Teen Driving

[Joker]

So my kid got a car for XMAS, not our choice. Got her license yesterday and insists she should be able to have a friend in the car, the law says no. So I tell her no and she comes back with " Did you ever break the law as a kid? "
Do all of you parents with teen drivers enforce this rule or am I just being overly cautious?

 

[BarryMac]

I do.

 

[Ultra26 # 1]

So my kid got a car for XMAS, not our choice. Got her license yesterday and insists she should be able to have a friend in the car, the law says no. So I tell her no and she comes back with " Did you ever break the law as a kid? "
Do all of you parents with teen drivers enforce this rule or am I just being overly cautious?

That law should have been in place when I started driving. I don't think you are being overly cautious.

 

[The Ultimatum]

My parents enforced it for both my brother and I. Neither one of us were allowed to have anyone in the car until 17.

 

[Joker]

OK, I just wanted to be sure as I'm new to this and the car thing.

 

[kevnmcd]

I never bent on that rule. My son just passed his one year with his license and now is legally able to drive others. Unfortunately, he has been in two accidents since getting his license...one rear-end and one single vehicle. When he rear-ended someone we were willing to pay cash to fix their car to keep it off his record but as soon as they started talking about neck issues and personal injury, I said call my insurance and deal with them. When I called my insurance company, the first thing they asked was anyone else in the car. If there was, they could have said your on your own as he was breaking the law per his drivers license. It is also a very expensive ticket if you got caught like one of his friends did.

 

[HavasuHank]

it seems as if there is already an intent to do it.

enforce it ... you'll only be helping her.:thumbsup

 

[kevnmcd]

One more thing to think about is what IF something was to happen while a friend was in there. How would that friend's parents react? It was a hard rule to enforce but in the end, I was glad that we stuck to our guns on it.

 

[OutCole'd]

Yep, we enforce it 100%.

 

[Joker]

it seems as if there is already an intent to do it.

enforce it ... you'll only be helping her.:thumbsup

Well she did take a kid up the block at her friends house yesterday and told us about it after I told her not to. So, yes, the intent is there.

 

[Joker]

Another reason I wish her grandfather did not buy her a car without asking us first.

 

[Vmjtc3]

That, to me, is reason to suspend driving privileges for a week.

Yep, no point in letting it slide once, that will be the excuse next time. But I did it before and you didnt do anything! The law is clear and so is the insurance company. It gets ugly if the passenger gets injured and the insurance refuses to pay as the driver was knowingly breaking the law at the time of the accident.

 

[HavasuHank]

Well she did take a kid up the block at her friends house yesterday and told us about it after I told her not to. So, yes, the intent is there.

That, to me, is reason to suspend driving privileges for a week.

1st time = stern warning to not do it again or car is gone.

2nd time = car gone for a week

3rd time = ?

maybe then she'll learn that there are rules that need to be followed

 

[97NIGHTHAWK]

Definitely enforced.

 

[mbrown2]

That, to me, is reason to suspend driving privileges for a week.

Ditto...if she does not understand no means no, I would pull it.

If something happens and she is breaking the rules of her license, kiss your personal fortunes gone as insurance will say you are on your own.

She is playing with the family nest egg not knowing the impact of her actions...

 

[RiverDave]

I'd enforce it only because of the insurance reasons..

Personally I think the law is bullshit, and should have never been put on the books.

RD

 

[rivermobster]

That, to me, is reason to suspend driving privileges for a week.

heck yeah. and explain to her Calmly WHY this has to be enforced! Im sure she wouldnt wanna see her home taken away. There are serious consiquences here.

Another reason I wish her grandfather did not buy her a car without asking us first.

jezuz. thats nuts.

 

[coz]

Personally I think the law is bullshit, and should have never been put on the books.

RD

They don't have that law here in Az, my oldest had to deal with that in Ca. but the 3 that got their licenses here don't have to :thumbsup

 

[Fltplan]

It's definitely enforceable. Our son tried to convince us that nobody cares about the rule. He got in trouble for it. Funny thing he got his pilot's license right when he turned 17 and pointed out to us that he could take friends flying, but couldn't go drive with any of em.

 

[Zaairman]

Never had any laws like that, but I was always allowed to drive with friends. BUT, it's the law, so definitely enforce it. The law is dumb though. If somebody sucks at driving and is so distracted at 16 that they can't drive with a person in the car, what makes you think they'll be any better at 17??

 

[Cole Trickle]

I agree with Forensic....

If I already had the talk with you and you disobeyed I would yank the car/license for a week.

2nd offense for a month

3rd I would sell the car so fast it would make your head spin.

Dave your wrong on this one.....

Statistics don't lie. I went to school and had friends that were involved in a horrific high speed accident (circa 92-93). 4 kids in moms mini van dicking around late at night. Driver looses control and 2 kids died and 1 had/has severe brain damage. (Thats a life changer)

To say that my dad and I had a tough go around age 15-19 would be an understatement. He refused to sign for my license and would never let me ride in a friends car. (I think part of the reason is becuse he cared and the other reason was he wanted to be an asshole)

I deal with kids and Insurance everyday.....

Accidents happen. If my kid ever hasd more than 1 ticket on his record (that means he already went to traffic school for 1) or is involved in more than 1 accident in the first 3 years I would sell his car and remove him from coverage.(driving is a privledge for the responsible)

You guys would be amazed at the tragedies that flow through an insurance agents office.

 

[RiverDave]

You just wait until your little girl is 15 and wants to go for a ride with the 16 year old that just got her license the day before. That law will seem like a gift from the hevens. That is, if kids are allowed to drive before 21 by then.

John, did u have passengers when u were young?

So now 3 kids want to goto the movies and they have to take 3 cars.. Parking? Enviroment? There's so many things wrong with it I don't even know where to start..

On that note teach your kids how to drive and it won't be a problem. Driving should be second nature like breathing to someone 16..

RD

 

[Cole Trickle]

John, did u have passengers when u were young?

So now 3 kids want to goto the movies and they have to take 3 cars.. Parking? Enviroment? There's so many things wrong with it I don't even know where to start..

On that note teach your kids how to drive and it won't be a problem. Driving should be second nature like breathing to someone 16..

RD

Would you want your 3 brothers being in the same plane or tank fighting over in the middle east. They seperate the young drivers to limit the exsposure/tradgedy.

 

[BarryMac]

I agree with Forensic....

If I already had the talk with you and you disobeyed I would yank the car/license for a week.

2nd offense for a month

3rd I would sell the car so fast it would make your head spin.

Dave your wrong on this one.....

Statistics don't lie. I went to school and had friends that were involved in a horrific high speed accident (circa 92-93). 4 kids in moms mini van dicking around late at night. Driver looses control and 2 kids died and 1 had/has severe brain damage. (Thats a life changer)

To say that my dad and I had a tough go around age 15-19 would be an understatement. He refused to sign for my license and would never let me ride in a friends car. (I think part of the reason is becuse he cared and the other reason was he wanted to be an asshole)

I deal with kids and Insurance everyday.....

Accidents happen. If my kid ever hasd more than 1 ticket on his record (that means he already went to traffic school for 1) or is involved in more than 1 accident in the first 3 years I would sell his car and remove him from coverage.(driving is a privledge for the responsible)

You guys would be amazed at the tragedies that flow through an insurance agents office.

Great post Brandin... :thumbsup

 

[Singleton]

My step-son is 3 month from license and I like the rule.
It is a PIA when all the kids want to go to a moive and each have to drive, but in the end each kid is safer then together. I think once you have kids and they get ready to drive you will change your mind.

Hell, I am open to moving the driving age up to 18, unless you have a specific need for one. Driving to school is not a need, unless school is 20 miles away.

RD - Wait until you get that first insurance quote on your child, you will start thinking differently.

 

[OutCole'd]

I agree with Forensic....

If I already had the talk with you and you disobeyed I would yank the car/license for a week.

2nd offense for a month

3rd I would sell the car so fast it would make your head spin.

Dave your wrong on this one.....

Statistics don't lie. I went to school and had friends that were involved in a horrific high speed accident (circa 92-93). 4 kids in moms mini van dicking around late at night. Driver looses control and 2 kids died and 1 had/has severe brain damage. (Thats a life changer)

To say that my dad and I had a tough go around age 15-19 would be an understatement. He refused to sign for my license and would never let me ride in a friends car. (I think part of the reason is becuse he cared and the other reason was he wanted to be an asshole)

I deal with kids and Insurance everyday.....

Accidents happen. If my kid ever hasd more than 1 ticket on his record (that means he already went to traffic school for 1) or is involved in more than 1 accident in the first 3 years I would sell his car and remove him from coverage.(driving is a privledge for the responsible)

You guys would be amazed at the tragedies that flow through an insurance agents office.

I agree 100%. I have a son that's been driving for about a year and a daughter that will be getting her permit in a couple of weeks.

Break the rule and I sell the car.

 

[Singleton]

I agree 100%. I have a son that's been driving for about a year and a daughter that will be getting her permit in a couple of weeks.

Break the rule and I sell the car.

Wife and I also added the following rules, and have been telling him this since 7th grade.

GPA (on 4.0 scale) > 3.25 you get license.
GPA > 3.5 we will add a car to the house that you can use.
Any tickets - no driving period
Go to College and Get Degree - I will get you a car, that is yours

Current GPA is north of 3.8 and is on track to make me add car to household and no problems at all with him. Great kid all around.

 

[Joker]

Wife and I also added the following rules, and have been telling him this since 7th grade.

GPA (on 4.0 scale) > 3.25 you get license.
GPA > 3.5 we will add a car to the house that you can use.
Any tickets - no driving period
Go to College and Get Degree - I will get you a car, that is yours

Current GPA is north of 3.8 and is on track to make me add car to household and no problems at all with him. Great kid all around.

Thats a great plan, but seeing how someone bought her a car, it changes things up a bit from what we were thinking.

 

[lebel409]

If my kid didn't at least TRY to lie and say he wasn't going to break any laws I'd be very concerned.

I remember thinking I was a safe driver...got a good grade in drivers ed, did good in the driving test, been riding a motorcycle and driving a tractor for a while...got my learners permit and drove the Hodaka to the market with my dad following me...and got a ticket. Dad said he was scared shitless watching me, I never saw the problem...

On the other hand, statistics are only a math problem to justify a point of veiw.

Statistically tomatoes are poisonous to goldfish. 100% of gold fish die if you put them in a solution of tomatoes puree. Stupid, but show that statistics can be very misleading.

Red lights are a law, speed limits are laws, headlights at night is a law. If she chooses openly to not obey the law, then she needs a Schwinn, not a Chevy...

 

[PVHCA]

I'd like to know the law on this since my son starts driving this year. I was told there is a probation period where no kids can drive with a newly licensed 16 y.o. for 3 months, after that restrictions apply, ie. to school is allowed. I'd like to here from someone knowledgable, ie Brandon for the correct answer.

 

[Cole Trickle]

Wife and I also added the following rules, and have been telling him this since 7th grade.

GPA (on 4.0 scale) > 3.25 you get license.
GPA > 3.5 we will add a car to the house that you can use.
Any tickets - no driving period
Go to College and Get Degree - I will get you a car, that is yours

Current GPA is north of 3.8 and is on track to make me add car to household and no problems at all with him. Great kid all around.

I won't be that tough on my kids for grades.....(I will make him pay for the difference of what insurance would have been with good grades)

imho stellar grades don't equal a safe driver or resposible teenager. On the flip side if my kid is a punk and can't take direction or follow laws he will be footing it until he gets his own lic. and saves for a car.

My kid will understand how to drive a stick by probably age 10. I won't teach him on the streets but out in the dessert on quads,bikes and buggies.We will start some kind of relatively cheap project so he grasps how the mechanics work and can take pride in helping to build his own car/truck. By the time he hits 16 I have no doubt he would be a great driver. Still dosent mean I will turn him loose If I don't feel 100% confident.

 

[Cole Trickle]

I'd like to know the law on this since my son starts driving this year. I was told there is a probation period where no kids can drive with a newly licensed 16 y.o. for 3 months, after that restrictions apply, ie. to school is allowed. I'd like to here from someone knowledgable, ie Brandon for the correct answer.

This is if you get your license prior to age 18

In California, the first year of a Provisional (teenager's) license forbids driving with friends or after 11PM unless accompanied by a California-licensed driver over the age of 25.

 

[WTDecker]

On that note teach your kids how to drive and it won't be a problem. Driving should be second nature like breathing to someone 16..
RD

At 16, driving isn't 2nd nature, sorry. They think they know how to drive but thats BS.

 

[Singleton]

I won't be that tough on my kids for grades.....(I will make him pay for the difference of what insurance would have been with good grades)

imho stellar grades don't equal a safe driver or resposible teenager. On the flip side if my kid is a punk and can't take direction or follow laws he will be footing it until he gets his own lic. and saves for a car.

My kid will understand how to drive a stick by probably age 10. I won't teach him on the streets but out in the dessert on quads,bikes and buggies.We will start some kind of relatively cheap project so he grasps how the mechanics work and can take pride in helping to build his own car/truck. By the time he hits 16 I have no doubt he would be a great driver. Still dosent mean I will turn him loose If I don't feel 100% confident.

Agree with your grade comment. Some kids that have great grade have no street smarts or skills that help driving.

However, once I learned what it takes to get into college these days in CA, we pushed the grade thing. Average GPA from his HS for a student going to a CU or CS school was 3.9. Then factor it will cost apx 45K a year for college, he needs the grade. If he can learn, he can apply learning to any skill he wants to do.

I want my step-son to have good grades and he does all that while in the HS Marching Band, JV Volleyball team, and is in club rock climbing and painball. I think he is well rounded and can drive the boat and truck with boat tailer just fine when needed today.

 

[Cole Trickle]

Agree with your grade comment. Some kids that have great grade have no street smarts or skills that help driving.

However, once I learned what it takes to get into college these days in CA, we pushed the grade thing. Average GPA from his HS for a student going to a CU or CS school was 3.9. Then factor it will cost apx 45K a year for college, he needs the grade. If he can learn, he can apply learning to any skill he wants to do.

I want my step-son to have good grades and he does all that while in the HS Marching Band, JV Volleyball team, and is in club rock climbing and painball. I think he is well rounded and can drive the boat and truck with boat tailer just fine when needed today.

I'm not discrediting the importance of good grades to improve the quality of life...

I was a classic underachiever (smart and not motivated) without a ton of parental help (neither parents graduated college). I never had tutors or discussions of going to college. I either got A's becuse I was intrested or C-'s becuse it was boring. I floated through with grades good enough to not get hasseled and be able to play sports. I was taught to work hard and get a job asap and move out...lol

I hope to change that with my son. If he pulls the kind of grades that your talking about 3.8+ throuought HS I would sell my soul and get a job slanging oranges on the side of the freeway to send him to a good college.

If he is like most kids and slides through with a 2.9 I will pay for junior college and set him up with loans for the last 2 years if he is still intrested in college. Too many "educated" people walking around without goals or jobs today. 20 years ago a degree meant something now there are kids working at wallmart with B.S.'s.

On another sad note a girls that currently works for me graduated with a 4.8 overall GPA. Were talking sports,Student goverment,etc.... and she didn't get 1 full academic scholarship offer. She got a couple grants giving her about enough to get books at the local JC....crazy

 

[milkmoney]

Thats a great plan, but seeing how someone bought her a car, it changes things up a bit from what we were thinking.

my ? is - do you have rights to the car as far as letting her use it even though grandpa bought it...

I won't be that tough on my kids for grades.....(I will make him pay for the difference of what insurance would have been with good grades)

imho stellar grades don't equal a safe driver or resposible teenager. On the flip side if my kid is a punk and can't take direction or follow laws he will be footing it until he gets his own lic. and saves for a car.

My kid will understand how to drive a stick by probably age 10. I won't teach him on the streets but out in the dessert on quads,bikes and buggies.We will start some kind of relatively cheap project so he grasps how the mechanics work and can take pride in helping to build his own car/truck. By the time he hits 16 I have no doubt he would be a great driver. Still dosent mean I will turn him loose If I don't feel 100% confident.

i agree with the stellar grade doesnt mean great driver statement, doesnt the insurance compnay's give discounts for stellar grades. if so they must think they are better drivers then a driver with not so stellar grades, or has that all changed since i was a kid, which was a while ago..

 

[Cole Trickle]

my ? is - do you have rights to the car as far as letting her use it even though grandpa bought it...




i agree with the stellar grade doesnt mean great driver statement, doesnt the insurance compnay's give discounts for stellar grades. if so they must think they are better drivers then a driver with not so stellar grades, or has that all changed since i was a kid, which was a while ago..

They still give a discount...Its actually a better discount today than 10+ years ago.

Statistically speaking I don't think it makes a world of difference they just all offer discounts that have been around for 100 years to be competitive with one another.

 

[RiverDave]

Would you want your 3 brothers being in the same plane or tank fighting over in the middle east. They seperate the young drivers to limit the exsposure/tradgedy.

I think once you have kids and they get ready to drive you will change your mind.

RD - Wait until you get that first insurance quote on your child, you will start thinking differently.

Singleton, let me tell you something about me.. I think the way I think, and shock value or emotions play very little in the way I think.

People have said to me "You'll change your opinions about even having one drink and driving (or the right to do so) if you knew someone that was killed..

I've known several that were killed. Including a very very good friend of mine.

You'll change your thinking when you..... Stop right there.. No I won't.

The fact is life is life.. and life is dangerous. It's a miracle I survived my youth doing all the crazy shit I did.. but ya know what? Somehow, someway I did, and I learned from my experiences and grew from them, and I feel I'm a better person because of those experiences.

I can understand why they don't want kids street racing in down town.. I can't understand why they make it illegal to touch your vehicle in anyway, and shut down all the drag strips..

Ultimately there's millions of teenage drivers out there.. and their right they probably are on some level more dangerous then a 55 year old man. But to strip their freedoms away, and just say nobody can ride with you.. I don't agree with that.

I guess I'd be willing to gamble that my kids will be raised in a fashion that they will be smart enough to know when to push the limits and when not too, and know that a car full of people in a neighborhood is not the time to do it.. Out in the dessert, or on a windy road out in the middle of nowhere? I could care less.. Kids are gonna be kids.. Let em.

This is if you get your license prior to age 18

In California, the first year of a Provisional (teenager's) license forbids driving with friends or after 11PM unless accompanied by a California-licensed driver over the age of 25.

11PM? WTF? That's a law?

At 16, driving isn't 2nd nature, sorry. They think they know how to drive but thats BS.

Growing up driving go karts / rails / quads / bikes / backing boats in the water / driving a car didn't seem like that big of a stretch to me.. LOL I dunno.

I can recall driving my whole family (Dad / Mom / Brother / friends) in a conversion van, pulling a LOADED (probably over loaded) car haulers with sand toyz, etc.. To the river / To and all around Mexico (2 days south) etc.. etc.. I can recall my brothers doing the same.

Wasn't a big deal in my family?

I know people on this board that will party all day on sunday and have their 14 - 15 year old sons drive them back to OC.. LOL (seriously)


I guess in my family we weren't limiting our exposure to tragedy well enough or something.. Or we just lived life, and didn't worry about the sky falling in every 2 seconds.

RD

 

[squirtnmyload]

rd sux

 

[akakiller]

This is if you get your license prior to age 18

In California, the first year of a Provisional (teenager's) license forbids driving with friends or after 11PM unless accompanied by a California-licensed driver over the age of 25.

11pm unless they are coming from work, school or church function... etc.

you can write them a note that says they have your permission to drive so so to school or work with them.

we had the 2 oldest drive for 6 months before they had passengers. Then they got the note to take their siblings to school or church so they could ride together.

My cousins kid had the note to take her sisters with her to school.. cop called her onnit.. too bad they were at Del Taco..

 

[RiverDave]

At del taco.. on the way to school!

RD

 

[Fltplan]

On another sad note a girls that currently works for me graduated with a 4.8 overall GPA. Were talking sports,Student goverment,etc.... and she didn't get 1 full academic scholarship offer. She got a couple grants giving her about enough to get books at the local JC....crazy

There's got to be more to that story. 4.8 gpa (didn't know that was possible) means AP classes, all those activities, she should've been getting offers from all over the place. Even with a measley 4.3 gpa (2 b's with 7 ap classes)our son has offers from all over.

 

[akakiller]

Exactly what I told her she should have said!

At del taco.. on the way to school!

RD

 

[Cole Trickle]

She could have gone anywhere .....the $$$$was the issue as she comes from a family that couldn't afford to pay for a university.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Singleton]

She could have gone anywhere .....the $$$$was the issue as she comes from a family that couldn't afford to pay for a university.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

That is what sucks. College cost so much now, without going into major debt it is difficult.

On the driving thing, CA has some very strange laws. Do they benefit the kids, not sure. All i know is i want my child safe and returned home without injury. The laws will not help that, teaching him to drive, get experience and learn about the car, IMO will.

 

[Old Man Havasu]

So my kid got a car for XMAS, not our choice. Got her license yesterday and insists she should be able to have a friend in the car, the law says no. So I tell her no and she comes back with " Did you ever break the law as a kid? "
Do all of you parents with teen drivers enforce this rule or am I just being overly cautious?

I would take the keys if my child said that.:thumbsdown

 

[Fltplan]

She could have gone anywhere .....the $$$$was the issue as she comes from a family that couldn't afford to pay for a university.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Scholorships should have been rolling in with those grades. Strange.

 

[lalhc]

My son just completed his one year of driving last week. We enforced the CA DMV rules that prevented him from driving others and driving after 11 pm. He didn't have a choice - well he did, but he didn't want the alternative. We did allow him to drive others at times, but the other parents were OK with it and they wrote a letter permitting their child to ride in my son's vehicle. It had to be for a school or work related reason. I always told my son that if he broke this rule, got in an accident, and one of his friends were seriously injured, we would be legally and financially responsible for everything. The 11 pm rule was just a good excuse to get him home early

 

[whiteworks]

At 16 years of age the shit we were doing in and to cars was not good, I'll leave it at that. Fortunately all of my friends and I were very very lucky and never got hurt.

Food for thought:

The Teen Brain: Behavior, Problem Solving, and Decision Making


No. 95; September 2008
Click here to download and print a PDF version of this document.

Many parents do not understand why their teenagers occasionally behave in an impulsive, irrational, or dangerous way. At times, it seems like they don?t think things through or fully consider the consequences of their actions. Adolescents differ from adults in the way they behave, solve problems, and make decisions. There is a biological explanation for this difference. Studies have shown that brains continue to mature and develop throughout childhood and adolescence and well into early adulthood.

Scientists have identified a specific region of the brain called the amygdala which is responsible for instinctual reactions including fear and aggressive behavior. This region develops early. However, the frontal cortex, the area of the brain that controls reasoning and helps us think before we act, develops later. This part of the brain is still changing and maturing well into adulthood.

Other specific changes in the brain during adolescence include a rapid increase in the connections between the brain cells and pruning (refinement) of brain pathways. Nerve cells develop myelin, an insulating layer which helps cells communicate. All these changes are essential for the development of coordinated thought, action, and behavior.

Changing Brains Mean that Adolescents Act Differently From Adults

Pictures of the brain in action show that adolescents? brains function differently than adults when decision-making and problem solving. Their actions are guided more by the amygdala and less by the frontal cortex. Research has also demonstrated that exposure to drugs and alcohol before birth, head trauma, or other types of brain injury can interfere with normal brain development during adolescence.

Based on the stage of their brain development, adolescents are more likely to:

?act on impulse
?misread or misinterpret social cues and emotions
?get into accidents of all kinds
?get involved in fights
?engage in dangerous or risky behavior
Adolescents are less likely to:

?think before they act
?pause to consider the potential consequences of their actions
?modify their dangerous or inappropriate behaviors
These brain differences don?t mean that young people can?t make good decisions or tell the difference between right and wrong. It also doesn?t mean that they shouldn?t be held responsible for their actions. But an awareness of these differences can help parents, teachers, advocates, and policy makers understand, anticipate, and manage the behavior of adolescents.

 

[WTDecker]

Growing up driving go karts / rails / quads / bikes / backing boats in the water / driving a car didn't seem like that big of a stretch to me.. LOL I dunno.

I can recall driving my whole family (Dad / Mom / Brother / friends) in a conversion van, pulling a LOADED (probably over loaded) car haulers with sand toyz, etc.. To the river / To and all around Mexico (2 days south) etc.. etc.. I can recall my brothers doing the same.

Wasn't a big deal in my family?

I know people on this board that will party all day on sunday and have their 14 - 15 year old sons drive them back to OC.. LOL (seriously)


I guess in my family we weren't limiting our exposure to tragedy well enough or something.. Or we just lived life, and didn't worry about the sky falling in every 2 seconds.

RD

But Dave you are talking about a very very small precentage of teens that have any experience driving anything. The high majority don't have a clue when it comes to driving at 16, even though they think they do.