Race fuel

[TLAW719]

Can anyone in Havasu please tell me where the best places are to get race gas and the prices. Thanks.

 

[454Rocket]

Airport 4.70 last time I checked

 

[TLAW719]

Thanks. I'll have to check it out.

 

[RiverDave]

Not sure if the prices but terribles, and PArker oil carry high octane fuel.

 

[racinjason65]

Cambell Cove and Smiths Grocery store have 100 octane unleaded and Sundance Mobil has 110 leaded. Avgas isn't race gas.

 

[Go Big]

Sundance has 110.

 

[454Rocket]

Thanks. I'll have to check it out.

For anyone interested:

PM me for the gate code if you need it. Just go in, hang a right and you can use a credit card at the self-service island. Desert Skies will also fuel from their truck full service, but it's a few $ more.

 

[454Rocket]

Avgas isn't race gas.

Agreed. It is the cheapest thing around to provide 100 octane and eliminate ethanol and poor quality issues

 

[VoodooMedMan]

What octane do you need? Been a long time but my ski was raced out. I needed 100 octane. I'd fill half with 110 and half with 91 to get my 100. Actually 100.5. Only issue is I don't think the 110 is unleaded so if your boat needs unleaded it won't work. Ends up being cheaper than 100 from the pump because 100 has all the road taxes and 110 doesn't.

 

[jack14r]

Cambell Cove and Smiths Grocery store have 100 octane unleaded and Sundance Mobil has 110 leaded. Avgas isn't race gas.

Yes you are right it is controlled in a very strict way by the FAA as far as transportation,specific gravity,reid vapor pressure,lead content,etc.I have used av gas in vintage Nascar Winston Cup cars for 18 years and had 1 motor that was 14.9 to 1 compression ratio and the av gas made more horse power and torque than the VP 114 would make.Av gas has 2 grams per gallon of lead which is less than most racing fuels,this lower lead content is possible because the av gas is highly refined which is how the high octane is created,most racing fuels have large doses of lead added to raise the octane.The FAA controls this product from manufacturer to the pump,I can tell you that the product is the same from coast to coast and the parameters that the manufacturers must meet to comply are difficult.I have found that jetting is always right on as specific gravity is the same from batch to batch.

 

[TLAW719]

Thanks everyone. I'm sure prices are cheaper then here in crappy CA. My local place wants $13/gal in my can for 100 octane. My jet skis have been sitting since October. I use sta-bil but I know the octane still lowers so I just want to bring the octane rating back up.

 

[454Rocket]

Thanks everyone. I'm sure prices are cheaper then here in crappy CA. My local place wants $13/gal in my can for 100 octane. My jet skis have been sitting since October. I use sta-bil but I know the octane still lowers so I just want to bring the octane rating back up.

DAMN Gina!

 

[VoodooMedMan]

Thanks everyone. I'm sure prices are cheaper then here in crappy CA. My local place wants $13/gal in my can for 100 octane. My jet skis have been sitting since October. I use sta-bil but I know the octane still lowers so I just want to bring the octane rating back up.

Yep that's because of road taxes. But out of state (still road taxes but not Ca road taxes) or do the mix like I mentioned. Or do AvGas if you have your carb set for it.

 

[TLAW719]

DAMN Gina!

That's what I'm saying. There are two places here one in Hesperia and one in Victorville. Hesperia has VP but wants $13/ and victorville has a brand I've never heard of and want just under $9/.

Yep that's because of road taxes. But out of state (still road taxes but not Ca road taxes) or do the mix like I mentioned. Or do AvGas if you have your carb set for it.

Both skis are fuel injected but don't have cats. I think I'm going to put 5 gallons of AvGas in both then fill up the rest with 91.

 

[riverrat4lfe]

The arco in hesperia off 395 has 101 vp on the pump for 8.60 a gallon

 

[TLAW719]

The arco in hesperia off 395 has 101 vp on the pump for 8.60 a gallon

Thanks. I was wondering what the price was for them. I knew it would be expensive.

 

[VoodooMedMan]

That's what I'm saying. There are two places here one in Hesperia and one in Victorville. Hesperia has VP but wants $13/ and victorville has a brand I've never heard of and want just under $9/.



Both skis are fuel injected but don't have cats or O2 sensors. I think I'm going to put 5 gallons of AvGas in both then fill up the rest with 91.

What octane do you need? Isn't AvGas 100LL? That would get you to 95.5. I'm also not particularly sure about mixing AvGas and regular but I'm no chemist. Probably fine.

It's been years but when I used to do it then I first bought cans of 110 at Montclair Yamaha. Then there was a 76 in Ontario that sold it in bulk. Is just take and fill up my cans. 76 stopped making it though and they were trying to get approval at that station to sell Sunoco. Across the street now is a VP station though and I think they sell race gas. I never went though. Last I filled up in Havasu at Sundance. They have 110 at the pump. I'd do the half half there.

Sold the ski to my sister in law and her at the time douchebag husband. He blew up the motor. Tried to claim other stuff but I knew and eventually found out that he was just putting in 91. Told her that I told him it had high compression and needed 100 at the minimum or put on the stock head.

So yeah mix up and ace money but make damn sure you get high enough octane.

 

[jack14r]

100LL is 100 octane by aviation standards not automotive standards.I have discussed this with many engine builders and the thought is that it is between 108-114 depending on whom you talk to.

 

[TLAW719]

They're both stock engines and only need 91 but they have been sitting in my storage for 6 months. So I just want to use a little to help bring up the octane that has diminished. One tank is 14 gal the other is 16. Theyre both at half tank. So I'm thinking a few gallons of 100 will bring back up to 91 plus.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

If you have a performance engine , it's best to add race gas with lead the first time out . After sitting all winter , gas looses it's
octane especially if it has any ethanol in it . The first tank with leaded race gas , and 25- 30 gallons are good , will coat the valve stems
and valve seats with lead and continue to do so for the length of summer . Lead is a lubricant and cushion for valves against the seats .
Good stuff...

 

[racinjason65]

Yes you are right it is controlled in a very strict way by the FAA as far as transportation,specific gravity,reid vapor pressure,lead content,etc.I have used av gas in vintage Nascar Winston Cup cars for 18 years and had 1 motor that was 14.9 to 1 compression ratio and the av gas made more horse power and torque than the VP 114 would make.Av gas has 2 grams per gallon of lead which is less than most racing fuels,this lower lead content is possible because the av gas is highly refined which is how the high octane is created,most racing fuels have large doses of lead added to raise the octane.The FAA controls this product from manufacturer to the pump,I can tell you that the product is the same from coast to coast and the parameters that the manufacturers must meet to comply are difficult.I have found that jetting is always right on as specific gravity is the same from batch to batch.

Being an A&P Mechanic, and having built a lot of race motors I am very familiar with avgas and it's controls. However it is formulated to burn at altitude in much less dense air, as well as having a very slow burn rate for over square engines that run at very low RPM's (@3,000) and not very suitible for higher revving engines that require a faster burn. I don't have an issue adding some to pump gas to raise the octane, hovever I wouldn'trun a automotive or marine engine on it straight. I don't know anybody that races competitively that uses avgas, however my friend and Street Outlaw Record holder runs 6.88 @205 in the quarter with a small block and 275 radials and does so with proper racing fuel.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

100LL is 100 octane by aviation standards not automotive standards.I have discussed this with many engine builders and the thought is that it is between 108-114 depending on whom you talk to.

It's actually about 130 by the RON method.

100LL was formulated to replace the old 100/130 "green" aviation gasoline, which had a much higher TEL content.

It is required to have a lean octane rating of at least 100 to give adequate detonation protection in modern airplane engines.

The nice thing about AvGas is it has no alchohol and has a very long shelf life before it starts to degrade.

 

[pronstar]

It's actually about 130 by the RON method.

This makes finding the equivalent "pump gas" octane number tricky, because the pump octane Anti-Knock Index (AKI) number that we're familiar with, is an average of RON and MON (RON + MON /2).

Europe also just uses the RON number for automobile gas, and we know that 98 Octane in Europe is about 93 Octane in the US.

At any rate, I guess it should be sufficient to know that AV Gas is very high in octane. Probably somewhere around 120 AKI equivalent?

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Probably...

 

[Racey]

Ahhhh the old AV 100LL gas vs Race Gas debate. I know of a few Brummett Turbo motors that have spent their entire lives running nothing but 100LL, with absolutely no problems. AV gas is also extremely consistent in it's manufacturing, and shelf life. Brummett has done extensive testing between 100LL and Race Fuel over the years, the end consensus is basically that yes Race Fuel is capable of safely surviving a few pounds more boost and hence more power than 100LL, but that 100LL is a perfectly adequate fuel to run below going full Race Fuel setup. In this respect 100LL is basically an upper middle point between 91 and Race Fuel. There is nothing wrong with running 100LL in a big inch push rod V8 if it is setup and tuned for it, anyone telling you differently is drinking the kool-aid.

The low burn speed deal is the whole idea behind race gas as well. it allows higher cylinder pressure before detonation. same as race gas.
As for high altitude formulation, this has to do with boiling point of the fuel due to reduced air pressure, and lower boiling points at high altitude, not burn characteristics. You do not want your airplane to vapor lock during flight.

If your setup is designed for race gas then don't try to go run the shit out of it on 100LL, no different than you wouldn't run 93, 91, or 87 in it. But if you only need 100, then it will work fine, it will also work fine mixing with 91 if your setup was for 91 and you do not have catalytic converters.

Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...

My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.

Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.

In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.

The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.

AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.

AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.

I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.

Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.

Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.

You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.

The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.

AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.

Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.

AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.

Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.

Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.

Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.

I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.

Good Luck,
Steve Poole

 

[dread Pirate]

This should fuel some debate.

http://www.smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html

 

[SoCalZero]

I was told by C&J that I needed to run 100 octane and I asked if I could run av gas, he said "it don't give a shit". So is there a big difference between running 100 or 100LL?

 

[pronstar]

This should fuel some debate.

http://www.smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html

It's actually about 130 by the RON method.
100LL was formulated to replace the old 100/130 "green" aviation gasoline, which had a much higher TEL content.

Hmmm...the link in dread Pirate's post says AV gas is 100 RON, which would put it's AKI "pump gas" octane number around 94 or 95 :hmm

 

[dread Pirate]

Hmmm...the link in dread Pirate's post says AV gas is 100 RON, which would put it's AKI "pump gas" octane number around 94 or 95 :hmm

What I find most interesting is the variance between batches and the real #'s vs the advertised #s. VP Fuel is the only fuel I will run as you know exactly what you are getting. Others are all over the board.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

That's contrary to most everything I've ever read about avgas.

Here is the ATSM standard... http://www.aviation-fuel.com/pdfs/avgas100llspecsastmd910_2011.pdf

 

[pronstar]

That's contrary to most everything I've ever read about avgas.

Here is the ATSM standard... http://www.aviation-fuel.com/pdfs/avgas100llspecsastmd910_2011.pdf

I think I see the disparity.
Since it's aviation fuel, the specs you posted show a lean number (100 RON) and a rich number (130 RON).

Which begs the question:
What's the quantifiable definition of "rich" and "lean"?

 

[Sleek-Jet]

That, I can't tell you. Though the spec does say the MON is the same as the lean number.

We need a petroleum engineer, there has got to be one around here somewhere... LOL...

I was always under the impression the rich number was the RON, but not sure enough to bet money on it.

 

[jack14r]

I think that anyone selling race fuel has an attitude about av gas because it is a superior fuel for less money.I have heard all kind of BS about av gas being a dry fuel,high altitude fuel,low lead fuel,low octane fuel,etc.The reality is that anyone that has extensive time running a dyno with various fuels will tell you the truth about the various fuels,av gas is not for a pro mod but it is great for almost anything else as long as it has been tuned for that combination(just like all fuels).Like I stated earlier I use it in my Nextel Cup Vintage Evernham Dodge motors that make 855 HP and turn 9500 RPM and have used it in a variety of vintage motors for 18 years,but they are jetted on the dyno for av gas.

 

[Stainless]

We need a petroleum engineer,

There is/was an engineer or chemist on here, don't remember the screen name though.

 

[Don Johnson]

Being an A&P Mechanic, and having built a lot of race motors I am very familiar with avgas and it's controls. However it is formulated to burn at altitude in much less dense air, as well as having a very slow burn rate for over square engines that run at very low RPM's (@3,000) and not very suitible for higher revving engines that require a faster burn. I don't have an issue adding some to pump gas to raise the octane, hovever I wouldn'trun a automotive or marine engine on it straight. I don't know anybody that races competitively that uses avgas, however my friend and Street Outlaw Record holder runs 6.88 @205 in the quarter with a small block and 275 radials and does so with proper racing fuel.

Humm, been running straight av gas in my stuff forever and Teague whom builds my motors to include my recent 1,250 rebuilds has me running straight av gas with warranties. My old 1,200 motors came apart looking like new running 175 hours on av gas

FYI, Parker Oil in Havasu near Industrial has both Av Gas and non ethanol 91.

 

[dread Pirate]

It's all about what your motor is tuned to run on. I ran VP C-16 (118 advertised, 117 motor). If I swapped to Sunoco Stealth (118 advertised 110 motor) I could have problems. The gravity is the same on both however.

Sunoco variances are pretty high as well. 8% on the Stealth. Has to suck for the NHRA teams to tune with. We've already seen the Pro Stock teams struggle.

 

[DaveH]

the key to understanding what fuel you needs comes down to two key things.....burn rate and knock index.

knock index, or the fuels ability to resist uncontrolled burning, which creates knock, or detonation, is generally understood from a perspective of octane rating. Think about this, in you engine, you draw highly atomized (combustible) air and fuel into a cylinder, then compress it (making it even more volatile) and in a very high temperature environment (making it even more volatile). Yet, the fuel is required to NOT IGNITE until the spark even occurs. Think about how difficult that is to achieve. and yet happens hundreds of times per second. simply put, higher octane fuels resist, higher temperatures, higher cylinder pressure from either high compression or supercharging, which ultimately suppresses the uncontrolled burning of the fuel (referred to as pre-ignition) which causes engine destroying knock....again think about it...when an engine knocks because the fuel lights off too soon, what really happens is the early cylinder pressure from the burn, is trying to force the engine to rotate backwards. that is why the piston "rattles" against the cylinder wall as mechanically it is being forced upward but combustion is trying to force it down. a swift engine death results, with carnage directly relating to how severe the knock was.

burn rate, or "how quickly the fuel reaches peak combustion pressure" is very important. I heard an analogy a while ago comparing it to trees in a forest. if a fire starts, and the trees are spread far apart, it takes a while to spread. if the forest is dense and the trees packed close together, the fire spreads rapidly. This applies to internal combustion because as you increase cylinder pressure by either supercharging or higher compression ratio's......the "tightly packed" mixture (compressed) will burn much more rapidly than than a lower compression one. another way to think about it is would you rather smack the piston to force it down with a sledge hammer from a rapid "explosion" or, an even more linear pressure from a controlled burn rate. obviously the latter is better. Temperature is also a factor, the hotter the cylinder is the faster the fuel will burn. this is where the old school idea came from of running supercharged engines cold with open cooling....to keep cylinder temps down to assist with detonation control and rapid burning of the fuel....at the expense of being hard on engine clearances. another thing to consider is ignition timing can be used to comensate for fuels with less than desired burn rate. this is almost impossible to achieve with distributor based ignitions and the one of many reasons why modern engine have crank triggered multi-coil ignition systems where a high degree of timing accuracy and retard/advance strategies are employed. if your fuel burns fast....back some timing out of it....

I agree 100% with the person who pointed out avgas manufacturing is tightly controlled and you will get consistent fuel whereever you buy it. It does not go stale like pump does, that is another benefit. it is higher octane than pump, the argument of how high is for elsewhere. it contains lead which is has other benefits.

so the fuel you choose depends highly on your engine design. as Racey has pointed out....engine builders are running avgas with great success, and i run it in many projects I work on. i recommend it for almost anything that will sit for long periods, at the very least so as not to go stale and contaminate the fuel system as our modern pump gas does.

comparing an aircraft engine to a high performance engine is apples to oranges. air cooled aircraft engine, while low compression, low power given a calculation of horsepower per cubic inch, and operate in an entirely different environment. the need for the high octane fuel is different as some have pointed out. but that does not mean the same fuel doesnt work wonders in high performance engine...especially considering how inexpensive it is compared to traditional race gas and the benefits it offers.

 

[Racey]

I think I see the disparity.
Since it's aviation fuel, the specs you posted show a lean number (100 RON) and a rich number (130 RON).

Which begs the question:
What's the quantifiable definition of "rich" and "lean"?

All the times i've flown in light aircraft "lean" was when it knocked and "rich" was when the rpm falls off

It would be interesting to know what the actual Lambda was though.

 

[Hammer]

Humm, been running straight av gas in my stuff forever and Teague whom builds my motors to include my recent 1,250 rebuilds has me running straight av gas with warranties. My old 1,200 motors came apart looking like new running 175 hours on av gas

FYI, Parker Oil in Havasu near Industrial has both Av Gas and non ethanol 91.

Is AV cheaper at Parker oil or the airport?

 

[Kylemenz1]

Is AV cheaper at Parker oil or the airport?

It's cheaper at the Parker airport [emoji2][emoji106]

 

[Hammer]

It's cheaper at the Parker airport [emoji2][emoji106]

Lol. I'm in Havasu it sounded like there was a Parker oil In havasu? I was going to make one stop for fuel.

 

[Stainless]

Lol. I'm in Havasu it sounded like there was a Parker oil In havasu? I was going to make one stop for fuel.

There is one, it's diagonal from Lakeland Marine. The wife of Lakeland Marine owns Parker Oil as I was told.

 

[Bobby V]

Lol. I'm in Havasu it sounded like there was a Parker oil In havasu? I was going to make one stop for fuel.

Here you go.

http://www.parkeroilproducts.com/#!contact/c17jp

 

[Hammer]

4.90 Gal @ the airport for AV. 4.70 a gal if you pump it yourself. I think it was 5.00 a gal @ Parker oil. Regardless you can fill up at either location 24/7 [emoji106]

 

[headshothills]

I quite worrying about it, the octane, race fuel, av gas, and switched to Boostane... Havent had an issue with it yet... A lot easier to control octane by adding ounces than gallons to get the right ratio...

topped off the boat at Costco, 18 gallons each side, used the Boostane Calc to bring 91 to 98 and added 32ounces.. done!!

 

[Hammer]

I quite worrying about it, the octane, race fuel, av gas, and switched to Boostane... Havent had an issue with it yet... A lot easier to control octane by adding ounces than gallons to get the right ratio...

topped off the boat at Costco, 18 gallons each side, used the Boostane Calc to bring 91 to 98 and added 32ounces.. done!!

What is that?

 

[headshothills]

What is that?

http://www.boostane.com

[video=youtube;XWAJBZg7M2I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWAJBZg7M2I[/video]

[video=youtube;l-WmsURxC18]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-WmsURxC18[/video]