VW may settle, $5k cash paid to owners of TDi models

[OCMerrill]

I've been reading all the posts and want everyone to know that the Government of CA is FAR WORSE on shit like this than anyone can imagine. Any federal EPA plan on these cars makes little to no difference here. I've seen it. The talk on this has been hush and I don't like hush.

CA can and will force you from your vehicle. They are forcing me from my box trucks originally sold new here in CA new in 99 and 2000 just because "They have changed the rules." They could give a fuck about my problems and CA hates diesels historically.

So I am not buying anything said when it comes to CA. They can change their minds about these cars, CARB will rule, and people suffer financially. Regardless of what the Feds decide to do which I suspect will be a hefty fine, some modification, and thats it. None of which will fly in CA.

 

[Willie B]

... i still have a couple of old Mercedes five cylinder diesel's and a dodge ram 12 valve diesel pickup... I bet these cars as they have no smog equipment emit a ton more than the modified VW stuff...

 

[pronstar]

I don't see why. When hooked to the smog machines, it actually did pass. Just when you unhooked it from the machines, it went to efficiency mode.

EPA emission cycle is low-load, low-speed. It's not really representative of real-world driving.

Turbo cars (diesel and gas) really don't make much boost, if any at all, during this testing.

 

[sirbob]

I've been reading all the posts and want everyone to know that the Government of CA is FAR WORSE on shit like this than anyone can imagine. Any federal EPA plan on these cars makes little to no difference here. I've seen it. The talk on this has been hush and I don't like hush.

CA can and will force you from your vehicle. They are forcing me from my box trucks originally sold new here in CA new in 99 and 2000 just because "They have changed the rules." They could give a fuck about my problems and CA hates diesels historically.

So I am not buying anything said when it comes to CA. They can change their minds about these cars, CARB will rule, and people suffer financially. Regardless of what the Feds decide to do which I suspect will be a hefty fine, some modification, and thats it. None of which will fly in CA.

You might want to moth ball those trucks and bring them back after they are 25 years old - I seem to recall you don't have to follow current smogs regs then ??

 

[OLDRAAT]

Willie,

I have not had the Q7 independently checked and also since there are no smog stations (yet) in Oklahoma I may have a little leeway. It does not seem to emit any noticeable smoke, etc , I warmed it and stalled on it the converter and my observer said nothing was noted, so it's probably less than my duramax with the tune off.
I do understand their dishonesty in this whole process, but I believe it has been determined that the cars meet most of the global emission requirements. I used to have a 300 TD Merc in the 80's and it would have made the "coaler truck boys" jealous.

Gotta admit, those engineers were pretty crafty. I would bet there are more auto manufacturers around that have skeletons in the closet also.

OR

 

[OCMerrill]

You might want to moth ball those trucks and bring them back after they are 25 years old - I seem to recall you don't have to follow current smogs regs then ??

1998 is the smog cutoff on Diesels under 14000 gvwr. Over 14000 if you don't have a 2010 model year engine installed or have whatever CARB approved retro fit bullshit installed you can no longer register in 2018. They are not allowed on the streets in 2018.

Neat stuff.

 

[max930]

You might want to moth ball those trucks and bring them back after they are 25 years old - I seem to recall you don't have to follow current smogs regs then ??

That's federal and bringing cars into the U.S. 25 years or older no longer need to meet DOT and EPA. States have rules, but most follow the fed rules. Hence you'll see cars sold as 48 state compliant. California its cars made before 1974 no longer need to comply. A few big car collectors will form an LLC and get a dealer license, just for dealer plates. Technically federal should trump state law, but the feds gave the states the right to make their own registration rules. Like under the 25 or older rule you could bring in a right hand drive car from Europe or Asia. But a few states won't register them.

 

[rivermobster]

We have two 2013 TDI's one Jetta and one Passat, both are great cars, Passat has 43k on it and it has averaged 46-50mpg and it rides as smooth as anyone could ask for on long trips and performs great in the city as well, the jetta is smaller and more sportier and handles a bit sharper but I have only driven it under 6k miles because of extra cars. I don't give a crap about the 5K and I will NEVER Lawyer up to get more money from VW, I hate it when people chase big money taking advantage of anyone or any company unless they really wronged them....Would I would take the 5k if they offer it, HELL YES....Would i join a class action suit to go after that or more money NO WAY IN HELL....WHY? because that is not how I was raised. If they wronged me then fine take action but I feel their cheat was justified because our EPA is nothing but a bunch of gov fools and nazi's...I love the great MPG and if anyone thinks the cars are causing way to much pollution then I guess they don't own boats, off roaders, diesels or any modified cars...I am extremely happy with both cars and would buy another 2 with the same bypass software down the road...they are in such demand when I went to the dealer the other day they were clammering that I sell it to them....I said NOT YET

They will never be worthless as some think.....Once sold to the public they will not recall everyone and pull them from the road for good...Either VW will be giving a nice compensation package to the owners and creating a fix (can easily be done just taking time) and moving on or they will be buying back the vehicles and adjusting for mileage.....

X1000

 

[SBMech]

It's not going to be an easy fix.

They are emitting 40x the amount they are supposed to. That is alot to clean up. Which is why there is no fix yet.

If they can't make them compliant, you may love them, but you won't be able to have one in CA.....

 

[RiverDave]

So what's stupid about the whole thing is it defeats the smog test.. But is getting 40mpg in real world conditions so it's a great economy car and getting better mpg then 99% of the cars on the road.. Which is good for the environment. But because it didn't pass some test it is all of a sudden bad for the environment?

 

[RiverDave]

All the dealerships had to turn their inventory back in. There are no new ones anywhere to be found.

There are some used ones online here and there, but they are few and far between.

Most people won't give them up!

Sucks to read here there are people already lawyer'd up. Every one is suit happy these days. The lawyers are as happy as pigs in shit over this.

God is good, beer is great...

Everyone always looking for a hand out.. Lol.

 

[OCMerrill]

It's not going to be an easy fix.

They are emitting 40x the amount they are supposed to. That is alot to clean up. Which is why there is no fix yet.

If they can't make them compliant, you may love them, but you won't be able to have one in CA.....

Bingo. I can see it now....CA fines VW for millions, tell owners that their cars have to leave the state immediately and that's it. Those that say CA would never do that to me? Don't worry you can ride a free unicorn rental to work everyday. CA then spends money on the non working and a bullet train. Browns $$ eyes are just spinning with joy.

Who knows but all the clean idle stickers on big trucks, I can foresee that coming into play for cars and light trucks soon. It may not say clean idle but something along those lines.

 

[pronstar]

I do understand their dishonesty in this whole process, but I believe it has been determined that the cars meet most of the global emission requirements.

Actually, this is a global problem, they were caught cheating the emissions in all markets.
We're (RDP) only focused on the US aspect of it...every other country that these cars are sold, are also crafting punishments for VW.
It's an especially real problem in Germany, because the government of Lower Saxony owns 20% of VW.

So what's stupid about the whole thing is it defeats the smog test.. But is getting 40mpg in real world conditions so it's a great economy car and getting better mpg then 99% of the cars on the road.. Which is good for the environment. But because it didn't pass some test it is all of a sudden bad for the environment?

These rules are all crazy.
They focus on specific emissions, and if it takes twice the fuel to burn measured particulates (as an example) then that's seen as acceptable.
That's precisely what happens in a diesel particulate trap...they burn more diesel to clean up the emissions of the diesel that you just burned.

 

[rivermobster]

So what's stupid about the whole thing is it defeats the smog test.. But is getting 40mpg in real world conditions so it's a great economy car and getting better mpg then 99% of the cars on the road.. Which is good for the environment. But because it didn't pass some test it is all of a sudden bad for the environment?

RD cuts straight to the heart of the matter.

The whole thing is a total crock of shit. A money grab to end all money grabs! LoL

I think the punishment aspect is due to the fact they got away with it, and for years at that!

The car really is far better for the environment than almost all the other cars out there.

Idiots abound...

 

[SBMech]

So what's stupid about the whole thing is it defeats the smog test.. But is getting 40mpg in real world conditions so it's a great economy car and getting better mpg then 99% of the cars on the road.. Which is good for the environment. But because it didn't pass some test it is all of a sudden bad for the environment?

Actually it's not just "some test", it's a measurement of the exhaust emissions, stuff like oxides of nitrogen are far more harmful to the environment than wasted fuel or economy going out the tailpipe in the form of unburned hydrocarbons etc.

This is actually the real issue in point RD, they do NOT perform or get the economy they are providing when they are emitting the amount of exhaust gasses they were registered to with the EPA.

When repaired properly it's estimated they will loose 15-20% of their power and economy.

It's a much bigger deal than it appears on the surface. Here's a brief explaination about emissions for the curious: https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/env_effect.php

 

[RiverDave]

Actually it's not just "some test", it's a measurement of the exhaust emissions, stuff like oxides of nitrogen are far more harmful to the environment than wasted fuel or economy going out the tailpipe in the form of unburned hydrocarbons etc.

This is actually the real issue in point RD, they do NOT perform or get the economy they are providing when they are emitting the amount of exhaust gasses they were registered to with the EPA.

When repaired properly it's estimated they will loose 15-20% of their power and economy.

It's a much bigger deal than it appears on the surface. Here's a brief explaination about emissions for the curious: https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/env_effect.php

I'm willing to wager even with the "pollution" none of these things have shit on my caddy I'm driving right now.. Lol. And Cadillac isn't paying me 5k.

My point was to say compared to 95% of the vehicles on the road they are more environmentally friendly. By a lot.

 

[Constant840]

Actually it's not just "some test", it's a measurement of the exhaust emissions, stuff like oxides of nitrogen are far more harmful to the environment than wasted fuel or economy going out the tailpipe in the form of unburned hydrocarbons etc.

This is actually the real issue in point RD, they do NOT perform or get the economy they are providing when they are emitting the amount of exhaust gasses they were registered to with the EPA.

When repaired properly it's estimated they will loose 15-20% of their power and economy.

It's a much bigger deal than it appears on the surface. Here's a brief explaination about emissions for the curious: https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/env_effect.php

For 115hp and 30mpg... I could have had a Kia for $5k less...

I'm curious what the actual fixes are supposed to be. I'm sure the 2.0 will require new and or additional hardware as well as software... what about the 3.0 that already has urea injection?

 

[pronstar]

At the 10,000-foot level, here's the view:
Globally, we are moving away from burning things in our cars as a means to power them.

We may or may not agree with the social engineering / market forces that are moving us in that direction, and it will take a LONG time, but there's really no denying that this isn't happening.

Some projections put the tipping point around 2025, when battery EV's won't have a price premium compared to gas...we'll see how things pan out.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Brian,

Not living in California, maybe I will have some time before doom and gloom.

OR

Aren't most emissions Fed now?

 

[SBMech]

I'm willing to wager even with the "pollution" none of these things have shit on my caddy I'm driving right now.. Lol. And Cadillac isn't paying me 5k.

My point was to say compared to 95% of the vehicles on the road they are more environmentally friendly. By a lot.

They are putting out approx 10x the emissions of your Caddy......

That's why VW is in such deep shit.

 

[wsuwrhr]

They are putting out approx 10x the emissions of your Caddy......

That's why VW is in such deep shit.

Yep, they make awesome power with shitty, crude, fuel and they run a half speed, but, diesels are much dirtier than gas engines.

 

[mjc]

They are putting out approx 10x the emissions of your Caddy......

That's why VW is in such deep shit.

I believe only NoX is bad on them which is a diesel problem

 

[OLDRAAT]

Brian,

Not to the level of you folks. We used to have 'smog checks/safety checks' but that has long passed. All they did was check to make sure emission equipment was still in place and not tampered with, etc..etc. It was a joke just to get your money. No roller tables or sniffers at all like your stations.
It was just a superficial check even on later model smog cars. They would never know if there were bb's in the vac lines or other adjustments made.

We do have regulations for air quality and smog in the summer and use the summer blend fuels. Sometimes the readings are high but winds and other factors average it out. It probably will get tighter in the future but for now we're not in their gunsights.

Have a good weekend, enjoying your stories with Carl's old boat. Hope it works out good for you.

OR

 

[wsuwrhr]

I believe only NoX is bad on them which is a diesel problem

NoX is a by-product of high combustion temps, period. Not really a diesel specific problem, but certainly a problem for diesels since they operate using radical combustion.

 

[530RL]

I think Dave's point was that these vehicles are allowed to spew out 70 milligrams per mile of NOx whereas the average in-use rate for the US fleet is around 693 milligrams per mile and a heavy duty truck spews out 8.4 grams per mile. His Caddy is allowed to legally spew out a lot more pollution than a little Jetta per mile.

The government believes that these "eco" diesels "can" spew out 10 to 40 times the allowed amount of 70 milligrams per mile, but there are driving conditions when they are in compliance and driving conditions when they are out, so even at 10 times the pollution allowed, they are at roughly the average in-use pollution numbers for the existing US fleet per mile.

With respect to repairs of software versus hardware, this is a world wide problem and some remedies have been approved by foreign authorities. Here is a cut and paste of the requirements by engine type in some European jurisdictions.

"While more details about its recall plan in the U.S. may still be forthcoming, VW did sketch out how it plans to fix affected TDI models in Europe. Throughout 2016, 2.0 liter TDI (January), 1.2 liter TDI (second quarter), and 1.6 TDI (third quarter) models will be recalled and fixed, according to VW. The 1.6 TDI model is the only one that needs a hardware fix in addition to software modifications."

 

[SBMech]

I think Dave's point was that these vehicles are allowed to spew out 70 milligrams per mile of NoX whereas the average in-use rate for the US fleet is around 693 milligrams per mile and a heavy duty truck spews out 8.4 grams per mile. His Caddy is allowed to legally spew out a lot more pollution than a little Jetta per mile.

The government believes that these "eco" diesels "can" spew out 10 to 40 times the allowed amount of 70 milligrams per mile, but there are driving conditions when they are in compliance and driving conditions when they are out, so even at 10 times the pollution allowed, they are at roughly the average in-use pollution numbers for the existing US fleet per mile.

With respect to repairs of software versus hardware, this is a world wide problem and some remedies have been approved by foreign authorities. Here is a cut and paste of the requirements by engine type.

"While more details about its recall plan in the U.S. may still be forthcoming, VW did sketch out how it plans to fix affected TDI models in Europe. Throughout 2016, 2.0 liter TDI (January), 1.2 liter TDI (second quarter), and 1.6 TDI (third quarter) models will be recalled and fixed, according to VW. The 1.6 TDI model is the only one that needs a hardware fix in addition to software modifications."

70 x 40 = 2800

They are producing 40x their stated EPA values. They are emitting 2.8 grams of pollutants, in line with a heavy truck. NoX in CA for his caddy is the same, 0.7. Fed is different than Kalifornistan.

The repairs in EU are not accepted in the US or in CA because their standards are different, and they are allowing some leeway. EPA is pissed and VW is getting hit with suits from the FTC for false advertising in addition to the fines coming from the EPA for operating them for several years while polluting.

 

[Willie B]

Willie,

I have not had the Q7 independently checked and also since there are no smog stations (yet) in Oklahoma I may have a little leeway. It does not seem to emit any noticeable smoke, etc , I warmed it and stalled on it the converter and my observer said nothing was noted, so it's probably less than my duramax with the tune off.
I do understand their dishonesty in this whole process, but I believe it has been determined that the cars meet most of the global emission requirements. I used to have a 300 TD Merc in the 80's and it would have made the "coaler truck boys" jealous.

Gotta admit, those engineers were pretty crafty. I would bet there are more auto manufacturers around that have skeletons in the closet also.

OR

... I bought my 12 valve diesel Ram when I lived in Harrah Oklahoma...fortunately it's a 97 so it is not smogged here in California...I took the cat off of it which is still sitting on my front porch ...when I was in Ok a lot of the guys just went to straight through exhaust...out in the farmlands there were some pretty noisy ass trucks...

... Over the years I have thought about making one of my five cylinder Mercedes 300SD's a hot rod...but i'm not sure what exactly I would do to make some HP???...

... Other auto manufacturers being deceitful,...naw???...couldn't happen...

 

[Constant840]

Preliminary settlement benefits here:
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e.../Exibit 6 - Estimated Settlement Benefits.pdf

Seems ok I guess. Having a hard time finding past NADA values.

 

[rivermobster]

Can't wait to get my cash...

So I can send it out to be programed, and spew out even more HP, mileage and NOX! :thumbsup:thumbsup

 

[SBMech]

7k with a proposed fix is decent. I don't know about the fix though, if it was a simple thing, it'd be in the pipe already....:headscratch:

Edit: whoops...did not read the whole thing before I hit reply, the buyback seems weak as shit, I'm thinking they are fucked since most people will want ALL their money back for false advertising....

This will just drag on until the EPA slaps them hard or a class action suit hits.

 

[mjc]

If I read it right the buy back on mine is more than I paid for it, 27k

 

[Racey]

It sounds good but real the question is will they pass an emissions test without the cheating software?

If not the cars are worthless....

Yeah they'll just make less power and get worse mileage....

 

[Constant840]

If I read it right the buy back on mine is more than I paid for it, 27k

That is the buyback with compensation.


VW came up with a flash for the 2.0 late last year. I suppose it just turned the cheat program off. It went out as a recall in April or something. I just got my notice of incomplete registration due to emission recall. The referenced recall is directly related to the flash from earlier this year.
The fix with compensation option is contingent on CARB and EPA approval. I could easily see them never approving a fix, thus forcing owners to sell the car back. Eventually registration would be denied and you wouldn't have a choice.

 

[mjc]

That is the buyback with compensation.


VW came up with a flash for the 2.0 late last year. I suppose it just turned the cheat program off. It went out as a recall in April or something. I just got my notice of incomplete registration due to emission recall. The referenced recall is directly related to the flash from earlier this year.
The fix with compensation option is contingent on CARB and EPA approval. I could easily see them never approving a fix, thus forcing owners to sell the car back. Eventually registration would be denied and you wouldn't have a choice.

Az registration on it then. It is the only car I don't have registered there now. F Ca and their smog checks

 

[rivermobster]

I'm curious...

Is 40x what a 1.6L engine puts out...

Anywhere close to what my 7.3 puts out?? When driving the same distance??

My 7.3 gets about 12mpg.

My TDI gets 40-50mpg.

So if I make a run to the river and back, which is roughly 400 miles for me, which one spews more pollution??

:rolleyes :skull

Hey EPA...

:finger

 

[Constant840]

Your truck is next...

Ha.

 

[pronstar]

That is the buyback with compensation.


VW came up with a flash for the 2.0 late last year. I suppose it just turned the cheat program off. It went out as a recall in April or something. I just got my notice of incomplete registration due to emission recall. The referenced recall is directly related to the flash from earlier this year.
The fix with compensation option is contingent on CARB and EPA approval. I could easily see them never approving a fix, thus forcing owners to sell the car back. Eventually registration would be denied and you wouldn't have a choice.

Eliminating the cheat in software only works on the EPA test cycle, but these cars are under increased scrutiny, and they don't pass.

Keep in mind that VW was the only carmaker who claimed to be able to make a 2L (and smaller) diesel meet emission regs without SCR and particulate traps.
No other carmaker was able to make this work...and neither was VW, apparently.

VW's absolute last resort is adding SCR and particulate traps to these car, as it would be massively expensive for both the hardware and the labor to install it on a half-million of cars.
This is why they're still meeting with CARB and the EPA on solutions for how to actually fix these cars.

Also, the current settlement doesn't include any punitive penalties that will surely be placed on VW.

I'm curious...

Is 40x what a 1.6L engine puts out...

Anywhere close to what my 7.3 puts out?? When driving the same distance??

My 7.3 gets about 12mpg.

My TDI gets 40-50mpg.

So if I make a run to the river and back, which is roughly 400 miles for me, which one spews more pollution??

:rolleyes :skull

Hey EPA...

:finger

They're idiots.
They trade measured emissions, for emissions that aren't measured.

So they burn diesel, then burn more diesel to make the diesel they just burned emit less measured emissions.
It makes no sense to anyone but an unelected CARB official.

 

[rivermobster]

They're idiots.
They trade measured emissions, for emissions that aren't measured.

So they burn diesel, then burn more diesel to make the diesel they just burned emit less measured emissions.
It makes no sense to anyone but an unelected CARB official.

Yes sir. Well said.

The whole thing was a money grab, on both sides of the fence!

My son drove the Jetta up to Silverwood yesterday. When he got home, he said...

Dad, I love how that car drives! When you put it in sport mode, to keep it what gear you want it in, it's so awesome on the mountain roads! I'm so happy you bought that car.

Me too son, me too...

I love my worthless car. :thumbsup

 

[Yellowboat]

Eliminating the cheat in software only works on the EPA test cycle, but these cars are under increased scrutiny, and they don't pass.

Keep in mind that VW was the only carmaker who claimed to be able to make a 2L (and smaller) diesel meet emission regs without SCR and particulate traps.
No other carmaker was able to make this work...and neither was VW, apparently.

VW's absolute last resort is adding SCR and particulate traps to these car, as it would be massively expensive for both the hardware and the labor to install it on a half-million of cars.
This is why they're still meeting with CARB and the EPA on solutions for how to actually fix these cars.

Also, the current settlement doesn't include any punitive penalties that will surely be placed on VW.






They're idiots.
They trade measured emissions, for emissions that aren't measured.

So they burn diesel, then burn more diesel to make the diesel they just burned emit less measured emissions.
It makes no sense to anyone but an unelected CARB official.

my 84 ford bronco got 30% better fuel milege when I would disconnect the egr system. it ran better in every way. when I took off the cats( they clogged, punched them out) I got another 10% boost and a noticeable power boost and it sounded so much better as well.

I miss that truck.

 

[Racey]

They're idiots.
They trade measured emissions, for emissions that aren't measured.

So they burn diesel, then burn more diesel to make the diesel they just burned emit less measured emissions.
It makes no sense to anyone but an unelected CARB official.

That is the Crux of the issue. :thumbsup

Sad what kind of power we've given to bureaucrats.

 

[spectra3279]

That is the Crux of the issue. :thumbsup

Sad what kind of power we've given to bureaucrats.

Imsorry. But they have taken it. It was never given to them. And unelected officials should not be making laws

 

[Weekend Therapy]

Anybody heard anything else on this? News release says EPA approved the proposed fix for both 3.0 gen 2.1 and 2.2 for the Toureg, Cayenne and Q7, but it doesn't list the Q5. Wife has the Q5 TDI and I was curious why they didn't include it in the approval.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-10/documents/3l-gen-2-1-2-2-suv-approval-epa-carb.pdf

 

[PaPaG]

Turned in both our 2013 passat and jetta....paid 52k for both cash got paid 350 per car from bosh and 53k from VW after 3 years and 50k miles on the passat and 16k on the jetta..both cars were great, 50+mpg but who would turn down driving 2 cars for free for 3 years and getting paid more for the cars than when you bought them....our local dealer is now selling used diesels again with a supposed fix date...what a joke this entire thing was...well except for my bank account....that part was very nice....Would I buy another Passat TDI again? Hell yes once I see how much mpg and power is taken away with the fix...great car, very comfortable and nothing beat its 50mpg mileage, sufficient power and nice comfort combo for long haul drives...jmo...

 

[pronstar]

Here's where some of that VW money is going.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-cheating-penalty-to-help-build-emissions-lab

CA is building a vehicle emissions lab that's significantly larger than the EPA's own lab, and the EPA tests other things besides cars.

VW fines are paying for 1/3 of it. Californians get to pay for the remaining $300 million of it LMAO

Mary Nichols and CARB are the definition of bureaucracy running amok. She spends tax money like a drunken sailor drinks rum, and she's not even an elected official.

But the supermajority loves 'em [emoji106]

 

[TPC]

One of the auto rags tested the bootleg VW diesels against the legal and the performance and MPG barely moved up on the legal version.
They couldn't see why VW did it.