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The Down Pedal - A Brief Overview of the Left Pedal in a V-drive

RiverDave

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If you are a modern day I/O boater you might not even know what a down pedal is in a boat. In V-Drives there is typically two pedals. A down pedal (or a switch on the dash or gunnel) and a gas pedal. V-Drives don't have "trim" like an I/O boat, so they have what is called "Cavitation Plates" on the back of them. They bend those plates up, neutral, down, or infinitely in between to adjust trim of the boat. By bending the plates they are actually bending the running surface on the back of the boat adding Hook (down) or Rocker (up) to the boat. They are basically an extremely efficient trim tab, that has the ability to add positive trim as well when they are in the up position. Picture a trim tab as dragging a plate in the water to create lift, where as a cavitation plate you can move it very little and create a ton of lift, via bending the running surface, instead of dragging something behind the boat.

(Cav Plates on Phil's 21 Rush)
IMG_0871.jpg

Some V-drives will actually have three pedals in the boat, The gas pedal, a down pedal (lower the plates), and an up pedal (pull the plates up). So lets talk about drag racing for a second as an example where an up pedal is commonly used.

(3 pedal setup with a lock out handle on a Runner Bottom Flat called "Strange Behavior.")
IMG_3132.jpg

Imagine leaving the start area and the first thing you are going to do is roll the boat on plane, your left foot is going to be leaning on the down pedal. As the boat accelerates you are creating transom lift to help roll the boat over (or in larger Horsepower applications keep the boat from just jumping straight up out of the water). In the mid range while the boat is accelerating hard you will still be using the down pedal while making adjustments to "set" the attitude of the boat as it goes down the track. The down pedal (bending the cav plates down) is leveraging against the constant acceleration, and thrust from the angle of the prop shaft, that is trying to lift the nose beyond where you are regulating it with the down pedal (and in big HP cases the throttle as well).

(Single lock out handle with no left Pedal in this beautifully restored wood deck Schiada)
IMG_2494 - Copy.jpg


As the boat starts coming up on speed the acceleration will lessen and so does the bow lift, and at some point you would want to release the down pedal entirely, and you would be crossing over into an area where you want to pull the plates up, helping to carry the nose of the boat. This is where the up pedal would come into play. You could now push the up pedal and start to carry the nose to get even a little more out of it on the big end.

The whole reason for the up pedal stems from water adhesion. If you set the plates all the way up, and you were running a fast boat, the water would actually run across the bottom of the boat and suck the plates down to just above neutral. How far above neutral would depend upon how much return spring pressure you had on the down pedal, and how fast you were going. So somebody put a pedal on the other side and now you could adjust it with your foot if you needed up trim.

(Single down pedal in a Kurtis runner bottom)
IMG_2959.jpg

In the evolution of thought (and horsepower) came the idea that instead of the up pedal, they could just set the plates up position, and make the return spring pressure so great that the water couldn't suck the plates down. The singular left pedal is now set so that "at rest" the plates are all the way up. Adding some pedal rotation would be neutral, and then as the pedal rotates further it would be continuing down.

For marathon racing v-drives though, (keep in mind the linkage is all mechanical) the drivers have to overcome all of that extra spring pressure (on top of the force it takes to bend the plates, and the water pressure against them) for the duration of what could end up being a very long time. Back when men were men, they iron manned it and toughed it out. Their calf muscles on there left leg were as disproportionate as a teenagers arms just after they discovered their first skin rag.

In the article of Phil's boat (The last Rush) you will see one solution to this problem where they Grier came up with a pretty clever way of solving that problem and still maintaining an entirely mechanical (meaning non assisted) linkage.

(Phil's unique down Pedal on his 21 Rush)
IMG_0879.jpg

Instead of a short throw, and short leverage rotating assembly that relies solely on the calf muscle, they made a long throw (more leverage = easier to move, but you have to move it farther) pedal that you actually push on with the larger muscles in your leg so a marathon driver doesn't get worn out. (Imagine the clutch pedal in a car)

(Side shot of Phil's down pedal)
IMG_0876.jpg

Circle racing isn't near as popular as it was back in the day, and the guys that built the boats for marathon racing are getting more and more scarce. This is why the setup in Phil's boat is incredibly rare, in fact I believe there's only two or three setups like this out there right now.

In most other high horsepower cruiser applications they have things like lockout handles (the lever in between their legs, which allows you to set the plates to some attitude with a peddle override if you needed more) and you just deal with the spring pressure, or they flipped completely to electric actuators where you set the "trim" or the bend of the plates by hitting the switch up or down.

(Single Down Pedal with a lock out handle on Joe Mitchell's 21 Hallett Vector "Coin Toss")
IMG_2519.jpg


The pro's of a foot pedal over an electric actuator is the response on the boat is almost instant. If you come across rough water you can set the boat in a big hurry with your foot, where it might take a few seconds with an actuator.

Which brings us to the most modern of times and technology. The die hards and racers don't want to deal with huge spring pressures, but they still like the instant response of a foot pedal. There has been two systems developed that solve the spring issue, but are still pedal actuated, and both are "assist" style systems. With these systems you can eliminate the "up" pedal, which inherently makes the boat easier to drive, but also adds a measure of safety. In the event of a mishap there is some opportunity for a drivers foot to possibly get caught between the up and the down pedal which could lead to a serious injury.

(Cav Plates on a Runner Bottom Flat "Strange Behavior")
IMG_3130.jpg

According to Clyde Church that exact scenario played out in Colorado when Dave Bryant was driving the SS-91 boat. He had gone into the first turn and hit some rough water. Dave's foot slipped off the down pedal and got wedged between the two pedals as he was coming out of the boat. It was at that point that Clyde and Phil Bergeron decided they needed to change something. Working together Clyde, Phil, and Dave developed the air assist system. (Patented on 9-14-2006)

http://www.google.com/patents/US7380515

US07380515-20080603-D00000.jpg

The air assist system that has an extremely high pressure air bottle and integrates a piston inline with the mechanical linkage. As you press on the down pedal it releases air into that piston, and helps to overcome the spring pressure via air pressure, but still keeps everything mechanically in tact for response and "feel."

(Air assist system installed inline without the springs, Photo courtesy of Dave Sammons)
shaz2.jpg

The other basically works off a power steering pump that basically makes the pedal hydraulic and removes the spring problem from the equation entirely. I personally haven't driven either, so I can't speak to the pro's and cons of either with any experience.

There's plenty of guys out there running up pedals, and single pedals with big springs. Clyde has been remarkably successful with his air assist system (built and sold by Phil Bergeron in AZ) having now sold over 100 kits on the open market to circle boat racers, drag racers, and river warriors alike. You will find a lot of cruisers with lock out handles and down pedals, and more mild mannered cruisers with just a lock out handle by itself. You will also find electric cav plates on everything from slow cruisers, to 1400 HP + Schiada's.

(Single Down pedal and lock out on the infamous "Bodacious")
IMG_3234.jpg

In the case of Phil Axtel's Rush though, it's something uniquely special. Not because there's only a couple of them out there, but because it solves all the problems, by allowing the driver to use the larger muscles in his leg while lowering the resistance, versus some additional method of assistance. No matter how you look at it, that's just good old school engineering.

RD
 

RiverDave

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No shit?? They work fine on my cell phone / computer etc. anyone else having problems?
 

RiverDave

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There I just inserted each picture manually.. They showing up now?

RD
 

Roaddawg

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I cant see them on the desktop computer
 

fmo24

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Ya just blue dots on my iPad
 

Roaddawg

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I can see them now..You were fixing as I posted
 

El Guapo

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I got all the photo's, and what a great Thread. You have been at work this New Year posting good stuff, New Year Resolution? Great to read/see and thanks. When I met you at Monster bash you were piss ass drunk, talking non-sense about the great Schiada boats compared to the boats in the Poker Run. My wife asked me after we walked away from meeting you if you were joking or the real River Dave. None the less, thank you for the site and the great post.

Bo
 

dryhoze1

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Here's a down
Hope it shows up. Lol
 

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TLAW719

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Everything showed up. Great pictures and good read. Thanks.
 

RiverDave

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I got all the photo's, and what a great Thread. You have been at work this New Year posting good stuff, New Year Resolution? Great to read/see and thanks. When I met you at Monster bash you were piss ass drunk, talking non-sense about the great Schiada boats compared to the boats in the Poker Run. My wife asked me after we walked away from meeting you if you were joking or the real River Dave. None the less, thank you for the site and the great post.

Bo

The drinking part sounds like me.. The other part I'm thinking maybe you misconstrued a joke or something. Or maybe I was shut housed and thought I was funny and wasn't. Lol
RD
 

GRADS

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Is it normal to have a bike chain on your steering? I remember how reliable my chain was on my bicycle when I was a kid.:yikes

IMG_3132.jpg
 

RiverDave

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Is it normal to have a bike chain on your steering? I remember how reliable my chain was on my bicycle when I was a kid.:yikes

View attachment 458428

Absolutely.. They run the bike chain to cable ends and then run the cables back to a quadrant via a pulley system which turns the rudder. That can be next weeks Wednesday article if you like.
 

lenmann

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Great read Dave, it explained some questions I had.

Keep em coming.
 

Sharp Shooter

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In the case of Phil Axtel's Rush though, it's something uniquely special. Not because there's only a couple of them out there, but because it solves all the problems, by allowing the driver to use the larger muscles in his leg while lowering the resistance, versus some additional method of assistance. No matter how you look at it, that's just good old school engineering.

Good thread Dave. :thumbsup

As I read this I thought, who the hell uses only their calf muscles to push the down pedal? I can't imagine that unless it's hydro, air or electric assisted. You have to have enough pressure on the plates to keep the hydrodynamic pressure from moving them around. The plates are a continuation of the bottom of the boat and it's not in anyone's best interest to have them dancing around. That being said, you need your quads to push the pedal. The only exception I can imagine would be older style slow ski boats that don't need much spring pressure.

A lot of circle guys have (or used to have) a replicated stringer, seat and pedal assembly in their garages that they use to exercise that down pedal leg. :thumbsup
 

El Guapo

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The drinking part sounds like me.. The other part I'm thinking maybe you misconstrued a joke or something. Or maybe I was shut housed and thought I was funny and wasn't. Lol
RD

It was funny as Hell. I was with a few industiry folks from Phoenix who also thought it was harmless and laughed.. I then had to explain how much "KOOLER" the Schiada was/is than any other boat. My Dad would agree, so it's all good.
Great posts thus far... Im a NOBODY, but keep up the Great & New Informative Posts.

Bo
 

poncho

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Nice job RD, seriously...kickass combo of pic's and text that followed each other. No system will ever be faster than the signal from your brain to your foot, I like to think its milliseconds....solid work.:thumbsup
 

RiverDave

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It was funny as Hell. I was with a few industiry folks from Phoenix who also thought it was harmless and laughed.. I then had to explain how much "KOOLER" the Schiada was/is than any other boat. My Dad would agree, so it's all good.
Great posts thus far... Im a NOBODY, but keep up the Great & New Informative Posts.

Bo

You are not a nobody.. You are the guy with the bad ass pro charger setup, that is now getting replaced with monster Teague power by octane marine! (Was gonna hit you up about doing an article on the boat).

And yes Schiadas are KOOLER then everything else.. Just ask any Schiada owner they'll tell you! :D
 

skiracr

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Awesome thread and write up! [emoji41] [emoji106] [emoji106]

I love these these threads, keep em coming Dave!
 

pkrrvr619

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awesome write up. great info and answered a lot of questions i had regarding v drives.

:thumbsup
 

underpressure

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Very good article, well written, and bitchin pics! I am smarter today than I was yesterday, and i didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn!

Thanks Dave, was always curious about how cav plates and pedals work, now I know...
 

El Guapo

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You are not a nobody.. You are the guy with the bad ass pro charger setup, that is now getting replaced with monster Teague power by octane marine! (Was gonna hit you up about doing an article on the boat).

And yes Schiadas are KOOLER then everything else.. Just ask any Schiada owner they'll tell you! :D

I know My wife and I, Eliminator, Teague and Octane would all love a write up. My wife, son and I will be at the Boat Show in April. We will be down for D.S in April and the the Eliminator Reggetta in May. Your welcome to come give her a test, you drive. I have plenty of of GpPro's and the cool GPS Sony's cams thanks to Don Johnson. I hope it's faster than the Schiadai's or I am F#@$#%..

Regards,
Bo
 

Willie B

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... Denis Porter's hydraulic assist system was brilliant unfortunately after he passed I think the system went into hibernation...although his partner Paul in Canada may still be selling them, but I just don't know???...

...After Denis's system another system came on the scene that was a bit less complicated...As I am pre-op heavily medicated I am low on memory power...and can't remember much about that system???...

... Can anybody post the exact workings of the Dennis Porter system and also could someone post the exact workings of the system that followed his and who developed it???...

... Heavily medicated minds want to know...
 

nrbr

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Greers Down pedal deal is really easy to push! The only problem is us circle folk use the axis of the down pedal to help hold ourselves in the seat.(This has nothing to force your foot into) Also every bump you hit that is strong enough to try and knock you out of the seat forces you to inadvertently push the pedal which in turn buries the nose... 90% quad muscles on the old school (pre assist) down pedals in the flats.
 

Willie B

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Greers Down pedal deal is really easy to push! The only problem is us circle folk use the axis of the down pedal to help hold ourselves in the seat.(This has nothing to force your foot into) Also every bump you hit that is strong enough to try and knock you out of the seat forces you to inadvertently push the pedal which in turn buries the nose... 90% quad muscles on the old school (pre assist) down pedals in the flats.

... If I remember correctly the Denis Porter hydraulic system could be adjusted as to the personal preference amount foot pressure required???...
 

nrbr

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... If I remember correctly the Denis Porter hydraulic system could be adjusted as to the personal preference amount foot pressure required???...

Yes it is a very nice system!! My favorite one. I was only commenting on the upper mounted mechanical system and my opinion of it as I've tried it. Could work really well in a capsule where the body is strapped in come to think of it...
 

Uncle Dave

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I used to rewire my trim at 24 volts for more speed on and off the corner, and it still feels positively dog like compared to a plate boat.

There is nothing a responsive as a plate boat - full stop.

I end up trading off using the pedals or gas as a brace point to hold me in at some state when things get hairy.


Cool fun article Dave!

It should really help out the guys at OSO who need to go to the bank get loan and buy a clue.


UD
 

DtB

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Nice article great pics. Any more pics of the wood deck schiada around ? Please point me in the right direction if so .....thanks Dan
 

Moneypit

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It is amazing how many performance boaters out there just kinda stare at you when you start talking "plates n Pedals"... Huh?? The use of the "up" pedal to carry the nose is somewhat of a giveaway that either the boat is under powered, or needs a little "tuning" on the set up. ie prop location (fore/aft), and or initial plate setting. A common mistake when setting the plates is to use a similar boat as an absolute guide. Every boat, even if out of the same mold, same power, same prop, same everything is a little bit different. Also, a 1/16th of an inch in initial plate setting can make a huge difference how the boat performs, especially circle boats.

Another critical area in the cav plate set up is the hardware. So often I have seen wear between the bellcrank and the plate rod, normally "keyed" together, and clamped with a bolt/nut combo, mislead a driver into thinking his plates are "all wrong" because of slop in the linkage. All the plate hardware needs to be inspected regularly to be sure there is no "slop" anywhere in the linkage..

Those turnbuckles and shafts that control the plates are also know to break during a race. Always carry spares of those components in your toolbox.

And finally, one of the most important things when "tweeking" the plates, is WRITE IT DOWN. Keep accurate notes of "how it was" and "how it is now", so you can go back to the way it was if the changes didn't help, or in some cases made it worse... And the cardinal rule of boat tuning, CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME, record the results and make educated decisions, not guesses what to do next...

The winning-est boat in APBA history, Dave Rankin's SS80, "Wild Child" Flatbottom Sprint Boat, gained that title by doing more "homework" and testing that any other 3 or 4 boats combined... Dave's explanation of cav plates? "The plates are your friend and they'll save your ass"....

Ray
 

RiverDave

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Nice article great pics. Any more pics of the wood deck schiada around ? Please point me in the right direction if so .....thanks Dan

Yes I wrote an article on it awhile back. I will post up a link for you when I get to my computer
 

Taboma

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Owned an early 70's 18' true flat Hondo that I ran often at the strip during the mid to late 70's. Typical down pedal, lockout configuration.

One hell of a fun river / ski boat, although not so good for teaching skiers since we didn't run an alternator. Total of 22 gallons (2 x 11 per side) meant a lot of gas stops.

I always appreciated the down pedal feedback, I felt it helped in obtaining and keeping a great set.

With the talk of various pedal systems, I'm wondering if anybody had any luck with a rather simple Master and Slave cylinder setup, more typical of a hydraulic clutch setup ??

Excellent write up and pictorial Dave :thumbsup
 

jeteater1

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Owned an early 70's 18' true flat Hondo that I ran often at the strip during the mid to late 70's. Typical down pedal, lockout configuration.

One hell of a fun river / ski boat, although not so good for teaching skiers since we didn't run an alternator. Total of 22 gallons (2 x 11 per side) meant a lot of gas stops.

I always appreciated the down pedal feedback, I felt it helped in obtaining and keeping a great set.

With the talk of various pedal systems, I'm wondering if anybody had any luck with a rather simple Master and Slave cylinder setup, more typical of a hydraulic clutch setup ??

Excellent write up and pictorial Dave :thumbsup



I was going to ask the same thing , My vdrive boat has trim tabs now and i want to put plates on it ,but can't put in the normal rod set up. Back of boat.jpg
 

530RL

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Really neat.

I am surprised none of the guys in the 70's didn't use a one way hydraulic lock valve to minimize the forces as opposed to excessive spring rates?
 

Flying_Lavey

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I was going to ask the same thing , My vdrive boat has trim tabs now and i want to put plates on it ,but can't put in the normal rod set up. View attachment 458541
What the hell hull is that? Looks like it may be a tunnel? If so, not sure a conventional cav plate set-up like Dave has been talking about here would work too well on that.
 

Racey

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... Denis Porter's hydraulic assist system was brilliant unfortunately after he passed I think the system went into hibernation...although his partner Paul in Canada may still be selling them, but I just don't know???...

...After Denis's system another system came on the scene that was a bit less complicated...As I am pre-op heavily medicated I am low on memory power...and can't remember much about that system???...

... Can anybody post the exact workings of the Dennis Porter system and also could someone post the exact workings of the system that followed his and who developed it???...

... Heavily medicated minds want to know...

It worked almost exactly like cable assist power steering, either a brazil or saginaw valve (though i'm not sure what actual valve he used)But basically there was some what of a soft link between the actual pedal rod, and the cav rod (where the hydraulics were attched), it floated in some springs, when you push the pedal it mis-aligns the hydraulic valve, which in turn allows hydraulic fluid to instantly flow into the correct side of the cylinder, which is connected to the valve body, which then would follow until it closes the valve, happens very fast. Basically the valve naturally seeks the neutral position because of it's orientation between the hyrdraulic cylinder and the control rod.


Edit: Hydraulic pressure could come either from a power steering pump on the motor, or most commonly one that they mounted off the front side of the top shaft of the V-drive.
 

2Driver

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Great write up. I never fully understood the whole thing until now. Man what a handful if you have big HP
 

guest hs

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What the hell hull is that? Looks like it may be a tunnel? If so, not sure a conventional cav plate set-up like Dave has been talking about here would work too well on that.

Looks like a Jetta bottom from Holmes / Horizon
 

jeteater1

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What the hell hull is that? Looks like it may be a tunnel? If so, not sure a conventional cav plate set-up like Dave has been talking about here would work too well on that.

Its a Horizon , ya it's going to be a custom plate set up .The tabs are just to slow at speed.
 

RiverDave

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I have a great follow up this with a real in depth article about The air assist system and how it works etc. Clyde sent me a bunch of photos and explained out a few things.
 

Flying_Lavey

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Its a Horizon , ya it's going to be a custom plate set up .The tabs are just to slow at speed.
Ya. But I don't think there would be any point in having them anywhere besides the center sponson. The gurus can correct me if I'm wrong but from what I took from Dave's article here is that the plates rely on the water's attraction to the boats running surface to properly work. The tunnels should have mostly air under them and the outer sponsors should be out of the water when up and running. Might be able to run a standard plate/rod set-up just narrow for just the center sponson.
 
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