Sniper EFI for boat.

[FreeBird236]

Hey Eric, How's the food at the Mississippi Pub?

 

[rivermobster]

Since we all know I'm not a bot now (thanks to Jerry Hovet's research) I can show my Electrical Engineer's chops and provide ya'll another example from ABYC.

If you use the 'base map' tables from ABYC E-11 to choose the gauge and insulation temperature rating of boat wiring, you will be wasting money 90% of the time, but the calculations you need to do compute an economically optimal gauge of wire are beyond the capabilities of electricians who are not electrical engineers. The tables in ABYC E-11 are safe 'starting values' but almost always result in oversized wiring.

Anybody want to see the tables and/or the calculations that can be used to save money on copper? Copper has gotten REALLY expensive lately...

I'm thinking those tables would be found in a app these days?

I've used this one before, but normally I just use my experience.

Try it. You'll like it. No engineering degree required.

Circuit Wizard - Apps on Google Play

Recommends wire sizes and circuit protection using ABYC and Blue Sea guidelines.

play.google.com

 

[Outdrive1]

Interesting (and last) thing I'll note before I leave this thread...did anyone here ask you about your "Use Case" i.e. "what problem are you trying to solve?"

On my river high octane marine gas is increasingly hard to find and none of our boats ever go on trailers. There are at least 15 river miles between marina gas docks so we have to deal with everything from 87 to 92 octane on any given day. So the #1 reason to upgrade IMO is to get automatic spark retard/advance from a 'knock sensor' signal feeding a MEFI to enable "Octane Adapt". Some of the newer carbuerated engines have knock-sensors but when you don't, an EFI upgrade is one way to do it (assuming the system has an input for a knock sensor).

Good luck with your decision.

By the time the knock sensor on an MEFI computer goes off, it’s too late. What a joke if you think a knock sensor is protecting the motor and changing parameters enough to safeguard an engine, What a joke.

 

[ElectroNautical]

By the time the knock sensor on an MEFI computer goes off, it’s too late. What a joke if you think a knock sensor is protecting the motor and changing parameters enough to safeguard an engine, What a joke.

Seriously? 15 milliseconds was the response time was back in the 1980s, much faster now. More than fast enough and so sensitive it can hear the knock even when the engine roar drowns it out. But if you have a better faster way to retard spark when your engine starts knocking, please share...

 

[Bigbore500r]

Seriously? 15 milliseconds was the response time was back in the 1980s, much faster now. More than fast enough and so sensitive it can hear the knock even when the engine roar drowns it out. But if you have a better faster way to retard spark when your engine starts knocking, please share...

View attachment 1374246

Tell me you don’t build or tune engines, without telling me you don’t built or tune engines…

 

[Racey]

Seriously? 15 milliseconds was the response time was back in the 1980s, much faster now. More than fast enough and so sensitive it can hear the knock even when the engine roar drowns it out. But if you have a better faster way to retard spark when your engine starts knocking, please share...

View attachment 1374246

Omg dude you can't be serious.... Wow.

The mefi has magic powers that can snuff out the charge after detonation and knock have already happened

 

[ElectroNautical]

Seriously? 15 milliseconds was the response time was back in the 1980s, much faster now. More than fast enough and so sensitive it can hear the knock even when the engine roar drowns it out. But if you have a better faster way to retard spark when your engine starts knocking, please share...

View attachment 1374246

Whoops, sorry Paul. It's been suggested to me that I should use simpler language for my explanations. The term 'millisecond' means thousandths of a second. At 4,000 RPM there are 4000/60sec/minute=66.7 revolutions per second, and that is 14.99 milliseconds per revolution, and since the knock sensor will 'hear' a knock in 5ms (1/3rd of a revolution) and respond faster than once per revolution, I'm not sure how much faster it would need to be? If pre-ignition can happen only once per cylinder-per rev (worst case) how fast do you think it should be? Microseconds?

No, but riddle me this oh mysterious one - where does your MEFI get its spark advance values from? A crystal ball? Jesus? It uses a table, just like when it determines fueling .

You’re gonna dig this hole to China …. Unfortunately you’ll discover they use tables in their EFI programs too

Ok @Bigbore500r -- From the 1980's. Look, no Tables! And please don't call me Jesus...

 

[ElectroNautical]

Hey Eric, How's the food at the Mississippi Pub?

I'm sorry, I don't know that. Try asking a different way. (LoL, I'm a bot, remember?)

 

[ElectroNautical]

We need @ElectroNautical to go over and assert his dominant knowledge in the moon landing thread.

Thanks, but I checked it out and there are smarter people than me ( @paradise and @92562) who seem to be dealing with the problem there quite effectively.

 

[ElectroNautical]

Omg dude you can't be serious.... Wow.

The mefi has magic powers that can snuff out the charge after detonation and knock have already happened

No, 'dude' not magic and no need to invoke the Almighty. Just Moore's Law circa 1986....which appears to somehow be a 'Wow' moment for you. Lotsa 'Digital Dotardry' in your posts, eh? And OBTW, even magic powers can't predict when you'll need to retard spark after putting low-octane fuel into a high compression engine. Someone or something needs to detect a knock first right? If 15 milliseconds (in 1986) wasn't fast enough, who or what is? You? God? Biff Tannen?

 

[ElectroNautical]

I'm sorry, I don't know that. Try asking a different way. (LoL, I'm a bot, remember?)

That said, I'm sure it is not as good as Martini Bay

 

[Bigbore500r]

Despite all contrary findings……I’m back to thinking this is a bot

 

[FreeBird236]

That said, I'm sure it is not as good as Martini Bay

I'm sorry I wouldn't know, never heard of it.

 

[4Waters]

@ElectroNautical did you find it?

 

[Racey]

No, 'dude' not magic and no need to invoke the Almighty. Just Moore's Law circa 1986....which appears to somehow be a 'Wow' moment for you. Lotsa 'Digital Dotardry' in your posts, eh? And OBTW, even magic powers can't predict when you'll need to retard spark after putting low-octane fuel into a high compression engine. Someone or something needs to detect a knock first right? If 15 milliseconds (in 1986) wasn't fast enough, who or what is? You? God? Biff Tannen?

Lol how many firing events have already happened in 12.5 mSec at 5000rpm?

 

[Bigbore500r]

By the time the knock sensor on an MEFI computer goes off, it’s too late. What a joke if you think a knock sensor is protecting the motor and changing parameters enough to safeguard an engine, What a joke.

 

[mash on it]

@Racey what is 30?

Dan'l

 

[Racey]

@Racey what is 30?

Dan'l

Complete cycle time at 5000 is 24 mSec, so 8 firing events happen every 24 mSec. That means you are gonna deliver the same fueling and spark to at least 3, if not 4 additional cylinders before any action is taken...

Even if it responds immediately after the 5 mSec knock duration window you are definitely sending the same timing to the next cylinder as it's already fired. And the cylinder after that has almost certainly began the dwell charge for its coil which you can't stop early so it's going too...

This is why you can't rely on closed loop knock control for anything other than a mild stock motor. Shit will already be breaking if the motor is making any substantial power.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Complete cycle time at 5000 is 24 mSec, so 8 firing events happen every 24 mSec. That means you are gonna deliver the same fueling and spark to at least 3, if not 4 additional cylinders before any action is taken...

Even if it responds immediately after the 5 mSec knock duration window you are definitely sending the same timing to the next cylinder as it's already fired. And the cylinder after that has almost certainly began the dwell charge for its coil which you can't stop early so it's going too...

This is why you can't rely on closed loop knock control for anything other than a mild stock motor. Shit will already be breaking if the motor is making any substantial power.

Yep. Not to mention, they pull way more timing than is necessary when knock is detected, then the decay rate in stock EFI programs is so slow to feed timing back in the motor loses a ton of power and falls on its face. All bad shit if it's happening constantly., like a roller coaster under sustained load. The knock sensors are there as a safety net here and there, and to stop massive detonation events due to poor fuel, etc. They are not for constant timing sweeps to determine max advance in real time. Relying on knock sensors to set and adjust the engines spark advance is absolute ......... "retardation"

 

[Racey]

Yep. Not to mention, they pull way more timing than is necessary when knock is detected, then the decay rate in stock EFI programs is so slow to feed timing back in the motor loses a ton of power and falls on its face. All bad shit if it's happening constantly., like a roller coaster under sustained load. The knock sensors are there as a safety net here and there, and to stop massive detonation events due to poor fuel, etc. They are not for constant timing sweeps to determine max advance in real time. Relying on knock sensors to set and adjust the engines spark advance is absolute ......... "retardation"

The exhaust valves really like it when you pull 10 + degrees of timing under load as well. It does wonders for the EGT's

 

[rivermobster]

At 6k RPM...

The exhaust valve will open/close FIFTY times per second.

Kinna crazy to think about.

 

[DaveH]

At 6k RPM...

The exhaust valve will open/close FIFTY times per second.

Kinna crazy to think about.

yes. how many times does the injector fire for that same scenario at 6k rpm? the bot would answer.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

This thread is nutz! 3 or 4 of RDP's most respected and knowledge people vs some dude that stumbled in here wearing a gold chain. I wish we could get Shan to do a fly by.

 

[ElectroNautical]

Complete cycle time at 5000 is 24 mSec, so 8 firing events happen every 24 mSec. That means you are gonna deliver the same fueling and spark to at least 3, if not 4 additional cylinders before any action is taken...

Even if it responds immediately after the 5 mSec knock duration window you are definitely sending the same timing to the next cylinder as it's already fired. And the cylinder after that has almost certainly began the dwell charge for its coil which you can't stop early so it's going too...

This is why you can't rely on closed loop knock control for anything other than a mild stock motor. Shit will already be breaking if the motor is making any substantial power.

I gave an example from a 'mild stock' 1986 Buick V6 that redlines at 4,200rpm to illustrate the principle, in the context of 'why upgrade from carb to efi'.

You've used the numbers from a 1986 V6 system to make your point, applied those numbers to a 5,000 rpm V8, and so all you've written is garbarge. GI-GO.

Like I said, you need to pay more attention to silicon advancements and rely less on what you once learned from systems that were designed forty years ago.

There have been at least four enhancements to Knock Sensor systems that reduce response times to microseconds and all of them were in MEFI-4 by 2001. Can you tell us what even ONE of them is?

I've uploaded the answers to the cloud share I provided you previously...

"One does not need to be old to be a dotard...one only needs to stop learning."
-unattributed.

 

[4Waters]

I gave an example from a 'mild stock' 1986 Buick V6 that redlines at 4,200rpm to illustrate the principle, in the context of 'why upgrade from carb to efi'.

You've used the numbers from a 1986 V6 system to make your point, applied those numbers to a 5,000 rpm V8, and so all you've written is garbarge. GI-GO.

Like I said, you need to pay more attention to silicon advancements and rely less on what you once learned from systems that were designed forty years ago.

There have been at least four enhancements to Knock Sensor systems that reduce response times to microseconds and all of them were in MEFI-4 by 2001. Can you tell us what even ONE of them is?

I've uploaded the answers to the cloud share I provided you previously...

"One does not need to be old to be a dotard...one only needs to stop learning."
-unattributed.

Did you find it?

 

[Racey]

I gave an example from a 'mild stock' 1986 Buick V6 that redlines at 4,200rpm to illustrate the principle, in the context of 'why upgrade from carb to efi'.

You've used the numbers from a 1986 V6 system to make your point, applied those numbers to a 5,000 rpm V8, and so all you've written is garbarge. GI-GO.

Like I said, you need to pay more attention to silicon advancements and rely less on what you once learned from systems that were designed forty years ago.

There have been at least four enhancements to Knock Sensor systems that reduce response times to microseconds and all of them were in MEFI-4 by 2001. Can you tell us what even ONE of them is?

I've uploaded the answers to the cloud share I provided you previously...

"One does not need to be old to be a dotard...one only needs to stop learning."
-unattributed.

Lol you go right ahead and hook your 'real time' MEFI up to knock sensors, no O2 sensors, and let it's magical 'self adjusting' powers keep the engine alive

 

[ElectroNautical]

Lol you go right ahead and hook your 'real time' MEFI up to knock sensors, no O2 sensors, and let it's magical 'self adjusting' powers keep the engine alive

Don't have to, been running that way for 21 years now, on three different boats.

How about one of the four things that GM did with MEFI that reduced response times to microseconds?


Crickets...more crickets.

 

[Bigbore500r]

I gave an example from a 'mild stock' 1986 Buick V6 that redlines at 4,200rpm to illustrate the principle, in the context of 'why upgrade from carb to efi'.

You've used the numbers from a 1986 V6 system to make your point, applied those numbers to a 5,000 rpm V8, and so all you've written is garbarge. GI-GO.

Like I said, you need to pay more attention to silicon advancements and rely less on what you once learned from systems that were designed forty years ago.

There have been at least four enhancements to Knock Sensor systems that reduce response times to microseconds and all of them were in MEFI-4 by 2001. Can you tell us what even ONE of them is?

I've uploaded the answers to the cloud share I provided you previously...

"One does not need to be old to be a dotard...one only needs to stop learning."
-unattributed.

 

[ElectroNautical]

This thread is nutz! 3 or 4 of RDP's most respected and knowledge people vs some dude that stumbled in here wearing a gold chain. I wish we could get Shan to do a fly by.

The problem is that the 3 or 4 you are referring to are all masterful when it comes to the shiny spinning metal bits and the 'dude' (bot) knows about the silicon bits also, which gives him an advantage. Think about metallurgy for a minute...have their been any major advances in combustion engine metallurgy in the last 20 years that have made as much difference as the electronics have? Valve springs? Nope. Bearings? Nope. Cast Iron? Nope. Forged or Billet pistons? Nope. If there have been any game-changing advancements, I'm sure @Racey or @DaveH or others could tell us all about them.

Probably the only metallurgical advance worth noting is 'lost foam' casting that allowed aluminum engine blocks to take on complex internal shapes and reduced the weight of 4-stroke gasoline engines used in cars, but unless I missed it none of the '3 or 4' are using them in boats. The engine blocks they build on are 25 year old technology, or older.

The 'discussions' on manual tuning of LUTs vs Real-Time computation illustrate my point. If you don't understand silicon advancements (Moore's Law, etc.) you can't possibly appreciate how important they have been or why they work so differently (and so much better) than before.

I didn't come here to make anyone feel stupid, but given all the rude and dismissive crap and the personal attacks...well lets just say 'elbows will fly'. I always give as good as I get...at a minimum.

 

[Bigbore500r]

The problem is that the 3 or 4 you are referring to are all masterful when it comes to the shiny spinning metal bits and the 'dude' (bot) knows about the silicon bits also, which gives him an advantage. Think about metallurgy for a minute...have their been any major advances in combustion engine metallurgy in the last 20 years that have made as much difference as the electronics have? Valve springs? Nope. Bearings? Nope. Cast Iron? Nope. Forged or Billet pistons? Nope. If there have been any game-changing advancements, I'm sure @Racey or @DaveH or others could tell us all about them.

Probably the only metallurgical advance worth noting is 'lost foam' casting that allowed aluminum engine blocks to take on complex internal shapes and reduced the weight of 4-stroke gasoline engines used in cars, but unless I missed it none of the '3 or 4' are using them in boats. The engine blocks they build on are 25 year old technology, or older.

The 'discussions' on manual tuning of LUTs vs Real-Time computation illustrate my point. If you don't understand silicon advancements (Moore's Law, etc.) you can't possibly appreciate how important they have been or why they work so differently (and so much better) than before.

I didn't come here to make anyone feel stupid, but given all the rude and dismissive crap and the personal attacks...well lets just say 'elbows will fly'. I always give as good as I get...at a minimum.

Show me your silicone bits!

Your wrong on everything you just posted, which is a consistent pattern at least…

There are many cutting edge engines developed specifically for boats over the past 25 years, incorporating major design advancements in everything you just posted. Merc QC4V, 500hp Merc outboards, Illmore MV570 - pick your poison. They all use tables in their programming too….

You understand neither side of the spectrum - mechanical or engine management. The advice and info your posting is baseless garbage that’s gonna blow somebodies engine up if they followed it.

You came in spreading mass disinformation as a self-proclaimed guru. You immediately started attacking members, posting strange theories about their livelyhoods, their family ties, even stating that River Dave will know who you are and can vouch for some of this nonsense .

Personally - I can’t stand to see people get burned by bad advice, so yea - I called you out, and continue to do so. I hope you don’t turn a wrench on anyone’s boat where your at.

Im still hoping you’re a bot, mainly because I can’t believe how sideways your replies can get. It’s like a Charles Manson interview mixed with an old episode of Horsepower TV

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

So when is the CAN BUS network switching to silicon optronics to save weight from copper wiring?

 

[4Waters]

The problem is that the 3 or 4 you are referring to are all masterful when it comes to the shiny spinning metal bits and the 'dude' (bot) knows about the silicon bits also, which gives him an advantage. Think about metallurgy for a minute...have their been any major advances in combustion engine metallurgy in the last 20 years that have made as much difference as the electronics have? Valve springs? Nope. Bearings? Nope. Cast Iron? Nope. Forged or Billet pistons? Nope. If there have been any game-changing advancements, I'm sure @Racey or @DaveH or others could tell us all about them.

Probably the only metallurgical advance worth noting is 'lost foam' casting that allowed aluminum engine blocks to take on complex internal shapes and reduced the weight of 4-stroke gasoline engines used in cars, but unless I missed it none of the '3 or 4' are using them in boats. The engine blocks they build on are 25 year old technology, or older.

The 'discussions' on manual tuning of LUTs vs Real-Time computation illustrate my point. If you don't understand silicon advancements (Moore's Law, etc.) you can't possibly appreciate how important they have been or why they work so differently (and so much better) than before.

I didn't come here to make anyone feel stupid, but given all the rude and dismissive crap and the personal attacks...well lets just say 'elbows will fly'. I always give as good as I get...at a minimum.

You won't find it because it doesn't exist, you are nothing but a troll

 

[Sharp Shooter]

The problem is that the 3 or 4 you are referring to are all masterful when it comes to the shiny spinning metal bits and the 'dude' (bot) knows about the silicon bits also, which gives him an advantage. Think about metallurgy for a minute...have their been any major advances in combustion engine metallurgy in the last 20 years that have made as much difference as the electronics have? Valve springs? Nope. Bearings? Nope. Cast Iron? Nope. Forged or Billet pistons? Nope. If there have been any game-changing advancements, I'm sure @Racey or @DaveH or others could tell us all about them.

Probably the only metallurgical advance worth noting is 'lost foam' casting that allowed aluminum engine blocks to take on complex internal shapes and reduced the weight of 4-stroke gasoline engines used in cars, but unless I missed it none of the '3 or 4' are using them in boats. The engine blocks they build on are 25 year old technology, or older.

The 'discussions' on manual tuning of LUTs vs Real-Time computation illustrate my point. If you don't understand silicon advancements (Moore's Law, etc.) you can't possibly appreciate how important they have been or why they work so differently (and so much better) than before.

I didn't come here to make anyone feel stupid, but given all the rude and dismissive crap and the personal attacks...well lets just say 'elbows will fly'. I always give as good as I get...at a minimum.

Interesting.

And with all due respect you’re quite boring. Maybe you can drop those elbows and show us something we can all appreciate and relate too. Are you pretty good on a speed ski or maybe have a sweet triple engine offshore boat that goes 170? How’s your offroad game? Go ahead and wow us!

 

[Racey]

Show me your silicone bits!

Your wrong on everything you just posted, which is a consistent pattern at least…

There are many cutting edge engines developed specifically for boats over the past 25 years, incorporating major design advancements in everything you just posted. Merc QC4V, 500hp Merc outboards, Illmore MV570 - pick your poison. They all use tables in their programming too….

You understand neither side of the spectrum - mechanical or engine management. The advice and info your posting is baseless garbage that’s gonna blow somebodies engine up if they followed it.

You came in spreading mass disinformation as a self-proclaimed guru. You immediately started attacking members, posting strange theories about their livelyhoods, their family ties, even stating that River Dave will know who you are and can vouch for some of this nonsense .

Personally - I can’t stand to see people get burned by bad advice, so yea - I called you out, and continue to do so. I hope you don’t turn a wrench on anyone’s boat where your at.

Im still hoping you’re a bot, mainly because I can’t believe how sideways your replies can get. It’s like a Charles Manson interview mixed with an old episode of Horsepower TV

Even big blocks have had major parts and material advancements in all the engine internals in the last 20 years. This is why is why 20 years a very stout marine engine on race fuel was making 1400hp max reliably, and now they can do 2,000+

Heads, valvetrain, pistons, rods, cranks, etc etc.

Mr silicone is talking about all these IC advances on a cheap 25+ year old dinosaur ECU.

 

[RiverDave]

Don’t ya still thinking it’s a bot?

Uninformed maybe but not a bot?

 

[rivrrts429]

The problem is that the 3 or 4 you are referring to are all masterful when it comes to the shiny spinning metal bits and the 'dude' (bot) knows about the silicon bits also, which gives him an advantage. Think about metallurgy for a minute...have their been any major advances in combustion engine metallurgy in the last 20 years that have made as much difference as the electronics have? Valve springs? Nope. Bearings? Nope. Cast Iron? Nope. Forged or Billet pistons? Nope. If there have been any game-changing advancements, I'm sure @Racey or @DaveH or others could tell us all about them.

Probably the only metallurgical advance worth noting is 'lost foam' casting that allowed aluminum engine blocks to take on complex internal shapes and reduced the weight of 4-stroke gasoline engines used in cars, but unless I missed it none of the '3 or 4' are using them in boats. The engine blocks they build on are 25 year old technology, or older.

The 'discussions' on manual tuning of LUTs vs Real-Time computation illustrate my point. If you don't understand silicon advancements (Moore's Law, etc.) you can't possibly appreciate how important they have been or why they work so differently (and so much better) than before.

I didn't come here to make anyone feel stupid, but given all the rude and dismissive crap and the personal attacks...well lets just say 'elbows will fly'. I always give as good as I get...at a minimum.

Imagine this forum being a large fully catered backyard gathering in a very nice neighborhood.

It’s a party of friends/families who have known each other for years.

Now imagine you’re the neighbor friend of maybe a month or two who shows up because you had a loose invite based on common interests.

All of a sudden you come barreling into the backyard party and start complaining to everyone, who you don’t know, about the shitty free food and how you don’t like the beer and how you don’t like the music and on and on.

The core group is like… who shit in this guys cheerios…?

Then you’re upset and accusatory because nobody knows who the fuck you are and your telling the host (RD) not to tell the partygoers who you are. You appear to have a shitty attitude based on your behavior and you act like everyone should embrace you because you think you can throw a better gathering than anyone else.

Basically you’re a party crasher. Pump your fucking brakes and learn to have a discussion and interact and socialize with people.

Learn how the written word and inflection works.

Don’t shit on our party and pretend the party you throw is better. That’s how forums work. Know your audience.

 

[RiverDave]

Imagine this forum being a large fully catered backyard gathering in a very nice neighborhood.

It’s a party of friends/families who have known each other for years.

Now imagine you’re the neighbor friend of maybe a month or two who shows up because you had a loose invite based on common interests.

All of a sudden you come barreling into the backyard party and start complaining to everyone, who you don’t know, about the shitty free food and how you don’t like the beer and how you don’t like the music and on and on.

The core group is like… who shit in this guys cheerios…?

Then you’re upset and accusatory because nobody knows who the fuck you are and your telling the host (RD) not to tell the partygoers who you are. You appear to have a shitty attitude based on your behavior and you act like everyone should embrace you because you think you can throw a better gathering than anyone else.

Basically you’re a party crasher. Pump your fucking brakes and learn to have a discussion and interact and socialize with people.

Learn how the written word and inflection works.

Don’t shit on our party and pretend the party you throw is better. That’s how forums work. Know your audience.

I have no idea who this person is.. I read his post though and while I can see how someone could jump to that conclusion that isn’t what it said.

 

[Eliminator21vdrive]

The problem is that the 3 or 4 you are referring to are all masterful when it comes to the shiny spinning metal bits and the 'dude' (bot) knows about the silicon bits also, which gives him an advantage. Think about metallurgy for a minute...have their been any major advances in combustion engine metallurgy in the last 20 years that have made as much difference as the electronics have? Valve springs? Nope. Bearings? Nope. Cast Iron? Nope. Forged or Billet pistons? Nope. If there have been any game-changing advancements, I'm sure @Racey or @DaveH or others could tell us all about them.

Probably the only metallurgical advance worth noting is 'lost foam' casting that allowed aluminum engine blocks to take on complex internal shapes and reduced the weight of 4-stroke gasoline engines used in cars, but unless I missed it none of the '3 or 4' are using them in boats. The engine blocks they build on are 25 year old technology, or older.

The 'discussions' on manual tuning of LUTs vs Real-Time computation illustrate my point. If you don't understand silicon advancements (Moore's Law, etc.) you can't possibly appreciate how important they have been or why they work so differently (and so much better) than before.

I didn't come here to make anyone feel stupid, but given all the rude and dismissive crap and the personal attacks...well lets just say 'elbows will fly'. I always give as good as I get...at a minimum.

I truly can't understand why you are still here......

 

[Bigbore500r]

Don’t ya still thinking it’s a bot?

Uninformed maybe but not a bot?

I go back and forth….

Part of me thinks he is, but part of me thinks he’s just manic and misinformed.

The way “it” combs the forum and brings up strange info, references to random businesses, 500 page documents linked to cloud servers, etc is pretty strange. The choice of language at times is also very strange.

If you were to tell AI to argue anything that it was presented, I feel the results look pretty similar.

But….they are out there, he could be at the kitchen table right now researching his next 10,000 word essay!

 

[mattyc]

Question for @Bigbore500r @Racey @DaveH

Let's say you're setting up a new engine or an existing engine that has undergone multiple upgrades and needs a complete re tune, I dont think application matters here, boat, sandcar, truck whatever.

You're doing your tuning work in August, but the engine will likely be used in January, or a higher altitude or any number of environmental differences. Do you need to wait until January to continue your work? Does the engine / vehicle need to be present in each of these environment scenarios for a proper tune? Or can you apply data from one scenario to another with some math or conversion? How would you go about it?

 

[rivrrts429]

I have no idea who this person is.. I read his post though and while I can see how someone could jump to that conclusion that isn’t what it said.

Whatever we call it the thing is weird AF, creepy.

 

[rivermobster]

Whatever we call it the thing is weird AF, creepy.

It reminds me of when forums First became a thing...

The main goal was to "one up" everyone else. Ridiculous arguments that would go off in every direction, except what the original topic was about!

My dad can kick your dad's ass. Dick measuring contests. I'm right and you're wrong. Just Stupid childish bullshit!

Clearly this thing hasn't evolved yet.

It's the Cro-Magnon man of modern social media.

 

[Bigbore500r]

It reminds me of when forums First became a thing...

The main goal was to "one up" everyone else. Ridiculous arguments that would go off in every direction, except what the original topic was about!

My dad can kick your dad's ass. Dick measuring contests. I'm right and you're wrong. Just Stupid childish bullshit!

Clearly thing thing hasn't evolved yet.

It's the Cro-Magnon man of modern social media.

Nope. Thing thing definately has not evolved

 

[Racey]

Question for @Bigbore500r @Racey @DaveH

Let's say you're setting up a new engine or an existing engine that has undergone multiple upgrades and needs a complete re tune, I dont think application matters here, boat, sandcar, truck whatever.

You're doing your tuning work in August, but the engine will likely be used in January, or a higher altitude or any number of environmental differences. Do you need to wait until January to continue your work? Does the engine / vehicle need to be present in each of these environment scenarios for a proper tune? Or can you apply data from one scenario to another with some math or conversion? How would you go about it?

Depends on what ECU. And forced induction or NA.

On new motec stuff if you follow the proper tuning process you will get pretty close as their back end air mass modeling is very good. You may make some minor adjustments for Ambient pressure and charge cooling. They won't be massive though, very small adjustments.

If you are running a turbo setup with boost control you may have to do some adjustments to the boost control system as the turbine side is much more efficient at higher altitude (less ambient pressure for the exhaust exiting the turbo to push against) but the flip side is the compressor has to work a little harder to make the boost. This is something the Pike's Peak cars have really gotten dialed in over the years. The Ambient pressure and temp is a massive swing across those ~10 minutes.

All in all it's always a good idea on something critical to check everything over if the environment is massively different. This is where good data logging is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Flatsix66]

Back on the Knock sensor topic, just trying to square what i'm reading with what I thought I understood.

According to Ford, The 2024 Ford Bronco's 2.3-liter EcoBoost® 4-cylinder engine produces 300 horsepower and 325 pound-feet of torque with premium fuel. With regular gas, the engine produces 275 horsepower and 315 pound-feet of torque.

The explanation for how this is done: Ford's EcoBoost 2.3 engine uses a calculation called the Octane Adjust Ratio (OAR) to detect the octane of the fuel being used. The OAR is adjusted based on whether the engine detects detonation, and over time the computer learns the octane level of the fuel. The OAR is fully adjusted for higher power at -1.0, and fully retarded at 1.0.

 

[Racey]

Back on the Knock sensor topic, just trying to square what i'm reading with what I thought I understood.

According to Ford, The 2024 Ford Bronco's 2.3-liter EcoBoost® 4-cylinder engine produces 300 horsepower and 325 pound-feet of torque with premium fuel. With regular gas, the engine produces 275 horsepower and 315 pound-feet of torque.

The explanation for how this is done: Ford's EcoBoost 2.3 engine uses a calculation called the Octane Adjust Ratio (OAR) to detect the octane of the fuel being used. The OAR is adjusted based on whether the engine detects detonation, and over time the computer learns the octane level of the fuel. The OAR is fully adjusted for higher power at -1.0, and fully retarded at 1.0.

This is easily done when you have a production engine package and you can hurt the motors on the dyno during development, and you need to squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of it to meet some arbitrary EPA standards running the thing lean as possible.

When you have a one off marine engine with a supercharger, knock events break pistons and hurt cylinder walls so fast that a knock sensor can't be relied on to save you. You tune the engine to realistic and safe levels, not trying to run it on the ragged edge and hoping the knock sensor will save you

Knock sensors are basically a microphone, so the other issue is they can pick up drivetrain noise that isn't knock, like the gears in the drivetrain etc. it's very brave to push the engine to the knock threshold and see what the sensors' reading says.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Back on the Knock sensor topic, just trying to square what i'm reading with what I thought I understood.

According to Ford, The 2024 Ford Bronco's 2.3-liter EcoBoost® 4-cylinder engine produces 300 horsepower and 325 pound-feet of torque with premium fuel. With regular gas, the engine produces 275 horsepower and 315 pound-feet of torque.

The explanation for how this is done: Ford's EcoBoost 2.3 engine uses a calculation called the Octane Adjust Ratio (OAR) to detect the octane of the fuel being used. The OAR is adjusted based on whether the engine detects detonation, and over time the computer learns the octane level of the fuel. The OAR is fully adjusted for higher power at -1.0, and fully retarded at 1.0.

Using this type of spark advance / knock retard logic that your stock Ecoboost uses is fine for OEM stock vehicles. The tune is very conservative, and they need to be able to cope with shit gas that you might encounter in the middle of nowhere. When it detects a pattern of detonation, or unacceptable levels of detonation, it reverts to a low octane spark table that is more conservative, so its not just “bouncing off” the knock sensors and advancing / retarding against detonation.

I'm not sure how the new Ford ecm tables are structured on their late model stuff, but GM stuff uses 2 different spark tables, depending on octane. If it detects knock above a certain threshold / consistency, it will revert to the low octane table and stay there and operate. It will attempt to advance timing and "test" against the table every so often, to see if it can get away with more timing. If it is successful in reverting back to the high octane spark values, it will revert to running from the high-octane table after the parameters are met (how many times was it successful in running from the high-octane table, how long has it been since it detected detonation using high octane table, etc . . .)

It's different than just running too much timing, and consistently relying on the motor running "on" the knock sensor's command to retard timing. all the time.

A "ping" here and there with a stock motor is one thing, but a performance motor hammering away against the knock sensors and going "ping PING PING - Retard. . . . ping PING....retard" is super hard on stuff and like Racey said in another post, is real hard on both pistons, and exhaust valves.

Knock sensors in a performance application are best used as a tuning aid, and a last ditch safety net for when shit goes wrong - not something you want to rely on for constant spark control under load, especially WOT..........even if it is in "CONTROLLED IN REAL TIME BY MEFI”

When the GM stuff is tuned for a performance application, here's the basic steps done to keep the motor from relying on the knock sensors, and to get timing in a safe range across the map:

• Low octane spark table is changed to match the high octane spark table (basically, eliminating this variable for tuning)
• The vehicle is ran thru different driving conditions, and the knock retard is logged via a histogram that mimics the layout of the main spark table
• Once enough reliable data has been collected under different conditions, the histogram will show the cells that experienced knock retard, and the average amount of timing that was pulled to eliminate detonation. Example - Histogram log will look like this:
• 
• The histogram table then gets "copy / pasted" over the main spark tables and applied as a modifier to the existing values, in the cells (cylinder air mass and RPM) that were an issue. For example - At 4000rpm, under a Cylinder air mass of 0.54 g/cyl, timing would be reduced by 0.4 degrees.
• The car is ran and logged again, until the knock retard histogram is acceptable. It's normal to pick up a small ping here and there, and the table I pasted above is very mild. But when you see knock all over the map, and its having to pull alot of timing - that needs to be fixed.
• When starting fresh with a performance engine, the spark tables are set conservative, and then you "creep up" on the sweet spot. You don't want to data log the car, see a shitload of knock, and then work backwards and reduce timing. Sometimes, the Grim Reaper only knocks once . . .

 

[rivermobster]

Using this type of spark advance / knock retard logic that your stock Ecoboost uses is fine for OEM stock vehicles. The tune is very conservative, and they need to be able to cope with shit gas that you might encounter in the middle of nowhere. When it detects a pattern of detonation, or unacceptable levels of detonation, it reverts to a low octane spark table that is more conservative, so its not just “bouncing off” the knock sensors and advancing / retarding against detonation.



I'm not sure how the new Ford ecm tables are structured on their late model stuff, but GM stuff uses 2 different spark tables, depending on octane. If it detects knock above a certain threshold / consistency, it will revert to the low octane table and stay there and operate. It will attempt to advance timing and "test" against the table every so often, to see if it can get away with more timing. If it is successful in reverting back to the high octane spark values, it will revert to running from the high-octane table after the parameters are met (how many times was it successful in running from the high-octane table, how long has it been since it detected detonation using high octane table, etc . . .)



It's different than just running too much timing, and consistently relying on the motor running "on" the knock sensor's command to retard timing. all the time.

A "ping" here and there with a stock motor is one thing, but a performance motor hammering away against the knock sensors and going "ping PING PING - Retard. . . . ping PING....retard" is super hard on stuff and like Racey said in another post, is real hard on both pistons, and exhaust valves.



Knock sensors in a performance application are best used as a tuning aid, and a last ditch safety net for when shit goes wrong - not something you want to rely on for constant spark control under load, especially WOT.

Even if it is in "CONTROLLED IN REAL TIME BY MEFI”



When the GM stuff is tuned for a performance application, here's the basic steps done to keep the motor from relying on the knock sensors, and to get timing in a safe range:

• Low octane spark table is changed to match the high octane spark table (basically, eliminating this variable for tuning)
• The vehicle is ran thru different driving conditions, and the knock retard is logged via a histogram that mimics the layout of the main spark table
• Once enough reliable data has been collected under different conditions, the histogram will show the cells that experienced knock retard, and the average amount of timing that was pulled to eliminate detonation. Looks like this:
• View attachment 1375133
  
• 
  
• The histogram table then gets "copy / pasted" over the main spark tables and applied as a modifier to the existing values, in the cells (cylinder air mass and RPM) that were an issue. For example - At 4000rpm, under a Cylinder air mass of 0.54 g/cyl, timing would be reduced by 0.4 degrees.
• The car is ran and logged again, until the knock retard histogram is acceptable. It's normal to pick up a small ping here and there, and the table I pasted above is very mild. But when you see knock all over the map, and its having to pull alot of timing - that needs to be fixed.
• When starting fresh with a performance engine, the spark tables are set conservative, and then you "creep up" on the sweet spot. You don't want to data log the car, see a shitload of knock, and then work backwards and reduce timing. Sometimes, the Grim Reaper only knocks once . . .

I remember the first time I looked at a HP Tuner, and all the various tables in there...

What about different temperatures? What about extended hill climbs? What about elevation? What about what gear you are in? What about towing/load control? What about shit you didn't even think about, until you looked at all those fucking tables!!! Fuck!!!

You change one thing in one table, and it affects 40 different tables that relate to that table. One mis-step, and goodbye engine.

Fuck that nonsense...

Gimme a carb, a box of jets, a drill set, and some power valves, some distributor springs, and I'm good.

 

[Bigbore500r]

I remember the first time I looked at a HP Tuner, and all the various tables in there...

What about different temperatures? What about extended hill climbs? What about elevation? What about what gear you are in? What about towing/load control? What about shit you didn't even think about, until you looked at all those fucking tables!!! Fuck!!!

You change one thing in one table, and it affects 40 different tables that relate to that table. One mis-step, and goodbye engine.

Fuck that nonsense...

Gimme a carb, a box of jets, a drill set, and some power valves, some distributor springs, and I'm good.

Hahaha....yea it's gnarly to look at when you first crack it open. Theres alot of tables that exist, but don't need to be changed because the scenarios they deal with aren't encountered, or don't need to be altered.

You can make a mess of stuff in a hurry though, and make a bad carb seem like a sewing machine

 

[rivermobster]

Hahaha....yea it's gnarly to look at when you first crack it open. Theres alot of tables that exist, but don't need to be changed because the scenarios they deal with aren't encountered, or don't need to be altered.

You can make a mess of stuff in a hurry though, and make a bad carb seem like a sewing machine

Right? Just ask Alex!

(Did I type that out loud? Damit!)