Question for the outboard guys

[Warlock1]

Boat is currently set up for max speed with cleavers. Getting on plane is work so I would like to try a different set up. Maybe dropping the drives a bit (manual jack plates) and some round blade props. It is currently running 14.5x26 so what size would work?

 

[HavaToon]

Try a set of Bravo 1's XS or OC they will plane a lot better and should not loose to much on the top end. Vent holes will be your friend!

I have a set of 26p Hydromotive P5x's with dual vent holes that I had slightly worked for my Nordic with twin 300xs, sold the boat and kept them. They worked a lot better than the B1's 26p XS in all aspects.

Hydromotive P5X 26P RH & LH

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...share_tid=155787&share_fid=10383&share_type=t

 

[HavaToon]

I also have a set of brand new in box Mercury Flo-Torq SSR HD hubs that I'd sell for $250, paid $275.

http://bblades.com/shop/hub-kits/mercury-hub-kits/mercury-flo-torq-ssr-hd/

 

[Warlock1]

Wiz, let me do some asking around next week and I'll let you know. I am giving up about a hundred HP with my engines. Anyway we can do a test run with them?

 

[HavaToon]

Wiz, let me do some asking around next week and I'll let you know. I am giving up about a hundred HP with my engines. Anyway we can do a test run with them?

I have no problem letting you test them, I just want to go for a ride in your sweet new boat. I so wanted to buy that Cougar, just wasn't in the budget as a second boat.

 

[Doc]

Are you using the tabs? I never had a issues getting on plane with that boat. I had a set of bblades don't know if you got them with the boat or not but those worked even faster to plane.

 

[HavaToon]

Are you using the tabs? I never had a issues getting on plane with that boat. I had a set of bblades don't know if you got them with the boat or not but those worked even faster to plane.

Good point about the tabs. I never had tabs so I had to rely on prop to plane. Trim all the way down on the tabs and OB's, break the props loose and run the RPM's up to about 4-5k once they start to bite role back on the throttles and you should hop on plane.

I tested almost all Mercury props, 3-4 blades, over-hub and through-hub exhaust, no vent holes to single and then double. Bravos were the best all around prop until I tried the Hydromotive P5X.

BBlades Blaster is another great prop option. They also have there own version of a Bravo. I tried both, I liked the blaster but it was slower to plane than bravos and there 'bravo' version didn't work for me at all.

 

[236eaglexp]

Just make sure you aren't using tabs when going faster than around 25 mph. Joe at Havasu hot laps was going to make a setup so we could play with motor height quickly out on the water, to find the best setup for Havasu/needles. We just never found the time to get together.Give him a call, he's great to work with, and knows the boat

 

[Warlock1]

I have no problem letting you test them, I just want to go for a ride in your sweet new boat. I so wanted to buy that Cougar, just wasn't in the budget as a second boat.

Sure thing, I want to get some more seat time in this boat before I do too much.

Are you using the tabs? I never had a issues getting on plane with that boat. I had a set of bblades don't know if you got them with the boat or not but those worked even faster to plane.

Yes, using the tabs but not sure if I am using them right if that makes sense. Not sure when to retract them, do I retract them before trimming the drives out, do I do that at the same time, etc.
It came with cleavers on so I am not sure. Also Doc are you the original builder or the second owner or a tuner? I'm trying to figure out the history of owners and pick their brains.

Just make sure you aren't using tabs when going faster than around 25 mph. Joe at Havasu hot laps was going to make a setup so we could play with motor height quickly out on the water, to find the best setup for Havasu/needles. We just never found the time to get together.Give him a call, he's great to work with, and knows the boat

I tried to get a hold of him last week to help me with a backflush question (sand in the intake) and I believe he was busy with the races coming up. I'm going to try and call him this week.

Still not sure about the foot throttle or the foot trim. Not sure I see the benefits of this system other than it has an old school feel to it. I really like the way the zero effort controls on my DCB felt. I've priced it out and while it is expensive it might be the first thing I do other than upgrading the stereo.

This is my first outboard boat and I think it is going to be a great learning experience especially if we decide to go bigger. I believe that with seat time things will work themselves out and I'll learn how to properly drive a boat like this.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Boat is currently set up for max speed with cleavers. Getting on plane is work so I would like to try a different set up. Maybe dropping the drives a bit (manual jack plates) and some round blade props. It is currently running 14.5x26 so what size would work?

I'm very interested in testing / buying the cleavers. Do you want to try my 28 choppers? I'm getting too much bow lift now, need to try cleavers to correct that.

I'll be out next weekend if you want to do some testing and set up work.

 

[HavaToon]

Here is the full build history on your boat.

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?245240-2012-23MTR-Build

Dale Rayzor is the original builder/owner.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

If your not used to an ob boat getting on plane is a much different process then a I/o where you ease into it. In the ob's they are gonna break loose and scream up to 5-6000 before they bite, many people will back off thinking it will hurt them, it won't, you have to scream the shit out of them while they slip and then when they hook back off.

 

[Warlock1]

If your not used to an ob boat getting on plane is a much different process then a I/o where you ease into it. In the ob's they are gonna break loose and scream up to 5-6000 before they bite, many people will back off thinking it will hurt them, it won't, you have to scream the shit out of them while they slip and then when they hook back off.

That's exactly what I was doing. I would get on it and when it sounded like the props broke loose I would back out of it like an I/O and then porpoise like crazy until I got back into it. I figured I was being too much of a vagina but didn't want to hurt the wife or the boat.

Boat seems to be very bow light as well so as I learn to drive this boat I believe I will add some ballast to the front as well to balance the boat.

 

[RCDave]

That's exactly what I was doing. I would get on it and when it sounded like the props broke loose I would back out of it like an I/O and then porpoise like crazy until I got back into it. I figured I was being too much of a vagina but didn't want to hurt the wife or the boat.

Boat seems to be very bow light as well so as I learn to drive this boat I believe I will add some ballast to the front as well to balance the boat.

Once you get used to the props spinning on take off and what trim levels to run, I think that light feel of the bow will reduce.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

That's exactly what I was doing. I would get on it and when it sounded like the props broke loose I would back out of it like an I/O and then porpoise like crazy until I got back into it. I figured I was being too much of a vagina but didn't want to hurt the wife or the boat.

Boat seems to be very bow light as well so as I learn to drive this boat I believe I will add some ballast to the front as well to balance the boat.

Light bow feel is what you want, you'll get used to it and then embrace the feeling as pleasurable.

 

[Warlock1]

Hopefully you are right. With the little seat time that I have the bow seems to want to fly when crossing waves which leads me to that conclusion. When I am more comfortable with the boat and feel comfortable going faster that may level it out but right now it just seems Stern heavy.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Hopefully you are right. With the little seat time that I have the bow seems to want to fly when crossing waves which leads me to that conclusion. When I am more comfortable with the boat and feel comfortable going faster that may level it out but right now it just seems Stern heavy.

Remember, outboards center of gravity is MUCH further back in the boat. If you've never driven or been in a fast outboard tunnel, it'll be a whole new feeling.

Another thing to keep in mind when you are thinking about ballast and changing set-up, you aren't the first owner and this boat has a fairly well documented life, if it wasn't a problem before, it likely isn't an issue now other than virgin seat time.

 

[Doc]

Sounds like seat time then. Just as people said hit the throttles props will break loose then rpm will go up, after that you feel them start to bite rpm will go down as well as bow.

I bought it off of Dale who built the boat then sold it.

In regards to the tabs it does shave a few seconds off of getting up to plane but honestly I only used them when the boat was heavy and even then didn't really need them just helped out. Careful though make sure tabs are up when you are running though, they will drag the ass and force the bow down which you don't want past 25-35 or when accelerating.

Pm me if you got any more questions.

 

[Doc]

Remember, outboards center of gravity is MUCH further back in the boat. If you've never driven or been in a fast outboard tunnel, it'll be a whole new feeling.

Another thing to keep in mind when you are thinking about ballast and changing set-up, you aren't the first owner and this boat has a fairly well documented life, if it wasn't a problem before, it likely isn't an issue now other than virgin seat time.

Correct, boat is setup good and I wouldn't make any changes to motor setup to be honest. Dale did a lot of testing that I had planned on doing so he saved me a lot of time since he gave me the answers I was looking for. Motors have been raised/lowered spun out and in so it's safe to say it's setup right at this point.

 

[RCDave]

I came out of deep v 25' i/o to a cougar 22 mtr (single 300xs) It was an adjustment. The way trim is used, take off, turning, approach to rough water, is different.

When planing I go to wot. As the props start to bite, I back off the throttle. The bow comes down, than back on the gas. She rips once the prop bites.

I was used to using a lot of negative trim in the rough with a v hull. Throttle in an o/b seems more effective. Throttle coupled with slight negative trim seems to work best. Especially if the hull is packing air. Keeps the bow down. If you have tabs, it probably best to run them neutral when running at speed.

When running in really rough, I trim down and blip the throttle to keep the bow down. As the bow lifts, throttle brings it back down. In general anyway

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

If you want to try my 28 three blade choppers let me know. I would like to try your cleavers. Choppers are going to give you even more bow lift though, but easier to get out of the hole.

 

[Warlock1]

Thanks guys I appreciate the insight. I'm listening and digesting everything.

So one of the conditions that makes me think the boat is not balanced is when going over wakes the bow wants to head towards the sky and comes down ass first which sets the attitude of the boat all wrong for the subsequent wakes. In my inexperienced opinion this isn't right. Wouldn't that depend on speed, meaning at slow speed on plane I could see that happening but as the speed increased you float or fly in a neutral position (or maybe just a slight bow up)over the waves?

 

[Ouderkirk]

My first thing to recommend is a CMC electric transom jack. It's worth every penny.

http://www.cmcmarineproducts.com/pr...ic-Plates/CMC-High-Speed-Power-Lift-Hydraulic

Last I looked they were about $800.

It will give you the ability to lift/lower on the fly. You can put on a big wheel, and then "bump" the height up to get every ounce of speed out of it.

I had one on a Seebold Eagle 21V and a 225 stock Evinrude. The thing did 75mph on a 25P OMC Raker at 6000 RPM.

The Seebold was a real POS boat in terms of quality, but it was fast.

 

[HavaToon]

Thanks guys I appreciate the insight. I'm listening and digesting everything.

So one of the conditions that makes me think the boat is not balanced is when going over wakes the bow wants to head towards the sky and comes down ass first which sets the attitude of the boat all wrong for the subsequent wakes. In my inexperienced opinion this isn't right. Wouldn't that depend on speed, meaning at slow speed on plane I could see that happening but as the speed increased you float or fly in a neutral position (or maybe just a slight bow up)over the waves?

OB tunnels will give you that feeling especially with twins. It is something you will get used to. You may be over trimming a little, a good rule of thumb is the rooster tail should only be about as high as the motors or just slightly above. Since you are running 3 blade props you have much less blade surface in the water which creates speed but also loss of control. I'd try 4 blades, BBlades Blaster or Bravos will give you a more in control feel.

I noticed a huge difference in my Nordic going from Bravo's to P5X's. The extra blade created a much more in control feeling, putting the boat on rails as soon as it packed air.

As previous owners have mentioned the setup should be perfect and I would NOT touch a thing. Dale, Joe (DBR) and the others that built/set this boat up know what they are doing. If anything I would suggest contacting Joe at DBR and get his suggestion on props otherwise try as many as you can from fellow boaters. That and with seat time you will get to know the boat and what it likes and doesn't like. When I went from an I/O to OB's it was an adjustment for the better part of the first season. After that I felt really comfortable with the boat and could adjust it for any water conditions.

 

[RCDave]

I have a question for the O/B guru's regarding the benefit of tabs, if any. I do not have tabs on my Cougar 22MTR. I've seen a few pictures of this hull with tabs. Mostly fixed tunnel tabs.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

I have a question for the O/B guru's regarding the benefit of tabs, if any. I do not have tabs on my Cougar 22MTR. I've seen a few pictures of this hull with tabs. Mostly fixed tunnel tabs.

The fixed tabs are really just for getting on plate and are typically considered cavitation plates and installed over the tunnels so they are out of the water and not affecting the ride once on plane. The benefit of trim tabs (located on the sponsons) is the ability to adjust the attitude as well as assist the boat to stay on plans at a slower speed. Great for when towing.

 

[RCDave]

Thanks FL. Do you think they would have any benefit running at speed in rough conditions? Seems like if a tunnel is packing air running the tabs down could cause handling problems

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Thanks FL. Do you think they would have any benefit running at speed in rough conditions? Seems like if a tunnel is packing air running the tabs down could cause handling problems

That would probably be better answered by someone with more tunnel experience. I'd imagine if you're trying get to get on top of the slop, you'd want the tabs up to reduce drag and increase speed and lift.

 

[HavaToon]

I have a question for the O/B guru's regarding the benefit of tabs, if any. I do not have tabs on my Cougar 22MTR. I've seen a few pictures of this hull with tabs. Mostly fixed tunnel tabs.

So here is my understanding.

Adjustable sponson tabs are for planing and to help with staying on plane at slow speeds like needed for water sports. Unless you have kids and need them for this purpose I wouldn't do them.

Tunnel tabs: there are two kinds, fixed and adjustable. The fixed kind are generally used to help correct hull issues like hop. They also can help increase the ability to pack air. Adjustable tunnel tabs are generally used to help big heavy tunnels with high X-dimensions get on plane. Once on plane they are usually put in the full up position and do nothing. Some people use them to help pack more air usually in flat calm water but this can be dangerous.

For your boat unless you are experiencing poor planing, hop or other poor handling I wouldn't recommend going down that path.

 

[RCDave]

The boat has not issues rolling over. It takes a little longer with full tanks or more people but that seems normal.

Sometimes I get a bit of bow rise when crossing or running over larger swell or a boat wake, (at faster speeds 45-70 mph and neutral trim). But think this is more related to the limitations related to the length of hull than anything else. I doubt tabs would be appropriate under these conditions

 

[Flying_Lavey]

The boat has not issues rolling over. It takes a little longer with full tanks or more people but that seems normal.

Sometimes I get a bit of bow rise when crossing or running over larger swell or a boat wake, (at faster speeds 45-70 mph and neutral trim). But think this is more related to the limitations related to the length of hull than anything else. I doubt tabs would be appropriate under these conditions

Is that your 22 with a shit ton of setback on it in the Domin8tor build thread?

 

[RCDave]

Is that your 22 with a shit ton of setback on it in the Domin8tor build thread?

Yes

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Yes

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that boat likely was not originally set-up with a 300xs and a jackplate and was repowered and a jackplate added. If that's the case, it would make the bow MUCH lighter than it originally was due to the motor being a good bit heavier and it being pushed back an additional 6" or so. I'd love to see where your motor is trimmed with running flat out. If you're boat has a pretty aggressive attack angle and your motor is trimmed to where the prop shaft is parallel to the bottom of the boat, it's a safe bet your bow is too light.

It's all about balance. Balancing the lifting forces vs the weight and CG.

 

[Ibeplumbing]

My buddy has a warlock 25 ft cat with twin 300's and cleavers. Couldn't get on plane for nothing, took them to Hill, had them reworked, night and day difference. Might be worth a shot

 

[RCDave]

The setback bracket and bobs hyd. Jack plate were installed at the cougar factory in BC when the boat was new. The boat had a 300x on it that the seller kept. So I had a new 300xs installed.

The boat doesn't feel bow light.

 

[RCDave]

.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

The setback bracket and bobs hyd. Jack plate were installed at the cougar factory in BC when the boat was new. The boat had a 300x on it that the seller kept. So I had a new 300xs installed.

The boat doesn't feel bow light.

.

Maybe not. Maybe I should have stayed off the limb. Lol! I've just seen it happen before so it was a safe guess.

 

[Warlock1]

We should get all of the O/B together and have a test and tune one day and for me a little driver training

 

[HavaToon]

We should get all of the O/B together and have a test and tune one day and for me a little driver training

I'm in! Although I no longer have my Nordic, just a pontoon for now until I find the right 21 Daytona. I can bring a set of props, some knowledge and beer.

 

[RCDave]

Maybe not. Maybe I should have stayed off the limb. Lol! I've just seen it happen before so it was a safe guess.

The boat is probably set up aggressive to reach higher speeds. All that setback is probably a compromise at some levels.

 

[pwerwagn]

We should get all of the O/B together and have a test and tune one day and for me a little driver training

That would be fun!

Fwiw, my Carrera drives similar to what you describe. I mat the throttle, with the 34's on it will spin about 5400 until they bite. With the 32's I have to feather it off the limiter. They both "feel" like it takes forever to plane but next to other boats it's fine. Pulls up my wife on slalom no problem, she says it feels faster than my 20' tunnel.

It feels now light over waves as well, took me a few trips to get used to but now it feels normal. You'll get used to it. At a certain point mine is trim sensitive, more so than other boats I've driven. I think it has to do with setback/leverage, 2 props pushing, the bow having some air packed, etc.

You'll get used to it. ;-)

 

[Warlock1]

So an update on the driving of this boat. As others have said, I just mashed the throttle and let her eat which is just what she wanted to do. Bow up, props spinning and she just sets and takes off. Real easy to tell when she gets on the bubble. Moving along at speed, drives tucked, no change in throttle position and she suddenly accelerates...oh yeah :thumbsup

Had her up to 82 yesterday just trying to see how she likes to run. She has a lot left in the tank. Still not sure I like the foot throttle and the foot trim. That will probably go in favor of a set of Livorsi zero effort controls in new side pods.

Anyhow it'll be fun for some winter boating and we will see what happens at DS17

 

[RCDave]

Did you feel the transition when the tunnels start packing air? In my boat it feels like a two stroke coming into the power band.

 

[Warlock1]

Yep that is what she did...felt pretty awesome. It felt like a rubber band was holding it back that suddenly snapped...

 

[HavaToon]

So an update on the driving of this boat. As others have said, I just mashed the throttle and let her eat which is just what she wanted to do. Bow up, props spinning and she just sets and takes off. Real easy to tell when she gets on the bubble. Moving along at speed, drives tucked, no change in throttle position and she suddenly accelerates...oh yeah :thumbsup

Had her up to 82 yesterday just trying to see how she likes to run. She has a lot left in the tank. Still not sure I like the foot throttle and the foot trim. That will probably go in favor of a set of Livorsi zero effort controls in new side pods.

Anyhow it'll be fun for some winter boating and we will see what happens at DS17

Congrats! You're getting used to it and becoming an OB guy. There's quite a bit left speed wise with that boat. 100+mph should be no problem.

 

[Stainless]

So an update on the driving of this boat. As others have said, I just mashed the throttle and let her eat which is just what she wanted to do. Bow up, props spinning and she just sets and takes off. Real easy to tell when she gets on the bubble. Moving along at speed, drives tucked, no change in throttle position and she suddenly accelerates...oh yeah :thumbsup

Had her up to 82 yesterday just trying to see how she likes to run. She has a lot left in the tank. Still not sure I like the foot throttle and the foot trim. That will probably go in favor of a set of Livorsi zero effort controls in new side pods.

Anyhow it'll be fun for some winter boating and we will see what happens at DS17

W1, I think I remember Rayzor rigging your boat with In-Control Foot throttle and Hand shifter. Those are pretty coveted by OB guys and no longer made unless someone picked up the tooling after In-Control closed, just so you know what you got if you decide to sell them. Personally I would give it more time as I think you will come to like the foot throttle. I have a brand new in box set for twins I bought when I-C closed that I'm going to change out someday.

PS, I remember CP Performance was supposed to take over for I-C but not sure if they ever did.

 

[jones performance]

i have foot throttle and blinker style trim switches on my 21 daytona. i like this setup as it allows me to keep both hands on the wheel.

 

[454Rocket]

Boat is currently set up for max speed with cleavers. Getting on plane is work so I would like to try a different set up. Maybe dropping the drives a bit (manual jack plates) and some round blade props. It is currently running 14.5x26 so what size would work?

I have a set of RH and LH BBlade Blasters that are too small for my 300XS' with the DBR kit... it might be what you need. I bought them for hauling people around havasu in the summer but still too much RPM. 28 Pitch I think but I'll be in Havasu over Thanksgiving if you want to give them a try. I only put about 5-6 hours on them.

 

[Warlock1]

W1, I think I remember Rayzor rigging your boat with In-Control Foot throttle and Hand shifter. Those are pretty coveted by OB guys and no longer made unless someone picked up the tooling after In-Control closed, just so you know what you got if you decide to sell them. Personally I would give it more time as I think you will come to like the foot throttle. I have a brand new in box set for twins I bought when I-C closed that I'm going to change out someday.

PS, I remember CP Performance was supposed to take over for I-C but not sure if they ever did.

Appreciate the information. All the other boats I have had were hand controls so I tend to favor those, especially after having the ZE controls on the DCB. Made the boat so much nicer to drive. As more and more newer boats are built with the outboards and the hand controls I think it will become more of the norm. It's a pretty expensive endeavor to change over so it might take a while before I really decide to pull the trigger. I need to get a ride in that F26 with the twins on the back to see if I would like a set up like this.

 

[Warlock1]

i have foot throttle and blinker style trim switches on my 21 daytona. i like this setup as it allows me to keep both hands on the wheel.

I have PS on this boat so both hands aren't really necessary.