RiverDave's 1st attempt.. LOL

[obnoxious001]

Well excuse me - we don't all have private docks to put our skis on at I was more overly thinking that RD will be a little unstable getting a race ski on to start with so no standing on the deck for a while. Even then, as you know it's a challenge not to strike the boat while sitting down and getting the ski over the side of the boat!




Really, really good example!!

I was at a friend's place yesterday helping him with his boat he's rebuilding. He's never driven a lightweight boat before, let alone raced, or towed skiers at race speeds and he was asking me if he should put his entry in for a race in October :thumbsdown I gently tried to tell him that his racing won't begin until 2010, after he finds skiers that will trust him enough...

Oz

More good points, although Dave was trying a Maha 360,, which is just a square back social ski, common for training over here, different lengths, perhaps 68-72" most of the time, although I have seen shorter.

He should probably be able to put it on in the water, but (as gently as possible) his size and lift jacket would make that difficult.

 

[SKIA36]

Hey Steve

Going by what I have been told, guess we should check with Gary Anderson or another medical doctor for confirmation. If you think about what happens, your head gets forced back, thus the vertibrae in the neck. I believe C1-C8 are all associated with "superior" or upper trunk injury.

" Injury or mild trauma to the cervical spine can cause a serious or life-threatening medical emergency (e.g. spinal cord injury or SCI, fracture). Pain, numbness, weakness, and tingling are symptoms that may develop when one or more spinal nerves are injured, irritated, or stretched. The cervical nerves control many bodily functions and sensory activities."

C1: Head and neck
C2: Head and neck
C3: Diaphragm
C4: Upper body muscles (e.g. Deltoids, Biceps)
C5: Wrist extensors
C6: Wrist extensors
C7: Triceps
C8: Hands

(PS,, in reading,, S1-S5 are in your pelvic region and fuse together after age 26)

Good info Barry! The s designation was an error.

I was in a car wreck that exploded the discs between c-3.4.5. The vertebrae are fused together from bone extracted from my hip. I have permanent nerve damage from a contused spinal cord in that region. The manifestations are dysthesia of the nerves in my arms and hands. The damage was limited to sensory perception. Function and strength were not affected.

Dead arm is similar to this. (I had a fall at Mead 75 miler and my right arm, back hand, was completely dead for 15 minutes. I pulled myself into the boat with 1 arm, sat on the gunnel and was really scared. The arm started to tingle and I regained feeling enough to finish. I went from 85# bicep curls to not being able to lift a 3#. It took 2 years to regain the strength)
I have scar tissue about the size of a walnut near my right rotator cuff that is on the neural pathway to my arm.

So I would guess the mechanics of the force that precipitates the Brachial Plexus is an upward rotation of the rear arm that detaches the nerve endings. I'll have to refresh my memory on the neural pathways.

 

[jody165]

Dave, based on this report I would modify my recommendations as follows:
1. As advised by others, wait til you can get up easily hands out front before trying wrapped starts. I thought we were past this point but lets step back and be safe.
2. Learn to put your ski on in the water. You are gonna have some falls play skiing and need to be able to get the ski back on and continue. Did you completely loosen those laces in the back of the binding? They should address this issue. A little dish soap works really well if needed.
3. Be patient when trying to get up, let the boat do the work, wait an extra couple seconds and then stand up slowly. They are probably right about you standing up too early and burying the tip. You are used to your wide body ski...
4. When you start wrapping, I don't recommend using a front handle. Play skiing involves more falls and just increases the statistical possibility of your arm getting caught in the bridle with bad results.
5. If you ever race wrapped, please use an arm restraint on your back arm. I can show you how to rig something up.

You're getting alot of good advise on this thread, you would be wise to follow most of it

 

[Retired Member]

Good info Barry! The s designation was an error.

I was in a car wreck that exploded the discs between c-3.4.5, and hit head head causing dain bramage (which I still haven't quite recovered from). The vertebrae are fused together from bone extracted from my hip. I have permanent nerve damage from a contused spinal cord in that region. The manifestations are dysthesia of the nerves in my arms and hands. The damage was limited to sensory perception. Function and strength were not affected.

Dead arm is similar to this. (I had a fall at Mead 75 miler and my right arm, back hand, was completely dead for 15 minutes. I pulled myself into the boat with 1 arm, sat on the gunnel and was really scared. The arm started to tingle and I regained feeling enough to finish. I went from 85# bicep curls to not being able to lift a 3#. It took 2 years to regain the strength)
I have scar tissue about the size of a walnut near my right rotator cuff that is on the neural pathway to my arm.

So I would guess the mechanics of the force that precipitates the Brachial Plexus is an upward rotation of the rear arm that detaches the nerve endings. I'll have to refresh my memory on the neural pathways.

Fixed!

 

[obnoxious001]

Fixed!

Yep, the problem is evident! lol

Good info Barry! The s designation was an error.

I was in a car wreck that exploded the discs between c-3.4.5. The vertebrae are fused together from bone extracted from my hip. I have permanent nerve damage from a contused spinal cord in that region. The manifestations are dysthesia of the nerves in my arms and hands. The damage was limited to sensory perception. Function and strength were not affected.

Dead arm is similar to this. (I had a fall at Mead 75 miler and my right arm, back hand, was completely dead for 15 minutes. I pulled myself into the boat with 1 arm, sat on the gunnel and was really scared. The arm started to tingle and I regained feeling enough to finish. I went from 85# bicep curls to not being able to lift a 3#. It took 2 years to regain the strength)
I have scar tissue about the size of a walnut near my right rotator cuff that is on the neural pathway to my arm.

So I would guess the mechanics of the force that precipitates the Brachial Plexus is an upward rotation of the rear arm that detaches the nerve endings. I'll have to refresh my memory on the neural pathways.

I got a "stinger" at Lake Pleasant one time, tried swimming to the boat and was going in a circle since only one arm was working. Talk about a scary deal not understanging what was going on. It seemed ok immediately, as I was able to climb in the boat and finish the race.

With stories like these we are telling people to go ski racing? It is something that can't be explained, you have to try it to feel it, but do need to exercise care!

 

[RiverDave]

I still don't understand the whole concept of why people want to hold the rope behind their back like they do.. I would think there would be a better way?

RD

 

[obnoxious001]

I still don't understand the whole concept of why people want to hold the rope behind their back like they do.. I would think there would be a better way?

RD

It evolved from a way of "resting" while fun skiing, I just posted on the other thread. It's easier on the back, less chance of getting pulled "over the front" since leverage is down closer to the ski, takes less upper body strength.

Guys have tried various other deals, with both hands in front, but don't forget, you need someway to be able to take up slack when going through bumps and rough water, easily done with a conventional wrap with the hand that is out front.

 

[Skyskier]

I still don't understand the whole concept of why people want to hold the rope behind their back like they do.. I would think there would be a better way?

RD

The theory was,.................by having your one hand behind the back, the "pull" of the boat was "pulling from the skiers mid section as opposed to "pulling" the skier from the "upper body" thereby putting more strain on the lower back. Myself, I could not get comfortable by NOT having the ability to "work" any slack" the rope in rough water, I just think you have more control with the hands out front :hmm

 

[River Lynchmob]

The theory was,.................by having your one hand behind the back, the "pull" of the boat was "pulling from the skiers mid section as opposed to "pulling" the skier from the "upper body" thereby putting more strain on the lower back. Myself, I could not get comfortable by NOT having the ability to "work" any slack" the rope in rough water, I just think you have more control with the hands out front :hmm

What's up with the electrical tape on the vest?

 

[jody165]

What's up with the electrical tape on the vest?

And how in the hell do you get your foot in the binding with a sock on :hmm

 

[River Lynchmob]

And whats with the Dolphin shorts?

 

[Skyskier]

What's up with the electrical tape on the vest?

That WAS one of 2 different style skiing vests, the other was a "pullover" type set up. Those were the weak spots , one good crash and they'd rip totaly apart at those points, if you didn't destroy it you MIGHT have gotten a season, maybe 2 out of them. I think they were called "Y-J" vests

 

[Riverbound]

RD if you are having trouble holding on to the handles there is or was a company making gloves called the clinchers they make a big difference

Roger

Those are what I Ski with (slalom)

 

[Skyskier]

And how in the hell do you get your foot in the binding with a sock on :hmm

Took me & my observer , me standing on the trailer him "contorting " the binders. The front one was a bitch. I think the year after this pic was taken, Roger Squier came up with the 1st "suicide" bindings. It was about a 3 inch wide strip of rubber that ran from behind, up & all the way around the ankle and "latched" back across the front of the foot.

 

[Skyskier]

And whats with the Dolphin shorts?

Shit man,......... those were "Katin's" my skinny little legs just didn't/don't fill 'em out

 

[Retired Member]

Those are what I Ski with (slalom)

When was the last time you skiied?

Oh, and I see why you couldn't get up on the cut HO Mag, it's like 52" long.

 

[Riverbound]

When was the last time you skiied?

Oh, and I see why you couldn't get up on the cut HO Mag, it's like 52" long.

On a ski....10+ years ago (I think)

I have wakeboarded and been onthe Sky ski much more recently (Thanksgiving)

Funny thing is the cut mag was the only ski I rode. except my Vert air that got lost(or stolen) :grumble: The mini mag was a fun ski. but my current talent level and additional weight are not a good match for the ski. Hence the reason I found that full size mag

 

[Riverbound]

When was the last time you skiied?

Oh, and I see why you couldn't get up on the cut HO Mag, it's like 52" long.

It was cut 2' shorter than normal.

 

[Retired Member]

It was cut 2' shorter than normal.

Looks like it was made for someone like Nord.

 

[River Lynchmob]

It was cut 2' shorter than normal.

If memory serves me correctly the Vert Air was 64" ?

 

[Riverbound]

If memory serves me correctly the Vert Air was 64" ?

I think thats right. we had a vert air that was cut to the same length as the mini mag. it was super fast but was a bitch to get up on (and that was 50lbs ago) that ski and my full size Vert air are now gone along with my old full size mag.

 

[Riverbound]

Looks like it was made for someone like Nord.

Are u saying u dont think u can get up on it?

 

[River Lynchmob]

I think thats right. we had a vert air that was cut to the same length as the mini mag. it was super fast but was a bitch to get up on (and that was 50lbs ago) that ski and my full size Vert air are now gone along with my old full size mag.

I thought the cut Mag was at my river house?

 

[Riverbound]

I thought the cut Mag was at my river house?

Dirt lot has the cut mag and my fullsize. I asked him to bring them home. Rieter put them in storage.

 

[Retired Member]

Are u saying u dont think u can get up on it?

I am saying, I don't know if I can get up on it, we already know you can't.

 

[obnoxious001]

If memory serves me correctly the Vert Air was 64" ?

Maybe 62",, they were pretty darn short!

Years ago when I used to go to Nacimiento a lot, my friend up there had a Vogue concave ski that he had snapped wake jumping. He sawed it off square and clean, mounted the front binding almost up to the tip, and had some rooster tail deal hanging off the back. The thing was maybe 2 1/2' long. I guess guys would get up with another ski and drop it and ski on this thing. I can't recall if he challenged me, or I just wanted to try it out,, but I got up on it deep water. I do remember my knuckles got beat up pretty good with the thing wobbling back and forth between my hands while I got up, and jumping the thing was a whole nother game. He is the same guy who had me out jumping over his ski rope,, wish I could find those photos somewhere.

 

[Retired Member]

Maybe 62",, they were pretty darn short!

Years ago when I used to go to Nacimiento a lot, my friend up there had a Vogue concave ski that he had snapped wake jumping. He sawed it off square and clean, mounted the front binding almost up to the tip, and had some rooster tail deal hanging off the back. The thing was maybe 2 1/2' long. I guess guys would get up with another ski and drop it and ski on this thing. I can't recall if he challenged me, or I just wanted to try it out,, but I got up on it deep water. I do remember my knuckles got beat up pretty good with the thing wobbling back and forth between my hands while I got up, and jumping the thing was a whole nother game. He is the same guy who had me out jumping over his ski rope,, wish I could find those photos somewhere.

Vert Air is a 64", I need to get mine back. I let someone borrow it, and now he thinks he owns it.

 

[obnoxious001]

Vert Air is a 64", I need to get mine back. I let someone borrow it, and now he thinks he owns it.

Ok, now you got me doing searches,, was pretty sure it was only 60-62", since my old HO Extreme was 66"

One just sold a couple of weeks ago on Ebay in England for 255 pounds, but no measurement in the description.

 

[SKIA36]

Fixed!

You haver to have severe drain bamage to be a speed skier, Like Dusty Schultz and Ron Tesarski always said, "The dumber they are the faster they ski..."

My Verticle Air is 64"

 

[obnoxious001]

My Verticle Air is 64"

I never owned one, only skied on Derek Oddo's a few times,, maybe on someone else's once or twice.

 

[Deleted Account]

They are small...

 

[Oz Dude]

I still don't understand the whole concept of why people want to hold the rope behind their back like they do.. I would think there would be a better way? RD

RD because I had only ever been a slalom skier when I was younger I didn't "get" wrapping up either. I also didn't ski with handles, only a slalom bar. If we were out mucking around and I wanted a rest, I would put the bar between my legs and snick it up under by butt. That way I could let go with my hands. One day a few years ago on the river my mate said "use the handles and wrap up". I couldn't see the value in it until I tried it. It took a ocuple of goes to get the handles behind me properly but wow what a difference. I think we ran about 15 miles and it was the easiest ski I've ever had in my life...

More good points, although Dave was trying a Maha 360,, which is just a square back social ski, common for training over here, different lengths, perhaps 68-72" most of the time, although I have seen shorter.

He should probably be able to put it on in the water, but (as gently as possible) his size and lift jacket would make that difficult.

I didn't realise it was a social ski with social bindings. I was picturing RD trying to put on a race ski...by himself...complete with undersized vest...out in the water. Not gonna happen!

You haver to have severe drain bamage to be a speed skier, Like Dusty Schultz and Ron Tesarski always said, "The dumber they are the faster they ski..."

The Aussie term is "Dopes on Ropes" hehe


Oh, and RD, someone made a comment about clincher gloves. IMO bad idea. They are ok to assist with hands out front skiing but you don't want to be wrapping up (when you get to that point) and have a restriction that stops you letting go of those back handles. They are actually banned from racing here in Oz for that reason. Heck, some guys put one handle through the other and lock it off when they want to rest their back hand MAJOR STUPIDITY...

I little Aussie innovation of late some of you guys who regularly race may not have seen is to stitch an additional piece of wetsuit material inside out around the back of the suit where the harness rests. The rubberised surface provides a greater degree of friction for the harness to hold with and so gives your back hand a bit better time. One of my guys recently had the piece added to his suit and he said it gave him probably 20 miles extra before his hand started to hurt.

Oz

 

[obnoxious001]

If we were out mucking around and I wanted a rest, I would put the bar between my legs and snick it up under by butt. Oz

Seems like that could do more damage than a wrap!

 

[Oz Dude]

Only if you fall off - then I'd become an Antoinette

Oz

 

[Riverbound]

I am saying, I don't know if I can get up on it, we already know you can't.

I think with a decent driver I could get up on it. By the time I was almost up on it from Matt driving I was so beat I couldnt hold on any more. Skiing wrapped up (cheating) would be much easier.

 

[racerden]

I think with a decent driver I could get up on it. By the time I was almost up on it from Matt driving I was so beat I couldnt hold on any more. Skiing wrapped up (cheating) would be much easier.

.
________
Ecigs123

 

[RiverDave]

Seems like that could do more damage than a wrap!

I was kinda thinking the same thing.. LOL

RD

 

[RiverDave]

Den what's with all the "." posts?

RD

 

[SKIA36]

RD - excellent "review" of Day 1. I had tears rolling down my cheeks with the eskimo comment

I can't believe Jody (or anyone else) didn't tell you about the lube. I'm picturing the "gut with a man behind it" in the undersized oxygen sucking vest with the race ski and no lube AND being in the water unassisted... Are you sure these guys are on your side??

You're not needing to be out in the middle of a waterway for the start of a race so stand where people can help. You've now seen how much easier that is (the image of everyone doing their thing while you stood there with the WTF look is also priceless). Put the ski on at the shore in a couple of inches of water (with help of course so you can be strapped in properly), then sloosh the ski a bit to get the slime out of the binding and get your feet snugged in. One guy under each arm will then have you up on the deck and then you can cruise out to clear water.

The "pull" is just gonna plain suck. It's a rail and it's got a long way to come up out of the water. Rather than extend your limbs and become a knuckle dragger, see if you can use a ski that would be half way between a race ski and your wide front ski you have - at least to start with. Like you said, you're not doing this to be a ski racer, rather to understand what "those" guys will be going through. Sometimes bush engineering can be very effective. The "inverted tape" trick was mentioned. Gloves plus sticky handles = RD having more chance to hold on.

As for the bridle - smart move also. It can wait until you're comfortable getting out and running. One step at a time. Barry has used the correct term "dead arm". Yes, several Aussie skiers have it in various forms. It's caused by nerve damage as the arm gets twisted in the socket. Depending on the leve of damage feeling can return to some degree. Darren Patterson of Wizard Wetsuits doesn't ski anymore becasue of Dead Arm - he has recovered mostly and is one of the more fortunate ones. You will find most of Darren's wetsuits have arm straps sewn into them for this very reason.

There was a female skier advertising for a run this season and noted she has a dead arm and would need a team that would take that into consideration. It doesn't stop you racing but it does change your life.

At the end of the day it's an extreme sport and the dangers are real. The risk is manageable but still there. 2 skiers were hurt on opposite sides of the globe this past weekend while racing and both were headed for the Worlds. It can happen to anyone at any level. RD you're not gonna go ripping into 90mph runs and more overly, this is a study exercise for you that will assist you in your venture into the sport. Please continue providing us with more laughs but also be careful :thumbsup

Now - where's the damned photos?!?

Oz

The OZ dope on a rope loading technique...

 

[SKIA36]

Kevin Boylan and Deano Henkle

 

[Skyskier]

Kevin Boylan and Deano Henkle

That looks to be a "cable skiway"? Back in the 60's they had one of those in Colton. ...................spent many a day there :thumbsup Where's this one at ?

 

[River Lynchmob]

That looks to be a "cable skiway"? Back in the 60's they had one of those in Colton. ...................spent many a day there :thumbsup Where's this one at ?

If those two are skiing on it it will be somewhere in the land down under

 

[SKIA36]

That looks to be a "cable skiway"? Back in the 60's they had one of those in Colton. ...................spent many a day there :thumbsup Where's this one at ?

Sydney, Austrailia

 

[JAA_CBA]

Speaking as someone who has a Brachial Plexus injury, here is a link that does a good job describing the injury.

http://www.ubpn.org/ubpnweb.nsf/web/what.html

As you can see, there are many different type of BP injuries, depending on what type you have, determines the severity. I have the worst, I avulsed all five of mine from the spinal cord but am so happy that all I did was loose the use of my arm and nothing else. I fell at Havasu in 1986.

Also, something that is not described much in that article but I do know, most BP injuries are neck injuries, not arm injuries. Your head goes to far one way, stretches the nerves, either from the spinal cord or externally and that causes the injury. The reason skiing wrapped up promotes this injury is that you get pulled into the water from your front hand, your head goes one direction and since one of your arms is already back, it helps stretch the nerves from your neck to your arm. This is also why so many people riding motorcycles get this injury, when they fall, their head runs into something, again, stretching the neck to far in one direction and damaging the nerves.

Not that people who want to get started in racing want to hear from a racing gimp, as I am a reminder that, yes this sport is dangerous. Just make sure you do everything you can to keep your head in a stable position, but remember, when you start getting over 80-85, the water starts getting really hard and stuff does break down at those speeds.

Dan

 

[Oz Dude]

The OZ dope on a rope loading technique...

HAHA - Yup, that's how y'all should be doin it - Aussie style

Kevin Boylan and Deano Henkle

Christ - that's the old Penrith Panthers Cable Ski... I went there once. I watched in great amusement as people got pulled on their heads straight off the dock. Worse still, fall off on the opposite side of the pond and have to walk all the way back...

You had to be ready for the corners - it was like having a whip AND the throttle jammed wide open on you all in one go. I remember having really sore triceps the next couple of days cause the pull on your arms is upward not straight out in front.

Oh, and if you tried to go round more than twice, the operator would release your cable when you were at the other end of the pond AND make you walk back with it or you wouldn't get another go.

That facility is now a "Water Golf" driving range - like everything, insurance killed it!

Great pics guys!

Oz

 

[Oz Dude]

Speaking as someone who has a Brachial Plexus injury, here is a link that does a good job describing the injury.

http://www.ubpn.org/ubpnweb.nsf/web/what.html

As you can see, there are many different type of BP injuries, depending on what type you have, determines the severity. I have the worst, I avulsed all five of mine from the spinal cord but am so happy that all I did was loose the use of my arm and nothing else. I fell at Havasu in 1986.

Also, something that is not described much in that article but I do know, most BP injuries are neck injuries, not arm injuries. Your head goes to far one way, stretches the nerves, either from the spinal cord or externally and that causes the injury. The reason skiing wrapped up promotes this injury is that you get pulled into the water from your front hand, your head goes one direction and since one of your arms is already back, it helps stretch the nerves from your neck to your arm. This is also why so many people riding motorcycles get this injury, when they fall, their head runs into something, again, stretching the neck to far in one direction and damaging the nerves.

Not that people who want to get started in racing want to hear from a racing gimp, as I am a reminder that, yes this sport is dangerous. Just make sure you do everything you can to keep your head in a stable position, but remember, when you start getting over 80-85, the water starts getting really hard and stuff does break down at those speeds.

Dan

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the info. It's a good, clear explanation. People should hear from folks like yourself cause there needs to be that constant safety reminder in everyone's head. Sorry to hear of your injuries. You've obviously dealt with it for a long time and are used to it but I can imagine you wish otherwise...

I was lucky, I fell hard as a teenager (and was only doing 70mph - it's how you fall not necessarily how fast you're going) but instead of neck or upper back, I tore apart the lower back and have 5 disc herniations that intrude into the anterior epidural space where the nerves live. When I say lucky, everything still works kinda, but a life of back pain and not being able to lift much due to the damage, as well as sciatica and "blowouts" from time to time that put me in bed for a couple of days still isn't fun.

Nobody likes to talk about gimps and injuries but once you got it you can't get rid of it so again, everyone, always remember to be safe...

Oz

 

[19.6 schiada]

One of the things that came out of people skiing wraped up was that you didn't need to work out your upper body as much and that didn't helpwhen you stepped off the ski

JAA CBA what region did you ski in and who did you ski for?

Nerve damage and spinal cord injuries were the reason I stoped racing. I had to many close calls, not putting enough time in the gym and skiing way to fast 20-24 mens class

I almost went back to racing 2 different times hard sport to get out of your blood but always found some thing else to do

 

[JAA_CBA]

One of the things that came out of people skiing wraped up was that you didn't need to work out your upper body as much and that didn't helpwhen you stepped off the ski

JAA CBA what region did you ski in and who did you ski for?

Nerve damage and spinal cord injuries were the reason I stoped racing. I had to many close calls, not putting enough time in the gym and skiing way to fast 20-24 mens class

I almost went back to racing 2 different times hard sport to get out of your blood but always found some thing else to do

I couldn't disagree more working out the upper body, in fact, I believe one of the things that kept me alive or from being a quadraplegic was that I played football and our coaches were fanatic about us weightlifting, especially strengthening our necks.

I was in Region 2, part of Arrowhead ski club. Mainly skied behind my Dad growing up, red 21 Hallett #327, I did a year behind Sam Maus in circles and one year behind Steve Scott in circles. I did a few years behind Ted Hoffmans Dad's boat in mrarthons but my last year for both circles and marathons I was behind Bill Blankenship, 19 Hallett, #300. I had Jack Smith as my observer in circles and Ted Hoffman was my marathon observer. I was in the Chris Meyer Memorial 35 miler at Havasu when I fell, Billy was driving with Teddy riding.

I observed for a few years after I got hurt, had a blast but stopped when college started demanding too much time. Still waterski as much as possible but keep is at a nice slow speed for jumping. After all these years, still don't think I have done anything that gives me the rush like ski racing did!

Dan

 

[SKIA36]

HAHA - Yup, that's how y'all should be doin it - Aussie style




Christ - that's the old Penrith Panthers Cable Ski... I went there once. I watched in great amusement as people got pulled on their heads straight off the dock. Worse still, fall off on the opposite side of the pond and have to walk all the way back...

You had to be ready for the corners - it was like having a whip AND the throttle jammed wide open on you all in one go. I remember having really sore triceps the next couple of days cause the pull on your arms is upward not straight out in front.

Oh, and if you tried to go round more than twice, the operator would release your cable when you were at the other end of the pond AND make you walk back with it or you wouldn't get another go.

That facility is now a "Water Golf" driving range - like everything, insurance killed it!

Great pics guys!

Oz

Ya gotta know the 2 c*nts skiing dont ya?

 

[Oz Dude]

Are you sure you ain't Aussie?? You know our "secret" word for mate

Oz