Sad state of auto repair

[caribbean20]

Just to be clear, my beef was not about cost. I’m a big boy, do not begrudge a man trying to make a living. Everyone’s gotta eat.

Only, if person can find a solution with a simple internet search, a competent mechanic should have an index of known issues affecting HIS BRAND. That’s how I would dam sure operate if I were in the business, and that’s the value of brand specific owner forums, which is where I found my answers.

 

[pkbullet]

It was forced on by the dealer franchise. Dealers have to be up to date on "image" to get profitable cars to sell. Uniform shops are part of that image. A lot of techs were pissed they had to remove their expensive boxes from the shop and work out of a built in box. Problem solving type techs. I was involved with a couple dozen of those "image updates" and never once did a dealer spend money on Snap-On equipment. It was actually the opposite. All they did was complain about the cost... just like their customers.

Shit, when I built my Honda store I bought the whole package at NADA just for the vanity. And yes, it was all Snap On. It really wasn’t that bad of a price and not a single tech had an issue. I got this box as part of the package.

 

[monkeyswrench]

How much would you charge for a can bus issue that you had to disconnect every computer module in the car and yes there were 28 of them? (Many of them buried behind trim panels that took a lot of Labor to remove)

There was a diagnostic trouble code, that component was not the problem (lanewatch camera code) but it was connected to the 27 other components.... The dash lights were on for a communication issue with no clue as to where it was.

$150? $300? $600?

The problem was finally solved it was a soft connection meaning a connector was not locked into place at the driver's power seat control module. There was no code for the power seat control module.

But hey it only took eight hours to figure out!

How much do you charge for 8 hours when the final repair is remaking a connection?

Dodge had an issue with the Cummins auto having shift issues, 01 and 02 I think. The problem was the charge wire from the alternator giving interference to the ground circuit for the trans. Official fix was reroute charge wire...on paper "alternator performance/replace"...F'rs charged for the alternator to justify labor costs. It was all over the web when I was trying to diag an issue with my own truck. Sure as shit, moved the wire and the stutter went away...with same alternator.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Or the dealer might of spent millions on the facility and wanted his shop to look uniform. Build a Bay products featuring snap on boxes give a nice look.

Hey there are exceptions to every rule but what I am saying is not false and speaking as a mechanic with a lot of mechanic friends, those types of facilties typically dont pay enough to bring in and retain the talent and then all it becomes is a CYA facility. Just my observations.

 

[WhatExit?]

I can tell the master mechanics on this forum are very good because they clearly spend more time using tools than tapping the Return key

 

[77charger]

True if it doesnt show up on the ecu from codes they wont fix it, Last time i had an issue on a work truck dealer said trans is fine no codes.You could take the truck for a 15 minute drive and the torque converter would make noise intermittently .

dealer said just made noise but went away no codes,Took to independant shop just said change trans they took pan apart lot of metal and said tc was definitely bad.

 

[pkbullet]

Hey there are exceptions to every rule but what I am saying is not false and speaking as a mechanic with a lot of mechanic friends, those types of facilties typically dont pay enough to bring in and retain the talent and then all it becomes is a CYA facility. Just my observations.

We have always been in a market where we have to grow our own techs, last thing we would want to do is make that investment and then lose talent.

 

[grumpy88]

How much would you charge for a can bus issue that you had to disconnect every computer module in the car and yes there were 28 of them? (Many of them buried behind trim panels that took a lot of Labor to remove)

There was a diagnostic trouble code, that component was not the problem (lanewatch camera code) but it was connected to the 27 other components.... The dash lights were on for a communication issue with no clue as to where it was.

$150? $300? $600?

The problem was finally solved it was a soft connection meaning a connector was not locked into place at the driver's power seat control module. There was no code for the power seat control module.

But hey it only took eight hours to figure out!

How much do you charge for 8 hours when the final repair is remaking a connection?

So your saying the customer unplugged it and failed to rescure it properly? If not it sounds like bad work from the build that should not be the owners fault .

 

[TimeBandit]

So your saying the customer unplugged it and failed to rescure it properly? If not it sounds like bad work from the build that should not be the owners fault .

No, it was never fully "snapped" into place on the assembly line. Is that the tech's fault? The car was out of warranty by over a year.

All the wonderful "features" come with repair cost and added complexity.

My mother in law's 2018 Hyundai left outside rearview mirror will no longer tilt up/down. It is out of warranty. We take power mirrors for granted, but how much is a new mirror with installation?

 

[HALLETT BOY]

The shops in my area that did “ Free Diagnostics “ eventually went out of business or were 30 -50K behind in rent. They did have a lot of cars in the lot though.

 

[grumpy88]

No, it was never fully "snapped" into place on the assembly line. Is that the tech's fault? The car was out of warranty by over a year.

All the wonderful "features" come with repair cost and added complexity.

My mother in law's 2018 Hyundai left outside rearview mirror will no longer tilt up/down. It is out of warranty. We take power mirrors for granted, but how much is a new mirror with installation?

I guess that's the quandary in life . Shit build by a human being . Warranty is clear that it's not the manufacturer problem anymore do to time even though it was a build quality issue . I wonder if the world would be a better place if corporate in this example stepped in and did what was right

 

[Shlbyntro]

I guess that's the quandary in life . Shit build by a human being . Warranty is clear that it's not the manufacturer problem anymore do to time even though it was a build quality issue . I wonder if the world would be a better place if corporate in this example stepped in and did what was right

The problem with "idiot proof" electrical connectors is now they let idiots do the wiring.

fwiw, I have never seen a company step up like Mercury/Mercruiser does even years and years after warranty has expired. Their customer loyalty program is 2nd to none imo

 

[WhatExit?]

When manufacturers like Stellantis are putting out $60,000+ vehicles with unreliable small diesels how can we expect dealers to fix them under warranty?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The problem with "idiot proof" electrical connectors is now they let idiots do the wiring.

fwiw, I have never seen a company step up like Mercury/Mercruiser does even years and years after warranty has expired. Their customer loyalty program is 2nd to none imo

Ask Skinny Tire AH about their loyalty .

For those prices it better be second to none.

 

[Angler]

The so called mechanics at auto dealerships, are just part changers. No code, no dice...

 

[bonesfab]

The problem with idiot proof, they just make dumber idiots.

 

[fast99]

The so called mechanics at auto dealerships, are just part changers. No code, no dice...

What would you do if the issue couldn't be duplicated and didn't toss a code?

Our shop charges 1/2 hr for initial diagnosis. Depending on how involved and who the customer is we may call for additional time. If they decline, go on to the next one.

The complexity of automobiles expands every year. There is no way any tech can keep up with a single brand let alone all of them. All these features come at a cost; they break.

Today, I would never recommend anyone goes into this business. People still think techs are grease monkey mechanics. Some might be but most aren't. For the investment in tools, recurring education and destruction of my back and joints the pay is horrible. Were's my loan forgiveness? I have 100k in tools.

 

[bonesfab]

What would you do if the issue couldn't be duplicated and didn't toss a code?

Our shop charges 1/2 hr for initial diagnosis. Depending on how involved and who the customer is we may call for additional time. If they decline, go on to the next one.

The complexity of automobiles expands every year. There is no way any tech can keep up with a single brand let alone all of them. All these features come at a cost; they break.

Today, I would never recommend anyone goes into this business. People still think techs are grease monkey mechanics. Some might be but most aren't. For the investment in tools, recurring education and destruction of my back and joints the pay is horrible. Were's my loan forgiveness? I have 100k in tools.

and that’s why I stick with my old junk I can work on.

 

[just_floatin]

One year later you too can be a skilled technician. Took me two years to get my certificate from Arizona Automotive Institute back in the 80s.

 

[Nanu/Nanu]

I wish i had a vehicle a dealership would be willing to touch...

But nope poor nanu has to turn his own wrenches.

 

[TimeBandit]

UTI training, 51 weeks for only $40,000. and nobody will pay you more than minimum wage when you get out.

And no need to "pass" your classes, just keep the payments flowing!

 

[monkeyswrench]

I wish i had a vehicle a dealership would be willing to touch...

But nope poor nanu has to turn his own wrenches.

All my stuff is a bare minimum of a decade old...I don't have to worry about dealer costs. Hell, I have a Saturn in the fleet, and they're extinct

 

[just_floatin]

All my stuff is a bare minimum of a decade old...I don't have to worry about dealer costs. Hell, I have a Saturn in the fleet, and they're extinct

Same here. My fleet. 98, 02, 03, 05, 68, 64. I turn wrenches on my own inventory weekly. Just received one of two orders today for one of my projects. My best personal investment tool by far is an Atlas Car lift. Saves my back and beats crawling under the jack stands.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Same here. My fleet. 98, 02, 03, 05, 68, 64. I turn wrenches on my own inventory weekly. Just received one of two orders today for one of my projects. My best personal investment tool by far is an Atlas Car lift. Saves my back and beats crawling under the jack stands.
View attachment 1161809

This past week I just did pads, rotors, 4 new tires and lower control arms on my daughter's Vue. About 700$ and a few hours total. It's not a pimp ride, but looks decent and kicks ass in snow being AWD. I bought it for 1000$ 2 years ago, replaced the thermostat, struts and a wheel bearing. All said and done, 2k for 2 years isn't bad. Daughter likes it, and can afford to feed it still

 

[Nanu/Nanu]

All my stuff is a bare minimum of a decade old...I don't have to worry about dealer costs. Hell, I have a Saturn in the fleet, and they're extinct

Haha Saturn they had a cool concept with the pre painted panels. I have a tow rig that is only a few years old but i wont discuss for legal reasons and dealers wont touch for legal reasons...

My suby and jeep are over ten years old so... I try to keep up on my PM stuff so it doesn't break so hard.

 

[530RL]

Anyone who thinks it was better 40 or 50 years ago versus today never sat on the side of the road with the hood up steaming, or snorting the smell of a burnt alternator just trying to make it across the desert from Phoenix to San Diego. And to expect air conditioning the entire trip was way out of line.

Those things were homing pigeons making a straight beeline to the dealer on a regular basis. And the shrugs of “can’t make it do that when we drive it” were just as frequent. But sure as shit it would fail again 60 miles down the highway.

I’ll take todays vehicles and problems over the old stuff any day. We don’t need six tow trucks, six mechanics and six loaner cars on a modern car rally, but we sure do on a vintage car rally.

 

[Nanu/Nanu]

This past week I just did pads, rotors, 4 new tires and lower control arms on my daughter's Vue. About 700$ and a few hours total. It's not a pimp ride, but looks decent and kicks ass in snow being AWD. I bought it for 1000$ 2 years ago, replaced the thermostat, struts and a wheel bearing. All said and done, 2k for 2 years isn't bad. Daughter likes it, and can afford to feed it still

Today i serviced my transmission on my tow rig. But while i did that i addressed some other potential issues so one i changed my pan out for one that has a drian plug in it yay!

Two on the 68 rfe transmission cooler lines theres a billet block. That block has a thermostat valve in there that cycles the oil back until its hot enough to warrant going to the cooler. Well that t-stat will fail and never send oil to the cooler at all.
So i installed just a billet block with solid pathways so the cooler is used 100% of the time

 

[monkeyswrench]

Today i serviced my transmission on my tow rig. But while i did that i addressed some other potential issues so one i changed my pan out for one that has a drian plug in it yay!

Two on the 68 rfe transmission cooler lines theres a billet block. That block has a thermostat valve in there that cycles the oil back until its hot enough to warrant going to the cooler. Well that t-stat will fail and never send oil to the cooler at all.
So i installed just a billet block with solid pathways so the cooler is used 100% of the time

That block is a failure waiting to happen! Seen shops replace the trans, and flush the lines and say it's good...uh, nope. The later transmissions have the cooler setup, liquid heat exchanger deal. Only seen one fail so far, but it's an SOB to replace.

Anyone who thinks it was better 40 or 50 years ago versus today never sat on the side of the road with the hood up steaming, or snorting the smell of a burnt alternator just trying to make it across the desert from Phoenix to San Diego. And to expect air conditioning the entire trip was way out of line.

Those things were homing pigeons making a straight beeline to the dealer on a regular basis. And the shrugs of “can’t make it do that when we drive it” were just as frequent. But sure as shit it would fail again 60 miles down the highway.

I’ll take todays vehicles and problems over the old stuff any day. We don’t need six tow trucks, six mechanics and six loaner cars on a modern car rally, but we sure do on a vintage car rally.

Modern engineering is simply amazing. From the machining tolerances to the processors controlling the vehicle, really some impressive stuff. I've worked on a 1908 Locomobile, 4 cylinders and near 400 cubic inches...about 60hp and a total loss oiling system on the exposed valvetrain. A factory stock 08 civic is 140hp, and around 110ci...and nowhere near as temperamental! The evolution is impressive.

 

[rrrr]

Same here. My fleet. 98, 02, 03, 05, 68, 64. I turn wrenches on my own inventory weekly. Just received one of two orders today for one of my projects. My best personal investment tool by far is an Atlas Car lift. Saves my back and beats crawling under the jack stands.
View attachment 1161809

That turn signal cam reminded me of rebuilding the steering column in my '66 F100 a few years ago. It's a three on the tree. I bought the parts from LMC, I think there were about fifteen total IIRC. Bunch of little pieces, shims, and springs. It was quite a bit of work.

But the labor was cheap.

 

[Orange Juice]

2007, 2012, 2016…….all are past 5 years old.

You need a restoration shop, not a dealer.

 

[Yoshiro]

There's a vital life skill that Millenials and younger do not possess, it's called Critical Thinking Skills. This is why we are doomed. X Gen and older had the ability to figure things out.

 

[bonesfab]

2007, 2012, 2016…….all are past 5 years old.

You need a restoration shop, not a dealer.

The newest I own is an 88. I do have a few with more modern drivelines, but not all the other complicated creature comforts.

 

[Badchoices03]

A while back I had an issue with my truck, it randomly shut off on me while driving, scared the crap out of me, pulled to stop, turned the truck off and back on and it fired right back up...after that I would randomly have no starts...took it to the dealer and they had it for a few days and said the couldn't get it replicate the problem and it wasnt throwing codes, so nothing they could do...took it home, kept doing the same thing randomly...took it to a different dealer, pulled into their service lot, turned the truck off...truck wouldnt start back up...left it there, they had it for 2 weeks, I even allowed the tech to drive it home to see if it would do it again, which it didnt of course and they couldnt diagnose...picked the truck up again...2 days later...no start...

Now I am not a mechanic, I can do brakes, oil changes, simple part replacements, etc....but I knew it had to be something electrical, so just started poking around under the hood checking wires, not really knowing what i was looking for...opened the fuse box and noticed the whole fuse box was a little loose, which made me dig deeper into it...realized there is a bolt that screws the fuse box down that also looked like it had a ground wire coming off of it...that bolt was almost completely backed off....I tightened that bolt down...truck fired up...and I have never had the problem again...

Why couldn't a two different Ford dealerships figure that out??

 

[Gonefishin5555]

Daughters Tacoma was throwing codes for air leakage in the gas tank. They did a smoke test and then replaced the gas tank and some other part. Well it intermittently still throws the codes and then the guy at the smog check tells me I need a new gas cap and shows me the bad seal. . It’s the first thing they tell you to change when those codes come up

 

[COCA COLA COWBOY]

And that is why those Lemon Law Attorneys are killing it. I know a few people that almost trade in their vehicles with the lemon laws than dealing with the headaches.

 

[jetboatperformance]

There's a vital life skill that Millenials and younger do not possess, it's called Critical Thinking Skills. This is why we are doomed. X Gen and older had the ability to figure things out.

Yes and No , Apprenticeships and vocational education can make a real difference , we all likely agree "book learning" can build knowledge but hard core hands on makes a huge difference when I left dealer work and started JBP I still did general Auto repair to supplement my operation , I took High School Auto shop students for several years under the then state ROP funded programs all but one went on to Auto related careers (one went LEO) even my Son whos a master Tech/machinist worked for His junior and senior years half days under that type program. Learning with hands in and mentoring teaches "critical thinking" and diagnostic skills ,,,,,,,,,, To know why something is failed or not working is just as important and that "its" just not working BUT they also have to WANT to learn

 

[C-2]

A while back I had an issue with my truck, it randomly shut off on me while driving, scared the crap out of me, pulled to stop, turned the truck off and back on and it fired right back up...after that I would randomly have no starts...took it to the dealer and they had it for a few days and said the couldn't get it replicate the problem and it wasnt throwing codes, so nothing they could do...took it home, kept doing the same thing randomly...took it to a different dealer, pulled into their service lot, turned the truck off...truck wouldnt start back up...left it there, they had it for 2 weeks, I even allowed the tech to drive it home to see if it would do it again, which it didnt of course and they couldnt diagnose...picked the truck up again...2 days later...no start...

Now I am not a mechanic, I can do brakes, oil changes, simple part replacements, etc....but I knew it had to be something electrical, so just started poking around under the hood checking wires, not really knowing what i was looking for...opened the fuse box and noticed the whole fuse box was a little loose, which made me dig deeper into it...realized there is a bolt that screws the fuse box down that also looked like it had a ground wire coming off of it...that bolt was almost completely backed off....I tightened that bolt down...truck fired up...and I have never had the problem again...

Why couldn't a two different Ford dealerships figure that out??

Similar on the Excursion. Random stalls. I researched it, culprit was either bad fuel pump or water damaged fuse block.
I took it to a AAA Ford dealer, told them the symptoms, they said ut was the fuel pump. I asked how they knew it/tested, they said fuel pump, they never gave an answer. So they changed it out.
Didn't fix it.
I again mentioned the well-documented water damaged fuse blocks on Ford vans and trucks due to a crappy windshield gaskets. They dismissed my idea/research.
AAA guaranty - back tot he dealer. Here ya go then, have fun fixing it.
6-weeks later - dealer says we are stumped. Engineers in Detroit can't figure it out.
I get my truck from them.
I pull the fuse block and send it to a guy in VA who rebuilds water damaged fuse blocks. It's his niche, the Ford gaskets suck.
Within a week he returned the block to me, I installed it...done. $150 including shipping.
Truck never stalled again.

My daughter's Jeep has several issues, but I don't trust the dealer.
I've researched the "Jeep Christmas Tree Dash" and the fixes dealers have performed are shocking, and unnecessary.
Whenever ALL the gauges light up on the Jeep, I remove the negative cable/clamp and re-set/re-tighten. It's a Jeep, and ultimately bouncing around rattles the cable loose again. When I have some time I will replace the clamp...but I'm not taking it to the dealer.
Also throwing the evap canister leak code. Again, I will fix it myself as I've read about the $$$$ of parts thrown at that fix.

Just seems silly that they refuse to consider the vast, free database of real-world solutions known as the Internet.

 

[fast99]

Daughters Tacoma was throwing codes for air leakage in the gas tank. They did a smoke test and then replaced the gas tank and some other part. Well it intermittently still throws the codes and then the guy at the smog check tells me I need a new gas cap and shows me the bad seal. . It’s the first thing they tell you to change when those codes come up

We see cars in the shop everyday with multiple issues. Actually, it is more the rule than the exception. EVAP system codes are one of those generic codes similar to a P0300. Can have many causes. Do you know for sure the gas tank wasn't bad or the cap was when they worked on it? Have not worked in a shop with a gas cap tester, might be more common in other areas but not here. Buy you are right, the first thing I look at is the cap. If the customer doesn't want to pay for diagnosis, we tell them to buy a cap it's relatively cheap. On the odd car might fix it, usually not.

 

[SBMech]

If you think "diagnosis" is hooking up a scan tool and pulling codes, you should just go stick your head up your ass now, and save everyone the trouble of watching you proclaim more idiotic shit.

If you think rates are expensive now, just wait, it's only just getting started. My local dealers are at $185-$275 an hour for repairs. That's the rate from Honda (the least expensive) to Maserati (highest). Most inde's are between $150 to $215. It's only going to keep going up, as the actual mechanics/technicians keep retiring and the largest knowledge pool grows smaller. Get ready for rates to get into the mid 200's even for inde's in the next decade.

Why should a field of expertise that requires you to provide your own tools and education still make less than 100k a year.

We have to know more far more than other trades. Not to mention 100k plus in hand tools to have a decent tool set.

Hell plumbers, Industrial HVAC guys, even construction pays those rates, why not auto repair?

 

[was thatguy]

$150 is 2 measures of Pappy van winkle 20!

Priorities…

 

[caribbean20]

2007, 2012, 2016…….all are past 5 years old.

You need a restoration shop, not a dealer.

Ain’t that the truth, but all of them are under 60,000 miles, the Jeep has only 30. I tend to maintain and keep my junk a long time, always have.

And BTW, have you TRIED to buy a new vehicle lately? I have (Escalade) and just gave up for another year until we see more cars on the lots.

 

[was thatguy]

How much would you charge for a can bus issue that you had to disconnect every computer module in the car and yes there were 28 of them? (Many of them buried behind trim panels that took a lot of Labor to remove)

There was a diagnostic trouble code, that component was not the problem (lanewatch camera code) but it was connected to the 27 other components.... The dash lights were on for a communication issue with no clue as to where it was.

$150? $300? $600?

The problem was finally solved it was a soft connection meaning a connector was not locked into place at the driver's power seat control module. There was no code for the power seat control module.

But hey it only took eight hours to figure out!

How much do you charge for 8 hours when the final repair is remaking a connection?

 

[was thatguy]

fwiw, I have never seen a company step up like Mercury/Mercruiser does even years and years after warranty has expired. Their customer loyalty program is 2nd to none imo

 

[Shlbyntro]

View attachment 1161961

dont know what your laughing at, Merc has literally sent me 10s of thousands of dollars worth of fuel system parts at zero cost to my customers for engines that are more than 5 and sometimes 10 years out of warranty. I would say no questions asked but they do ask me about 4 questions

 

[was thatguy]

dont know what your laughing at, Merc has literally sent me 10s of thousands of dollars worth of fuel system parts at zero cost to my customers for engines that are more than 5 and sometimes 10 years out of warranty. I would say no questions asked but they do ask me about 4 questions

I’m laughing because I know people who couldn’t even get their brand new purchase warranty extended while experiencing fuel system discrepancies from the moment of delivery.

 

[Orange Juice]

Ain’t that the truth, but all of them are under 60,000 miles, the Jeep has only 30. I tend to maintain and keep my junk a long time, always have.

And BTW, have you TRIED to buy a new vehicle lately? I have (Escalade) and just gave up for another year until we see more cars on the lots.

I noticed the dealer collision lot was packed full.
It would suck to have an accident, and have to wait 3 months for the repair, because of parts.

It took 6 months for me to commit to buying a car, and I shopped it every week.
$8k down on $50k out the door. 3yr 0% financing $1200+ a month. That was in May, just before everybody adjusted their new car interest rates.

I’ll probably be almost ready when the the new electric Charger hits the dealer lots. I’m planning on a 2025.

 

[Shlbyntro]

I’m laughing because I know people who couldn’t even get their brand new purchase warranty extended while experiencing fuel system discrepancies from the moment of delivery.

I dont know who their mechanics were, but it likely has more to do with the points of contact between Merc and the service shop than it does with actual Merc policy

 

[was thatguy]

I dont know who their mechanics were, but it likely has more to do with the points of contact between Merc and the service shop than it does with actual Merc policy

It has more to do with a particular power package I think.

 

[Gonefishin5555]

We see cars in the shop everyday with multiple issues. Actually, it is more the rule than the exception. EVAP system codes are one of those generic codes similar to a P0300. Can have many causes. Do you know for sure the gas tank wasn't bad or the cap was when they worked on it? Have not worked in a shop with a gas cap tester, might be more common in other areas but not here. Buy you are right, the first thing I look at is the cap. If the customer doesn't want to pay for diagnosis, we tell them to buy a cap it's relatively cheap. On the odd car might fix it, usually not.

It had the same gas cap on it at the time so it was bad as the seal had 1/4" gap in it. The smog check guy is either correct or doesn't know anything.. I don't know about the gas tank but they did $1k of repairs and it passed smog at the time but since then the check engine light comes on intermitantly. So it has to pass smog again and I checked the codes and it was the same ones as 18 months ago, I replace the gas cap and so far no codes. Getting it smogged this week. I kinda feel like replacing the gas cap should have been automatic at least inspect it and they would probably have replaced it with oem cap and its cheap and eliminates a potential problem.