat permits. A shop of any size (4bays or more) will cost you a couple thousand a month or more in rent. Constant tooling updates and up grades (diagnostic software, scanner updates etc,). Service writer, parts chaser, shop gopher, even if this is all one person, still gets paid out of that same shop hour. A decent tech is 25.00 an hour or more. Electric bill to run all the equipment a shop requires, so on, and so on.. and they only get paid when they have cars to work on.

Like any other industry, we all think the owner is making a killing, but I can tell you from first hand knowledge, in this economy many shop owners aren't even pulling a pay check after expenses. They're lucky to break even every month.

Again, these are So Cal numbers. The ones who are making money are the foreiners who higher everybody under the table. Don't mind hiring tweekers, illegals, and alcoholics, pay them cash ands will just close the shop if caught and open a new one a couple blocks down the st.

 

[icecreaman]

Mandelon, looks like you and I are on the same page, you just type faster.

 

[cruzer]

Mandelon, looks like you and I are on the same page, you just type faster.

Mandelon is a profesional, he has to type fast to make a profit...

 

[The Doctor]

I'm with Tom on this one. When you are able and have the time, talent and tools, just do it yourself.

I didn't say the price was unfair, I said if you have the skills, do it yourself. I subcontracted my last six custom homes with my wife. Masonry was my trade but I knew enough to do many others myself and I saved over a hundred grand on the last home doing my own concrete, masonry, roofing, tile, paint, trim carpentry, stained glass, and a dozen other trades. Was that wrong?
I'm the one who can't stand to stare at the grout lines the so-called professionals leave behind so I do it myself where everything lines up and looks right forever. I've learned that some professionals aren't all that professional.
Mechanically, we build everything in house. We build our chassis, design/assemble/dyno all our own power plants, all paint, even have our own F/C molds and build our own carbon fiber bodies from one of five molds we own. We've laid up our last couple boats ourselves, rigged and finished them as well. We also get exactly what we want that way and have nobody but ourselves to blame if something were to not turn out as desired.

I understand many don't have the time or desire to do things themselves but I'm not just saving money, I'm raising my family to become more self sufficient and I really like the results, so far. That won't work for everyone, I understand.

 

[Boozer]

A brake job is about $1100 these days. I can buy all the parts for about $100. I can buy the necessary air tools including the air compreasor to get it done in under 60 minutes for an extra $800, ill have those tools for the rest of my life. The brake shop is calling for 3 hours to do the job because that's what the "book" says.

Hopefully when its time for the next brake job I can find a used lift for under $1000.00.

 

[shintoooo]

98 is cheap

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x2

 

[pronstar]

The 5% of us who do our own labor are a dying breed.

The other 95% of the population doesn't even know how to check their oil, nor do they care to learn. It's a conscious choice to pay a mechanic.

That being said, unless you guys want some home depot laborer fixing your car for as little money as possible, you have to realize skilled labor isn't cheap. A good auto mechanic is definitely skilled labor, and he isn't cheap to employ (nor should he be).

And the sad thing is, a lot of these guys earn half what they used to make not too long ago.

 

[HotRod82]

The 5% of us who do our own labor are a dying breed.

The other 95% of the population doesn't even know how to check their oil, nor do they care to learn. It's a conscious choice to pay a mechanic.

That being said, unless you guys want some home depot laborer fixing your car for as little money as possible, you have to realize skilled labor isn't cheap. A good auto mechanic is definitely skilled labor, and he isn't cheap to employ (nor should he be).

And the sad thing is, a lot of these guys earn half what they used to make not too long ago.

BINGO.....most people can barely tie their shoes. With my old commercial A/C biz I would not get my hands dirty for $200.00 it is a waist of time. I can go down the road and find a customer that will pay more and be happy doing it. Most of my parts I mark up 45%, if you can get it cheaper go for it. My philosophy was always quality invoices not quantity which is exactly opposite of most of my competitors. I don't know how anyone can operate a legitimate service business for less than $225.00/hr.

 

[Guest]

What you're trying to do is impose you're lack of value and disregard for liability on to professional mechanics.

When it comes to jobs with a higher degree of liability, I do not like to work for wages. I don't care what the sign on the wall says. I'm gonna charge a comfortable fee and I'm gonna make sure its worth it for me.

If you don't like it, you are always welcome to patronize another shop

I have had more "Professional" dealership mechanics leave wrenches in my eng compt, leave fasteners off, because they weren't an easy reach, turn my seats and carpet filthy, and break parts they were not even working on than I care to remember...

 

[AZJD]

I am becoming that guy again. Do anything I can myself. I was taught to do all of the services and brakes at a young age on the family vehicles and I'm beginning to do them again. Basic repairs I can handle and am happy to acquire the tools in the process. I don't have the extra money to pay for these things to be done anymore.


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[ace one]

98 an hour

25 to the worker
4 to workers comp
1 for liability insurance
taxes
unemployment insurance
building insurance
vehicle insurance
fuel
electricity
rent
tools
safety compliance costs
equipment
phones
internet
advertising
mistakes that eat into whatever profit you do make
replacing stolen stuff
Maybe medical insurance
Maybe retirement contribution

Your getting pretty close.........
alarm system
book keeper
CPA
water bill
trash pick up
oil and filter disposal
business license (annually)
office supplies
RD T shirts

 

[River911]

I have had more "Professional" dealership mechanics leave wrenches in my eng compt, leave fasteners off, because they weren't an easy reach, turn my seats and carpet filthy, and break parts they were not even working on than I care to remember...

If they were Snap-On tools mums the word

 

[River911]

x2

Do you have any of "those" customers? You know the ones I'm talking about. Never happy unless they're bitching. Always threatening you. Always forget to call you on gravy jobs, but you're the first to get the shit calls. When you take them to lunch they always order 1 of the market priced items and order 1 to go. When everyone else asks for 4 baseball tickets, they ask for 16. They totally believe THEY are your only customer and you should be thanking them for saving your miserable life.

Well for those "special" customers, here's what happens to that $98/hr rate:

Base Rate $98.00/hr
4:30pm Friday adder $20.00/hr
Dick factor adder $20.00/hr
Just because I can adder $25.00/hr
Lunch kitty adder $20.00/hr
Fluff adder $20.00/hr

Final rate: $203.00/hr

Oh YA!

 

[WATERDOG]

Your getting pretty close.........
alarm system
book keeper
CPA
water bill
trash pick up
oil and filter disposal
business license (annually)
office supplies
RD T shirts

Close enough that we can start adding back in all the above that Tax deductible.

 

[WATERDOG]

Do you have any of "those" customers? You know the ones I'm talking about. Never happy unless they're bitching. Always threatening you. Always forget to call you on gravy jobs, but you're the first to get the shit calls. When you take them to lunch they always order 1 of the market priced items and order 1 to go. When everyone else asks for 4 baseball tickets, they ask for 16. They totally believe THEY are your only customer and you should be thanking them for saving your miserable life.

Well for those "special" customers, here's what happens to that $98/hr rate:

Base Rate $98.00/hr
4:30pm Friday adder $20.00/hr
Dick factor adder $20.00/hr
Just because I can adder $25.00/hr
Lunch kitty adder $20.00/hr
Fluff adder $20.00/hr

Final rate: $203.00/hr

Oh YA!

And charging by the Golden Book, do the job in 1/2 the time and your up to only $406 per hour. :skull

 

[Classic Daycruiser]

$98 for an experience good professional?

In the past, mechanic's (with own tools) would get 40% of the shop hourly rate.

The shop would use the the other 60% to cover overhead and profits. Some shops add a disposal fee, which usually runs around $8-15.

If you have one mechanic working for you, it might be tough to support your overhead, but as you add on a few more (4-8 mechanics), 60% now becomes $250-$500 an hour for the shop, to cover shop overhead only. It's usually tight, but occasionally, the shop owner will have a few really good months, to carry them over through the slow months.

A productiive mechanics, can make $45-65 an hour.

 

[lake p.a.l.]

98 an hour

25 to the worker
4 to workers comp
1 for liability insurance
taxes
unemployment insurance
building insurance
vehicle insurance
fuel
electricity
rent
tools
safety compliance costs
equipment
phones
internet
advertising
mistakes that eat into whatever profit you do make
replacing stolen stuff
Maybe medical insurance
Maybe retirement contribution

Dealer bond $3500-5500 per year
Water bill $55-170 per month
Waste management $67 per month
"company" lunch break $80 every two weeks
Shop supplies (grease, cleaning supplies, etc) $215 month
Office supplies $110 month
Employee birthday $30 month
Admin staff $10-20 per hour
I'm sure there is more that I'm forgetting right now.

 

[Nord]

That is hardly a fair representation of reality.

On my last renovation house, the previous owner showed me a quote of $18K for siding, aluminum soffet, facia. My Dad and I did it for around $3K in materials and spent two days doing it. That's $7500 per day for two guys or $3750 per person per day. That is not reasonable.

A few months ago, I changed the rear wheelbearings on my VW at a cost of $130. The parts were genuine VW but came from Portugal via an online discounter. That price includes tax and shipping for both sides. Locally, the parts would have been around $675 for both sides. I was told it would have been on the order of $1100 for the complete job. It took me about 90 minutes and was a pretty simple job. I could do it again in probably 40~45 min. I ordered the complete assembly so it was just a bolt on. Again, that isn't reasonable.

If I have to work for weeks to pay for a job that mechanic can likely do in under 60 minutes, how is that equitable?

Once again your twisted sense of reality has failed you.

Repeat after me "I am not a professional".

You are a DIY. Any liability you incur as a direct result of amateur repairs to your bearings or brakes rests solely with you. Now if you want to compare apples to apples, installing a stereo or replacing your wiper fluid is probably something you can do equally as well as a professional. And with just as much liability if things go south...zero.

What you're trying to do is impose you're lack of value and disregard for liability on to professional mechanics.

When it comes to jobs with a higher degree of liability, I do not like to work for wages. I don't care what the sign on the wall says. I'm gonna charge a comfortable fee and I'm gonna make sure its worth it for me.

If you don't like it, you are always welcome to patronize another shop

98 an hour

25 to the worker
4 to workers comp
1 for liability insurance
taxes
unemployment insurance
building insurance
vehicle insurance
fuel
electricity
rent
tools
safety compliance costs
equipment
phones
internet
advertising
mistakes that eat into whatever profit you do make
replacing stolen stuff
Maybe medical insurance
Maybe retirement contribution

I think we are done here. People forget there is a curve from a business to DIY

 

[River911]

I think we are done here. People forget there is a curve from a business to DIY

The hell we are. We're not even close to having beaten this do death.

5-6 more pages and we'll call it a definite maybe

 

[kilrtoy]

OK so outside of California. What is your bullshit reason for this raping ....

Just changed my bike tire price 125, yet the bills is 280. So that is a bill of 165 for a five minute fix..... yeah shop rates are bullshit

 

[River911]

OK so outside of California. What is your bullshit reason for this raping ....

Just changed my bike tire price 125, yet the bills is 280. So that is a bill of 165 for a five minute fix..... yeah shop rates are bullshit

I'm guessing you are one of "those" customers

 

[kilrtoy]

I'm guessing you are one of "those" customers

Actually I don't care his much they charge and are ripping off. Its YOUR TAX DOLLARS PAYING FOR IT... ENJOY THE ASS RAPING.... do yo care now

 

[River911]

Actually I don't care his much they charge and are ripping off. Its YOUR TAX DOLLARS PAYING FOR IT... ENJOY THE ASS RAPING.... do yo care now

Nope.

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[Riverbound]

OK so outside of California. What is your bullshit reason for this raping ....

Just changed my bike tire price 125, yet the bills is 280. So that is a bill of 165 for a five minute fix..... yeah shop rates are bullshit

I have changed a rear tire before on a bike. And it was much more than 5 mins. Don't they have to balance the tire too? Like was posted earlier the tools one invests do don't her job are a considerable investment. We charged $45 labor flat rate to do a radio install. Some cars were quick and some were more difficult. What people fail to realize is the fact that I had over $20k invested in tools to do my job as fast as I could. The same goes for mechanics.

 

[River911]

It'll probably take 6 months to get paid lol

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[pronstar]

I don't see how this is different from other aspects of life.
We pay for convenience, and other people's knowledge, everyday.

Why not argue that the grocery store rapes us over fruits and veggies that we can grow ourselves for free?

 

[db71]

I used to fix everything I had to save money but I got sick of kicking my own ass when it fucked up. You are paying to have someone to bitch at when the shit goes wrong.

On the home improvement thing if that guy has his house 20 years he would wish he negotiated better with the 17,000 guy who was probably selling top of the line siding and backing it with a installation warranty if his shit blows off in 3 years and again in 4 and 5 will you go fix it every time.

Bottom line you get what you pay four 99% of the time unless your buying stocks.

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Don't forget the lucky small business owners like myself get to shell out all the money to fix the vehicles on the front end and we are stuck waiting 30 or 60 or sometimes 90 days to get paid by our "best" customers! If we get paid at all in some cases. I love what I do but it isn't as easy as some people think it is. I would hate to REALLY figure out what I personally make hourly, since most customers don't give a shit about my time!

 

[db71]

The tax dollar thing killed with tires to even better. Some of us sell tires because we realize the only time customers can buy the m is with there tax refund this is why my old business boomed feb march and april.

Shit I actually rented to own a bitch a set wheels and tires in march she came back in June and was bitching about the tires wore funny and it was my fault (she was broke and the tires were shot). She called the cops and said we sold her bad tires because the tire store down the road said they were bad anyway the cops laughed there ass off. Fuckinv people will do anything to save a buck.

 

[BIG JOHNSON]

As small business owner selling and installing windows, m/u on windows is always 25-30% if I can even get away with that and $125 a hole on install. Since I've started, my rates have remained the same and I've watched all materials double and triple. Let's not talk about fuel.

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[lake p.a.l.]

I was told by a customer today who is worth millions that I need to replace the windshield on their cart for FREE because it is broken. I explained they bought the cart from me 15 months ago, they have a 2 year warranty, but that warranty doesn't cover him or his wife hitting something, destroying the rim/tire, front cowl, & windshield. He thinks it is my fault the windshield wasn't built better and should withstand whatever that impact was!

 

[River911]

Don't forget the lucky small business owners like myself get to shell out all the money to fix the vehicles on the front end and we are stuck waiting 30 or 60 or sometimes 90 days to get paid by our "best" customers! If we get paid at all in some cases. I love what I do but it isn't as easy as some people think it is. I would hate to REALLY figure out what I personally make hourly, since most customers don't give a shit about my time!

If you love what you do you should drop your rates at least 90-95%. Brown can do a complete brake job for $49.99 including new rotors and pads. He completely overhauled his VW for $6.99

 

[db71]

Windows I was a partner in a cheap window company we did millions in sales but found out it was not sustainable. I sold out before the crash and went to work for a 1000 a window company one is still there one is not. The cheap company we paid 40 a hole wood windows +10 for metal and +10 for capping. The other company $125 a hole period.

Oh but the cheap window company had a lifetime warranty. It's lifetime was 4 years. The other one a 1 year warranty on installation.

Once again 99% of the time you get what you pay four.

 

[ace one]

I don't know how most shops work but I don't work with blinders on...if I see a screw that needs to be tightened or one missing I fix it....carpet gets a quick vacuum after the service and if I see a grease spot that we did not do I clean it ....trailer wheels and tires get a good cleaning and hubs lubed, tires aired up....trailer lights checked, these items are included in your basic service (we are talking boats here) I guess that I could not do any of those things but the customers notice the extra effort. I guess if you are busy you could get a bit more for what you do. I was told by a good friend of mine in the same business for over the past 30 years "If the customers are not complaining about the bill you are not charging enough"