Two people hurt jumping from Topock bridge.

[Cray Paper]

As an employee of BNSF and working the territory that that bridge covers I will state that there are numerous no trespassing signs all along the right away for the whole territory, as well there are 5 signs on that bridge per direction on both tracks.
You cannot put a fence around the railroad just like you cannot fix stupid, however about 15 years ago they put up railing as pertinence of a fence along the bridge to enact as a fence along the bridge. They also cannot block those ladders as those ladders are not meant to be a way up, but a way down incase of an emergency to train crew members like myself, in situation of immediate threat or derailment.
Yes a sign is not as strong-holding as an actual fence but those signs as well I do believe they are stencil spray painted on the uprights and across the physical bridge "NO TRASPASSING BNSF PROPERTY" will eliviate them from a suit against them. However sadly most the time the railroads will make settlement with trespassers that are injured as to stop an issue with a suit.

But that being said the rail industry has changed a lot in recent past and I see them countering any claim with a suit of their own, and you gotta have some seriously deep pockets to go against any Class 1 railroad specially one owned by one of the biggest corporate conglomerates as BNSF owned by Berkshire Hathaway!

Sad for the girl injured in the boat as well all who partook in the rescue and viewing of an absolute moron thinking it's cool to jump off a 20+ foot bridge into 8-10' deep water if that. I'll tell you this the water looks very shallow from my angle going over it!!



Oh and FYI all of us working this subdivision of rail are sad when we honk at boaters we aren't looking for you to wave your hands we are waiting desperately seeking tits, yes big small medium any size just looking for a nice flesh flash to make our day oh so much better! Thanks 

I haven't read past your post, but the excuse you present is just that. This excuse doesn't hold water for ANY General Contractor securing a construction site. The only thing BNSF has going for it is decades of federal law protecting itself from abiding by laws every other entity has too. Money well spent, but a good lawyer will strike pay dirt and a new policy will be made, just watch how this plays out. I am on a project now that involves BNSF and have started the dialogue with putting a tower crane near rail lines that are on the project owners property, leased to another entity but BNSF run on them. If I understand correctly, if the end of the jib is within 50' we have to hire BNSF people to watch the tracks as well as pay a mitigation fee. Same goes for any equipment that has a potential to fall within 25' of the tracks, like a track hoe digging in a public right away. Dealing with BNSF is a one way street, laced with red tape.

 

[Cray Paper]

Ours was never blown up, but I know there was a whole host of mail boxes over the years that suffered the fate.

RD

Just an FYI to blowing up mailboxes, it's a felony and doesn't drop off your record even if you are under 18 YO when you get caught. I know this for a fact, wasn't me but my 1 year younger brother got nabbed doing it. He tried to enlist in the Air Force in 1989 but they wouldn't take him because of his felony conviction. The Navy said "hell yea, your just the kinda guy we want!".

I bet the military wouldn't have taken him today.

 

[Cray Paper]

BasilHayden,

I wanted to reply to the second part of your comment-

"Please spend a month dealing only with complete morons, not families just trying to have a nice day on the lake. Instead of DUI inspections, sorry "safety checks", pull over the idiot running 20 through Thompson bay, or the jet ski who just has to jump the wake in front of us, or even an idiot running the river at 120 who intentionally roosted the kayak (btw my guess is you won't find too many of those). Every one of us, including you I am sure, has been affected by these idiots every time we hit the water. The safety checks are not making the impact you are looking for. That safety check should be accomplished at the launch ramp and used as education not enforcement. The idiots, lets try enforcement there."

The trick for law enforcement is really finding these folks. Sure I see outrageously stupid boat operation on a regular basis, but there is far more that I do not see. Believe it or not, people drive and operate boats differently when they know a cop is watching and I see far more when I'm driving my personal vehicle than when I'm in a marked patrol car or boat. Furthermore, the very lack of speed limits, red lights, and double yellow lines makes detection of offenses like impaired operation of a boat far harder than impaired driving on the highway. We assist Arizona Game and Fish in 2-3 of their OUI checkpoints each year. My perception is that these are not money makers (they're hugely expensive and my agency at least does not make a penny on its citations or arrests). What they are is NEWSWORTHY and that means free advertising of the law and penalties. That's what every agency wants. Personally I think investing that same money in routine patrol would be better (and I have the same criticism of the SB sheriffs helo flying up and down the river), but AZGFD likes them and I'm just glad to have them on the water with us. So back to targeted stops, if I know that say 1 in 20 boaters is impaired at above .08 BAC ( the ratio was significantly higher at the last checkpoint) but I can't just stop folks for speeding, how do we find them? Well, we run the river looking for bow riding, looking for people running on the wrong side of the river, looking for people who aren't using lights after dark- because there is a higher prob that if you're drunk you will also do those things. But we also sit in no wake zones and look for boats ploughing through the water or displaying old registration stickers. Even a non safety violation gives us the probable cause we need (outside the very specific rules of a checkpoint) to make a stop. Do I care if you forgot to change your decal? No, not really- but once we come alongside I'm listening for slurred speech and watching your balance and smelling for alcohol. Every stop we make out there on the water (except hunting/fishing license checks) is an effort to find another drunk and take him off the water before he kills somebody. OUI and reckless operation is the whole point of our summer patrol. The law abiding family with a designated driver and all of the required safety equipment is inconvenienced for about five minutes and probably gets a verbal warning on the expired decal. This is how traffic enforcement works on both land and water for most agencies. The idiots you spoke of are exactly who we're targeting, we just need tools like this to increase our odds of finding them even when they are trying to hide from us. Thx.

Your department should talk to the Seattle police department, King County Sheriffs department and Coast Guard in Seattle. They all work together to canvas Lake Washington during the summer. Most weekends the Coast Guard stations people at the launch ramps and they check the boats that are just launched. Registration stickers as well as paper copy, life vests, throw able, horn, BOATING OPERATOR LISCENSE etc. If they see lots of coolers they tell the operator that the Sheriffs department will be monitoring the ramp in the afternoon, and the Sheriffs department does. They are standing on the end of each dock looking for drunks. Seattle Police have boats and patrol the lake looking for drunks, dipshits etc.

I appreciate this approach. I know it's going to happen so we pull out all the required items and put them in clear line of site, the horn, extinguisher, vests, toss able flotation device and my OPERATORS LISCENSE and registration on the dash in a zip lock bag. The coast guard doesn't have to step foot on my boat before we take off. It's all there and in my experience, have never been hassled or even stopped while boating.

Seems that pulling people over on the water with check points is very intrusive, it would be to me. Sounds like law enforcement agencies need to adjust their approach in AZ?

 

[Reddy Too]

I would be very upset if it happened to me. And I suppose we could theorize all day long about the future ramifications of that if I were in the situation.. but rest assured the words "lock him up" wouldn't ever come out of my mouth.. That I can guarantee.

I never insinuated to "lock him up". I just hope he is mature enough to except personal responsibility for his actions and not look to others to cast blame.

 

[Reddy Too]

Trust me I know all about being accountable for my actions. You're barking up the wrong tree

One last thing, Vicious everyone knows you are a drunk. You do not have to remind everyone all the time.

 

[AzGeo]

This '20 something', made an effort to exercise his 'rights', no matter what legal or social objects were in his way .
He expected everything to go 'as planned', and even IF they did, he still broke a number of laws, and could have put others in danger .

Unfortunately his plan ran into a problem, and others became involved in his 'illegal activities' .

One person 'acted out an event', there is no one else at fault here .

This was not a 'child's mistake', this is an 'adult's selfish actions', that brought on much more devastation than the idiot even considered .

First being on the RR bridge (posted trespass) and then jumping into a navigable waterway, causing a 'hazard to navigation', are two of the laws he should be accountable for . But the real accident is when his fall 'accidentally struck the girl and the boat', and for his 'lack of forethought', he is totally liable .

As far as this being; 'just a crazy stunt', I say BS . If a 10 year old did this it would be a 'stupid inexperienced kid mistake', but an 18- 20 year old doing this shit just shows me he is no smarter nor wiser than a 10 year old .

The video shows that he is liable for the whole mess, OOOOHHHH he is going to pay ........

I pray for the girl and the others who were involved .

 

[78Southwind]

X2 hell if it wasn't a no wake zone the kid never would have thought about jumping from there into boat traffic. I think this falls on law enforcement. Lol

The crazy thing is that I had never seen jumpers from the bridge until the no wake zone was implemented.

 

[BHC Vic]

One last thing, Vicious everyone knows you are a drunk. You do not have to remind everyone all the time.

Lol and now everyone knows you're an idiot [emoji41] I think you have to drink to be drunk [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[82daytona]

Lol and now everyone knows you're an idiot [emoji41] I think you have to drink to be drunk [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

You drunk!

 

[BHC Vic]

You drunk!

Gotta take my drunk ass to work. Gonna be late! [emoji12]

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Really have to agree with dave, a terrible thing happened, but no one knows a thing about the jumper. For all we know hes an eagle scout and all around great guy. He also may be a douchbag, but only time will tell and drawing and quartering him before hand really serves no purpose.

Unless he was escaping a zombie mob, no reasonable person would approve of his actions. I don't care if he was an eagle scout or not.

Twisting it around because a person did something in the throws of youth and got away with it still doesn't make the act right.

 

[jetboatperformance]

person intentionally trespasses on someone's property,wrong and illegal .... person intentionally jumps off a structure where he trespassed, wrong, illegal (and not real smart) ..... person's intentional irresponsible actions get him injured, his fault and no one else's.... persons intentional irresponsible actions injures an innocent bystander and someone else's property, wrong and his fault ....person is personally injured as a result of his own intentional irresponsible actions and incurs expenses, potential criminal charges AND damages property , his fault and no one else's.... Can certainly find pity for this person and hope he recovers as well as his victims , but cant excuse or justify the actions , doubtful anyone forced him to do this

 

[aka619er]

In my mind this whole incident proves one thing.

If this wasn't a no wake zone, both parties would have continued on their way like nothing ever happened. The boat was hit because he had to proceed in a no wake manner and the guy landed on it hitting the girl. Had this area been managed like it was for the last 60 years then not only would this post not be here, but the boat would have been long gone by the time the guy landed in the water.

Therefor, no wake zones are dangerous. Thank you government for protecting us.

 

[Bobby V]

In my mind this whole incident proves one thing.

If this wasn't a no wake zone, both parties would have continued on their way like nothing ever happened. The boat was hit because he had to proceed in a no wake manner and the guy landed on it hitting the girl. Had this area been managed like it was for the last 60 years then not only would this post not be here, but the boat would have been long gone by the time the guy landed in the water.

Therefor, no wake zones are dangerous. Thank you government for protecting us.

So your saying a moving boat at full speed can't be hit. ?:headscratch:

 

[aka619er]

So your saying a moving boat at full speed can't be hit. ?:headscratch:

I'm saying anything "CAN" happen. In this situation though had the boat been moving at speed, it wouldn't have had the jumper land on it.

 

[Bobby V]

I'm saying anything "CAN" happen. In this situation though had the boat been moving at speed, it wouldn't have had the jumper land on it.

It doesn't matter if the boat was at speed or not there is still a chance of the guy hitting the boat. I have seen jet skis hit boats standing still and have seen jet skis hit a boat at full speed.

 

[Reddy Too]

Lol and now everyone knows you're an idiot [emoji41] I think you have to drink to be drunk [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

 

[BHC Vic]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

You speaking from experience?

 

[BHC Vic]

Or just talking out your ass?

 

[thetub]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

:thumbsdown

 

[aka619er]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

Comments like this are chicken shit. Rubbing something like this in the face of someone bettering themselves is a no class move.

 

[rivermobster]

Comments like this are chicken shit. Rubbing something like this in the face of someone bettering themselves is a no class move.

Yep. This thread has run its course.

Vic seems to be good peeps. I don't always agree with him, but I've always enjoyed his posts.

Might as well lock this one up.

 

[Singleton]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

WTF! Posts like this are uncalled for. Vic has admitted his past issues and works everyday to avoid those pitfalls. Leave the guy alone, or say that to his face.

 

[underpressure]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

Don't know who you are, 18 posts? Showed your ass there fella...bs thing to say to Vic! Please go away...

 

[sirbob]

I agree. However, by law the recreation we allow must be compatible with our primary purpose of wildlife conservation AND by law we must prioritize "wildlife dependent" recreation. Take a look at 50 CFR 26.31 and 26.32. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/50/part-26/subpart-C

Using the power of laws designed to maintain and protect natural resources is WRONG when applied to man made phenomenon such as what the bureau of reclamation has created when they put the damns in and created the man made islands for these birds and fish to congregate.

All this talk about the "Refuge" is BS - it's a man made area and the enforcement of the laws designed for places like Yosemite is WRONG!!

 

[AzGeo]

the speeds, or proximity, of boats/skis had anything to do with this event .

IF the jumper had CONSIDERED boat or ski traffic and or their speeds, he MAY have looked at traffic BEFORE he leaped . We all know that was not the case .

I see no (after the fact) logic to equating vessel traffic or speeds in the area, and choices as to 'going up on the bridges', nor 'jumping from a bridge into the water' . People have jumped off of high docks and out of speeding boats in traffic on Parker all the time, few if any have landed on a passing boat, at any speed .

He is probably not the first nor last to jump from this bridge, "you just can't fix stupid" .

The tragic outcome proves the jumper 'considered only his actions', and had no regard for what others were doing .

Some adults understand that 'freedom' also means that the individual has a personal CHOICE . Often those who do understand the value of that choice will be those who told him; "don't do it" .

 

[SRice]

Silly silly Vicious once a drunk always a drunk. You just happen to be in recovery mode which can change in the drop of a hat.

I'm guessing you were a bully in high school too. Sounds to me like Vic made mistakes as a young man (me too), learned from them, and has matured into a responsible husband and father. That counts for a lot in my book.

 

[SRice]

Using the power of laws designed to maintain and protect natural resources is WRONG when applied to man made phenomenon such as what the bureau of reclamation has created when they put the damns in and created the man made islands for these birds and fish to congregate.

All this talk about the "Refuge" is BS - it's a man made area and the enforcement of the laws designed for places like Yosemite is WRONG!!

The Refuge is mostly the free flowing portion of the Colorado River north of Lake Havasu with a bit of the Arizona shoreline north of town; BOR now owns and controls the vast majority of Lake Havasu itself. While dams have certainly altered the river, it is far more similar to the original habitat than the modern Lake Havasu. Regardless, Congress established the Refuge not to preserve pristine, "untrammeled" landscapes but rather because they knew they were destroying much of the wildlife habitat along the river and wanted to protect those areas which would provide the food, shelter, and other critical needs of the remaining wildlife. They did not create new habitat where historically none existed. Instead they preserved what remained after they destroyed the rest. Wildlife refuges are not managed the same as national parks. They are managed to provide maximum benefit to wildlife even when that means artificially irrigating, planting crops to feed waterfowl, and other manipulations. If the objective of species conservation is met, FWS has no trouble using a human altered landscape- in fact there are many refuges which are just old farms.

 

[sirbob]

When you decide to put priority to birds and fish that have been artificially breed and placed over people and business that's a problem in my mind.

To be clear if the birds and fish were there first to the extent they are now - they would have priority.

But they were not in this area to the extent that they have been "rehabilitated" now - and now people and their Motorsport business and economic life bloods are being very severely threatened.

The fact of the matter is the only reason all the ramped up enforcement and talk and clandestine photo entrapment is taking place is to build a case to close this area to the OVERWHELMING number of people that actually use it.

Power boaters.

That's WRONG!

 

[SRice]

When you decide to put priority to birds and fish that have been artificially breed and placed over people and business that's a problem in my mind.

To be clear if the birds and fish were there first to the extent they are now - they would have priority.

But they were not in this area to the extent that they have been "rehabilitated" now - and now people and their Motorsport business and economic life bloods are being very severely threatened.

The fact of the matter is the only reason all the ramped up enforcement and talk and clandestine photo entrapment is taking place is to build a case to close this area to the OVERWHELMING number of people that actually use it.

Power boaters.

That's WRONG!

I don't understand. There are non-native sport fish in the area (supporting a significant economic sector of its own) but non native species are not driving any of the Refuge's current proposals. The Boating CD had two parts- public safety and protecting the remaining habitat of native species such as the Ridgeway's rail, which is ONLY found on the lower Colorado River. These species have not been artificially bred nor are their numbers elevated relative to historical populations. In fact they are on the Endangered Species list specifically because their numbers have fallen so much in response to habitat destruction. I have heard arguments like yours applied to species like the American Bison which were decimated and then bred with Canadian wood bison as a last ditch effort to save the species. In Florida I even heard misinformed individuals claiming that manatees were an introduced species despite vast archaeological evidence to the contrary (manatee bones are routinely found in pre-European Calusa Indian ruins). But I've never heard somebody try to claim that genetically pure, wild, endemic populations like the Ridgeway's rail are artificial and not worthy of protection.

 

[sirbob]

They did not create new habitat where historically none existed. Instead they preserved what remained after they destroyed the rest.

Really ????

That's not what is says on the https://www.usbr.gov/lc/hooverdam/parkerdam.html website...

"Today, inlet and outlet structures control the flow of river water into the refuge, and a dike encompassing the marsh has stabilized the water level. Dredge channels in the marsh have improved deeper and cooler water fish habitat. Artificial islands constructed in the marsh have become home to many species of birds and waterfowl."

I would say when you are dredging channels creating artificial islands and controlling the inlet and outlet and building a dike you are creating new habitats.

That stretch of river used to be down to a trickle in late summer and was never able to support the natural wildlife that exist today.

Now to come along and say - look we have a bunch of wildlife that we made a home for (noble intent) is not reason to persecute or displace people and economic lifeblood of an entire city and region of the country.

At the rate you are going Lake Havasu City will soon go the way of all the small towns in West Virginia that used to have coal mines.

 

[sirbob]

I don't understand. There are non-native sport fish in the area (supporting a significant economic sector of its own) but non native species are not driving any of the Refuge's current proposals. The Boating CD had two parts- public safety and protecting the remaining habitat of native species such as the Ridgeway's rail, which is ONLY found on the lower Colorado River. These species have not been artificially bred nor are their numbers elevated relative to historical populations. In fact they are on the Endangered Species list specifically because their numbers have fallen so much in response to habitat destruction. I have heard arguments like yours applied to species like the American Bison which were decimated and then bred with Canadian wood bison as a last ditch effort to save the species. In Florida I even heard misinformed individuals claiming that manatees were an introduced species despite vast archaeological evidence to the contrary (manatee bones are routinely found in pre-European Calusa Indian ruins). But I've never heard somebody try to claim that genetically pure, wild, endemic populations like the Ridgeway's rail are artificial and not worthy of protection.

Public safety ... smafty

The fish that are being protected that you mentioned are more populous today then they were in 1900 -

As dry as it's been the last 5 years - if no damns were ever built, who's to say nature wouldn't have wiped them out by now?

Who made the US GOV God ? Who gives the gov the right to pick what species survive natural selection?

 

[SRice]

Really ????

That's not what is says on the https://www.usbr.gov/lc/hooverdam/parkerdam.html website...

"Today, inlet and outlet structures control the flow of river water into the refuge, and a dike encompassing the marsh has stabilized the water level. Dredge channels in the marsh have improved deeper and cooler water fish habitat. Artificial islands constructed in the marsh have become home to many species of birds and waterfowl."

I would say when you are dredging channels creating artificial islands and controlling the inlet and outlet and building a dike you are creating new habitats.

That stretch of river used to be down to a trickle in late summer and was never able to support the natural wildlife that exist today.

Now to come along and say - look we have a bunch of wildlife that we made a home for (noble intent) is not reason to persecute or displace people and economic lifeblood of an entire city and region of the country.

At the rate you are going Lake Havasu City will soon go the way of all the small towns in West Virginia that used to have coal mines.

The full text of that paragraph makes it clear that it is referring to Topock Marsh, not the river. The marsh is highly regulated and artificial- but there are no artificial islands, dikes, or irrigation dams on the portion of the River which we were discussing. Have you ever been on the Marsh? I would guess not, unless you own a small bass boat in addition to the boat shown in your photo. The Marsh was created by flooding a mesquite forest growing in an old river channel. The marsh now has tens of thousands of barely submerged tree stumps which would eat your boat for lunch. Its good for three recreational activities only- kayaking, duck hunting, and fishing. Regardless of the confusion over river versus marsh and regardless of the man-made modifications to the Marsh, as I said previously FWS is perfectly happy to improve habitat. A significant portion of the taxes paid by waterfowl hunters in the form of Federal Duck Stamps are specifically earmarked for this purpose. But rest assured that the 4000 acres of artificial habitat on Topock Marsh does not come close to replacing the hundreds of miles of habitat destroyed by the damming of the Colorado River and subsequent urban and agricultural development. We're pretty far from the original thread here, so if you'd like to continue with this conversation perhaps we need to start a new thread.

 

[SRice]

FYI I grew up in the coal fields of Belmont County just across the Ohio River from the West Virginia towns you're talking about. My grandfather spent his whole career with Consol Coal and my dad worked for R&F coal underground until mining started going belly up. He lost his job in about 1984 during the Reagan years. In recent history it has been the availability of cheap natural gas through fracking which has hastened the demise of the coal industry, but the economics of coal were never kind to miners. Robots can do long wall mining and huge shovels can dig massive pits a whole lot cheaper than miners. The miners lost their jobs but for another couple decades companies like Peabody and Consol continued to thrive on mechanized mining. It's all happening again with fracking. A decade of high paying jobs developing the fracking fields, but those workers are no longer needed for the energy companies to continue sucking money out of the ground- and the economy of my hometown is on the verge of crashing again.

 

[SRice]

Public safety ... smafty

The fish that are being protected that you mentioned are more populous today then they were in 1900 -

As dry as it's been the last 5 years - if no damns were ever built, who's to say nature wouldn't have wiped them out by now?

Who made the US GOV God ? Who gives the gov the right to pick what species survive natural selection?

Which fish? Bass and red ear? Yeah, those were introduced and managed by the state for recreation and economic value. But can you even name the native species which have all been driven to the edge of extinction by damming? Those species are not adapted to the cold, clean water of the modern Colorado River. Warm muddy and nasty was where they thrived. Once the dams went in and started trapping all the sediment and releasing cold water from deep in the lake, their populations plummeted and frankly I believe they are probably doomed. If you don't believe me, Google "humpback chub" and see if you can find a single source claiming their population is healthier today than in 1900.

 

[underpressure]

Using the power of laws designed to maintain and protect natural resources is WRONG when applied to man made phenomenon such as what the bureau of reclamation has created when they put the damns in and created the man made islands for these birds and fish to congregate.

All this talk about the "Refuge" is BS - it's a man made area and the enforcement of the laws designed for places like Yosemite is WRONG!!

^^^^^
Couldn't agree more!

 

[sirbob]

We are discussing the Havasu Refuge - a 17 mile stretch of the river and everything associated with it as far as I'm concerned.

From the mouth to the bridge ...

That I want to keep open and accessible to all people in what ever they want to be in to enjoy it.

High performance boat / kayak / row boat / jet ski / paddle board ...

Or even the Old Town canoe that I enjoy using to go into back water out of the way places.

 

[SRice]

We are discussing the Havasu Refuge - a 17 mile stretch of the river and everything associated with it as far as I'm concerned.

From the mouth to the bridge ...

That I want to keep open and accessible to all people in what ever they want to be in to enjoy it.

High performance boat / kayak / row boat / jet ski / paddle board ...

Or even the Old Town canoe that I enjoy using to go into back water out of the way places.

Okay, that's what I thought too. But Topock Marsh, the area discussed in the link you provided, is not a part of that 17 mile stretch of river. Nor does it lie "from the mouth to the bridge". It is a landlocked marsh which you cannot reach from the river unless you are a carp swimming in through the concrete canal 10 miles north of I40. The River is largely natural, though the flood regime has changed since damming and the water runs cleaner and colder than 100 years ago. The backwaters off the main channel in places like behind Sandbar still provide good habitat to the bird species which always lived along this stretch of the lower Colorado, but there is very little good habitat remaining on the Colorado for the endangered native fish species. All of these areas remain open to powerboats, row boats, paddle boards, and your Old Town Canoe but the backwaters are closed to jet skis and water skiing because those activities have been deemed to incompatible with habitat conservation and, in the case of Topock Marsh, because skiing and PWCs simply cannot operate safely in a submerged stump farm. The rules for PWCs and skiing in the Refuges backwaters have been in place for many years, long before I arrived. I think there may still be some confusion on geography. Feel free to call me sometime at 928-667-4144 and we can figure it out.

 

[River Runnin]

Talk about getting off topic! :smackhead Now, ... As far as those Idiot fucking bridge jumpers!...Even they would think twice! maybe even strain their half wit heads to see what they hear is about to scream past!

I'd say the no wake no noise is as much to blame as the jumper for jump'n! :hmm

 

[sirbob]

Let's not let the facts or exact geographical lessons get in the way of not closing off access to boating areas ...[emoji12]

 

[SRice]

Talk about getting off topic! :smackhead Now, ... As far as those Idiot fucking bridge jumpers!...Even they would think twice! maybe even strain their half wit heads to see what they hear is about to scream past!

I'd say the no wake no noise is as much to blame as the jumper for jump'n! :hmm

Agreed. Sorry about the tangent.

 

[spectra3279]

The Refuge is mostly the free flowing portion of the Colorado River north of Lake Havasu with a bit of the Arizona shoreline north of town; BOR now owns and controls the vast majority of Lake Havasu itself. While dams have certainly altered the river, it is far more similar to the original habitat than the modern Lake Havasu. Regardless, Congress established the Refuge not to preserve pristine, "untrammeled" landscapes but rather because they knew they were destroying much of the wildlife habitat along the river and wanted to protect those areas which would provide the food, shelter, and other critical needs of the remaining wildlife. They did not create new habitat where historically none existed. Instead they preserved what remained after they destroyed the rest. Wildlife refuges are not managed the same as national parks. They are managed to provide maximum benefit to wildlife even when that means artificially irrigating, planting crops to feed waterfowl, and other manipulations. If the objective of species conservation is met, FWS has no trouble using a human altered landscape- in fact there are many refuges which are just old farms.

Irrigating and planting is not the purpose of a refuge. It's to leave it alone. As in don't mess with or alter. So bu all this planting and I rigatoni you are actually increasing the size. At what point will the whole area be off limits to boats?

 

[AzGeo]

Please enlighten me as to how much 'wet lands distruction' was done to the river after 1938 ?

Prior to 1938 there was a 'swift' moving river between Bullhead and Parker . The erosion of the banks by the natural river flow was the only method of creating 'wildlife wetlands' naturally in the side canyons, which became 'wetlands' once the river bank levels reached the canyon openings .

Being natural and uncontrolled, it often had 'low spells' as well as 'flooding problems' , on a seasonal basis . BUT, it was still just a river with limited UNRELIABLE 'banks, coves and beaches' .

After 1938, the dams slowed the flows and created LAKES, and Havasu in particular is much wider and deeper than the original river that flowed here for eons .

In other words, there are hundreds if not thousands more 'protected coves and natural habitats now', than there were in this area prior to 1938 . Today there are over ten times more shoreline to this lake, than when it was just a river, AND the water flows have been controlled which prevents disruption of those 'new' wetlands .

78 years after the fact, you now expect the boating public here to believe the government's 'story' about 'wetlands protection' ?

What are the real reasons for these 'attempted' ridicules water way restrictions ?

We are not as stupid as this federal government thinks we are ..........

 

[SRice]

Irrigating and planting is not the purpose of a refuge. It's to leave it alone. As in don't mess with or alter. So bu all this planting and I rigatoni you are actually increasing the size. At what point will the whole area be off limits to boats?

Let's take this to another thread- I'll start one with this question.

 

[SRice]

Please enlighten me as to how much 'wet lands distruction' was done to the river after 1938 ?

Prior to 1938 there was a 'swift' moving river between Bullhead and Parker . The erosion of the banks by the natural river flow was the only method of creating 'wildlife wetlands' naturally in the side canyons, which became 'wetlands' once the river bank levels reached the canyon openings .

Being natural and uncontrolled, it often had 'low spells' as well as 'flooding problems' , on a seasonal basis . BUT, it was still just a river with limited UNRELIABLE 'banks, coves and beaches' .

After 1938, the dams slowed the flows and created LAKES, and Havasu in particular is much wider and deeper than the original river that flowed here for eons .

In other words, there are hundreds if not thousands more 'protected coves and natural habitats now', than there were in this area prior to 1938 . Today there are over ten times more shoreline to this lake, than when it was just a river, AND the water flows have been controlled which prevents disruption of those 'new' wetlands .

78 years after the fact, you now expect the boating public here to believe the government's 'story' about 'wetlands protection' ?

What are the real reasons for these 'attempted' ridicules water way restrictions ?

We are not as stupid as this federal government thinks we are ..........

Please see new thread.

 

[buck35]

Unless he was escaping a zombie mob, no reasonable person would approve of his actions. I don't care if he was an eagle scout or not.

Twisting it around because a person did something in the throws of youth and got away with it still doesn't make the act right.

Lol , you read into half a post to blast me , I'm not sticking up for him for sure , but right or wrong everyone gets their day before sent to the gallows. Congratulations on being perfect sir.

 

[AzGeo]

Please see new thread.

On one line you are saying the Topock marsh needs only 10HP slow moving craft, so as not to strike trees and disturb the wildlife .

Don't forget Speed Alley is no longer a 'boating destination', because the government said the boats were destroying the natural area and wildlife . It did not flood there even in heavy rains, it's just all about the destructive powerboats .

Then you go on to tell me that damming up Lake Havasu has destroyed a lot of habitat, because the water isn't moving enough and it never floods any longer .

So with hundreds of new coves created after 1938, many with non-moving waters, and others that are 'rain water drains', this lake is 'less habitable' for 'air, shore, shallow and deep water wildlife ?

Once again a government employee is going to 'educate me' while he pontificates from both sides of the same coin .

Do your 'experts' want still waters or unpredictable moving waters, or is this all really just about keeping your agencies and jobs relevant ?

Thanks for your time, no need to reply ..........

 

[McRib]

I swear all I'm reading is blah blah blah fish fish hippy hippy hippy hug a tree.

 

[Crazyhippy]

I swear all I'm reading is blah blah blah fish fish hippy hippy hippy hug a tree.

Huh? What?

 

[relaxalot]

Please enlighten me as to how much 'wet lands distruction' was done to the river after 1938 ?

Prior to 1938 there was a 'swift' moving river between Bullhead and Parker . The erosion of the banks by the natural river flow was the only method of creating 'wildlife wetlands' naturally in the side canyons, which became 'wetlands' once the river bank levels reached the canyon openings .

Being natural and uncontrolled, it often had 'low spells' as well as 'flooding problems' , on a seasonal basis . BUT, it was still just a river with limited UNRELIABLE 'banks, coves and beaches' .

After 1938, the dams slowed the flows and created LAKES, and Havasu in particular is much wider and deeper than the original river that flowed here for eons .

In other words, there are hundreds if not thousands more 'protected coves and natural habitats now', than there were in this area prior to 1938 . Today there are over ten times more shoreline to this lake, than when it was just a river, AND the water flows have been controlled which prevents disruption of those 'new' wetlands .

78 years after the fact, you now expect the boating public here to believe the government's 'story' about 'wetlands protection' ?

What are the real reasons for these 'attempted' ridicules water way restrictions ?

We are not as stupid as this federal government thinks we are ..........

Think of how Lake Powell with more shoreline than the entire western United States did not even exist before the dam was built. Over 2000 miles of shoreline! It was a desert. There was no where near the millions of fish that there are now. A few years ago I was on a house boat with an overeducated liberal and they were talking about all the boats on Powell and the pollution and climate change and gluten alternatives... Then I told them that before the dam was built this was a desert. Now it is an expanded wetland.. Really expanded. I think there is a time and place for government regulation. I believe that we should be good stewards of the earth and conscious of our environmental footprint.... but I live in California where there is a 35mph speed limit and going to the lake is more like watching a nascar race on the oval track under a yellow flag. There are good guys out there that work for the government but the Fish and Game departments can easily become infested with the Peta people who believe that fish should be appointed lawyers and such. On a holiday weekend there are so many agencies working Lake Havasu it is sometimes ridiculous. Sometimes four boats patrolling the gangland of Steamboat cove. As our government grows our freedoms will be diminished. Taxes will be increased to pay for the agencies to take away your freedom. Some of it is necessary... some of it is bullshit.. It is starting to smell a little musky in here....