Rotting fuel tanks

[ltbaney1]

So I brought my new to me 86 Howard whaler home to do the yearly service last week. I noticed the storage unit REEKED of gas when I opened the door. Didn't really think anything of as it has sealed in there since October, towed it back to HB and brought it over to M&M marine, he called a few hours later and asked if I could come by, he needed to talk to me. :eekThe boat has Fiberglass tanks in the floor, and they found gelled fuel in the bilge. Diagnoses rotted tanks from the ethanol:grumble: quotes from multiple places between 3 and 5 grand to cut out the floor remove the tanks, make new aluminum tanks and put it all back together. I've already pumped out the remaining fuel. But I'm looking at the boat thinking to myself I have plenty of room for 2 saddle tanks, if I want to go quick and dirty, or do I blow my river fund for this summer on redoing the floor having tanks made and installed. I can do the floor removal and re install but would still have to pay about 2 grand for tanks and having them foamed in. Sorry for the long post, but I can't decide which way to go. Thanks In advance for any opinions or options.

 

[AzGeo]

has the measurements for saddle tanks in your boat .

When our shop did the 'custom V-drive rigging' for Howard Brown, I ALWAYS rejected his 'glass tanks' and installed IMCO aluminum side tanks .

As you may or may not know, the fuel filler cap location was 'set in stone', since Howard copied a Spectra, the nonskid had PLUGS in the mold where the Spectra had fuel fills .

The IMCO tanks have the fills in the correct places, and you will only need to add 4 small bulkheads (2 for each tank to bolt to) run the senders and GROUNDS, hook up the fuel lines and go .

 

[Chopperman]

Just my .02, but I'd do it right and cut the old tank out and have one built and put back in. I know it sucks and isn't cheap, but peace of mind knowing that a job is done right means a lot. Only downside is you might find more bad that needs fixed. Could be a can of worms you never wanted to open, but if you like the boat and plan on having it for a while it could be worth it. I'm not sure how much further ahead you be by putting in saddle tanks. The money spent on that install could end up being close to what you'd spend on replacing the old fiberglass one, unless you've already got tanks that fit and all the rest of the stuff you'll need for the install.

 

[spectracular]

So I brought my new to me 86 Howard whaler home to do the yearly service last week. I noticed the storage unit REEKED of gas when I opened the door. Didn't really think anything of as it has sealed in there since October, towed it back to HB and brought it over to M&M marine, he called a few hours later and asked if I could come by, he needed to talk to me. :eekThe boat has Fiberglass tanks in the floor, and they found gelled fuel in the bilge. Diagnoses rotted tanks from the ethanol:grumble: quotes from multiple places between 3 and 5 grand to cut out the floor remove the tanks, make new aluminum tanks and put it all back together. I've already pumped out the remaining fuel. But I'm looking at the boat thinking to myself I have plenty of room for 2 saddle tanks, if I want to go quick and dirty, or do I blow my river fund for this summer on redoing the floor having tanks made and installed. I can do the floor removal and re install but would still have to pay about 2 grand for tanks and having them foamed in. Sorry for the long post, but I can't decide which way to go. Thanks In advance for any opinions or options.

Do it yourself with new floor tanks. 3-5k seems outrageous.

 

[plaster dave]

Get a sec and third opinion on the cost. I would call So-Cal Speed and Marine and have Mario look at it. His number is in my signature [emoji1313]

 

[AzGeo]

Just my .02, but I'd do it right and cut the old tank out and have one built and put back in. I know it sucks and isn't cheap, but peace of mind knowing that a job is done right means a lot. Only downside is you might find more bad that needs fixed. Could be a can of worms you never wanted to open, but if you like the boat and plan on having it for a while it could be worth it. I'm not sure how much further ahead you be by putting in saddle tanks. The money spent on that install could end up being close to what you'd spend on replacing the old fiberglass one, unless you've already got tanks that fit and all the rest of the stuff you'll need for the install.

Floor tanks are smaller and cost just as much . Cutting out the 'fuel permeated tank material' is a MUST, but cost of one VS the other is much less cost with saddle tanks .

The 'estimate' of $3K to $5K is pure BS, even for replacement floor tanks . Anyone who 'cuts out the old glass tanks' will not cut out the BOTTOM of those tanks, that makes the hull bottom really thin .

Once you have done a few, you'll know what 'doing it right is' .................

 

[TBulger]

Had a Whaler with similar problem, not fiberglass tank though; removing tank and replacing with new aluminum tank was 4k.

 

[Chopperman]

Floor tanks are smaller and cost just as much . Cutting out the 'fuel permeated tank material' is a MUST, but cost of one VS the other is much less cost with saddle tanks .

The 'estimate' of $3K to $5K is pure BS, even for replacement floor tanks . Anyone who 'cuts out the old glass tanks' will not cut out the BOTTOM of those tanks, that makes the hull bottom really thin .

Once you have done a few, you'll know what 'doing it right is' .................

I wasn't implying that he cut or even grind out anything, especially the hull/bilge, unless he's very experienced in glass work, most folks aren't. Getting that fuel soaked glass out is an absolute must, any kind of new resin and glass being put in have no chance if not. Hopefully it hasn't hurt the hulls integrity. I just meant remove the bad tank and replace with a metal tank. When I said cut, I meant getting the floor out of the way. I should have been more specific I guess. If it had a belly tank I'd want to keep it that way, but that's just me. I understand that may not always be possible but I'd certainly try if possible. The estimate did seem high to me as well. I don't have much experience in swapping out tanks, but I do have a lot of fiberglass and composite experience. Seems like it'd be just as much work putting in saddle tanks though. 2 tanks, 2 new gas caps and potential holes to cut and prep, new hardware x2, plumbing, new senders, fuel valve, etc... I know a lot of you guys have built a lot of boats and I'm not challenging anyone's expertise by any means. Just thought it'd be more work putting in saddles.

 

[Willie B]

... Price seems a little high but then shop time can be a bit outrageous...
... I replaced the side tanks in my Spectra 24 Imco built the tanks I did the labor including the bulkheads done properly with West systems I think I'm right around a total of $1500 into the whole job...
... There's also a guy in Havasu that builds tanks but his name escapes me for the moment???... Might be Tank It in Havasu ???...

 

[Kylemenz1]

Saddle tanks!!

 

[Sharp Shooter]

Do what Azgeo is telling you. If you're not wanting to do it yourself, get ahold of Scott Schatz in socal (corona) or Joey Cucci in Havasu.

Scott Schatz
S & S Performance and Marine
230 N Sherman Ave
Corona, California
(951) 403-7775



Joey Cucci
D' Cucci Boats
1085 Aviation Dr,
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86404
(928) 505-5900

 

[spotondl]

My 76 Howard had glass belly tanks & I blew my turbo engine because the glass tanks rotted & plugged my fuel system causing a fatal lean condition.
Brian at "Tank It" built new aluminum tanks for me, Advantage Marine installed them for me. It was a package deal and it was appx $2k.

I lost about 10 gallons of capacity all said & done. Not happy about it at all but it was what it was.

 

[HowardRC]

I bought a 1990 Howard RC last October that has the upgraded saddle tanks from IMCO. I love the fact that I do not have to worry about the old glass tanks being a problem. Just my .02, but I would stay away from going back with new glass tanks.

 

[nrbr]

Does it have carpeted floors and does that price include redoing that after the tank swap?? If so that price doesn't seem far off to me. I just had imco do 2 new tanks for my spectra 30 gal each . 1400$ fyi

 

[Quicksilver]

... Price seems a little high but then shop time can be a bit outrageous...
... I replaced the side tanks in my Spectra 24 Imco built the tanks I did the labor including the bulkheads done properly with West systems I think I'm right around a total of $1500 into the whole job...
... There's also a guy in Havasu that builds tanks but his name escapes me for the moment???...

KSH Marine in Lake Havasu built my tanks. I cut out my old fiberglass tanks and dropped them off to him to use for measurement and he had my new tanks done very quickly. He installed senders and the price was very reasonable.

 

[Racey]

Do it yourself with new floor tanks. 3-5k seems outrageous.

Not really when you consider removing all the interior, cutting out the floors, any glass repair associated with the leak (has it wicked into the stringers etc?) The cost of the new tanks, installation, plumbing changes, and re-installation of all the interior.

Like AZGEO says, if you can i'd maybe consider switching to side saddle tanks, if possible, this kinda depends on how the interior and side panel layout is.

 

[Willie B]

... Some have been able to cut the tops off the floor tanks...measure for new aluminum tanks drop the new aluminum tanks into the remaining structure of the old fiberglass tanks ... If there is not a tremendous amount of damage to the old tanks and what's around them Might be the cheapest way out ???...

 

[jetboatperformance]

I saw the onsequential issue was touched on a few posts back, Also sorry to hear of the unfortuitous experience with your failing fuel tanks Probably adding "fuel to the fire" however just as important is the "syrup" like residue that can be a generated byproduct of the tank deterioration, we have done several of these (Jets and Vdrives) in all cases these boats had related issues in the fuel pumps lines filters and even the engine , A recent Campbell , when inspected had a thick black sticky coating inside the intake manifold, head ports and pistons that needed to be disassembled and cleaned/remediated Tom

example cylinder

Combustion chamber

Out with the old

New Tanks we installed

*FWIW including Tanks and Labor 4K up is realistic assuming no engine damage

 

[138]

That is a crazy price....cut out the floor yourself make a corrugated or foam to the profile of the bottom go to Berry Marine Tanks (949) 722-7797 tell him where and what items you want in the tank (say fill return overflow sender unit). Get the tank back in 10 day or so put it in and foam or glass in the tanks in place and put a floor back on. If you want cut out the area where the tank was and just put it back in the same place. I have done more than a few Gas and Ballast with this guy and all come out great and I beat the shit out of them. If you want he will put dividers, so your gas will not move as much in the turns. The one I am doing now I think is 42 ga belly tank and is costing me $450 with all the bells and whistles and he is Certified. I take mine to the powder coater (Concept powder coating Justin 909 945 2991 Rancho Cucamonga) but you don't have to and you are done for $650 or so plus wood, little glass, and time. pm If I can help over the phone.. You should burn gas with your money not get raped.

 

[Quicksilver]

I saw the onsequential issue was touched on a few posts back, Also sorry to hear of the unfortuitous experience with your failing fuel tanks Probably adding "fuel to the fire" however just as important is the "syrup" like residue that can be a generated byproduct of the tank deterioration, we have done several of these (Jets and Vdrives) in all cases these boats had related issues in the fuel pumps lines filters and even the engine , A recent Campbell , when inspected had a thick black sticky coating inside the intake manifold, head ports and pistons that needed to be disassembled and cleaned/remediated Tom

example cylinder

Combustion chamber

Out with the old

New Tanks we installed

*FWIW including Tanks and Labor 4K up is realistic assuming no engine damage

What do you use to remove the fiberglass resin from the engine parts?

 

[Racey]

That is a crazy price....cut out the floor yourself make a corrugated or foam to the profile of the bottom go to Berry Marine Tanks (949) 722-7797 tell him where and what items you want in the tank (say fill return overflow sender unit). Get the tank back in 10 day or so put it in and foam or glass in the tanks in place and put a floor back on. If you want cut out the area where the tank was and just put it back in the same place. I have done more than a few Gas and Ballast with this guy and all come out great and I beat the shit out of them. If you want he will put dividers, so your gas will not move as much in the turns. The one I am doing now I think is 42 ga belly tank and is costing me $450 with all the bells and whistles and he is Certified. I take mine to the powder coater (Concept powder coating Justin 909 945 2991 Rancho Cucamonga) but you don't have to and you are done for $650 or so plus wood, little glass, and time. pm If I can help over the phone.. You should burn gas with your money not get raped.

I'm pretty sure needs two tanks, so about $1k in just the tanks. And then everything else is based on his ability to do the labor himself. At $100 an hour at a reputable shop, doing a full tank switch in a boat easily starts racking up man hours. Also he will lose a decent amount of fuel capacity going to a foamed in aluminum tank, i know this because i'm in the same boat with my Brummett. I considered putting aluminum tanks back in the side floors but it calcs out to several gallons of fuel capacity lost because of the foam gap all the way around the tank, and the ability of the aluminum tank to perfectly follow the contour of the bottom of the boat.

Not everyone has the tools, nor the ability to do things themselves. If the original poster does have the tools, and the ability, i would absolutely recommend doing it himself. But i think doing side tanks would be much easier, it also means he can then through bolt stuff through the floors in the future and not have to worry about tanks below the floor.

 

[CampbellCarl]

I'm pretty sure needs two tanks, so about $1k in just the tanks. And then everything else is based on his ability to do the labor himself. At $100 an hour at a reputable shop, doing a full tank switch in a boat easily starts racking up man hours. Also he will lose a decent amount of fuel capacity going to a foamed in aluminum tank, i know this because i'm in the same boat with my Brummett. I considered putting aluminum tanks back in the side floors but it calcs out to several gallons of fuel capacity lost because of the foam gap all the way around the tank, and the ability of the aluminum tank to perfectly follow the contour of the bottom of the boat.

Not everyone has the tools, nor the ability to do things themselves. If the original poster does have the tools, and the ability, i would absolutely recommend doing it himself. But i think doing side tanks would be much easier, it also means he can then through bolt stuff through the floors in the future and not have to worry about tanks below the floor.

Why worry about a couple of gallons...rumor is that those V-8 Johnrudes just sipped the fuel...

 

[530RL]

I'm pretty sure needs two tanks, so about $1k in just the tanks. And then everything else is based on his ability to do the labor himself. At $100 an hour at a reputable shop, doing a full tank switch in a boat easily starts racking up man hours. Also he will lose a decent amount of fuel capacity going to a foamed in aluminum tank, i know this because i'm in the same boat with my Brummett. I considered putting aluminum tanks back in the side floors but it calcs out to several gallons of fuel capacity lost because of the foam gap all the way around the tank, and the ability of the aluminum tank to perfectly follow the contour of the bottom of the boat.

Not everyone has the tools, nor the ability to do things themselves. If the original poster does have the tools, and the ability, i would absolutely recommend doing it himself. But i think doing side tanks would be much easier, it also means he can then through bolt stuff through the floors in the future and not have to worry about tanks below the floor.

Fifty bucks for a couple fittings, hundred bucks in aluminum and I will cut it using a cardboard layout. I'll bring a six pack of beer and you can have it welded in an hour or two.

My sand car tank was only 20 bucks in aluminum. What happened to DIY?

Easy Peasy

 

[hallett21]

Fifty bucks for a couple fittings, hundred bucks in aluminum and I will cut it using a cardboard layout. I'll bring a six pack of beer and you can have it welded in an hour or two.

My sand car tank was only 20 bucks in aluminum. What happened to DIY?

Easy Peasy

Not knocking your skills but wouldn't a boat gas tank need to be coast guard certified for insurance etc?

 

[Racey]

Not knocking your skills but wouldn't a boat gas tank need to be coast guard certified for insurance etc?

He was being a smart ass

 

[CampbellCarl]

He was being a smart ass

That was an easy callout...him bringing a sixer....I knew it was fraud...

 

[hallett21]

He was being a smart ass

[emoji106]🏻

Honestly 4k is a chunk of change but if you guys are saying imco charges 1-1.5k for the tank, 1-2 hours removing/replacing interior plus 4-8 hours in glassing and tank install. Plus misc parts and a profit for the company I can see 3-4k being fair. Everything is always cheaper doing it in your garage

 

[ltbaney1]

thank you all for your replies and ideas. As I sat in the boat last night drinking a beer wondering which way to go, I found a few other soft spots in the floor. So the plan for now is I'm going to tear out the WHOLE floor myself, cut the tanks out myself and probably just have the tanks built and installed by M&M Marine and then put the floor back in myself with all new wood and carpet. I've been wanting to re-carpet the damn thing anyway. My old man owns a finish carpentry company so I have full access to his shop for all the wood tools I don't have. looks like I'm going to busy the next few weekends. ill try to post up some pictures as I go, and probably ask some more questions.

 

[138]

thank you all for your replies and ideas. As I sat in the boat last night drinking a beer wondering which way to go, I found a few other soft spots in the floor. So the plan for now is I'm going to tear out the WHOLE floor myself, cut the tanks out myself and probably just have the tanks built and installed by M&M Marine and then put the floor back in myself with all new wood and carpet. I've been wanting to re-carpet the damn thing anyway. My old man owns a finish carpentry company so I have full access to his shop for all the wood tools I don't have. looks like I'm going to busy the next few weekends. ill try to post up some pictures as I go, and probably ask some more questions.

If your Dad has the wood tools you already have most of the skills you need to put the tank and floor back in but that is just my 2cents. Have fun with the tear down and if you have any questions ask you would be shocked what you can do your self.

 

[vdcruiser]

Please post some pictures, I have a 21 Howard and I might have to do this in the future.

 

[AQUA-HOLICS]

138,
I own a 1980 Howard Whaler 21' and at the end of last summer I found what looked like tar balls in my fuel. My tanks were failing and in need of replacing. I wanted to replace them in the original spots (out side of both stringers on the floor) but this was going to be more labor intensive and I would also lose a few gallons in capacity so I chose saddle tanks manufactured by IMCO. I'm very happy with my choice even though it was an expensive process. Hope this helps, Ray.

 

[nordictom]

thank you all for your replies and ideas. As I sat in the boat last night drinking a beer wondering which way to go, I found a few other soft spots in the floor. So the plan for now is I'm going to tear out the WHOLE floor myself, cut the tanks out myself and probably just have the tanks built and installed by M&M Marine and then put the floor back in myself with all new wood and carpet. I've been wanting to re-carpet the damn thing anyway. My old man owns a finish carpentry company so I have full access to his shop for all the wood tools I don't have. looks like I'm going to busy the next few weekends. ill try to post up some pictures as I go, and probably ask some more questions.

You really can't go wrong using Matt @ M&M. he does good work & is fair on the prices.

NT

 

[ltbaney1]

You really can't go wrong using Matt @ M&M. he does good work & is fair on the prices.

NT

This is my first dealing with Matt, but so far I'm very happy. I did use Wayne who builds trailers out of the same building a few months ago and was extremely happy. I was worried after Jon's custom marine closed, they did all the work I couldn't do myself and were always fair, but I'm very happy i found mat over at M&M. Best part is my office is just around the corner.

 

[Molassesmaker]

What did you end up going with? Floor or saddle?
I’ve been having little chunks of what I’m assuming is fiberglass in my filter and decided to pull the floor and have a look and sure enough the tanks have some soft spots. Would like to keep them in the floor cause I have inset cup holders and speakers in my side panels. Any info/pictures are appreciated as I will be taking on this task with a few buddy and a lot of cold ones.

 

[Ouderkirk]

So I brought my new to me 86 Howard whaler home to do the yearly service last week. I noticed the storage unit REEKED of gas when I opened the door. Didn't really think anything of as it has sealed in there since October, towed it back to HB and brought it over to M&M marine, he called a few hours later and asked if I could come by, he needed to talk to me. :eekThe boat has Fiberglass tanks in the floor, and they found gelled fuel in the bilge. Diagnoses rotted tanks from the ethanol:grumble: quotes from multiple places between 3 and 5 grand to cut out the floor remove the tanks, make new aluminum tanks and put it all back together. I've already pumped out the remaining fuel. But I'm looking at the boat thinking to myself I have plenty of room for 2 saddle tanks, if I want to go quick and dirty, or do I blow my river fund for this summer on redoing the floor having tanks made and installed. I can do the floor removal and re install but would still have to pay about 2 grand for tanks and having them foamed in. Sorry for the long post, but I can't decide which way to go. Thanks In advance for any opinions or options.

I fall in the category of "you can spend the money to do it right, or you can spend even more doing it over"

 

[Big B Hova]

I spent the money and put two new tanks in my eliminator 207.

They were fucked with ethanol and sitting many years.

Glad i did. Runs great now

 

[Flying_Lavey]

View attachment 816011 What did you end up going with? Floor or saddle?
I’ve been having little chunks of what I’m assuming is fiberglass in my filter and decided to pull the floor and have a look and sure enough the tanks have some soft spots. Would like to keep them in the floor cause I have inset cup holders and speakers in my side panels. Any info/pictures are appreciated as I will be taking on this task with a few buddy and a lot of cold ones.

I uncle replaced his Aluminum tanks in his Lavey with new Imcos last year. Wasn't as painful as he was expecting.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

 

[RiverDave]

View attachment 816011 What did you end up going with? Floor or saddle?
I’ve been having little chunks of what I’m assuming is fiberglass in my filter and decided to pull the floor and have a look and sure enough the tanks have some soft spots. Would like to keep them in the floor cause I have inset cup holders and speakers in my side panels. Any info/pictures are appreciated as I will be taking on this task with a few buddy and a lot of cold ones.

I would remove and put another belly tank in, in your case.. or be prepared to give up your insets..

 

[Waterjunky]

There is discussion of using foam to seat the tank. What do you use for foam? I am working on a cradle for a tank (not in a boat) but am concerned because I am sure at some point it will have accidental fuel contact. I don't want it to melt when something gets slopped. I have a tank that will work for my needs and don't want to spend $4-500 on another one that has mounts built in. Foam in the cradle to support the thin wall aluminum would work just fine.

 

[ltbaney1]

well since this got bumped up from the dead. i wound up cutting the floor and old tanks out myself, and then going with a 55 gallon belly tank. used berry sheet metal and he built the full aluminum tank in 4 days with baffles and certified for $650. i set the tank and used the old floor as a template for the new floor. the old floor came out like a jigsaw puzzle, about 8 different pieces, according to Howard, it was not uncommon to do it that way. the only thing i switched up is i went with 3/4 marine ply instead of 1/2. overall the work took about 3 weekends and was worth it.

 

[OGB]

So if you are going to do the work to remove the sub floors than you can do the work to replace the tanks yourself, its a lot easier than you think.
I have a 86 Howard whaler and I did mind last year. Call Brian at Tank IT in Havasu and he has the patterns for your tanks, his done a least a dozen of them. All you have to do is cut the top off of your old tanks and he will make you ones that will drop inside the old tank, than foam it in put the sub floor back and your done.

 

[Waterjunky]

than foam it in put the sub floor back and your done.

Great to hear, but what are you using for foam?

 

[Flying_Lavey]

There is discussion of using foam to seat the tank. What do you use for foam? I am working on a cradle for a tank (not in a boat) but am concerned because I am sure at some point it will have accidental fuel contact. I don't want it to melt when something gets slopped. I have a tank that will work for my needs and don't want to spend $4-500 on another one that has mounts built in. Foam in the cradle to support the thin wall aluminum would work just fine.

Great to hear, but what are you using for foam?

Don't foam it! All that really does is absorb and hold moisture. The foam is actually what caused my Uncle's Aluminum tanks to corrode and leak.

When my uncle was doing his, he was talking to IMCO about this very thing. He (I believe it was Fred? Not sure who the owner is but that's who he was talking to) said do not use foam. Use some rubber pads to isolate the tank from the hull and allow there to be a gap where moisture can drain out of.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

 

[pixrthis]

After you see the actual price of the tanks you might be surprised that the bid to do the job isn’t that high if your taking it someplace that does great work and gets it done in a timely manner.